Water Baptism Discussion

I’ve decided to move all comments on the water baptism page to this thread here.

What do YOU think?

comments

About Michael Fackerell

The Christian faith is about Jesus. He came to save the lost. About Jesus Christ, Bible teaching, Testimonies, Salvation, Prayer, Faith, Networking.

Comments

  1. new creature says:

    Comment by Jerry
    “Also, in Acts 10:48 after Cornelius and the gentiles had been saved and baptized into the Holy Ghost Peter asked if anyone would forbid the gentiles to baptized in water. If it was a commandment or prerequisite to salvation he wouldn’t have asked this question. It wasn’t until the
    jews said it was alright that he commanded them to be baptized in water. ”

    Reply:
    Jesus often asked questions of people, even of His own disciples. Many of these questions He asked could only have one answer. Today we have the term ‘rhetorical question’ to describe such questions which can only have one answer. We could use many examples to illustrate rhetorical Qs.
    A question does not necessarily imply ignorance or unkowingness.
    Remember that Peter is the one who was sent by God, though some Jewish believers did go with him. He was the one to whom Cornelius was to listen and obey. The angel said to Cornelius “He will tell you what you must do.” (Acts 10:6) MUST DO!
    Cornelius tells his visitors his side of the story. He says “Now then, we are all present before God to hear all the things having been commanded you by God.” (Acts 10:33). It is plain that Cornelius and those of his house were more than willing to do everything without question that God commanded them to do through God’s chosen vessel, Peter.
    In being so determined it was as if done before God in the heart. Jesus said if we think evil in the heart, eg, adultery we have already committed the evil. This would be true of doing good as well. But this doing of good in the heart should not be interpreted as meaning we don’t actually have to do the good t hing if it is our power to do so.
    Cornelius and his household were totally submitted and needed only to be told. This was similar to the Roman Centurion who said to Jesus ‘just say the word and my servant will be healed.” (Matt.8:8)
    And just before we go on, may I refer to the repentant thief on the cross. Many use this instane to say that baptism is not necessary for salvation because the thief was ‘saved’ but didn’t get baptized. It seems reasonable enough on the surface. But when we examine this position we find it to be a very weak argument indeed.
    The repentant thief was fixed to a cross and was in the throes of death. He was being executed. As long as he was on the cross he could never have been baptized – immersed in water. The Roman soldiers would never have let him get down in order to get baptized.
    These things Jesus knew full well. And in His mercy and supreme justice He did not raise teh issue of water baptism with the man who was dying by His side. However, this repentant thief called Jesus – Lord, and recognized who He really was. By these plain facts this repentant man would have done anything that Jesus required of him if it were humanly possible. But Jesus did not put any expectations on him other than what he had already done. He had confessed his guilt and now was pleading to be remembered by Jesus when He came into His kingdom.
    When it is physically impossible for someone to ‘get baptized’ then Jesus does not impose that requirement on them. But if they can and they don’t when they should having been ‘commanded’ to do so, then that is another story.

    Cornelius. like the man who spoke to Jesus about his servant, was also a centurion. These chaps knew something about authority. And once they recognized authority, they were right into it..
    Peter is speaking in the authority of God – in the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit – God, was the One in charge of the meeting and according to the prophecy of Joel, the Holy Spirit fell on this Roman household.. Peter the vessel had to stand aside for a while while the Holy Spirit worked.
    But we must keep in mind that in this instance all those belonging to Cornelius had already obeyed from the heart even though they had not yet heard all that was to be commanded.

    So, Peter, now walking in true humility – meekness (fruit of the Holy Spirit) and not as he often did before Christ’s death and even before His ascension, he defers to his fellow believers from Judea and allows them to concur with him what he already knew.
    Not that he was asking for advice and was at a loss as what to do. Remember that he was the one who spoke on the day of pentecost to the crowd. It was there he commanded them by the Holy Spirit as to the things that they should do.

