Joseph Prince says turning from sin not necessary for justification or forgiveness

You can used to be able to hear yourself what Joseph Prince teaches about the gospel and what he calls pure, uncluttered Christianity in the video at http://www.youtube.com/v/10lue7bhcK0. Obviously someone in his huge web team made sure the video came down. But I have made a partial transcription below so you can save yourself a few minutes watching the video if you want to. I’ve also done this in case they decide to take this video down in the future. They took the video down, but I found it elsewhere:


Watch Will The Real Christianity Please Stand Up?

 

Transcription of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lue7bhcK0

JP: Not only your past sins, but your entire life – God put it at Jesus, all the sins of your entire life – even tomorrow, next year, next month, next century., … God put all your sins in the body of Jesus and Jesus paid for ALL your sins, and God is so pleased with what Jesus did, that God raised Jesus from the dead. Now listen carefully, … God’s law must be honored … Jesus came and he suffered the consequences of the broken law.

My comment: This is true, but it is usually mentioned as some kind of proof that no amount of unbelief and sin on the part of a born again Christian can possibly affect their justification with God. The jump in logic from here goes something like .. “since God already paid for the sins you are going to commit tomorrow, you are free to go and commit them, because they are paid for, and God would be unholy if he punished you again.”

JP: If God punish you for your sins today, I say this reverently, then God is unholy, because God in his holiness, when Jesus carried our sins, God had no choice but to punish his own beloved Son, for the sins that he carried. It was not his own sins it was our sins. And God in his holiness punished every iota, every item of sin that he was carrying. Because it has been punished, you know what, YOU ARE FREE. And if today God punishes you for your sin, that would make God unholy. God’s holiness today is FOR YOU. Thats the reason why, there is therefore now no condemnation.

My Comments: Only IN HIM do we have forgiveness of sins. (Ephesians 1:7). We are not IN HIM if we are not willing to yield ourselves to God. I will now post what the apostle John said about being in Christ and about those who would say that the PRACTICE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS has nothing to do with whether you are of God or not – exactly the kind of heresy Joseph Prince is preaching.

1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. 1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

Prince is judging God here in fact, and stating that according to Joseph Prince’s rules of reasoning, if Jesus paid for the sin, God would be unholy to judge you. If Prince is right, then God would also be unholy to judge the sinner who never believed in Jesus at all, because after all, Jesus paid for that sinner’s sin, and God should have no further right to judge that sinner. Especially if there are really NO CONDITIONS to receiving forgiveness as Prince states later in his message.

God has NEVER stated that gives anyone a free pass to sin. Justification has always been by faith, never by lawkeeping, but it must be a LIVING FAITH, which has works of repentance and a change of heart concerning sin. Those who would deny this seem to be very ignorant of the whole counsel of God. Its hard to believe that people could consider the whole Bible account of God’s dealings with men and conclude that he gives unrepentant people a free pass to sin. Even King David repented of his sin. If he had not repented, he would certainly have been lost, as was Saul.

JP: Not because God says, “Nevermind”, NO! Because its paid. The condemnation for my sins and yours has fallen upon Jesus. And because it has fallen on Jesus, it will never fall on me. There is therefore now no condemnation … When you owe money to your creditor it is not for you to say “Paid”. It is for your creditor to say “Settled”. Its not for you to feel it is settled … Did Jesus’ death glorify God? Did Jesus’ death magnify the law? Did God compromise His law? No! Did God in order to rescue you from judgement ignore his law? No! Jesus had to pay. But because its paid, you don’t have to pay. Good news. So how do I know I’m justified?

My Comments: Antinomian (Anti-law) preachers like Joseph Prince love to quote only the first part of Romans 8:1. You see here how he has left off: “for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit”. If he quoted the whole verse as it is in the Majority Greek Text, it would undermine everything he is trying to say.

JP: Pastor Henry is walking free. And I say, “You didn’t even say thank you”. … God is so satisfied with what Jesus did, that when God raised Him from the dead, He did it with style … He gave him all power and authority and made him sit at his right hand, that shows how satisfied He is. God did it for us, to show us how satisfied God is with His Son’s work at the cross. You need not apologise for the cross. Can I have a good Amen!. The fact that Jesus rose from the dead means all your sins are clear. Paul says it like this, that if Christ is not raised, you are still in your sins. So the fact Christ is raised is your receipt – your sins are forgiven. It is accepted, his payment is accepted. And God showed his satisfaction by raising his son from the dead.

My Comments: The resurrection of Christ is indeed a NECESSARY condition for our justification, but nowhere does the Bible say that it is a SUFFICIENT condition. If it was a sufficient condition then EVERYONE ON EARTH would be forgiven and justified automatically. Joseph Prince is just making things up when he says that Christ’s resurrection is our “receipt” from God proving we have justification. That is known as “eisegesis” – that is, reading INTO the text whatever is not there but what one wants to say. And you will see later in this message that Joseph Prince “eisegetes” into the passage other things as well.

From 6:15minutes in the video – here is where it gets really bad.

JP:Acts 13:36 – therefore, let it be known to you brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins.

Notice, just a declaration with no conditions whatsoever. Its a declaration of the full, free, unclouded, immediate favor of God – with no conditions on the part of the recipient. Through this man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins. Not only forgiveness but next verse says, “and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.” Not only by him we have forgiveness but by him we have justification, righteousness, that you cannot receive from the law of moses. Now think about this, there are people there, majority are not saved. Alright? Think about what people are saying about this kind of preaching today. If Paul preached this sermon today, there would be those who say “Paul is preaching easy believism”.

My Comments: No one should pretend that what Paul said here is a total list of God’s requirements from people who wish to be saved from the wrath to come, and no one should say that what Paul doesn’t say here proves that in a presentation of the full gospel nothing more is required. We should not argue from silence. 

I could use the same kind of argument to prove that you will get everything you ask from God, regardless of conditions. Jesus said, “Ask, and you shall receive… For everyone who asks receives” (Matthew 7:7). Jesus.  By Joseph Prince’s reasoning, since no conditions are mentioned here, it is not necessary to have faith when you ask, since Jesus does not mention it. In fact Jesus says “Everyone”! So everyone should get everything they want just by asking. Experience shows this just isn’t the case. Neither is it the case that everyone who hears what Prince calls the “uncluttered immediate eternal gospel” gets unconditional forgiveness from God. We have to know what else Paul preached, and who better to tell us than Paul himself.

If we really care to know what Paul’s message in preaching actually was, lets look at how he summarised his own preaching ministry. Paul in defending himself said:

Act 26:19  “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
Act 26:20  but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.
Act 26:21  For these reasons the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me.

To the Ephesian elders:

 

Act 20:20  how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house,
Act 20:21  testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. …

Act 20:24  But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
Act 20:25  “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.
Act 20:26  Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men.
Act 20:27  For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

 

You have to preach the whole counsel of God to be innocent of the blood of all men, and I do not hesitate to say that Joseph Prince, megachurch pastor in Singapore, not only DOES NOT preach the whole counsel of God, but also, he despises the teaching of it.

The gospel of the grace of God is what Paul preached (see the quote). How then does he say to Agrippa that he told the Gentiles that they should turn repent, turn to God and do works befitting repentance? It is because the true grace of God Paul elsewhere describes as follows:

 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good  works. (Titus 2:11-14)

Grace is God’s power to enable us to change. It is not a promise that we don’t have to change to be free from God’s judgement.

JP: Let’s follow now. We are going back to early Christianity. Alright? Paul did not make conditions. Paul didn’t say “REPENT!” And if your heart is truly, truly, truly repentant (people laugh)… if you are really sincere … notice the full declaration of the free favor of God … immediate and eternal … through this man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins … and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses, by the Ten Commandments.

My Comment: This is not a complete presentation of the doctrine of the early Christians. I also doubt if it was a complete record of everything Paul said on that day, but rather his main points. The thing is, the gospel DOES present an offer of forgiveness that is not obtained by lawkeeping. But the gospel also REQUIRES something. It requires a surrendering to God, a commitment to the person of Christ, and a willingness to change as the living LORD Jesus speaks into our lives. The fact that Paul is not recorded as saying “Repent” in this message does not define for us what the gospel is or requires. In other passages like Acts 17:30 Paul does say REPENT while preaching to unbelievers. He says that “God commands all men everywhere to REPENT”. Paul clearly taught that people should turn from sin and forsake it. Paul taught that His preaching made people OBEDIENT TO GOD.

Romans 15:18  For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient—
Romans 15:19  in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Back to  Joseph Prince:

JP: Now think about it. If he preached like this today … there will be people, who are theologians, who have been influenced by cluttered Christianity, who will stand up and say, “You are preaching easy believism”. You are preaching sloppy agape … greasy grace … cheap grace … no don’t say down there, “Paul meant they should repent”. Where’s the word repent? “Therefore let it be known to you that through this man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins … when you have truly repented … when you have truly repented. Hmmm?

I have answered this objection above. Joseph Prince is telling his people not to worry about what theologians may say. This is anti-intellectual. It is also stupid. As I have already shown, just because a verse of the Bible does not mention a concept does NOT mean that the concept is irrelevant to the passage in question.

I will just say that Joseph Prince is preaching HERESY. Such preaching will never lead to people “working out their salvation with fear and trembling” (Php 2:13) because they think that it has already been “worked out” for them. The true preaching of grace leads people to humbly depend on God and cling to God, trusting indeed that God IS working His righteousness out in their lives as they walk by the Spirit, and trusting that as they walk by the Spirit, their sins and mistakes are under the blood of Christ.

 

JP: Now Pastor Prince, the Bible teaches on repentance! Yes. Repentance means change your mind. You know what? When Jesus came on the scene he said, “Repent and believe the gospel”. Change your mind about saving yourself, about your self effort, and believe the good news. Repent and believe the gospel. Its repentance from unbelief, from not believing God is so good, from not believing that the news that God has given is so good, what Jesus did is so good, the effects is so good, repent of that, and start to believe the good news. Your sins are truly forgiven. Your sins are truly forgiven.

My Comments:

Listen to JP’s take on what Jesus meant when he said “Repent and believe the gospel”. For Prince it is that Jesus is simply saying, “Stop trying to save yourself and believe you are already forgiven”.

Greek word ‘Metanoia’ does mean changing the mind. But it is not any old change of the mind. For example, it is not changing my opinions on the doctrine of salvation that constitutes repentance any more than changing my mind on which kind of music I like the most. Changing your mind about sin is what is required. means not wanting it any more. That is repentance. And the Hebrew concept of repentance implies strongly a turning away from sin. You cannot cling to your sins and say that you have “repented”.

I don’t think the people of the time would have understood THAT by what Jesus said. Its not what John the Baptist who prepared the way for Jesus taught about repentance. The Bible does not say what JP says here, he is adding it in. The Bible instead rather contradicts such thinking, as I have shwon. On what authority is Prince saying these things? Is it on the authority of having lots of money collected from a 19000 member church? Is it on the authority of being an internationally demanded conference speaker and being praised by people like Brian Houston? Is it on the authority of an extra biblical revelation? On what authority does he teach these things which so contradict the Word of God in both Old AND New Testaments?

 

Beware of false teachers. If you believe them, they may well lead you to HELL.

What do YOU think?

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About Michael Fackerell

The Christian faith is about Jesus. He came to save the lost. About Jesus Christ, Bible teaching, Testimonies, Salvation, Prayer, Faith, Networking.

Comments

  1. Sunrise says:

    Tonight I looked up the word REPENT in the Lexicon at http://www.blueletterbible.org. The Greek word for repent is METANOEŌ. Strong’s definition number 63340 says this is what REPENT means:

    1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
    2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

    When I looked at the second definition, it was like a bell went off. It says “to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins”. Do you know why the sinner is to just repent of his or her past sins to be saved? Why not include his or her future sins also? Why not take care of all of a person’s sins at one time, when he or she repents? Have you ever thought of that?

    It just dawned on me tonight. The answer is simple. It is because the sinners past sins are the only sins not covered by the blood. Whenever the sinner repents and accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior, THEN, his or her past sins are covered. Whatever present or future sins a believer commits continues to be covered by the blood. That’s why not all sins are included when a person initially repents. A TRUE CHRISTIAN WILL NOT ALLOW THIS TO BE A “LICENSE TO SIN.” What this will do is free the believer from the burden of sin, which people suffered from under the Law of Moses.

    Check this out. I typed “past sins” in the search box at the same site and this is what came up. This is Romans 3:25:

    “Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God;” [I put the capitalization in for emphasis.]

    This is my conclusion: The moment a sinner is saved he or she is covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. When that happens, all past sins are forgiven. From the point of salvation on, the blood of Jesus continues to cover that person’s sins. Therefore, all future sins have been accounted for by the blood. The repentance that was initially made is not just for the moment of salvation, but for the future also. Because, what does repentance mean? It means to change one’s mind and to abhor sin. This repentance is for the rest of a believer’s life.

    • michael says:

      God dealt with the sins in the past but he also provided a salvation for us going forward. I don't think the truth lies on either extreme regarding this.

      Extreme Position #1: The moment we sin or find ourselves yielding to some thought or attitude we know is wrong we have lost our identity in Christ. We need to get born again all over again.

      "If anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2).

       

      Extreme Position #2: We need not be concerned for our eternal souls if we have become apathetic and indifferent towards God, if we no longer believe as we once did, if we love the world and the things of the world and have no desire for relationship with God, if we keep on sinning deliberately. For God would be unholy if He ever judged or condemned us for all these sins, since He put the sin on Jesus.

      (refer Hebrews 10:26ff)

    • childofjesus says:

      We know that the prophecies in the book of Revelation is yet to be fulfilled.So we need to take the warnings seriously and do everything that is commanded in these prophesies.
      Revelation 1:3 – Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

      # To the Church in Ephesus
      1) What does God Command them ?
      Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT. (Rev. 2:5)
      2) What is the reward for those who OVERCOME ?
      To him that OVERCOMETH I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.(Rev.2:7)

      # To the Church in Smyrna
      Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. (Rev. 2:10)
      He that OVERCOMETH shall not be hurt of the second death.(Rev. 2:11)

      # To the Church in Pergamum
      REPENT; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (Rev. 2:16)
      To him that OVERCOMETH I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.(Rev. 2:17)

      # To the Church in Thyatira
      And I gave her space to REPENT of her fornication; and she REPENTED not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, EXCEPT THEY REPENT of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. (Rev. 2:21-23)
      And he that OVERCOMETH, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (Rev. 2:26)

      # To the Church in Sardis
      Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. (Rev. 3:3)
      He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Rev. 3:5)

      # To the Church in Philadelphia
      Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.(Rev. 3:11)
      Him that OVERCOMETH will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev. 3:12)

      # To the Church in Laodicea
      As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and REPENT. (Rev. 3:19)
      To him that OVERCOMETH will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Rev. 4:21)

      Therefore we see how important it is to REPENT for our sins and be OVERCOMERS in Christ Jesus.

    • realityorbust says:

      Thank you Sunrise for standing for the truth! Your conclusion is honestly the only logical conclusion I can find as well, and is the stance that Pastor Prince is making. When we sin, our sins have already been punished at the cross, thus there is no need for us to repent every time we sin. At the same time, “repent” is simply to change one’s mind. Thus we find that as we renew our minds by looking at Christ and His finished work, we are actually repenting the way Jesus intends, not our own self-pity and self-justifying way. Praise the Lord that you also have received this revelation. May His grace continue to be sufficient for you.

  2. GOD's Beloved Daughter says:

    1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

    I believe Jesus is Lord and my Savior. I am nothing without Jesus. Jesus was manifested to take away my sin. I abide in Jesus. How do I know this? “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” -John 10:9. I enter Jesus and I know this means I abide in Jesus. And because I abide in Jesus, I am sinless. Inside Him are holiness and righteousness. No sin is inside Jesus. People who still do not believe in Jesus and refuse Jesus, they are called sinners, because they have neither seen Jesus nor known Him (1 John 3:6). Meaning that these people still haven’t known of or about Jesus, and of course for not knowing Him, they have no personal or private relationship with Him, for they have never met Him or known Him: who Jesus is, what Jesus is.

    1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

    People who have known of or about Jesus, but refuse Jesus as their Lord and Savior are exactly like devil who know who Jesus is and has even met Him for real, but refuse Jesus as his (devil’s) Lord . Because of this, devil has sinned from the beginning. Devil wants himself to be lord, to be god, and refuse to acknowledge Jesus as one. Underline this, people who are like devil, have known Jesus but refuse Him as their Lord, are in the same group with devil, and counted as sinners (rebels).
    That is why Jesus was manifested. He suffered, died on the cross, and risen to Heaven, to destroy devil and all his attempts to deceive humans of knowing and believing in Jesus completely without anymore trouble or worries in their minds, as their Lord and Savior. Just by faith, no other things needed, that is why Jesus said on the cross, “It is finished!”.
    And Jesus did not die for the salvation of devil, that is why devil is upset and tries to deceive as many people as he can to refuse Jesus. Just like he did to Jewish people in Jesus’s crossing time, these Jewish people refused Him as their Lord and Messiah. They said it was blasphemy and even said let His blood be on them and their children (Matthew 27:25).

    1Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    People who are like me, have received Jesus as Lord and Savior, receive Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit and Jesus remain inside these people and because of this, they no longer counted as sinners, but as children of GOD (born of GOD). And as consequence, we will be thirsty of His Words, hungry of learning about Him more, due to the love that grows in us by Him.

    1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

    Since we are already in Jesus, means in holiness and righteousness, automatically, we are perfected by Jesus and Holy Spirit. As Their results (not our results), in us grow love towards GOD and towards others that erase and even make no room for hatred (a character owned by devil). And since we are in Jesus (in holiness and righteousness), we are holy and righteous automatically.

    • michael says:

      1 John 3:10 is warning against the deception of saying you are automatically holy and righteous even though you don't practice righteousness.

      • GOD's Beloved Daughter says:

        1Jn 3:9 “…he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.”
        If you have been born of God, then you cannot sin! It is no longer in your nature as you are already in Jesus (holiness and righteousness). Unless you say, God is a lie? That you mean “you can sin” even after you have been born of God (1jn 3:9)?

        1Jn 3:10 “In this the children of God…manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God.” Because of being in Jesus (in righteousness, for in Him there is no sin), it is automatically the result is righteousness. What does it mean to practice righteousness? It means that we practice all gifts the Holy Spirit has given us to practice. For example, we are GOD’s children now, so we can pray for people who are sick and they get healed, because of GOD in us.

        • michael says:

          Is it really impossible for a Christian to sin? To me this position is ridiculous. Paul wrote to the Corinthians

           

          I am afraid that when I come again my God may humiliate me before you, and I may mourn over many of those who have sinned in the past and not repented of the impurity, immorality and sensuality which they have practiced.

          2 Corinthians 12:21

           

          Isn't it clear from this verse alone that sadly Christians do sometimes sin, and they need to REPENT of it. Yet Joseph Prince and his followers seem to come against this very idea by every means available to them. Why not just get real and admit that Christians need to turn from sin?

          Paul also wrote to the Corinthians:

          Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

          (1 Cor. 15:34)

           

          John wrote in the same epistle quoted:

          My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

          (1 John 2:1)

           

          Here is another Scripture which ought to defeat this antinomian idea that we are perfect and unable to sin no matter what kind of lives we live. It is 1 John 1:8

          "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us".

           

          Please do not think that I have exhausted the Bible resources that can support my position on this matter. I think it is really DANGEROUS to teach people that they are perfect, righteous and unable to sin, that they don't need to repent, and that all this. It just isn't what Jesus or the apostles taught. It is derived from a misunderstanding of some of the verses they taught – a misunderstanding which just cannot be harmonised with the rest of the New Testament.

           

          We are not justified by a PERFECT REPENTANCE, but we are justified by the grace and blood of Christ. However, God chooses who will be a recipient of that grace. He reserves the right to throw people out of the wedding feast and cast his own wicked servants into the Lake of Fire – something you'll see if you read the parables of Jesus in the Gospels.

          This means we do well to have the fear of God, but not the kind of cringing fear which expects to get beaten every time we miss the mark in any way. What God is looking for are people who GENUINELY WANT TO GO HIS WAY, and who are making steps in that direction.

           

           

           

           

        • michael says:

          There are going to be people who thought that because they were exercising spiritual power in the name of Jesus that they were ipso facto "practicing righteousness". But have a good read and think about Matthew 7:21-23. These people were even casting out demons and doing wonders in Jesus' name(which are generally good things to do actually) . Jesus however will condemn them because they were "workers of iniquity" "practicing lawlessness". Do you think these people are going to be able to turn around to Jesus on that day and say, "Hey Jesus, you are so unrighteous in condemning me, because you paid for my sins, and I am righteous in Christ, and I am you as you are me and you are he and we are all together"?

        • Annette1016 says:

          You are very well versed, but, i believe. You are being deceived, just because you are given the right to become. The child of God. Does not mean we all accept. The gift, plus there are some who get handed over to the devil to burn lust out of them. Then they are welcomed. Back into the fold. We are none perfected until Shiloh comes. Yet you should know this and you know these verses. Michael and Childofjesus are both very well versed as well, but when it comes to my relationship with God, that is personal, and no Tv personality or other Man has a right to come between me and my God. Forgiveme that sounded judgemental , but i find many Tv preachers in trouble and leading many astray, and I have my own problems to lay down at the foot of the cross, so i can do no more than Thank God for giving his very best for some one like me. He says I deserve it so i am believing for the best. Amen!

          • lookinforacity says:

            Free will cannot be exercised to either accept or reject the gift of salvation.
            The exercising of free will denotes an understanding of the decision (a choice) to be made

            Scripture tells us

            John 6:44
            No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

            Eph. 2:8
            For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

            According to these two verses, God has drawn us to Himself, giving us the gift of salvation.
            The gift of Gods’ grace (salvation), is not offered for our approval, it is a “GIFT” which has been given to us. Those to whom God chooses to give this gift, do not have a choice, they will not refuse it.
            Just because a person has heard the Gospel, does not mean they have been drawn by God to receive His gift of grace.

            Just by the mere fact of living our lives, we choose whom our master will be, we do not have to refuse salvation in order for us to go to hell, we just need to live out our lives, the same way we have always lived.
            A life lived without God in it, is doomed to the abyss.

            Mat. 6:24
            No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

            We do not reject or accept the Grace of God, we are the ones who are accepted, by having receiving it.

            Eph. 1:6
            To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

            JIM

          • childofjesus says:

            Your comment : God has drawn us to Himself, giving us the gift of salvation.Those to whom God chooses to give this gift, do not have a choice, they will not refuse it.Just because a person has heard the Gospel, does not mean they have been drawn by God to receive His gift of grace.We do not reject or accept the Grace of God, we are the ones who are accepted, by having receiving it.
            My comment : Does that mean God is interested only in some people and not all people.?
            Is God Partial that He chooses only some people to give this gift ? Why are only some people accepted by Him ? Is there any special attribute of these people that God sees and chooses them ?

            Your comment: we just need to live out our lives, the same way we have always lived.
            My comment : How does this apply to the person (a christian) who is struggling from sin of say lust…If he is not able to break free from this sin, does that mean he is serving mammon ?

            John 3:16 says – For God so loved THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
            God is interested in each and every person in THE WORLD..He wants to choose every person, draw every person and accept every person…He wants to give NEW LIFE IN CHRIST to every person.That is the Power of His Love.

            Shanta

          • lookinforacity says:

            Shanta

            Your Comment
            “God is interested in each and every person in THE WORLD..He wants to choose every person, draw every person and accept every person…He wants to give NEW LIFE IN CHRIST to every person.That is the Power of His Love.”

            My Comment
            How then do you account for the untold millions of people since Christ who were.
            Jewish
            Muslim
            Buddhist
            Hindu

            As far as the Jews are concerned, salvation was taken from them and given to the Gentiles.
            That means, the overwhelming number of Jews born since Jesus, have died in their sins.

            The Muslims are related to the Jews by blood, Abraham being their patriarch as well, but they were never counted in as part of the chosen people, never having a chance to come unto God as the Jews did, salvation as far as the Muslim is concerned was never offered to them.

            The Buddhist, and Hindu aren’t even mentioned in the Bible, where do they fall as far as salvation is concerned?
            What would you say would be the percentage of Christians in the Buddhist, and Hindu world?

            The only ones who seem to have benefited from Gods’ favor would be the peoples of Europe, the Greek and Roman Empires, then across to the Americas, N. and S.

            Aren’t there far more people in the last 2000 yrs. who have not ever heard or had the chance to gain salvation than those who have?

            The only thing I can say about the Love of God and His motives concerning mankind.

            Rom. 9:15,16 and 18
            15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
            16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth,(BUT OF GDO THAT SHOWETH MERCY).
            18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

            JIM

          • childofjesus says:

            Your Comment : How then do you account for the untold millions of people since Christ who were.
            Jewish
            Muslim
            Buddhist
            Hindu
            My Comment : I really don’t know how God is going to jugde the nations at the End (especially the ones who have not heard the Salvation Message). How He is going to fulfil His own Word . All I know is that what we see and think now, is from our Carnal Mind…Isaiah 55:8 says – For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
            Habakkuk 2:14 says – “For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea”
            Isaiah 11:9 – for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
            The earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, just like the sea is covered with water…When the water covers the sea, there is no dry land…there is not a single place which remains dry so will the Knowledge of the Lord fill each dry nation, each dry family and each dry person.
            God Bless you.
            Shanta

          • Annette1016 says:

            his ways are far above our Ways? Very well spoken shanta. And Michael. we are not our own, we were bought for the most dear treasure. We are to strive for perfection, we are to drink his blood and eat of his flesh. I have done this more than once, but the way that are speaking, i should do that once and never again either. this JP pReaching i believe is causing confusion to many in the body of Christ. I will just state that for we all know where confusion comes from.

    • childofjesus says:

      Let us discuss the topic “THE END OF YOUR STRUGGLES” preached by Pastor JP.
      Here I have jotted down the main points of JP’s message on the above subject. The video is available on http://www.youtube.com. Watch it for yourself before it is removed. I welcome your comments.
      Ques. 1 ) When asked “Pastor I’m STRUGGLING (with lust, anger etc ), what should i do”?
      Pastor JP’s explanation as follows :
      – This is not your true self. Your true self is the Man (Jesus) seated at God’s Right Hand.
      -‘In Christ Jesus’ means your identity before God in God’s eyes have changed, God is not looking at your struggles, as far as God is concerned we have been crucified when Jesus was crucified on the cross. Jesus died not ‘for us’ but ‘as us’. Jesus is the new you. Heaven has finally found a Perfect Man and you know that man is you. Can that man be condemned again ?… NEVER. – God is looking at Jesus in you. God’s eyes are always on the Perfect Man Jesus , not on you. When God wants to judge you or assess you, it is not you but He judges Jesus Christ, because Jesus is the New you. God gives us Jesus as the basis to Bless you.
      Ques. 2 ) But Pastor, doesn’t God look at my shortcomings ?
      Pastor JP’s explanation as follows :
      God is looking not at you but at Jesus. God is treating you like Jesus but you are treating yourself like trash, rubbish…
      Ques. 3 ) How does it help me in times of temptation ? Every time I’m tempted, what should I do?
      Pastor JP’s explanation as follows :
      Alright nothing doing self. We are no more in self. We are crucified and our identity before God is Christ Himself. Therefore you can never be condemned. So just as you accepted Christ as your substitute in Salvation, so you have to accept Christ as your true self before Christ. If you are still trying your best, you still think that you can make it, you can overcome lust, overcome anger, then you will be going on merry go round and disappointed and you are always struggling.
      In Conclusion he says – The way out is to know that I died, because Christ died, I was raised when He was raised. CHRIST is ME today.
      My Comment:
      He did not say that we need to REPENT for our sins and ask Jesus to FORGIVE them and give His HOLY SPIRIT to overcome them.
      What do you say ? Is Pastor JP giving the right picture of God ?
      (Please save your comment on your computer before you post as the site is facing some issues and data is getting lost. Michael is trying his best to make it right; till then save your copy)

      • michael says:

        If you read or listen to Joseph Prince you will notice that his teaching doesn't sound at all like what Jesus or the apostle Paul gave. God's men were spending time WARNING people about sin.

        Paul said in Acts 20:

        how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ 

        In the same passage later on he said:

         Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

        Let us suppose just for a moment that Paul had just preached a message like Joseph Prince is reported to have preached above. Does it even make sense in the light of Joseph Prince's message to "warn everyone day and night with tears"?

        Warn them of WHAT? That no matter what they do they are accepted by God and God would be unholy if He condemned them for sinning?

         

        Let us discuss the topic “THE END OF YOUR STRUGGLES” preached by Pastor JP.

        MF writes:

        I found the video is at 

        It probably won't be taken down because it looks like an official posting. 