    The problem today which has already been stated at the beginning of this site, is that men – preachers, have watered down the words of Jesus and His apostles because they uphold a denominational doctrine rather than uphold the doctrine of God in Christ Jesus. As far as God is concerned it is a command. As far as most churches today are concerned it is an optional extra – if it suits your churches doctrine then do it, if ti doesn’t then don’t. Or, if it suits you as an individual do it, and if it doesn’t, don’t. God won’t mind. He understands. While we think like this we will miss the beauty and power of the gospel of Jesus Christ – which is the power of God unto salvation – to everyone who believes (it and does it), to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.

    May the Lord Jesus Himself help us all to grow into Him in all things.

  2. To claim that sprinkling, etc is NOT Baptism is totally unBiblical, and undermines the true characteristic – Faith. It is the symbolism and heart attitude that matters, not the procedure.

    The dunking hard-liners fail to admit that nowhere in the Bible are clear instructions given about Baptism – except to do it. The denominations that have variations in practise are NOT being unBiblical.

    In fact:
    1. Baptism was seen by the NT church in much the same way as circumcision was in the OT. Babies were circumcised, and then adults could either choose for themselves or rebel. Therefore, the covenant nature is allowed for in the Bible. Remember, much of the NT was written in the context of New Believers – there is little instruction or wisdom on how to deal with those raised in the knowledge of God. The “adult-only” crowd have no idea how to manage those like me who have always known the Lord. According to them I am not “really” saved.
    2. Baptism by immersion is still the preferred practise according to the Anglican prayer book. Sprinkling only happened because with the high child-mortality rates in the Middle ages it was pretty stupid to be dunking babies in mid-winter.
    3. Similarly, Baptising babies was seen in a covenantal sense as being necessary as recognising they were part of God’s family. Nothing in Scripture contradicts this.

    Much of the problem in the Church over this issue arises from people being dogmatic about interpretation – the Book does not say, “When you Baptise, do this…”. All of the relevant passages have to be interpreted, and ancient meanings are not always the same as modern, when it comes to translations of words.

    The biggest issue here is that it brings division to the body over the performance of a practise. Jesus gave very few specific instructions on HOW to do things. In His healing ministry, he was infinitely creative – he didn’t follow methods, but followed the plan of the Father in each circumstance. So we have at least 3 different methods used to heal the blind.

    God takes divisiveness VERY seriously. We have to find ways to work together to bring the Kingdom to the Lost, and telling people they’re “not really baptised”, because it was done when they were babies, undermines faith and brings division to the Body.

    It needs to stop. until and unless the Lord has spoken very clearly to you, actual revelation, we need to let this petty fussing die, and get on with the mission. Flavours of Christianity are quite acceptable – we do NOT have to all do the same thing.

    PauLD

    • Timothy Luke says:

      I agree with you that we get into pettiness and make stumbling blocks out of our theologies at times. I would like to challenge or discuss a couple of statements you made, however, in the process of making the main point that I agree with.

       

      "The dunking hard-liners fail to admit that nowhere in the Bible are clear instructions given about Baptism – except to do it."

      I do not consider myself to be a dunking hardliner, but when the word "baptizo"itself means, "to make fully wet" and the references to it include going down to a body of water and "coming out" of it, I have to wonder why you are taking a hard stance against people who draw the obvious conclusion from clearly written scripture? This statement seems disingenuous on your part, or your own understanding of scripture is quite limited. Why would you deride a part of the body of Christ in such a way?

      "telling people they're "not really baptised", because it was done when they were babies, undermines faith and brings division to the Body."

      What "faith" exactly is it undermining? If our faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ, we will do as He commands. "If you love me, keep my commandments." The question is not, "will it upset their faith?" it is "is there faith in the right place to begin with?"

      If a person's faith is in the right place, then we being in the right place, will not subvert it. If a person's faith is in a lie, then the lies should be pointed out.

      Personally, if someone is adament that their being baptized as an infant has saved them, I would encourage them to recommit themselves to the Lord as an adult and to affirm it is a decision of their heart before the Lord. As a baby, they did not act out the command to be baptized, it was acted out on them. Why not do of one's own free will, what God has asked them to do, once one is old enough to do it for themselves?

      I would let God judge their heart, but surely their heart will have something to say about whether they personally wish to 'inconvenience' themselves for just a moment in time by being baptized in the manner of our Lord and Savior. If I don't have time to die to myself in that small way, have I really died to myself in the first place? That is what baptism, spiritually, is all about.

    • lookinforacity says:

      Having been born into a Catholic family, I was baptized as a child.
      I left the Catholic Church when I was 22.
      I accepted Christ as my personal savior at 24.
      Then without any influence from others, at 26 the Holy Spirit lead me to the understanding, I needed to be baptized, I do not now, or did I then, look at the process as becoming (RE – Baptized), because I wasn’t reaffirming my belief in Christ, I was acknowledging my new life.
      I did not feel as though my baptism when I was a child, was truly a valid baptism, because I didn’t even know what was taking place, or why.
      Therefore as a sign of my new found faith in Christ, it was the next logical step in the progression of a life as a Christian, I became born again.

      I have found since that time, baptism is the opening of the door, to our Life in the Spirit, without baptism and our understanding of it in our lives, we can neither SEE nor ENTER the Kingdom of God, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus.
      The Catholic Church teaches nothing about becoming alive to the spirit, or walking in the spirit.

      I have attempted to explain, that solely by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, I came to the knowledge of how important baptism is, in the life of the believer. The fact I had been baptized as a child never entered into the equation, I never questioned whether or not I should, whether or not it would be the right thing to do, it became something that the Holy Spirit impressed upon my heart as something I NEEDED to do.
      Having never attended a baptism before it seemed perfectly logical that immersion would be the way baptism should be done. I would have felt strange as an adult being sprinkled, while a baby or very young child can be held.
      But that is a moot point as we all know, baptism is for the believer, and that would not include a baby, or very young child.
      So as I said before, Immersion is the most logical way for baptism to be accomplished, unless there isn’t a ready source of water available.
      Maybe it would be advisable for the person doing the baptizing, to teach just what the purpose of baptism accomplishes in a believers life, and the reason why immersion is used rather than sprinkling.
      We shouldn’t just get people saved, then throw them into the nearest lake, or stick their head under a hose.

      JIM

  3. Too often we think using much words will convince others. But the truth is the Holy Spirit must do the revealing and convincing. Christians can argue till they’re blue in the face about water baptism, but the bottom line is each much be convinced in his own heart/mind. If you feel led to get baptized after you get saved then by all means DO IT! But don’t listen to those who try to tell you that baptism is a thing of the past if you sense the Holy Spirit telling you otherwise.

    • onecross31 says:

      I got baptized because that’s what Jesus did. Did I have to? Probably not, but I wanted to because to me it was public profession among the believers that I was worshiping with, sort of saying ” This is who I am”

      • I’m glad you got baptised, however even a superficial understanding of baptism would never call it a ‘public profession’ and if you one day you decide to study the scriptures about its importance you will find out that it is essential for all believers to be baptised.

        After all how can can you ‘die’ to sin if you are not ‘buried’ with Christ and ‘raised’ to newness of life?

        Those who are not baptised are likened to a baby that is born but not washed. Would you be a friend of a person who walks around with afterbirth still hanging off them years after they were born, saying to themselves “I don’t think it is important to be washed?”

        Shalom,
        Chris

        • lookinforacity says:

          Hi Redbuck

          You say
          “After all how can can you ‘die’ to sin if you are not ‘buried’ with Christ and ‘raised’ to newness of life?”

          Therefore if we do ‘die’ to sin through baptism, and thereby gain newness of life, does this then also mean we will still sin?

          This afterbirth you speak of, what would it actually be, if it wasn’t washed away through baptism?

          Be Blessed
          JIM

          • Redbuck40 says:

            Sorry Jim,

            But I directing that comment at those who don’t believe one must be baptised.