         

        Here I have jotted down the main points of JP’s message on the above subject. The video is available on http://www.youtube.com. Watch it for yourself before it is removed. I welcome your comments.
        Ques. 1 ) When asked “Pastor I’m STRUGGLING (with lust, anger etc ), what should i do”?
        Pastor JP’s explanation as follows :
        – This is not your true self. Your true self is the Man (Jesus) seated at God’s Right Hand.
        -‘In Christ Jesus’ means your identity before God in God’s eyes have changed, God is not looking at your struggles, as far as God is concerned we have been crucified when Jesus was crucified on the cross. Jesus died not ‘for us’ but ‘as us’. Jesus is the new you. Heaven has finally found a Perfect Man and you know that man is you. Can that man be condemned again ?… NEVER. – God is looking at Jesus in you. God’s eyes are always on the Perfect Man Jesus , not on you. When God wants to judge you or assess you, it is not you but He judges Jesus Christ, because Jesus is the New you. God gives us Jesus as the basis to Bless you.
        Ques. 2 ) But Pastor, doesn’t God look at my shortcomings ?

         

        This explanation is a mixture of truth and error, like so many things Joseph Prince teaches. Christ died not "for us"? How can any Christian teacher say this?

        But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

        Just do a concordance search – you will find it mentioned in many places. You will never find the words "Christ died AS US". You will find however that we died with Christ. This is a legal fact, to be appropriated by faith. Yet it has to be entered into like so many of the other promises and statements of God, or it just remains so many words.

         

        Nowhere does the Bible say that "Jesus is the new you". We are not Jesus. Christ is IN US, but we are not Christ, nor are we Jesus. We are the Bride of Christ, the Body of Christ, not Jesus Christ. And its possible to fall away from God, just as the prodigal son did, and many others who are specifically mentioned by name in the New Testament. Don't you think it could be dangerous to teach such sloppy theology when souls are at stake?

        Therefore it does not follow that heaven has found YOU to be a perfect man.

        To realise that this whole line of thinking is INCORRECT you only have to look at the Book of Revelation – chapters 2 and 3. We have Jesus saying that He sees what is going on, that He knows their WORKS (He never says He knows their hearts) and we see Jesus warning the churches and telling them them to REPENT.

        How can this be harmonised with the idea that God only sees Jesus when He sees us, and therefore God sees us unconditionally as PERFECT. Sorry, but the apostle John did not see it this way when He wrote the Book of Revelation.  

         

         

        • GOD's Beloved Daughter says:

          When Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God gave them skins to cover up with (Genesis 3:21). To get those skins, some animal had to die. In other words, God sacrificed an animal to cover their sin. From the beginning, God has declared the payment for sin is death, and so blood must be shed to cover sin:
          Leviticus 17:11: “For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”
          Hebrews 9:22: “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
          We could shed our own blood for our own sins, but that wouldn’t do us much good because then we’d be dead. God doesn’t want us dead—he wants us alive. But that leaves him with a great dilemma: we each have sinned and must die for our sins, so how can we live?
          God devised a plan. Early in the Old Testament God introduced the idea of one innocent being shedding its blood in place of the sinner’s. After the incident in the garden, he introduced the sacrificial system in the Tabernacle-Temple ceremonies. That’s what those sacrifices were all about: “He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him” (Leviticus 1:4).
          However the solution of sacrificing bulls and goats and lambs for the sins of each person’s sin was a temporary fix. The next year, another animal would have to be sacrificed for the same person. A more permanent solution was needed.
          That meant a human was needed to die for humans’ sin. But all humans are sinful, so another sin-filled person dying for us just wouldn’t work. A human without sin was needed.
          But ever since Adam, every human born is sin-filled, so how could a sinless man happen? The only way was if God did it Himself.
          So he did.
          God became a man, known as Jesus—whose name, Joshua in Hebrew, means “the LORD saves” (1)—and died for us in our place. Therefore, anyone who accepts the sacrifice of Jesus on his or her behalf is covered by his blood and is saved.
          Buddha didn’t die for us. Mohammad didn’t die for us. Name any other god and whoever you name, they 1.) weren’t sinless, and 2.) didn’t die for us.
          Only Jesus satisfies God’s requirement of a perfect, sinless person who was sacrificed in our stead. Therefore, Jesus is the only way.

          Taken and copied from: http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/evangelism/Butts_Why_Jesus_Died.aspx

          • childofjesus says:

            I perfectly agree with what you have shared on “Jesus died on our behalf” from http://www.cbn.com. However, under this topic we are discussing about Pastor Joseph Prince teachings.So if you can share from his messages, we can discuss and come to the right Biblical conclusion…

      • Sunrise says:

        Joseph Prince was asked three questions. Here they are again:

        1) “Pastor I’m STRUGGLING (with lust, anger etc ), what should I do”?

        My comment on his answer: He’s telling believers to remember who they are.

        2) “Pastor, doesn’t God look at my shortcomings?”

        My comment on his answer: He’s saying God sees Jesus in us and not our shortcomings.

        3) “How does it help me in times of temptation? Every time I’m tempted, what should I do?” [Actually this is two questions together.]

        My personal comment: What does “it “stand for in the first question? To me, “it” means remembering who you are. So, let me rephrase it. “How does REMEMBERING WHO I AM help me in times of temptation? If a person were to focus on who he or she is in Christ that should be a deterrent in itself.

        My comment on his answer: Again his emphasis is on who we are in Christ. He brings out the fact that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

        My personal comment: Under the Law of Moses sin brought condemnation. That was the burden the Law placed on the saints of God in the Old Testament days. Grace does not bring condemnation. Grace brings freedom from condemnation. This lifts a heavy burden off of the believer. It allows the believer to put past failures behind him or her and start over anew.

        Being tempted is not a sin, or else Christ would have sinned when the devil tempted Him. Giving in to that temptation is a sin. That being said, there was no specific question that came right out and asked, “What do I do if I sin?”

        • childofjesus says:

          Alright. We come to different conclusion by hearing the same message. Here is another message preached by JP on “Breaking Porn Addiction through Grace”.
          I have jotted down the main points:
          When it comes to sexual temptation, the way out is in 1 Cor 6:18 – “FLEE from sexual immorality.” Flee like Joseph who fled from potiphar’s wife (Gen.39).When you are tempted, don’t say “ Come, i want to fight you(sin) in Jesus’ name”…No,No don’t even use the name…Run, Flee…
          Ques: How does a person FLEE from vile images haunting his mind, even though he is not opening the computer to watch the porn ?
          Further he explains the CYCLE why people fall into sin. First, TEMPTATION –> CONFIDENCE in the FLESH (I can handle this)—>SIN (Indulgence)—–> GUILT (New Resolution)—> and then back to TEMPTATION.
          When the adulterous women was brought to Jesus, He said “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin (John 8:11).
          JP says to the person struggling with porn addiction, know this – “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1)”. He says that the person gets empowerment by knowing that he is not condemned.
          Again JP has missed ‘Asking FORGIVENESS of sins from JESUS and asking Holy Spirit to empower the person to OVERCOME the sin”.
          Now let us listen to Reinhard Bonnke who explains why Jesus did not condemn the adulterous women? Why He did not fulfil the Law by stoning her to death ?(From the message “There no righteous)
          The reason is this – Jesus was already on His way to be executed on her behalf. He took her death sentence on Himself and gave her Eternal Life. Jesus fulfilled the Law on Himself. When Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you”, waves of Love flowed from His heart to her heart. For the first time she knew what Love was. Love of God was LIFE, PEACE, DELIVERANCE and SALVATION.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Also, note, He gave her a command to cease walking in sin. "Go and sin no more." It was her forgiveness for sin committed, coupled with the command to rule her spirit and not give place to the flesh any longer. Romans says, "Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

            Why do we act like the second part is not there? We cannot abide in Christ while walking in the flesh. We can be grafted into the True Vine, read John 15, but still, abiding is something Jesus had to admonish the very 12 to make a conscientious choice to continue in. If we take it for granted, we will lose it….

            In America and the wealthy Christian first world, we are VERY MUCH like Laodicea. We think we have it all and we assume all is alright, BUT we are wretched and poor and blind and naked in God's eyes…. we have taken too much for granted and have ceased pressing in toward the mark of the prize of our high calling. There is no easy Christianity where we receive it and then act like we have it, without overcoming sin and not just mentally using scriptural gymnastics to proclaim it away.

            This post is not directed at any person in particular as I have not followed this thread before. I am just addressing mindsets that often crop up in similar discussions.

            Tim
             

          • Sunrise says:

            I like the name you have for yourself on this site. It suits you.

            “Ques: How does a person FLEE from vile images haunting his mind, even though he is not opening the computer to watch the porn?
            Further he [Joseph Prince] explains the CYCLE why people fall into sin. First, TEMPTATION –> CONFIDENCE in the FLESH (I can handle this)—>SIN (Indulgence)—–> GUILT (New Resolution)—> and then back to TEMPTATION.”

            That’s a tough question. Do you ever have thoughts come into your mind that you detest? I have. Certain words or certain images cause these thoughts to pop up in my mind. Just the other day I was thinking about the Israelites worshipping these idols that promoted sexual promiscuity. I wondered how they could do that. Images of what they might have done grossed me out. I thought ooh, God take these thoughts away. I don’t like it.

            Our brains record every word we’ve read, heard, or said and even thought. It records every image we’ve seen or thought of. The thing is this: When something comes up that one doesn’t like, don’t dwell on it. In other words, don’t let those images or thoughts “camp out” in one’s brain. Find some way to distract yourself. If a person is looking at porn on the computer, he or she should have the guts to turn the computer off and get up and get away from it. Or you could do like the guy did in the movie Fireproof. Take the monitor and the tower outside and take a baseball bat to it. It’s a little extreme, but it took care of the problem. A much simpler way would be to put a filter on the computer that would block-out pornographic sites.

            As far as the cycle he talks about goes, it’s like this. When a believer sins, there is usually a feeling of self-condemnation, even though the believer is under Grace. If the believer lets this self-condemnation control him or her, then he or she might repeat the offense. Why? It is because that person figures that he or she has already “crossed the line”. So, they wind up doing it again. Of course, there are exceptions to this. Some believers learn from their mistakes and never repeat it again.

            The adulterous woman you spoke of probably felt self-condemnation, having been caught in the act of adultery. Jesus freed her from that self-condemnation by giving no condemnation. He was actually giving her Grace. I believe because of that, she did exactly what he told her to do, “Go and sin no more.” I don’t believe she ever committed adultery again.

            There are Christians who get into situations that they think they can handle. They think they can overcome the temptation themselves. For example, we had a music director in our church who got involved with one of the ladies in the choir. After it was over, he came before the church and apologized to everyone who may have been affected by his actions. He said himself that he thought he could handle the situation, but it got out of hand. He found out he couldn’t. He did reconcile with his wife and the lady was reconciled to her husband. Of course, he resigned as our music director. As far as I know, they are both still married to the same mates today. In fact, the lady is my neighbor, so I know that she and her husband are still together.

          • childofjesus says:

            Yes…Sometimes I do get thoughts back of images which I might have seen in the newspaper or a movie or just by flipping channels on TV…but I immediately confess it & ask Jesus to remove them…Once I also got a dream of sexual act…In the morning, when I got up, I binded that spirit in Jesus Name…till now I have not got any such dream again…
            When the devil reminds me of my PAST SINS (for which I have asked forgiveness and now I am in Christ Jesus) and accuses me for being imperfect child of Jesus, then I tell him Romans 8:1 – “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
            So the cycle should be like this :
            TEMPTATION –> CONFIDENCE in the FLESH (I can handle this)—>SIN (Indulgence)—–> GUILT (Which is the conviction of the Holy Spirit)—>Take your sins to JESUS—>Ask for FORGIVENESS–>Jesus will EMPOWER you with HOLY SPIRIT to Overcome the sin.

          • Annette1016 says:

            Yet I seem to notice that the ones whom laid in wait for the woman that was caught in adultery, what where they Doing? How long had they seen that the woman may have needed help or the other man in whom she was with. Why was he not brought before Jesus Also? I think their sins is what he started writing in the dirt. Yet I was not there to witness it. We are all so eager to jump down Michael throat for making a stand on Gods word, and he has backed it up each time. Are we any better than those lying in wait for that woman to sin, when they most likely could have helped her with encouragement towards doing the right things. Also we all have some evil imaginations, that’s why we cast them down, when they are not of God. Also the Holy Spirit of God Convicts but does not condemn. the thing I find most of the time is that we are too busy telling others to get it right, that we forget to look inside at ourselves first. as far as JP! JS! OR Anyone they are not, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I am on his side. thank You!

  3. Friends, after hearing so much debating and arguing and condemning and boasting.. all i can ask is, is all these worth it?

    I can imagine our Father in heaven looking down on this forum, would He be pleased with all this He is seeing? Are all these debates more important than spending time with Him? Sure enough, I know all of you have probably studied the bible more than I do, and I certainly am not fit to tell all of you to click the ‘x’ button and go spend time with God.

    But the point I want to make is, Michael, so what if you prove that this area of what Pastor Prince is sharing about is not “sound”, oh repentance is essential for salvation, so what if another person proves that this area is “biblical”, oh we are perfected by the blood of Christ?

    I want to bring us to just this simple commandment that John the apostle mentioned from God in 1 John. John the beloved disciple, the disciple who knew he was loved by Jesus, 1 John, the book which you quoted several times from, gives this commandment (i.e. something certain and sure to be correct).

    1 John 3:23 (NKJV)
    23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

    Is Pastor Prince preaching against this commandment? Is he asking his church followers to not love one another? Is he asking them to not believe in the name of Jesus Christ? If not, why are we nit picking on every little “doctrine” or “phrase” he says? Is it edifying?

    I have many pointers to justify my argument, but i just don’t see the point in.
    Just to bring us to something i shared in another segment,
    http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/how-to-overcome-sin

    I used to be wary of Pastor Prince’s sharing and went all on the “oh prosperity gospel, oh license to sin” hooha. But then I realised, God has a plan for every speaker.

    Pastor Prince has shared countless of times of not being under law and staying bondage to sin. But points to grace of Jesus Christ as power to set people free from sin. Is he promoting sin and lawlessness? I personally have been blessed by Pastor Prince’s ministry of grace setting people free from the law. I don’t think anyone who teaches people to get out of sin preaches on “no repentance”.

    I used to have the mindset that “oh that guy sinned again, what a lousy Christian, maybe he isn’t saved.” But, after having a fresh revelation of the grace of Jesus through Pastor Prince, I no longer have that judgmental attitude, and not condemning anyone who i see keeps sinning. After all, who am I to place a charge against God’s elect, it is God who justifies.