        • Chris, 1. You have given no scriptural proof. I gave you the history and context of the scriptures on the subject and have reconciled the scriptures together.
          2. The only scripture you alluded to would be Romans 6:4. This is a spiritual baptism and just like physical circumcision doesn’t save you spiritually, physical water doesn’t grant you spiritual salvation. Dying to sin is found in Romans 6:10 When he died, There is no water in that scripture or an illusion.
          3. I know this is touchy for jews just like the abolishment of the law because they have the law forever. These scriptures can be reconciled according to the scriptures in their proper context and dispensations and covenants. I am not demeaning water baptism for jews or even Gentiles who want to baptize in water, but, by and large, according to the scriptural context and history is not a commandment. Spiritual baptism is a different thing because Jesus is the only name by which one can be saved.
          4. As far as your illustration; I’m sorry, but, it doesn’t hold water except, in your own context, not the bible.. Salvation is spiritual not physical.
          I have to go but, this is bible not a personal context or what has been taught by tradition. You can believe whatever and that is your prerogative.
          The best thing to do is to answer to the scriptures and their context that I gave. God bless! Jerry Kelso

      • Chris and anyone else, People misunderstand the time factor of these contexts.
        There were different baptisms that dealt with water and otherwise in the old testament according to Jewish rituals in the law. In Jesus days, there were some rituals that were not necessarily in the law that was put on the people by the leaders and then some rituals that were under the law that the leaders did legalistically.
        Matthew says that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. This was the righteousness of the law because he lived under the Mosaic Law. John said, He came to manifest himself to Israel. This was so, when Israel recognized him as the Messiah they would be eligible to go into the Kingdom of Heaven which was to be the millenial reign that the jews were promised to be the Head of all the Nations. Read Isaiah 2:2-4, Zechariah 14, etc. Luke said, he was 30 years of age which, was the Jewish age to go into service for God.
        The great commission in Matthew 28:19 is in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is never mentioned in the early church. This doesn’t necessarily mean anything. The Holy Spirit is the agent to put Jesus into the body at the moment of salvation and Jesus is the authority that recognizes the Father and the Holy Spirit because, Paul said, there is no other name by which we can be saved. This verse is basically talking about the spiritual baptism.
        1. Baptismal Regeneration- If it was a commandment or a prerequisite to salvation then, Paul
        would have sinned in the Corinthian Church. Paul said, he only baptized Crispus and Gaius and
        the Household of Stephanos and he could’nt remember anyone else he baptized and said Christ
        didn’t send him to baptize in water but, to preach the gospel.
        Also, in Acts 10:48 after Cornelius and the gentiles had been saved and baptized into the Holy Ghost Peter asked if anyone would forbid the gentiles to baptized in water. If it was a commandment or prerequisite to salvation he wouldn’t have asked this question. It wasn’t until the
        jews said it was alright that he commanded them to be baptized in water.

        In Acts 21, Paul was accused of not keeping the Mosaic Law. They wanted him to purify with 4 other jews and that he did. In verse 25, Paul reinterated that the Gentiles were not obligated to do this, which was water baptism. Purification laws concerns water baptism. So though I wouldn’t discourage any body from water baptism for a good conscience but, one must understand that
        every instance of baptism in water is a jewish ritual under the law. There is no account that I
        know of that a gentile baptizes other gentiles in water according to the new testament. Peter
        spoke to basically Jewish Christians that understood the water baptism typified salvation according to the death, burial, and resurrection which is a spiritual resurrection.
        2. One must remember that the new testament church was jewish the first 8-10 years until
        Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean. This means that the jews still basically in
        proselyting gentiles. Also,it means that the body of Christ of Jews and Gentiles in one body alike
        on the same level started at this time and not on the Day of Pentecost.

        I believe if you read Paul’s epistles to the gentiles, you will find that water baptism wasn’t
        significantly taught as a doctrine at all. Hebrews 6:1, is talking about old covenant doctrines. If
        those Hebrew christians went back into Judaism there was no salvation and they would be lost