    I believe different preachers have different callings. Some may be called to preach to the lawless and preach to them about brimstone and hellfire. But some may be called to preach to those who have been oppressed by condemning preachers and pastors and set them free in the power of the grace of our Lord Jesus. Who are we to put down their ministries? Do we play God now? If Pastor Prince is really a false prophet, would God turn a blind eye to his ministry? Would God not crumble his ministry and leave him to “start repenting?” If like what you said, Pastor Prince is a false prophet, then are you saying God is ignorant and leading His sheep to the wrong shepherd? I believe God leads His people to the right shepherd, and I believe having a 19,000 member church and growing ministry states clearly that God wants to set His people free from the law and condemnation of judgmental preachers. Or would you dare to condemn the 19,000 believers, and say that they are all heading to eternal hellfire?

    If after hearing all this from me, you still believe Pastor Prince is a false prophet, i challenge you, as a fellow brother, read his book and go on itunes and listen to 10 of his podcast. Take up my challenge, and believe it for yourself.

    If you still do not believe Pastor Prince is appointed by God to preach, it is ok. You can pray with all your might for God to crumble his ministry. After all, God will defend His own word and His sheep. But do us all a favour, don’t go flaming and accusing on a Christian website. It is quite sad when non-Christians come in and see us arguing and fighting over menial stuff, and they think, is there any difference from their own families? That would be really sad.

    So Michael, why am i spending my precious sleep at 2am typing all this. I just wanna tell you that i’m greatly encouraged by this website that promotes love and encouragement and edification between brothers. But to use it as a platform for debate and pin pointing and nit picking and accusing of pastors preachings and people who comment in it, I find it a little saddening.

    Just my two cents worth. I won’t be back again, perhaps we’ll meet up there. May God bless your website ministry (:

    p.s. if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you are believing that salvation is by works. cos losing it is a work by itself.

  4. As I understand it, ‘Works of the Law’ were not originally simple self selected good deeds or acts of charity, but were the staturtory works that amounted to 613 commandments, the doing of which legalist assume would fulfill the Law (Torah or The Words of Elohim) and become the reward for justification and salvation; of which, though they tried, no man could bring into full fruition.

    Today, our salvation and acquired righteousness (thanks be to Adonai) before G-d’s judgment throne is completely apart from any rule of deserts, wages, award, debt or obligation placed on G-d by human effort, since we are all together blind hearted, with our understanding darkened.

    For no one will be aquited of guilt and pronounced righteous by their own deeds, for “our righteousness is as filthy rags.”

    But be not fooled, once we repent and embrace the election of the free gift of salvation through the offering of the Blood of Messiah, there follows an instruction in the Word of G-d that requires of us to reply by reciprocating through works that declare our faith in His power to redeem us…

    Col. 3:12… “Therefore, as G-d’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with feelings of compassion and with kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.”

    II Kefa (Peter) 1:10… “Therefore, brothers, try even harder to make your being called and chosen a certainty. For if you keep doing this, you will never stumble.”

    Philippians 2:12… “So my dear friends, just as you have always obeyed when I was with you, it is even more important that you obey now when I am away from you: keep working out your deliverance with fear and trembling”

    Ya’akov (James) 2:14, 17, 18… “What good is it, my brother, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such “faith” able to save him?”… “Thus faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead.”… “But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions!”

    I call it New Testament Torah: Ya’akov (James) 2:12… “Keep speaking and acting like people who will be judged by a Torah which gives freedom.”

    First come’s salvation by grace, then repentance that creates works… “If you love me, you will keep my commands”… Yochanan (John) 14:15

    This is not effortless success as the “Prince” would suggest, but G-d’s call and election demands a response to the bearing of our cross…

    • realityorbust says:

      hahaha your very right, and it’s nice to see that you don’t recognize works as the way to justification, but rather a response to justification. However, what Pastor Prince preaches is that the more you realize who you are in Christ and how His grace has provided for you, the more you will do good works. It is not out of the pressure of messing things up with God, but rather a natural response to being focused on Christ. THAT is the effortless success Prince teaches. If our response to God was always on our minds burdening us, why would Christ say, “Come to me…for my burden is light”? Instead, the more we come to Christ and having Him on our mind, the more we will do right out of the leading of His Spirit, for His sheep will know His voice. And if you will remember, the Word says that we died WITH Christ, so HE bore the cross for us. He said to “take up your cross” when He was trying to show up our good works to prove we were unrighteous. In this world we will have troubles of all kinds, but we can take heart because He has (past tense) overcome the world!

      • childofjesus says:

        Hi Taylor,

        It is true that God will not shun us away, every time we go to Him repenting for our sins.Why ? Because He is a Loving God.Don’t you see that God hated sin to that extent that He had to sent His One and Only Begotten Son to redeem us from sins ? Even after this precious sacrifice He made for us, do you think that we should keep going back to our old ways ?
        You have quoted Mat 11:30 – “For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
        A testimony of a believer sister which i read, i share with you to tell what this verse mean.
        -“When my husband was killed in an industrial accident, it was as heavy a burden as I ever carried, and in that process, God did give me rest. God carried my load and also gave me the strength to carry my load.”
        That was heavy. What did this woman say? That the death of her husband in an industrial accident was as heavy as burden as she ever carried. God carried her load for her. God gave her the strength to carry her own load. Both words are true: God carried her load for her and also gave her the strength to carry her own load. God has given us spiritual tools to carry those burdens, tools such as “I am with you always, to the end of the aged” or “suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and character produces hope and this hope will not disappoint us” or “carry one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.” Or “come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.” We all work like crazy to carry our own loads, but God has given us tools to help us in these moments of life.” God lifts us up and carries us when the burdens of our lives are difficult.”The verse does not mean that the walk with Jesus is easy but if you face any burden, come to Jesus, He will strengthen you and give you rest.He wants to exchange our heavy burdens with His Light burden.

        In Christ
        Shanta

  5. 33sjoyfulservant says:

    I used to watch sermons by J. Prince often.
    However I have never once heard him say: If it’s God’s will, this will happen, or that will happen. He always makes it out that God owes us EVERYTHING we ask, because: He has done it before.. Which is NOT true.

    That’s like the devil telling Jesus, “In the past you made manna for the people you freed from Egypt. Why don’t you do it again?: “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” -Mathew 4:3

    I used to believe the things Prince talked about, because a lot of it is truth. However. As Mathew 7:15 says: “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.” And I do believe Prince is a false prophet.
    He tends to tell us, we should achieve glory for ourselves. However the Bible teaches us we must do all things to bring glory to God. As the Angels say: “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.” -Luke 2:14.

    • realityorbust says:

      Wow. Really? First of all, let’s take Joseph Prince in context. I have listened to his teachings a lot, and I have grown more spiritually than ever before (growing up in a Christian home, going to church at least once a week, and going to a Christian private school my entire life). If you listen to his words as a whole and not just twist words out of context to accuse him (wait, who is called the Accuser?), you will find that he doesn’t say sin is magically ok now. As a matter of fact, what he preaches is meant to stop people from sinning! But not by telling them, “Your life is wrong. When you sin and still claim to be a Christian, you are just lying. You need to step up your performance to ‘glorify Christ’.” That is what many pastors have said and continue to preach, and it is DEAD WRONG!

      Let’s look at the Bible. If what Joseph or I say is unbiblical, then please, please, don’t listen. But read on to allow me the chance to prove to you the truth God reveals through this man you call a “false prophet” because his way is too light (didn’t the Pharisees say that about some one a while back?). We can start with 1st John 1. Notice that John first attacks the theory of gnosticism, belief that Jesus didn’t actually live as a man but only in spirit, and that all men were free of sin regardless of their faith in Christ. His comments about walking in darkness, when read in context, clearly mean knowledge and understanding, not sin. Read for yourself: This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10 ESV) Remember, he is still talking to unbelieving gnostics, not Christians yet. He wants them to join them in fellowship. He would not ask this of them if they were already in fellowship with Jesus.

      Next chapter, John says, “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” Then he goes on to say that those who know Him follow His commandments. But the commandments were, as John said, the word that they had heard (i.e. the gospel: repent, and trust in Jesus). Faith was the commandment. And faith in Christ produces love. So John says, logically, that one cannot truly know how much love and grace Christ has given him and not love his brother. It’s not law, it’s logic!

      Finally, let’s move to Romans 7. “What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
      Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
      So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.(Romans 7:7-25 ESV)” So even Paul, greatest of the apostles in many practical fields, struggled with sin. Notice the present tense, meaning this is a current thing! Paul struggled with sin, and this was written at a time right before his final missionary trip, so he was not a baby Christian. So, as chapter 8 verse 1 states, there is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ (who put their faith in Christ as He commands). And as for the “forgotten” end to that verse, it was actually added on later in translation, and is not in the older copies of the letter. So, Joseph Prince is NOT a false prophet, but rather a man preaching the truth of God’s grace. Let me see YOUR power (healings, freedom from addictions, raising the dead, etc.) and compare it to the power of God demonstrated through Joseph’s ministry as well as my own. Remember, the definition of a prophet is one who speaks the words of God to man. So a false prophet would be one who twists the Word of God to say something it doesn’t. This is exactly what is done when one takes verses out of the Bible without reading the context. So quoting the Bible out of context, like some of you so cleverly do, would make you a….false prophet. Joseph doesn’t claim that sin is ok, he claims that Jesus has already paid for it. If he hadn’t, you, me, and everybody on the planet would still be going to Hell. How can you pretend that you have never fallen, before or after Christ? So if Christ didn’t already pay for that, then what? As far as glorifying God vs. glorifying ourselves, Joseph has ALWAYS taught to praise God in all things at all times. He wants to bring the truth of Christ and His finished work (and Jesus said it was finished, not Joseph or me or anybody else) into its importance. Anyone who stands against that can’t honestly claim to have read the Word consistently. So perhaps instead of attacking someone who God is using to produce results, we can continue to fight against the Accuser of the Brethren (Satan) and uplift our brothers. To 33sjoyfulservant, I didn’t mean this in any way to be directed at you, but rather all those who have posted. Honestly, I just didn’t know how to comment without hitting the reply button. My goal in this is not to attack anyone, but rather I desire to remove the power of sin (trying to live by the Law -Galatians 2:21) from the Church once more! I desire for the troops to be rallied against the gates of Hell in the last stand we have on this earth. Read the Word, all of it (especially Romans, Paul’s description of Christianity), to know what you fight for, then stand with those who are like minded! This will bring glory to our Father! So I write this so all understanding and grace may be received by you, because it has been freely given. I write this, not to feel smart and long-winded, but to help all who view this page understand the true gospel. So all who believe in our Abba, our Lord, our King, and our Savior, ARISE!

  6. Folks, I don't want this page to become a discussion board for every issue about salvation. So unless your comment relates to something Joseph Prince said, or I said about his teaching in the main article, please create a new forum post or blog post and comment on your own post to give it some visibility and carry the discussions on there. I don't want to shut down this discussion, I just want it to carry on in a more orderly way, maybe one post per major issue or idea.

    Please respect this and don't force me to stop all commenting on this page.

    Thanks for your understanding.

    • I respect your wishes. This is your site and you have the right to conduct it the way you wish.

      I only heard of Joseph Prince last year after my husband died. These things that I have been putting on this site are things that I have learned personally over a period of 54 years as a Christian. That said I believe Joseph Prince would be flattered that you called him a young man. He’s actually around 56 years old. When he talks about grace, I understand him perfectly.

      I only get local channels on TV, so I do not get to hear him except when I go to my mother’s. But, so far, what I have heard from him I have no problem with. As for as UTube goes, how long do they keep those clips on there? It’s really not fair to judge a person by so small a clip. I would have to know what he said before and after. Just like when you take a Scripture from the Bible, always interpret it in its context.

      I read the same book you are talking about. He can say the things he does, because he has experienced them. It takes maturity to arrive at some of the things he talks about. I know just by what I have heard that he loves the Lord and he especially loves to talk about Grace. That’s his favorite topic

      • PraiseKingYeshua says:

        First of all thats not the entire broadcast above. I watch JP everyday. He is an amazing, gifted holy spirit teaching, teacher. I have learned more from JP in the past (close to) year than I have in my 42 years in church. This man is fluent in Hebrew and Greek. It is so important to know the actual language of the true scriptures! JP does’t say repernt, he also says ig you are truly in Christ your spirit knows to repent. If you sin doesn’t your spirit get a Oh NO feeling, guilt? YES of course it does IF you have the Holy Spirit in you. Then you repent, but you don’t beat yourself up over it!!! I did that for many many years and it was wrong. King Yeshua is in me and I finally understand I am under the NEW Covenent!! Hoo Wooo Praise God!

        JP plainly said there are Consequents to our sins!! BUT! He said no more are they visted on us, our children and our childrens children like in the Old Conventant. We cannot pay for our sins when Jesus / LordYeshua already did! How can I pay for my sins more so than HIS blood, beating, death and rise to life did? If / we could then why would Jesus ever had to. God has known us since the beginning. He knows every single sin we have, do and will commit. …. Goodness people if you don’t like JP thats fine, but don’t listin to half of what he says. Also I can see re-runs and learn more. This man is so annoited by God and to dismiss him will not hurt him, but you may miss out on an amazing unveiling of the way he teaches of GOD WORD / JEsus is the WORD. Amen!
        Lord bless each of these on this board and please Lord soften their hearts and open their eyes to YOUR truth and all you want them to learn from all your teaches. In King Yeshuas Holy name. Amen

    • I read the first part of your comments on Joseph Prince. I realized I have seen the DVD that has that sermon on it. I recognized his words, because I have listened to it several times. The sermon is about Grace. He preached it in Australia at a conference on Grace and Unmerited Favor. I found nothing in that sermon that I would disagree on. I know this about him: He would never ever, ever, ever condone sinning, just because God has forgiven the Christian of all his or her sins. The point he is trying to make is that a Christian no longer has to worry about right standing with God, because Jesus has put him or her in right standing with God. A Christian doesn’t have to worry from one day to the next whether or not he or she is saved. Salvation is permanent. With a Christian’s salvation taken care of, they are free to grow in Christ, free to live the Christian life and free to witness. Why? It is because you don’t have to wonder about your salvation all the time. How can a person witness to another person, if his or her own salvation is insecure? This I know: If it is hard for the sinner to keep the moral law of God, or the Ten Commandments, what makes one think that a person can keep it after he or she is saved? That’s why grace takes us out from under the law. No one can keep it.

      I am a Christian under grace, it doesn’t make me want to go out and sin just because I know all my sins are forgiven. Does it make you want to sin?

      This is what makes my sense of justice flare up: It’s when a person thinks the worst in regard to forgiving part of grace. Instead of saying it’s going to make people go out and sin, why can’t we say it’s going to bring out the best in people. People tend to be negative rather than positive.