        forever if they stayed there.
        People have to understand that Jesus 1st commission that dealt with the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to the Jews was not a message to the church. Matthew 10:6-7. Jesus had to
        fulfill the Mosaic Law, and he lived and taught the law. It wasn’t until the Jews rejected him as
        a nation that Jesus started telling his disciples about him dying and rising again and that the Holy
        Spirit would come when he left and that the gospel was his death, burial, and resurrection. Paul asserts the same truth in 1 Corinthians 15.
        The scriptural context and history points to water baptism as basically a Jewish ritual from under the Mosaic Law. The gentiles never had the Mosaic Law but, the Law for the Jews was forever. This doesn’t mean the mosaic law wasn’t abolished but, that is another subject.
        Feel free to water baptize for a good conscience if you’d like and if you mean it but, remember this; for anyone going to seed on this may end up like the Corinthians and become a vice which Paul didn’t like at all. As essential to salvation there is no scriptural basis. We are saved by grace through faith according to the revelation and message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ which is his finished work. As far as baptismal regeneration or even as a good concscience is because of the fact that they were baptizing in water such as the account of Philip and the eunuch then, they must recognize it was a Jewish ritual under the Mosaic law.
        Even though, Philip baptized the Eunuch, it was the Eunuch who was reading the old testament and Philip said he would baptize him and honor his request but, he first had to believe in Jesus.
        I will stop here. This is scriptural context and food for thought. People don’t need to be condemned about whether they do this or how they do it. The great commission is basically a spiritual baptism. The water baptism is due to the Jewish ritual of baptism which Paul said we were not obligated to do. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

        • lookingforhope2011 says:

          Im not even sure the users you are replying to get on this site much anymore

          • looking for hope, thanks. Obviously, I didn’t see the dates. lol. jerry kelso

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            Just didn’t want you wondering why you weren’t getting a response from the person you were questioning. We all dig up all subjects on here just sometimes the people who made the original post aren’t around much if at all.

    • Redbuck40 says:

      I thought it was more important to obey the teachings of Jesus!

      What did he say?

      I thought it was made pretty clear in Matthew 28:18-20
      Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

      Peter reafirming in Acts 2:38
      Phillip also in Acts 8:12 which led to Peter and John coming down to finish the job in Acts 8:15-17
      Phillip also followed the pattern in Acts 8:36-
      Peter further in Acts 10 asked the question “what is stopping these people from being baptised?”
      Paul in Acts 19:3- shows that all need to be baptised
      Romans 6:3 shows that it is the only way to die with Jesus (to sin)
      Finally in Galations 3:27 shows that it is only through baptism that we put on Christ.

      The final decision is yours: Do I obey the scripture (God’s commandments) or not?

      In Christ Chris

      • Chris, It is important to understand Jesus teachings in its proper perspective.
        Matthew 28:18-20: The great commission is in effect but, there is no where in the scriptures that they baptized in the formula; in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This doesn’t mean it is not true.
        There are three baptisms in the Book of Acts related to salvation.
        1. The baptism of John
        2. The baptism of the Lord Jesus. This is not the same as when they baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus such as Peter in Acts 10:48.
        3. The baptism in the Spirit
        a). The baptism of John was in Jesus day and under the age of the law and it was done in water
        b). The baptism of Jesus was the great commission because it deals with salvation according to the death, burial, and resurrection. This was after his death, burial, resurrection and ascension into heaven. This was and is a spiritual baptism, not physical.
        c). The Spirit baptism is when they they spoke in tongues. This is not to be confused with the Spirit in salvation. In salvation, the Spirit is the agent that puts Jesus in the body in the act of Salvation. This is what the one baptism is that Paul talks about. Jesus is the agent that puts the Spirit in the body which was what John said, He (John) baptized with water but, Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost.
        Phillip would have never baptized the eunuch if the eunuch wouldn’t have brought it up. Phillip said it was ok as long as he believed in Jesus Christ as the Son Of God. Before that, Phillip was explaining the scriptures according to Jesus.
        Peter in chapter 10 was talking to Cornelius and the gentiles. They had been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost. Verse 43; To him give all the prophets witness that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. This is the great commission. Jesus is the authority that recognizes the Father and the Spirit. This had nothing to do with water baptism. After this the Holy Ghost fell on them. When it came to water baptism Peter asked if it was alright before they were baptized in water.
        He wouldn’t have asked if it was mandatory.
        Paul was doing the purification laws in Acts 21 which dealt with water baptism but, he said the Gentiles were not obligated to do that, Acts 21:25. You have got to understand that the Jew were given the law forever but, the gentiles were never under the law. This is why water baptism has to do with Jewish ritual. That is not a bad thing or a wrong thing of that it violates the covenant or anything. The Jews are to be jews not gentiles, and gentiles are to be gentiles. We are not cultural jews and they are not cultural gentiles.
        One has to understand the proper context of the scriptures and set them side by side and reconcile them together in harmony because the bible cannot contradict itself.
        I don’t discourage people who want to be baptized in water as a sign of good conscience, but, it is not mandatory according to the scripture.
        The extremes of the water baptism is that plenty of people get baptized in water and think they are saved and continue to live like the devil.
        Another extreme is that some denominations are proud of how many are baptized each year in their church. This is the first thing they say and yet, many live carnal lives and think they are in the club. This is like the Israelites thought process in Ezekiel. They believed that since they were the children of the covenants and they were safe even if they sinned and didn’t have to confess their sins. And God said they were wrong.
        The final decision is yours: You are to obey the scriptures in its proper perspective and reconcile the scriptures together so they harmonize together.
        God Bless! Jerry Kelso