      I did some research some years ago on the terms acquitted and justified. Think about a court of law. When a judge or jury finds a person not guilty of a crime, they DECLARE that person not guilty. Now this judge or jury cannot come back later and retry this person for that same crime again. Our crimes or sins have been judged by God through Jesus Christ on the cross. Our guilt was placed on Him and God punished Him in our place. So, our sins are paid for. Therefore, those crimes, or sins cannot be judged by God again, because they have already been judged and the debt paid. Just because I know this doesn’t make me want to continue in sin. I’m just thankful that I am already forgiven for it. I’m free to pick myself up and get back on track. What we need to do is thank God for forgiving us of that sin and for His redeeming grace. If Christians will remember that the Holy Spirit within them knows their thoughts, hears every word they say, sees how they act and where they go, that should curb a lot of sinning. At the same time they should remember that God loves them unconditionally even though He knows everything about them.

      Take this survey. Ask the born again Christians out there if knowing that all their sins are forgiven forever, makes them want to sin.

      • Dear Sunrise,

        You keep repeating your perceptions and your theology on grace here. You keep saying you have no problem with Joseph Prince. You keep suggesting that I am afraid that if people hear teaching on grace they will want to sin. I teach on grace on this site. There is the TRUE grace of God and then there are those who turn the grace of God into lasciviousness or a license for sin.

        Joseph Prince teaches error. He says that repentance is not required for salvation. I quote him exactly on the video (now taken down). I refute this teaching on the video.

        Please answer this: Do you believe that Jesus can be your Savior but not your Lord? If you want to post on this topic, please deal with THIS ISSUE.

        • First of all, Michael, I know that you have a heart for God. Otherwise, you would not have this Internet site. I think you and I want the same thing. We want believers to have a faith that is genuine and whose lives honor God. However, a Christian has to be secure in his or her salvation. There are admonitions in the Bible for Christians and they should heed those admonitions, but not to keep their salvation. I have to ask: Do you believe a person can lose his or her salvation?

          To answer your question: No, He can’t be your Savior without being your Lord.

          [Back to Joseph Prince]

          I can’t possibly answer all your points in one sitting, it would be too much. So, I will just address the next thing. Joseph isn’t judging God that I can see. God is holy. It would be unlike God to be unholy is what I get out of it. He said, “I say this reverently”. In other words he meant no disrespect by that statement. If you will notice, he used the word “holiness” in reference to God several times. He knows God is holy and would never be unholy. He was actually presenting an impossible scenario and he knew it.

          Acts 13:36 – Therefore, let it be known to you brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins. [This verse has not been accurately quoted. Just thought I would let you know.]

          • Sunrise, I think so too: I think we both want believers to have a genuine faith and for their lives to honor God.

            Can you tell me where Paul or any of the apostles taught that it is important for anyone claiming to be a Christian to feel themselves ETERNALLY SECURE if they are not walking in love? I think I could point to plenty of Scriptures which point to the OPPOSITE.

            YES. I believe a person can lose their salvation. Absolutely it is possible. Many articles on my site refer to this conviction I have.

            Joseph Prince seems to be saying that if God is as I understand Him to be, then He would be unholy. So if I am right, Joseph Prince IS saying that God is unholy. If I am wrong, and Joseph Prince is right, then God's holiness means that he is cool with sin in believers, since He already paid for it. An interesting idea of holiness!

             

             

          • then there had to be REPENTANCE, not just the belief that all is now well thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus.

            An unsaved person lives for their own lusts or at least is at the steering wheel of their life to navigate where they will. They don’t want Jesus be the authority over their life. But the moment a person TRULY believes in Jesus, for who He is, and not merely as the provider of free get-out-of-jail-free cards, they will believe and receive Him as LORD as well as Savior. This is precisely the repentance that is necessary for salvation. It doesn’t imply a moral perfectness at all. It implies commitment to a person who is from now on going to teach, train and direct you (through the grace of God, through the Holy Spirit). People who don’t make that commitment ARE NOT SAVED, they DON’T BELONG to Jesus, and they SHOULD FEAR and flee from the wrath to come.

            This I believe and this is why I will always oppose those who say that repentance is not necessary for salvation. I don’t care if they have more followers than the Pope of Rome.

          • On Monday 11/14, you made this statement and I am quoting it exactly: “Joseph Prince teaches error. He says that repentance is not required for salvation.” Below is a paragraph where you quoted Joseph Prince. It is full of the words repent and repentance. I have capitalized them for emphasis.

            JP: Now Pastor Prince, the Bible teaches on REPENTANCE! Yes. REPENTANCE means change your mind. You know what? When Jesus came on the scene he said, “REPENT and believe the gospel”. Change your mind about saving yourself, about your self-effort, and believe the good news. REPENT and believe the gospel. Its REPENTANCE from unbelief, from not believing God is so good, from not believing that the news that God has given is so good, what Jesus did is so good, the effects is so good, REPENT of that, and start to believe the good news. Your sins are truly forgiven. Your sins are truly forgiven.

            Notice he mentioned “repent and believe the gospel” twice. Belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ is what saves a person and keeps them saved.

          • Did he say that this repentance (as he defines it) is required for salvation? If he doesn't, his other comments stand – where he basically pooh pooh's the idea of something besides his idea of believing being necessary. He mentions the word repentance in all sorts of incorrect and incomplete ways.

            John the Baptist defined repentance in terms of practical deeds renouncing the love of money. He didn't define it as simply giving up trying to be holy.

            If Joseph Prince thinks that repentance AS HE DEFINES IT is required for salvation (which I don't think he does), then he would believe that those who think you can't be a practicing adulterer and a heaven bound Christian are not really saved, because they don't believe the Good News – as he defines it.

            But if AFTER ALL Joseph Prince really DOES believe that there are some moral requirements of God that must be adhered to for a person to be right with God, let him say it. Otherwise, I take it that he believes you can be a practicing adulterer and go to heaven, as long as you have given up trying to save yourself and you believe that God has saved you by His grace.

          • JP: Let’s follow now. We are going back to early Christianity. Alright? Paul did not make conditions. Paul didn’t say “REPENT!” And if your heart is truly, truly, truly repentant (people laugh)… if you are really sincere … notice the full declaration of the free favor of God … immediate and eternal …

          • The verse Joseph Prince quoted is actually Acts 13:38. I would like to quote that again, but I would like to add verse 39. I thought you might find it interesting.

            Act 13:38-39

            Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

            And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

          • I wish you well. 

            "All that believe" does not include those who have ceased believing.

            "All that believe" does not include those who believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny. It is those who believe in Jesus. The actual Jesus who said all those things in the gospels – like Matthew chapter 7 for example. esp v21.

            Its very important that people have faith which is more than a mental agreement concerning certain facts combined with a certain presumption. Even the demons believe, and tremble. James said that a faith without works is dead faith, and cannot save.

            You cannot receive Christ as Lord without a serious change at the core of your being.

            Those who persist in wilful sin show that they do not truly believe in the real Jesus.

            There is a difference between believing that you are justified and believing in Jesus. A big difference.

            I have never maintained that a person can be justified by keeping the law. It is by real faith, real trust, real clinging to Jesus in dependence that this happens.

            Not sure if I have made myself clear to you, but I have tried.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            H.R. just to say ,the family of God don’t always agree on things,I cross that bridge myself every now and then,but God’s family should keep pressing for the mark,and wish you not to leave,your a Kings kid.( by the way some including me don’t know J.P be blessed

  7. Rather than just saying things like "Joseph Prince is a great guy" or "he's an awesome pastor", or "he's just like A.W. Tozer" I would appreciate if someone who disagrees with me would answer AT LEAST ONE OR TWO OF THE POINTS I raise in the main post of this site.

    So many times people are in love with ministry celebrities without really knowing what they believe AND WHY. We need to have reasons for what we believe. I have outlined some of mine.

    By "answering" I don't mean just stating your viewpoint, or repeating time-worn cliches of false grace preachers. I mean looking at what I say above and showing where the reasoning is faulty (if indeed it is).

    This is what I have done with the exact words Joseph Prince utters.  I quote them and then respond to them. I wonder why they took the video down? Did they have something to hide? Just as well I transcribed the relevant parts.

    • SETAPART4GOD says:

      True Grace Teaches us and empowers us to live,Righteously, Holy and Godly.

      Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
      Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

      • 100% correct.

        • lookingforhope2011 says:

          English Standard Version (©2001) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

          New American Standard Bible (©1995) “For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

          King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

          I know this scripture may have relevance to the current topic. But I posted three different translations of the same scripture. My point in doing so was because to me that scripture means we must always be striving to be more like Jesus. Although we fall we still must repent and go forward. Yes there is grace and mercy. But we mustcontinually strive for perfection

    • PraiseKingYeshua says:

      You are only hald quoting. I watched that entire broadcast more than once. I’m sorry but you need to listen more carefully and more than once. If JP isn’t for you, well ok, but he has greatly helped my walk w/ Jesus / Yeshua and I thank God for teachers like him. He isn’t the only I make sure to never miss. I love my church pastor, I really enjoy TD Jakes… Each teacher is a differnt kind of spiritual food and JP is kinda my meat and potatoes. I know this doesn’t give you what you want but I do think maybe you should always before listing to any teacher of God ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and make sure its Him and not a evil one in disguise.
      God bless you 🙂

      • PraiseKingYeshua,

        You didn’t respond to a single point from the post – I wonder if you read it, or if you are just a little simple?

        Sem

    • Joseph Prince isn’t discrediting the need for repentance but showing that God made a way through Jesus for us to be cleansed of our sin. What you are preaching is that we must work for salvation & forgiveness. We can’t do enough good to ever cleanse ourselves. He is trying to help people get out from bondage. You are missing the message he is trying to send. God did away with the law, sent Jesus to pay for our sins and then sent the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truths. You are trying to keep people in bondage to the law in which they can never obey perfectly. I’m sorry. But it sounds like you may need some guidance in the Spirit. Be careful who you accuse of heresy…. There is something you are afraid of. Something you do not understand. There is freedom (in righteousness) in the Spirit. Otherwise, the 10 commandments would have been enough without Jesus.

      • Joseph Prince is clearly teaching that you can be saved without repentance. Did you actually read the transcript?

        I am NOT preahcing that you must work for salvation and forgiveness. What I am saying is that real saving faith turns a person away from sin to God. Although no person lives perfectly, the basic orientation of the heart is towards God. Once a person gives themselves over to idolatry, they are NOT in Christ, they are unforgiven, and must repent.

        I am NOT saying we can cleanse ourselves. You have missed what I am saying. The Blood of Jesus cleanses us. But when we are cleansed, we are not still locked in defilement.

        You say, “God did away with the law”. Jesus said, “Do not think I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets”. There is a difference between what Jesus said and what you say. Its something like the difference between night and day.

        I am not trying to keep people in bondage to the law. I am telling people that they must put to death the deeds of the old man by the Spirit if they wish to live. Efforts to keep the moral of God do not save or make a person righteous. However, lawlessness guarantees a place in HELL. Matthew 7:21-23.

        Everyone needs guidance from the Holy Spirit, myself included. But that does not mean I have missed the teaching of Jesus on salvation. My claim is that Joseph Prince, who thinks he is the first one in a long time to get this message on grace right, has been deceived and is deceiving others.

        I am careful who I accuse of heresy. And yes, I accuse Joseph Prince of this, because his teaching is heretical.

        There is freedom in the Spirit. Its a freedom to stay away from sin, and do the will of God, which is good, pleasing and perfect. The ten commandments are not enough because they do not in themselves empower people to do the will of God. True grace does.

        • Penandink777 says:

          Dear Michael Fackerell,
          I thank you for this website. I did not know about Joseph Prince until last month. Today is Feb. 25, 2015. I realized that this is the work of the enemy to deceive some of God’s children that probably was not being led by the Spirit or who was carnal Christians (babies still on milk) who was glad to get Joseph Prince message which I do believe has helped them to lived a better life in Christ. I believe that they do have some trues but not the whole Truth. I have heard Joseph Prince say that “Grace is a Person,” and the length of your days is a Person and on TBN he called Grace “Mother Grace,” where the Mother Grace link has been taken down on must site but I did find one where he called Grace “Mother Grace.” Joseph Prince doctrines are starting to be called Princianism and his followers called Princian by some Christian communities.

          Mr. Fackerell, most of Prince followers will not test the spirit to test what Prince is saying is true or do the study the scriptures from the oppose Bible verses. Some of they are only going on what Prince says to define the scriptures for them because it goes with their flesh. Some of the followers of Prince only wanted to hear that their sins will never be held against them and that they have a license to sin. That is why I have come to the conclusion that this is bigger than Joseph Prince and that it is about the Prince of darkness/Father of lies/Deceiver because if Joseph Prince would change his mind about some of this teaching and find Bible verses to show that he was wrong some of his followers would fight him to keep his messages about all of your sins are forgiven.

          I do believe all sins are forgiven and you do not need to WORK FOR YOUR SIN TO BE FORGIVEN, but I do believe what Jesus and Paul said about the law. We are talking about the Jewish laws which there are three laws. The laws are written on our hearts not on table of stone. Christians forget that Jesus gave conditions (conditions is not works) the laws are still here but not the laws written on stone. We are called by our Westerns World to obey the laws of the lands. The law said do not kill and if people FULLY believe like Joseph Prince then they can go and kill people and not having to repent of this and if they stand in front of a judge and say, “I am a Christian, and I can do whatever sins I want to do because all my sins that I do in my life time has been forgiven and I don’t have to repent or confess them to anyone.” The judge would say they are crazy. Christians that has used or misused Joseph Prince teaching about all sins has been forgiven can be very dangerous with Christians that all the law has been done away with as do not kill, do not steal, etc., The laws are written on our heart and it is the principle that is kept that we know that it is not right to kill or steal and if we do this we repent from our ways, (the Holy Spirit living in us will condemn our killing someone) however you still will be lock up in prison in this world but you are made righteousness in the eyes of God through your true repenting of doing this wrong. However, some of Joseph Prince followers would do not believe that the Holy Spirit does not convict them of their sins, ” The Holy Spirit does not convict the believer of sin, but of his righteousness in Christ!” I want to say, I do not believe that all of Joseph Prince followers believe this but this is a distorting teaching from Mr. Prince which is from the Prince of darkness and Father of lies.