  4. Hi,I always loved God, but did not always obey. In early 2009 I began a 21 day fast. I wanted to grow closer to God and seek Him above anything else. I was baptized in water in one month later. I made a decision to come to Christ and be obedient to God’s ways. Then, shortly after I backslid and regretted my sin. I comfessed this sin, repented and ask God for forgiveness. It seemed like as soon as I made the decision to come to Chist, temptation began. I felt attacked! Then I commited the same sin once more. I felt so horrible and made a decision that I would never repeat that again. I once again confessed and asked God to please forgive me, but this time I asked for protection against temptation. And I have not repeated since. I try each day to fully commit to God. I am just wondering if should be baptized again. Are there certain things that should cause someone to choose to be baptized again?

    • I get the feeling that the Pentecostals and the Evangelicals have the
      same attitude and approach to Water Baptism ,
      as the Jews had to Circumcision.

      The Pentecostals and the Evangelicals cry ,” Water Baptism
      and no less !!!” as did the Jews , “Circumcision and no less”

      Shouldn’t Baptism be of the heart and not of the body ?
      (To wash clean the heart , …….and not the physical body)

      Gimme your thoughts , Saints.

      I think it is time a modern day Paul came along and sorted out the
      issue once and for all.

      Cheers

      Vikki

      • I’m not sure where the denominational aspect came into this, but I am seeking biblical answers to the question that I posted because I do not know. When I went through this, I was newly converted and now at this point committed to Christ. The question of re-baptism is on my mind and I am posting to gain understanding.

        • warrior daughter says:

          Water baptism does not save a person….It is to outward show of the inward cleansing and that you have had a change in your life..

          The born again experience is what saves a person…

          These are the 3 basic steps for a Christian
          1)…Be born-again
          2)..Be water baptized
          3)..Take communion whenever it is offered

          You have confessed your backslide/sin and this is what is important….

          I know of instances where people were re-baptized since they were babies or small children the first time and did not recognize sin….

          I do know of a instance of a elderly lady who was re-baptized because the first time she was a born again young women but several years later she backslide for many years…When she came back to Christ she asked to be re-baptized and I could see why this was a need in her life…

        • Blessings Nata-

          You write that you were baptized when you were “newly converted”, yet now you are committed”

          I would like to share on this point first. Substitute “journey” for “saved” or “converted”. Initially, you heard, you were excited and you took a trip to the “dock” to see the boat. Indeed you believed in the boat (as did many standing on the dock!). Yet you had yet to step on the boat. For whatever a person might believe “saved” or “converted” to be carries with it a deep commitment.

          At the point that we step into the boat, surely this is when we begin to exercise our faith in Christ as Savior- as Peter did when with his companions they drew up their boat and followed Jesus (Lk 5_11).

          Now, in contrast to your “first hearing and attending”, you know in your heart you are committed to the Lord. Praise the Lord, for now, you are experiencing what Scripture calls faith- for a first working of faith is “assurance of your Savior” and a compelling to unite with Him.

          Yet true faith is twofold matter- a spiritual assurance (which should be a spiritual leopard in your heart) mingled with a conviction to engage and join with Christ.

          When James talks about Faith with or without works (James 2), he is not only referring to our works of love towards others but pointing out that the true spiritual substance we refer to as faith is never placid, never at rest but rather always motivating us to experience Christ more deeply (yes and this often by sacrifice to and for the brothers and sisters).

          Wy are you asking about baptism? Because the Holy Spirit is convicting you! Very exciting stuff.