          Satan is using most of Joseph Prince to throw a blanket of Spritiual Sloth over some of his followers mind making them not to be alert and have no use to put on the Armor of God. Jesus and others in the Bible tells us to be on the alert! We are in a war and the best way to weaken the Army of God is to tell them to get comfort and not be on alert and tell them that their conditions and obeying the Captain of the Army (Christ Jesus) is that he is seen as a part of the Old Testament and take Paul word over Christ and forget that false teachers are among us and to believe the lie that there are NO FALSE STUDENTS from these false teaching. If there are FALSE TEACHERS THEN THERE ARE FALSE STUDENTS; the bible says do not be deceived and all who says Lord, Lord will not enter into the kingdom of God.

          Ephesians 6:10-18English Standard Version (ESV)The Whole Armor of God
          10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, . . . . . .(THIS IS NOT WORKS THESE ARE CONDITIONS THAT NEED TO BE PUT ON AGAINST THE PRINCE OF DARKNESS).

          Finally, I hope people will see that Joseph Prince is a false teacher that can say anything and some of his followers will not question him or test the spirit behind his teaching and they will usually get mad at others that says anything against his preaching by giving examples of their life or that we misunderstand what he is saying. They will defend anything he says, for example, “Grace is a person,” and the Bible does not say Grace is a person it does say God is Gracious. Joseph Prince has this power over some of his followers where they have made him their idol (their God). I have asked one of his followers to show me where does that say that in the Bible and they have to distort the word of God to try to make it says the things that Joseph Prince claims. Those followers of Joseph Prince has made him an idol (their God) because he can say anything through “fine-sounding arguments.

          There is so many bible verses that talk about how to be pleasing to God, being led by the Spirit, etc., it is like they don’t see it. People forget that their are false teacher among us. How do we know that they are false teachers, first we must get in the word we must read our Bible and pray “God show me your truth,” (some of Prince followers might feel like there is no need to pray to God because they will start to see this as works, “why do I need to fellowship with God IF all my sins present and future has been forgiven because I know I am saved and going to heaven their is no need to fellowship with God.) Mr. Fackerell I believe that this Joseph Prince is laying the foundation of the universal doctrine that “ALL WILL BE SAVED AND A LOVING GOD COULD NOT SEND ANYONE TO HELL AND. . . . . . . THERE IS NO HELL.” The bible talks about board is the way and narrow path. Below is a basic principles for testing the spirits from an old book found written over a 100 years ago.

          The Basic Principle for Testing Teachings by False Teachers . . . .one should asks has my favor author has or does the following. . . . .?
          a. Weaken the authority of the Scriptures;
          b. Distort the teaching in the Scriptures;
          c. Add to the Scriptures the thoughts of men; or
          d. Put the Scriptures entirely aside.
          Christians we must test the teaching of our favor Christian authors to see if their word lines up with the Word of God and pray for God to help you see a lie or a false teaching. I do want to say that any author can use false teaching but False Teachers or from the Satan.

          I know some Christian do not want to know the whole truth but only desires just enough trues that will not upset their comfortable unfruitful world. Some Christians in the Western world is only Christians by name and they are being led by their own flesh and they are not God’s sheep that hears his voice. God sheep that hears his voice do not think it as works to do his father will but pleasing to the Father.

          Blessing to you brother in the Lord and keep running the race as Paul said, so he would not be disqualify to receive a eternal crown.

          Penandink777 GodisLove

      • Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

        • Linda,

          Why did you post this? What do you think it means?

          Do you know, that all who are in Christ Jesus have died to the law?

          Sem

    • lee schroeder says:

      Michael,
      I am praying for you.
      Pastor Prince has uncovered with the Holy Spirit, so many beautiful things that give us revelation after revelation. Ask Jesus to help open your heart and mind, ask Him to breathe on the pages in the Bible when you read it, with an open heart. You will find Grace. Ask Him to give you new revelation, in Jesus name. He will help you understand His love for you better.
      With love,
      Lee Schroeder

  8. In your comments on Joseph Prince you brought up the Scriptures from 1 John Chapter 3. In verse 4 of that chapter, John gives us his definition of what sin is for this passage. I’m quoting from the King James Version, because it gives the best definition. The last part of the verse says: “…for sin is the transgression of the law.” Keep that in mind. Now I want to skip over to Romans 6:14. The apostle Paul, speaking to Christians, wrote: “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” We have to remember that the law is under the Old Covenant and grace is under the New Covenant. The Law shows us what sin is and will never be done away with for that reason. Grace gives us the way out from under sin. Notice I said “the way.” There is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ as you well know. I could say more about this, but I will stop here.

    • Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that  "not being under the law" implies that it is now impossible for Christians to sin?

      Paul explicitly says that he was not without law, under the law of Christ. Read 1 Corinthians 9.

      Any violation then of the commandments of Christ – any failure to be obedient, is SIN, it is TRANSGRESSION.

      Being under grace means that the power of God is so at work in your life that Christ lives through you and you put to death the deeds of the body, and take every thought captive to Christ.

      You are under a more powerful operation of God, not a less powerful one, when you are under grace. Under grace, God requires heart purity, not mere external observance.

       

      • Christians can sin, but their sins are not imputed to them. Imputed means their sins are not credited to them. They have been washed away by the blood of Jesus Christ. (Matt. 26:27-28) However, this does not give a Christian the liberty to live a sinful life. (Gal. 5:13) Christians who think they can live anyway they want to do not understand what they have hold of.

        You are right when you say that “any failure to be obedient” to the commands of Christ ” is sin.” However, grace cancels out those sins for the Christian, because the penalty for those sins have been paid for in the body of Christ on the cross. The non-Christian is under the Law given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. Therefore, their sins are credited or imputed to them. That means they are under condemnation in the eyes of God. Unless they repent and get forgiveness for their sins before they die, they will spend eternity in hell with the Devil and his angels. I would recommend that a lost person take the gift of salvation that God offers. It is an act of love from God to mankind.

        You are right when you say that the believer is “under a more powerful operation of God”. We got a deal from God that we did not deserve. For belief in His Son Jesus Christ we get all of our sins forgiven forever and a home in heaven with God and many other benefits here on earth. You can’t beat a deal like that. It is so good and so true.

        • So then, it IS possible for Christians to sin. So in the light of that, what does 1 John 3 say? 1 John 3 is talking about the practical difference between the righteous and the unrighteous. Those who keep on practing wilful sin, though they be "Christians" can have no true assurance of salvation, even if they believe that these sins are not imputed to them. It is not just that they "do not understand what they have hold of". They don't have hold of eternal life, rather, the devil has hold of them. They are slaves to sin, and prefer this slavery to Christ, and "will not abide in the house forever" (See John 8:30-34).

          There are plenty of sins which Christians commit which do not fall into the category of keeping on practicing wilful sin, and and these sins indeed are not imputed to them/us. I agree with that. But it would be dangerous to assume that anyone who believes that they are under grace IS under grace.

          What about the servants of God in Luke 12:40-47 who start to do the wrong thing towards the believers? Does God not impute their sin to them? Whether he "imputes" it or not, Jesus said that they are "cut in two" and "assigned a portion with the unbelievers / hypocrites". This is just one example of this teaching in the Bible.

          Paul also says that believers are chastened by the Lord when they sin, IN ORDER THAT THEY BE NOT JUDGED WITH THE WORLD. (1 Corinthians 11).

          I am placing emphasis on the need to repent. This is what Joseph Prince denies. You yourself said concerning the unbelievers, "Unless they repent and get forgiveness for their sins before they die, they will spend eternity in hell with the Devil and his angels." I agree with this, bu this is exactly what Joseph Prince DENIES. This is why he is very dangerous. For Joseph Prince, people just need to believe they are under grace and forgiven, and they are. He mocks the teaching that such people need to "repent". And you can observe the same tendency in some of the people who comment on this page, who I presume admire his teaching.

          • Remember in my first comment that I said John gave us the definition of what sin is in 1 John 3:4. I used the King James Version because it gives the best definition. The New International Version describes sin as “lawlessness”. The King James Version says “sin is the transgression of the law.” What law is it talking about? It’s talking about the law that God gave to Moses on Mt. Sinai. If you will take John’s definition of sin and substitute it for the word sin in 1 John 3:4-10, it will make more sense. For instance, I will use verse 5 as an example:
            1 John 3:5 says “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.”
            I will repeat the verse using John’s definition.
            “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our [transgressing of the law]; and in him was no [transgressing of the law].”
            When a person gets saved they come out from under the law as I have stated previously. That’s why a saved person can’t transgress the law. The law has been fulfilled for us through Jesus Christ. He kept all 613 laws. Since he is our substitute that means the saved person reaps the benefit of what Christ did. The saved person has fulfilled the laws righteous requirements through Jesus Christ. Because of what Jesus did for us, the saved person is no longer under the condemnation of the law. The saved person is no longer obligated to the law. Does that mean a Christian is free to live a reckless life?–NO!
            Sin has consequences for the Christian as well as the non-Christian. If a Christian steals something and gets caught for it, they will go to jail just as fast as a non-Christian who does the same thing. The only difference is that the Christian will not suffer eternal consequences for that sin, but the non-Christian will. However, stealing should not be the norm for a Christian. The more a Christian knows about Jesus the less he or she should be inclined to do that kind of thing.
            How can one find out more about Jesus? Read the Bible. God didn’t give us that Book for nothing. He meant for it to be read and meditated on regardless of whether or not we like to read.

          • It would be nice if you would also address my points above. Because the whole counsel of God should fit with your scenario. If it doesn't, it ought to be questioned.

            You are saying that "a saved person can't transgress the law". So even if a Christian steals or commits adultery, they are not transgressing the law, because that is impossible for a Christian. In most countries now sodomy is legal and enjoys a protected status. If a Christian engages in sodomy, there are no laws of the land to condemn him. Neither apparently are there any laws of God to condemn him. Because Jesus took away the authority of the moral law of God to say anything in such cases. He might get AIDS, but if he is careful and uses a condom, there will be no consequences. Because there is no such thing as a saved person violating the laws of God. If you are NOT saying this is true in this case, please explain what you ARE saying in this case.

            Furthermore, how do you harmonize this view with your earlier statement that the unbeliever must repent of his sins in order to be saved? He doesn't need to repent of anything except believing that the law condemns his sinful actions, if what you are saying is true.

             

             

          • lookinforacity says:

            A very simple question should be asked at this point.

            When we are trying to make a point, why use hypothetical extremes?

            Example:
            If a Christian Steals or commits Adultery, or engages in Sodomy ie, – (Homosexuality) (Bestiality).

            Aren’t these extremes when talking about the general population Christendom?

            A person should show the signs of the fruit of the Spirit in their life, if they call themselves Christian, if they are engaging in these practices, their Salvation should fall into question, ie were they ever Saved.

            Mat 7:18
            A good tree (CANNOT) bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

            Aren’t true Christians always questioning themselves and their actions, whether they conform to Christ?
            The simplest way I can express what I mean is.

            Would you ever conceder engaging in any of these acts, if the answer is NO, then the question is WHY?

            My answer would be NO, because I am a Christian.

            Not I am a Christian, and I can’t be held accountable for my actions.

            Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
            Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

            If through some miracle, you changed your mind today, and started to believe Christians cannot be held accountable for sin, would you run out and sin?

            Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is (CHRIST IN YOU THE HOPE OF GLORY):

            If Joseph Prince says turning from sin not necessary for justification or forgiveness, he is categorically wrong.
            (IT IS IMPOSSABLE TO GAIN JUSTIFICATION, UNLESS YOU FIRST ASK FOR FORGIVENESS OF SIN).

            JIM

          • Jim, I used the example of sodomy for several reasons. It was asserted that for christians transgression of the law was now impossible, but you might suffer punishment from on account of breaking the law of the land. This was an example of something that is not against the laws of the land now, but certainly against the laws of God. Now what do we say to the many homosexuals who feel called to the ministry, if for them nothing counts as transgression of the law? I could have used the example of adultery as well. Its not against the law of the land, but it sure is against the law of God, and all adulterers are hoping that God will say, "I accept you as an unrepentant adulterer, because you understood and believed that I was giving you as a Christian a free pass to sin" – these adulterers are in a delusion.

            But are these examples so hypothetical really? Hasn't the professing Christian church – including evangelical, mainline, protestant, pentecostal, charismatic and so on been significantly compromised from top to bottom by adulterers, homosexual offenders and the like? 

          • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

            Jesus himself declares and I am paraphrasing (for us to be perfect as our father in heaven is) Perfectionism includes, giving up all we have to follow Christ, loving him more than family, cutting out our eyes or cutting off the limbs that we have offended God with from our bodies, ( or the whole body will perish in hell) turning the other cheek,( even if enduring a brutal beating), lending something without asking for its return, not only walking a mile with your brother, but going the second one also, if you only own one coat, and it is is cold, give it to him along with your cloak or (blanket), perfectionism also includes not lusting, not lying, backbiting, gossipping, perfectionism includes , making no provisions for your future, visiting the sick, the prisoners, taking care of the widow, perfectionism includes staying married to a mate who may not cheat on you , but one that beats you without mercy……….. Read the new testement well, so many of us are guilty or the sins of ommision, that alone is enough to keep us out of heaven.
            HOW MANY OF US CAN LIVE UP TO EVEN A FEW OF THESE THINGS? I would like to ask you educated men some questions:
            Suppose you had a three year old child, and an intruder broke into your home and said to you “deny Christ or I will kill your child” How many of you would lie and deny Christ for the sake of your child’s life, or would you lie and put your child first and save it’s life.
            Another question. If you mowed lawns for a living, and needed your equipment everyday to make your living, and your neighbor needed to borrow your equipment for just a week, would you let him? and let your family do without, according to Christ himself, you should,
            One more question, if you are a woman who is being beaten repeatedly by your husband, are you to just stand there , turn the other cheek and let him kill you? according to the teaching of Christ, yes you are. Now some of you may not have experienced any of these scenerios, but I have. The last one. If I would not have fought my husband back, (former husband who is now deceased) I would be dead today, and my children motherless. Even with me fighting back I still ended up with broken ribs, blot clots, a broken tail bone etc. But according to the scripture, if I am to make it into heaven, I should have just let him kill me and given up the ghost right at those times, because I could not leave and divorce him according to the teachings of Christ. Is Christ going to condemn me to hell for defending myself. I was not perfect as Christianity teaches us to be, or I would have gladly turned the other cheek. I did not stand still and take those beatings without giving up a fight. One more question, if you are a good man or woman who has lived what you consider a perfect life, and one day you are watching t.v. and a beautiful woman or man appears in a commercial, half -naked and you think WOW………., and you drop over dead at that second from a heart attack, are you destined for hell, because you slipped up at the moment of your death. Perfectionsim the way the New Testement teaches would not even allow us to turn our tv’s own or go to a movie. How many of us, just sit there, though right through the swearing, nudity, partial nudity, sensuality of commercials, or even football games or wrestling matches. Yes, those are sinful too. Those cheerleaders are so vulgar, and most of them are half naked, along with the women in wrestling, yet I know a lot of men who justify it, even subscribe to Sports Illustrated and keep the Swimsuit addition. If you died with that porn in your house would you make it into heaven. None of us are perfect or ever will be, I think we can try to achieve it , but it is an impossibility. We would have to totally cut ourselves off from this society, to even achieve partial perfectionism. So anyone who thinks they can be perfect, or will be is fooling themselves. Strive for it yes, achieve it no. The question here is though, if we are taught by Jesus that we must be perfect, and we can not! How are any of us going to make it into heaven????? I guess we could start by throwing out our tvs, not going to the beach, walking around with our heads down while we are in public, giving away our homes and possessions and expecting someone else out there to take care of us, because we have given up all for Christ. And WE ARE suppose to give up all and follow him. All this confusion is sending me back to the synagogue, because not only did Jesus not do away with the old law, he added a bunch of new laws that are not acheivable. At least not some of them. I am not angry with what I read on hear, but it confuses me terribly. I really do think I feel more peace in a synagogue than in a chuch after rereading some New Testemant Scriptures. Christianity is so divided, Judaism was not., it was not about a blind faith , but one law, and that law taught men to love God, and that is all that he requires , (I believe) a humble heart, trying to do our best and asking for forgivness when we err. In Chrisianity, you always have one foot on a banana peel and the other one headed for hell, no matter how hard you try. sincerely, Zoey (forgive the typing, I have had a rough night)