          Many believe that baptism is a ritual which we do out of obedience. This is not Christ’s witness to me for In Christ we experience spiritual realities, not types or symbols. Now, everything we engage in that is motivated by Faith carries with it a spiritual reality and this no less so, than water baptism.

          Originally you went through an empty ceremony , now with your faith flaring, you are under conviction to experience a deeper experience with Christ even his death and Crucifixion. if we die with Christ we have a part in His Cross or what proceeds from the Cross.

          Is it the water that does this? I think not- is it our faith? Faith in what? Faith requires a vehicle through which it is expressed, James is saying, you cannot love in abstract! You must allow your faith to be hitched to a vehicle of love- even putting food on that hungry brother’s table. In the matter of dying with Christ, we need a vehicle through which to express this spiritual imperative burning within i.e. to die with Christ. And Christ has appointed Water Baptism to this end.

          It is our faith in Christ (which now for you is warming up) that motivates us towards baptism! Baptism is a release and moves us to realize what Christ offers!

          Naaman (2Kings 5) carried various burdens and with these spiritual challenges, of these presumptuousness was his stumbling stone, not a deficiency of faith. If he had bathed in his rivers of his own choice would he have been healed and why not? The river Jordon was offered to him.

          It is possible that in a moment of great enthusiasm he might have declared to Gehazi Elisha’s servant “Your God is the Greatest , faith in Him alone is sufficient, I decline the river.” I assure you, that such a faith, though monumental in its “hope” would fail, quickly confirmed by a mirror!

          Nata, I say to you as Ananias said to Paul, “Why are you waiting?” (Acts 22: 16). If you are under conviction- do it and be blessed.

          with you- Peer.

        • onecross31 says:

          Dear Nata,
          I would first ask you to think about the first time that you were Baptized. Were you then truly saved? Did you fully know the presence of Jesus in your life? Baptism is an outward expression of an inward change of Heart. It (immersion baptism) signifies the death and burial of the “old you” and resurrection of the New You. The salvation experience is a personal one, I would advise you that it’s ok to be re-baptized if you indeed feel led to do so. If you weren’t truly converted when you were first baptized, if you didn’t really understand what you were doing, then would n”t you want to do it again now that you know the truth? I went for years thinking that I was a Christian before the Holy Spirit convicted me of my lost condition. I had no reservations about being re-baptized because I finally knew in my heart the security of being saved and born again. So there I was 6 years ago getting baptized all over again, not because I thought I need to for salvation but because I wanted to because I then truly understood what I was doing and why.

      • onecross31 says:

        I think that we believers spend tooo much time on the differences that we have and not enough time focusing on the really important things like the times that we are living in. Do you realize that at just any moment Jesus could return for the Church? Imagine how silly we will look if we are found arguing over differences in interpretation of doctrine. The most important thing is the Salvation of souls and the renewal of sinful hearts that don’t know the grace that was provided on the Cross. Vikki is right when she says the “washing of the heart” it’s the heart of humanity that has to first be cleansed. I don’t discourage baptism, but I don’t think it’s a requirement for entering the Kingdom. Example ” the thief’

        • onecross

          You say
          “I don’t discourage baptism, but”
          “I don’t think it’s a requirement for entering the Kingdom.”
          “Example the thief'”

          The following is what Jesus does think “IS” a requirement, for both Seeing, and Entering His Kingdom.

          Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
          Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

          Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

          Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

          Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

          Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
          Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

          Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

          Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
          Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
          Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
          Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

          Next

          Using your logic, when you use the THIEF for your example, as to why someone does not have to be baptized as a requirement, in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
          Notice in this following passage from Luke.

          Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
          Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
          Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
          Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
          Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

          This thief, even though he did say, “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.” he no where confessed, or asked for forgiveness of his sins.
          So as I said before, using your logic.
          Do you also believe, someone does not have to ask for forgiveness as a requirement to gain salvation?

          The thief, was nothing more than the exception to the rule, and not “the rule” for setting doctrine.

          Can we not understand, that this being a unique circumstance, and involving Jesus Himself, that it was an out of the ordinary event which took place? So Jesus, being God, took it upon Himself to extend to this thief, an extraordinary blessing.

          • onecross31 says:

            I was making reference to Baptism not salvation. I DO believe that we need to ask forgiveness for sin the point I was trying to make was simply that the act of baptism itself won’t block you from entering into His presence.

  5. Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
    Act 8:37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
    Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

    The Scripture makes it plain enough that the baptism that the Early apostolic Christians practiced involved WATER. “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

    Therefore Anne’s whole thesis that would make it all about “spiritual water” has no foundation in the practice of the first Christians of the Bible.

    • Ac 8. Why did you skip Ac 8:1-25? Were the Samaritans considered to be Jews? No, they were not, Jn 4:4-26. They were treated as non-Jews. As i stated before, the believing Jews had a problem with non-Jews at first and this is the first example we are given of the Gospel being taught to a number of non-Jews. Philip apparently physically baptized them. Were they saved? Absolutely not. Peter and John had to come since the Samaritans had not yet received the one and only saving Holy Spirit baptism. What did Peter and John do? Are Peter and John still around to do the same for everyone else? The Samaritans were not saved until God baptized them with His Holy Spirit baptism. Simon Magus is a perfect example, he was not saved even though he received that baptism from Philip. Neither is anyone saved today until God baptizes us, Jesus Christ the Son of God Himself, as John the Baptist clearly said He will do and must do, Mt 3; Mk 1; Lk 3; Jn 1. What is it about John’s teaching that you do not understand?

      Then Philip was sent to the eunuch, Ac 8:26-40. Who told him where to go, specifically? Who told him what to do, specifically? Was Philip told to physically baptize anyone? Whose idea was it? Where had the euuch just come from? Did he know about John’s baptism? If he didn’t know about Jesus Christ at all, then he most certainly did not know about John’s baptism. And Philip did not begin with John’s baptism either, they were discussing Isa 53. So, what baptism did the eunich ask to have? The one described in Scriptures such as Mt 23? Absolutely. Was he a non-Jew? Yes, he was. Then what happened when they were in the physical water? Philip vanished into thin air!!!! Tell me, michael, are the physical baptisms you had and have seen anything like this one where the baptizer just vanishes into thin air?! Why don’t you give me some examples where this has happened again? I would really like to know about them. And, then what? Did the eunuch look for Philip? What did he do? And, read Isa 53-56 and see what God has to say about such eunuchs. Was that eunuch really a “dry tree”?! Your carnal baptism has left you with a carnal mind that can never please God, Ro 8:5-9; 1Co 2.

      Read the first couple of verses of Isa 56 as well. I have told you people about this Righteousness from God. Have you kept all of my previous posts available or have you eliminated them because you cannot answer my simple questions? Are you able to answer those four most simple basic Gospel Truth questions i sent?

      And, where did Philip end up? Isn’t this where God sent Peter to declare the Gospel to Cornelius? I have already explained all of these Scriptures in my previous posts. Why don’t you hear? Read Jn 8:47. All true Christians receive our Words and Wisdom from the real Lord Jesus Christ who is our Teacher, Lk 21:15; Jn 6:45; Jn 15:1-17. At our real baptism from God, we receive Wisdom from God along with Righteousness, Holiness and Redemption from God, 1Co 1. No Wisdom from God also means no Redemption from God. So, have you tested yourself as we were all commanded to do?

      • I quote your own words: “No Wisdom from God also means no Redemption from God. So, have you tested yourself as we were all commanded to do?”

        The Bible says in Proverbs 11:30 “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who wins souls is wise.”

        Have all the people who YOU consider to be born again had the wisdom to WIN SOULS for the last 2000 years? Its been pretty pathetic if so. Honestly, how many people believe like you do? Very little record of it over the centuries, I’d have to say. And those who do believe like you have not had the backing of the Spirit of God to propagate their belief because the Spirit of God does not anoint the kind of foolishness you are propagating.

        I am not saying that we judge the truth of a movement by the number of adherents, but one thing it does say in the Book of Revelation:

        Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
        Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”

        Any movement which is exclusive to the point of denying that such a great multitude of people from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues will be saved by God IS THEREFORE FALSE.

        Don’t hide behind the idea that few will be saved. You have to deal with this Scripture in the presence of the One who inspired it.

        Please wake up.

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