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            If it were not possible,then how can Christ say be ye perfect,he would not tell you to do something you could not do. 1st God will not put on you more than you can bare,as far as the silly comments, 2nd if you are saved,santified and baptized for real you will walk in the Spirit and you would not be bound to have to sin anyway. 3rd to be perfect to man is impossible,but the commandment was to be perfect in the sight of God.Jesus said be ye perfect asyour father in heaven is perfect. So someone is wrong,guess who,

          • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

            If we could be perfect, Eve would not have sinned, nor would Adam, and Christ would not have had to die on the cross for our sins. I am sure if the world could look at all our lives, as God see us, our secret sins that we commit, and we think no one knows? Yes, if the people of the world could see us all in our sin, including you, and record it all, and play it for the rest of the world to see, I venture to say you would not want your life on the big screen. Unless of course, I am speaking to Jesus himself. sincerely, Anistan

          • Is this comment for Michael or for Sunrise? I’m a little confused. I don’t recall talking about perfection.

          • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

            Hello Sunrise,
            I like your name. To be honest I have gotten so confused in these conversations that I do not know who I was responding too. lol
            Thank you for your kindness, I will try and get that book. I clicked on your profile, and such a peaceful feeeling came over me. Your sweet spirit makes it’s presence known miles away. God Bless you, Zoey
            I hope we engage in conversations in the future, you seem very wise.

          • I like helping people and doing things for the Lord. I give your compliment to Jesus. He’s the one who gives me wisdom. Thanks.

          • ICUmockwowSR says:

            What an interesting discussion about GRACE.

            I, even with so much going on, feel very passionate about this, truth about Grace. This is to ALL, not any one person, but any of the Multiple Personalities present. I’ll refer to each side of this “discussion” as “PG” – partial grace and “FG” – full grace. (FG being along the same lines that Sunrise ‘seems’ to believe.)

            Why, I wonder is there such a polarization when it comes to this subject?

            I think… it’s because Jesus is “The Way” and he revealed the way is through Him, by GRACE (FG). FG is simple and unless mutated or distorted to be something else, it’s a threat to Satan and his mission. If he can keep Christians “busy” and “distracted” trying to “do good” in the flesh then he (satan) is successful in this critical area that is key to Gods people being victorius while here on earth. If we are constantly trying to “stay saved” we can’t experience the “new dimension” i/e the new life we have through our new birth. Satan wants to keep us from understanding who we are and from walking as the new creation that we’ve become and wants to blind us to the TRUTH of “The Way” that was given to us by Jesus.

            Some people call it “easy believism”…so what, why shouldn’t it be?

            Jesus said in- Mt 11:30 “For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

            We’ve entered into a time of rest, from works.

            Grace is easy.

            When we are born again, saved or whatever term you prefer…It is our SPIRIT that I a born again NOT our body or flesh/soul…not our mind, will or emotions. Remember we are to render (consider) our flesh as dead…even to consider our body as a “body of death”.

            Please indulge me to ask a few questions. My answers are below.

            1. Is your born again spirit perfect?
            yes/no/maybe

            2. Can your “Born Again Spirit” sin?
            yes/no/maybe

            3. Is your identity in Christ?
            yes/no/maybe

            4. Can the part of you that “you identify with Christ Jesus” sin?
            yes/no/maybe

            5. If you consider or identify yourself with your SPIRIT, i/e thats “who you are”, can that part of YOU sin?
            yes/no/maybe

            6. If that is NOW who YOU are, can YOU sin?
            yes/no/maybe

            NY ANSWERS
            1. Is your born again spirit perfect?
            yes/no/maybe
            (my answer, yes..because my spirit has been born again, perfected)

            2. Can your “Born Again Spirit” sin?
            yes/no/maybe
            (my answer, no…it has been reborn in perfection and is now righteous in Christ Jesus)

            3. Is your identity in Christ?
            yes/no/maybe
            (my answer, YES of course!)

            4. Can the part of you that “you identify with Christ Jesus” sin?
            yes/no/maybe
            (my answer, No…because the part of me that I hold as my identity is my SPIRIT.)

            5. If you consider or identify yourself with your SPIRIT, i/e thats “who you are”, can the SAVED part of YOU sin?
            yes/no/maybe
            (my answer, no…I am a new creature a born again spirit even though I must contend with this “body of death” as long as my spirit lives in it!)

            6. If that is NOW who YOU are, can YOU sin?
            yes/no/maybe
            (my answer, NO. I, as a born again Christian, cannot sin, BUT this body of flesh I contend with CAN! Those sins are NOT imputed against ME, but this body of death and will affect me, my life and this body of death as long as it’s with me, but that sin has NO standing in the relationship between me and God because thats a SPIRITUAL relationship.)

            a couple of final notes.

            There nothing good in the flesh, our flesh hates God, therefore do you think you can NOT sin, avoid sin, resist temtation by the WILL of your flesh? No. The WILL of the flesh “wants to sin”. It’s only by Grace that we can NOT sin, or stop sinning. The question then becomes, what rules you? You can’t serve two masters. Does your spirit reign or your flesh? It can be a tug of war, for even Jesus was tempted by Satan. This was the battle that Paul was talking about when he was in such angst over “doing what he didn’t want to do (his flesh) and not doing what he did want to do (his spirit)!

            My last question, I promise….

            If YOU had a choice? If God asked YOU “__name___”, What would you “prefer” to be the truth? PG or FG
            Your answer to this, believe it or not, says volumes!

            I hope this is recieved in love, even in times of crisis….may God Bless you ALL abundantly!

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            either Jesus lied or you do not know the power of God or Know that man will always find fault,but we are judged by God not man. sin will not enter in to heaven,so your in or out,sin or sinless.period

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            to whom it may concern,anyone who says man is still bound that they must sin,has not been santified by God and don’t know about it nor experenced it

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            That’s a great post; simple and to the point. People are looking for side doors into Heaven, but there aren’t any. God and sin don’t mix. People need to be washed in the blood of the Lamb so that sin nature can be squelched once and for all.

          • Wow. You have been through quite a challenge. I have no idea what it would be like to go through something like that. I wish things like that would not happen to people, but I can tell you that the destructive force behind your situation did not come from God, but satan. Some people don’t realize how much he hates mankind. He is out to kill, steal, and destroy. Does God care about your situation? Yes! The fact that you are alive shows He cares.

            There is a book out by Mike Evans called “The Light”. Mike is Jewish and he heads up The Jerusalem Prayer Team. He acts as an ambassador between Israel and other nations. He lives here in the United States. Right now he is trying to help Israel keep their land. That said I will tell you a little of what the book is about. Mike was raised in the home of an abusive father who almost killed him, but God rescued him just like he rescued you. I think this book would help you. It should be on the Internet. Try typing The Jerusalem Prayer Team in the address box and see if that will get you to the book. By the way this book is written in fictional form to protect the privacy of those involved in his life, but the events are real.

            I pray that God will heal you of the wounds inflicted on your body and your emotions and your family.

          • Hi Zoey, some of the issues you raise are quite difficult. But yes, it is NOT spiritually safe to watch TV most of the time. David said, "I will set no unclean thing before my eyes" (Psalm 102). And going to the beach and baring your body is probably not going to help some people. The difference with the beach (sometimes) and TV is that many TV shows are designed to stir up lust, whereas at the beach, lust is not usually a big part of it. Mind you, my wife won't go to the beach as people do, and I applaud her choice.

            If we are going to aim for perfection (though we don't achieve it), the way to do it is by going after the Spirit of God and not by self-effort.

            We are supposed to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. This is done by going after the fullness of the Spirit, since our own natural energy and power will never be able to do the will of God.

            This are three choices people make, only one is good.

            1. To go after the flesh

            2. To go after the law (in the power of the flesh).

            3. To go after the Spirit and let the Spirit renew us and transform our minds so that we progressively conform to the image of Jesus Christ – not as we think we must, but as the Spirit thinks.

             

             

          • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

            I will never understand the perfection part of Christianity. It is something I have read , worried and cried over for years. If if were not for a dream that God allowed me to have when I was in my early 20’s, I would probably have given up all together. In this dream I was standing on a bank of a river alone. I saw a blind man being pulled to the other side by a cross he was clinging too. That is when I realized that I should just hold onto that cross (for then I thought Jesus was crucified on a cross, now I know different) but at the time God allowed me to see what I would relate too. SO, I hold onto that cross and my prayer is a lot of times, simply “God have mercy on me a sinner” I will never understand much of the Bible, but my ignorance at it, does not stop me from reading and trying. We all have differences of opinions, different ways we interpret different things, and allowing one another this indulgence, is what keeps us all brothers and sisters. My favorite scripture is “now we see through a glass darkly……. One day I will understand it all. I hope my comments have not offended anyone, sometimes I am too outspoken and possess no filter on my mouth; Something I must work harder at. God Bless you and your chaste, modest wife. You are blessed to have a woman like her with such strong convictions, by your side. I am opting out of the perfection conversations, but will read the rest of the comments with silence. Sincerely, Zoey

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            1 John 1:5-10 AMP

            And this is the message [the message of promise] which we
            have heard from Him and now are reporting to you: God is Light, and there is no
            darkness in Him at all [no, not in any way]. [So] if we say we are partakers together and enjoy fellowship with Him when we live and move
            and are walking about in darkness, we are [both] speaking
            falsely and do not live and practice the Truth [which the
            Gospel presents]. But if we [really] are living and
            walking in the Light, as He [Himself] is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken]
            fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ
            His Son cleanses (removes) us from all sin and guilt [keeps
            us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations]. If we say we have no sin [refusing to admit that we are
            sinners], we delude and lead ourselves astray, and the Truth
            [which the Gospel presents] is not in us [does not dwell in our hearts]. If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and
            promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously]
            cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in
            purpose, thought, and action]. If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word
            and make Him out to be false and a
            liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our
            hearts].

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Zoey

            Before the fall everything God created was perfect, Adam & Eve were created perfect, upon the fall everything became blemished because of their sin, falling into corruption from that point on.

            Is it possible for man to be perfect?

            Gen 6:9
            These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and (PERFECT) in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

            Noah was Perfect.

            Gen 17:1
            And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou (PERFECT).

            God commanded Abraham to be perfect.

            2Sam 22:33
            God is my strength and power: and (HE MAKETH MY WAY PERFECT).

            David says God makes his way perfect, that is what happens when we let God light our path, leading us.

            1Ki 11:4-10
            4) For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives (TURNED AWAY HIS HEART AFTER OTHER GODS): and (HIS HEART WAS NOT PERFECT WITH THE LORD HIS GOD), as was the heart of David his father.
            5) For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
            6) And (SOLOMON DID EVIL) in the sight of the LORD, and (WENT NOT FULLY AFTER THE LORD), as did David his father.
            7) Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
            8*) And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.
            9) And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because (HIS HEART WAS TURNED FROM THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL), which had appeared unto him twice,
            10) And had (COMMANDED HIM) concerning this thing, that (HE SHOULD NOT GO AFTER OTHER GODS): but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

            Solomon’s heart was turned away from following God, therefore his heart was no longer perfect, (single).
            Solomon’s heart was perfect, until he though he could control his own life, after all he was King wasn’t he.

            Mat 6:24
            No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

            Solomon tried to please his wives in worshiping other Gods, God says.

            Exo 20:3
            Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

            Gal 3:3
            Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

            Perfection is not that which is to be found of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

            Php 3:12
            Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

            As long as we are still in the flesh (body), we cannot attain the true perfection, but we are in the Spirit if we are in Christ.

            Php 3:15
            Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

            We are Perfect in Christ, through the Spirit of God, for we walk in the Spirit.
            Through singleness of mind, keeping our eyes on the Lord.

            Mat 14:30
            But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

            PERFECT:
            H8549
            Entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: – without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole, single.

            Again:

            Gal 3:3
            Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

            When you say:
            “All this confusion is sending me back to the synagogue”

            The only thing the Synagogue has are the 613 commandments and various forms of rabbinic law.
            No one can keep the law.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

            Noah after the flood, planted a vineyard, became drunk and his son came in and looked upon his father’s nakedness (looked upon the nakedness, no one knows for sure what that means) this does not sound like a perfect man to me.

            King David slept with another man’s wife , got her pregnant and then had the man killed on the front line of battle, to cover his sin. He does not sound too perfect either.
            Maybe we should concentrate on Joseph, if we are looking for perfection, he rejected the seducing of the queen,( or whatever title she held) for he knew sleeping with her was wrong. Yes, if anyone were close to perfection, it would be Joseph, men should aspire to be as him, not using David and Noah to pattern themselves after.
            I am still a Christian, but go to the synagogue to let the old teach me the new. sincerely, Zoey

          • Read the book of Romans.

          • Again you don't address my points. But I will address yours.

            Here are some parts of the book of Romans that many people leave out in their theology.

             

            Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 
            Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 
            Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 
            Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 
            Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 
            Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God. 
             
            Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 
            Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 
             
            Rom 3:31  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. 
             
            Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 
            Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 
            Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 
             
            Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
            Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 
            Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
            Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
            Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 
            Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 
            Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 
            Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 
             
            Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 
            Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 
             
            Rom 15:18  For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, 
             
            Under the New Covenant, God is looking for people who will truly walk by faith, and through the Spirit turn to God. This results in a holy life.
             
            The ones God truly justifies go on to live this life of faith, unless they reject faith, and go either towards legalism or carnality.
             
            I am presenting a side of the Book of Romans that not many preach on, because it is consistent with the words of Jesus about losing your life, denying yourself and so on, which is the part false grace preachers want to hide or deny.

             

          • In Romans chapter 1, Paul is telling the Gentile Christians how the Gentiles got into the shape they were in before Christ. At the beginning of Chapter 2 Paul says this, “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man whosoever thou art that judgest.” According to Scofield, Paul is talking to Gentile pagan moralizers. (Romans 2:1-16) A key verse is found in the passage below.
            For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. Romans 2:12
            Take the first part of that verse: “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law.” This section is talking about the people from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, because there was no law at the time.
            Take the second part of that verse: “… and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.” This is talking about the people from the time of Moses to the time of Jesus before his crucifixion and resurrection. The law was given to the Jews at Mt. Sinai. To be judged by the law is to fall under condemnation, because the law has no mercy. If a person breaks one, that person breaks all. The law demands perfection. This is why the world needs Jesus.
            What it’s saying is that both Gentile and Jew are in the same “boat.” So whether there is a law to obey or no law to obey, both perish. The only thing that will stop the perishing is belief. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. There was no law for Abraham to live by during his time. Belief is what saved him.
            Talking about Romans 2:28-29
            My son was circumcised when he was a baby. The doctor removed the foreskin and he threw it away. It will never be a part of my son again. Just as the foreskin is removed by the doctor in physical circumcision, God removes a persons’ sinful nature from him or her when that person gets saved. Just as the foreskin will never be a part of a male child again, so the sinful nature will never be a part of the Christian again. Check this out at Colossians 2:11. Therefore a real Jew is one who has been circumcised by Christ not by some human hands in physical circumcision.
            Talking about Romans 3:31
            “The sinner establishes the law in its right use and honour by confessing his guilt, and acknowledging that by it he is justly condemned. Christ, on the sinner’s behalf, establishes the law by enduring its penalty, death.” [Taken from the Scofield King James Version of the Bible, page 1195, footnote 5]
            Talking about Romans 6:1-3
            We are not to abuse our freedom in Christ. Any Christian who does will not get by with it. God will discipline that person Himself. A Christian’s life either honors God or dishonors Him. He will not stand for being dishonored. That’s why He allowed the Babylonians to take the Israelites into captivity in the Old Testament.
            Talking about Romans 8:2
            “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

            Notice the phrase “free from.” It speaks for itself. (For the sake of space and time I am stopping here.)

          • Much of what you say here is of course true. But again, you’ve avoided almost all my points, you gloss over many of the Scriptures which call into question the easy-believism doctrines.

          • If you will kind of make a list of the points you think I have avoided, I will try my best to respond. I may have to break it up into to sections, because the shorter the information the easier it is to read. Also, some things are hard to explain in just a few words.

          • SETAPART4GOD says:

            We should never strive over the law of old.It is perfect,but it is done away with,The new has come a more excellent way the law of Grace.
            With God’s Grace we must walk in the new creation or the new man where Grace has made us free to live Holy and righteous.

            Tts 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

            Tts 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
            Tts 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
            Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
            Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

            Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
            Tts 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
            Tts 3:9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            santification by the HolyGhost changes the sin nature of man,this was not available to everyone in the old testiment,only the prophets,but is available in the new,but it is not automatic at salvation,it is a seperate work that must be sought for. many bypass this and claim baptism of the Spirit,which is fools gold,

          • SETAPART4GOD says:

            True Grace Teaches us and empowers us to live,Righteously, Holy and Godly.

            Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
            Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

          • ICUmockwowSR says:

            Bible 101: You must understand the diff between spirit vs flesh.

            Why do you go to such extremes and get all twisted up using sexual sin to prove your point? I mean this with all “due” respect, but it seems when I read your post you are continually fixated on homosexuality and adultery. Just an observation.

            FYI: You do know that oral sex is also sodomy right? and Sodomy isn’t just a homosexual act? Just sayin’….

          • When I look back over the last 25 years of my Christian experience in pentecostal churches, I see amongst leaders that were highly respected the following that they were exposed with:

            1. Paedophilia – by a pastor who was almost worshiped in the Assemblies of God in Australia, so highly was he revered at one stage.

            2. Adultery – by a man who was at one time head of the Australian Christian churches, a fancy umbrella movement that incorporated the Assemblies of God. Also by one of the most famous worship leaders in the Australian scene who pioneered a Christian brand that is known the world over.

            3. Homosexuality – by an evangelist who was also highly respected in Australia as such, and now sees himself as an ambassador for the gay community to the church.

            We could speak of marriage breakups, divorce. We could speak of businessmen cheating.

            Am I extreme?

            These were the leaders in Australia! I don't know if the scene is much better in America. It seems that many of the famous pastors there don't have a clue about whether Mormons are saved, they die of drug overdoses and get caught sleeping with homosexual prostitutes, etc etc.

            Could this be in part the fruit of a doctrine that says that your salvation is secure, and so is probably everyone else's who mentions the name of Jesus and says they believe in him?

             

            Twisted Up?

            Did the Holy Spirit tell you I am all twisted up about sex? My conscience is clear on this matter. I am seriously grieved with the kind of teaching that leads to the practice of these sins at all levels in the church. One could go on about cheating, lying, thieving "Christian" businessmen scammers, and so much more, but what's the point? The Bible itself refers to sexual sin often enough. Its a serious problem when more than half of the professing Christian men in the church are addicted to internet pornography at some level.

            As long as people who set their minds on and follow the flesh think its no big deal, we are going to have these kinds of problems. We will never have a spiritual revival as long as the professing church is relaxed about sin.

          • ICUmockwowSR says:

            NOT fixation? Paedophilia-Homosex-Adultery-Prostitution-Porn…plus you listed ask bunch of exceptional cases ALL high leadership in hi profile ministries! We’re just ordinary people here, ok.

            Re: Your quote, statement pasted below.

            Have you EVER heard a Christian say they believe this? Thats so far off from whats been said by anyone in this thread. Why do you mis-represent whats being expressed here?

            You seem really bitter…

            MICHAEL QUOTE:
            As long as people who set their minds on and follow the flesh think its no big deal, we are going to have these kinds of problems. We wil never have a spiritual revival as long as the professing church is relaxed about sin.”

            Really, have you ever had a Christian say that their view of grace?

            It sounds like the heathen who rant about hypocrites in the church when they hear about one sinning! When it’s just a way for the heathen to justify and feel better about his own shortcomings, bitterness and unforgiveness.

          • These verses say, "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil."

            Isn't this saying exactly the opposite of what you say the passage means? Isn't this saying that those who come and say you can be righteous while flagrantly transgressing the moral law of God are practicing DECEPTION on this key issue?

            John's whole letter seems to be guarding AGAINST the antinomian ideas of people like Joseph Prince. If you negated every verse in 1 John 3 you would be closer to what these antinomians ACTUALLY teach.

             

          • Who are the little children in verse 7? The answer is they are Christians. But, you have to back up to verse 6 to get the full meaning.

            Whosoever [speaking of the Christian] abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever [speaking of the non-Christian] sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

            Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7

            Notice that John said “let no man deceive you.” He didn’t specify as to whether this person was a Christian or non-Christian. We’re not to let anybody deceive us. Deceive us about what? What does the next part of the verse say? It says that “he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. Since it is God who declares a person righteous, then no one has the right to say he or she is not righteous.

            I know what people have a problem with about this passage found in 1 John 3. This Passage has to be taken at face value. For instance, the first sentence in 1 John 3:6 says “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not.” Christians have a problem reconciling that with the fact that they do sin on occasion. I don’t see a problem with it myself, because I interpret it according to John’s definition.

            If a so-called Christian is not living right, God will deal with that person. He will not let this person keep living in this manner. He will punish that person as a father disciplines his child, only He will do it with love and compassion. His punishment will be just and fair. There are weak brothers in the faith, which need help staying on track.

          • So are you saying that "he who DOETH not righteousness is righteous because God has already declared him righteous"

            Lets read verse 7 and compare to that statement above:

            "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who PRACTICES righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil."

            Lets go to the Book of Romans:

            Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 

            Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 
            Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 
            Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 
             
            What Paul addresses in the Book of Romans is that the law is powerless to deliver the sanctification and the justification we need. It is through indwelling Holy Spirit and the cross of Christ that these things happen.
          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi ALL

            While what everyone is saying, is true.
            Paul summed up this dichotomy very nicely in Rom. 7

            Rom 7:25
            I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

            His statements take care of both sides of the equation, (FLESH) – (SPIRIT)

            On the one hand, the flesh will continue to go through the motions of sin until the day of our physical death.
            Because of our sin nature which we acquired through the fall of Adam. Our flesh is prone (bound) to sin.

            On the other hand, our spirits become alive through Christ at Salvation, from that point on, we also walk in the Spirit.

            Rom 8:9
            But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

            Gal 5:16
            This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

            Gal 5:24
            And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

            Rom 5:13
            For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

            Gal 2:19
            For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

            Rom 6:14
            For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            HI JIM,

            People who support the idea of being a sinning Christian often cite Romans 7 to bolster their argument. However, Romans 7 is Paul describing his old man under the law. Romans 8, on the other hand, describes Paul’s victory under grace. It’s God’s grace that affords the believer to live a holy and righteous life, and it comes from the powers in Jesus’ divine blood. People who still walk in sin have not been set free by Jesus’ blood; they’re still slaves of sin, which is the work of the devil.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Steve

            You have made two statements:
            1) “People who support the idea of being a sinning Christian often cite Romans 7 to bolster their argument.”
            2) “People who still walk in sin have not been set free by Jesus’ blood; they’re still slaves of sin, which is the work of the devil.”

            Therefore a question.
            Have you sinned snce you became saved, will you sin in the future?

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Hi JIM,

            Your question is very common among those who support the idea that one can be a sinning Christian and still make it to heaven. I will give you the Word:

            1 John 5
            [18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
            [19] And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
            [20] And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Steve

            I’m going to make this very simple for you.

            I challenge you, to show me where I said, or even espoused, advocated, or sanctioned.

            “one can be a sinning Christian and still make it to heaven.”

            ********************************************
            Please don’t clump me in with the “those who support” group.
            I only ask questions, to gain information on what people think.
            I would sincerely like to know what, and why you think what you do, on the subject.

            You have not answered my question, so I will rephrase it for you.

            Do you sin, ask forgiveness and repent on a regular basis, since you became a Christian, if so, will you continue this practice in the future?

            If the answer is no, please explain why.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

            Hi Steve

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Hi JIM,

            I am glad that you are not one of the many who claim that sinning Christians are heaven bound, as their mere profession of Jesus lacks faith — and that’s why they are still dead in their sins. If they really found old time salvation, then the blood of Jesus would wash them clean — and keep them clean.

            Regarding your question, I do not willfully sin. I would rather die than do that; in fact, I would die spiritually if I did. The grace of God would lift and my soul would no longer be protected by the blood of the Lamb.

            Now, there are times when I am uncertain if I took the right course of action on a particular matter; so, when I ponder about it afterwards (examining myself), I will ask God for forgiveness if I handled things wrong. I also ask Him to help me to understand how to handle matters going forward in a manner pleasing to Him. Oh Lord, make my paths plain. My desire is to be a vessel meet for the Master’s use. Amen.

            In conclusion, to willfully sin after salvation will take a person out of God’s grace; that’s why prayer, fasting and living in the Word are essential to maintain one’s salvation, lest the thief comes and take your free gift of salvation from you due to your negligence and/or indifference.

          • God does the keeping of our salvation as the passages indicate below.

            John 10:28-29
            And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

            My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand.

            1Peter 1:3-5
            Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
            To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
            Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

            Jude vs. 24 and 25
            Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
            To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

            I hope these verse give you the confidence that your salvation is secure.

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            But, you left out the condition:

            John 10:27 – My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

            Jesus’ sheep follow Him, and thus they obey Him. Therefore, no one can pluck a child of God out of Jesus’ hand; but, one’s own disobedience can.

          • I’m glad you mentioned sheep. Since you mentioned sheep, I will relate a little story.

            Let’s say that a man went out and bought a herd of sheep. As soon as he buys them they become his sheep, because he paid a certain price for them. When he gets them home, he puts his mark on them. (This is actual fact.) The shepherd then teaches the sheep to respond to his voice, so that when he calls them they will come and follow him. Whenever he takes the sheep out to pasture or to the watering place, he takes two tools with him: a rod and a staff. What is the purpose of this rod and staff? Read below.

            From http://bostonbiblegeeks.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/the-strange-comfort-of-the-rod-and-staff/

            “I think we have two pictures here with the rod and staff: protection and correction. The protection motif is easy enough to understand; when a dangerous animal would threaten the sheep, the shepherd’s job is to ward off the potential (or real) attack. A rod could certainly be used for this, along with something like a sling and stone (think: David). I suppose it’s easy enough to see how comfort could be drawn from the knowledge that the shepherd stands ready with rod in hand.”

            “The shepherd uses the staff to prod a straying sheep. When the sheep would wander off the path, away from the rest of the group, it put itself in danger. It doesn’t realize there is danger in separating from the group and out of sight of the shepherd. But the danger is nonetheless quite real; the sheep could fall into a pit or into the jaws of a wolf.”

            “So the staff provided comfort in an unusual way. The shepherd used the staff to “encourage” the sheep to rejoin the safety of the flock. This would mean, of course, poking or perhaps even whacking the sheep. That staff would actually cause some level of physical pain for the sheep– comfort, indeed! I’m not saying that the shepherd would lean back and tee off like a home run derby contestant, but we can’t exactly call it a gentle massage, either. Pain? Sure, but for the right purposes. That is where true comfort is found.”

            Now just because a sheep strays off on occasion, doesn’t mean that the sheep no longer belongs to the man who bought him. The same thing applies to the Christian.

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Romans 8:12-14 – Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

            It’s that simple; if you live after the flesh, you’re going to perish, no matter how much you profess Jesus’ name.

          • I thought the following article might be of help to you also.

            Jesus, Our Faithfulness
            By Bob Phillips
            Almost all of our teaching and thinking on the atonement concerns what Jesus took away. He did take something away, but if we are going to walk in the Christian life and move away from elementary things, we might do well to understand what he came to do. He came to fulfill faithfulness. The whole meaning of atonement is found in the word faithfulness. Praise God that he has replaced our unfaithfulness with faithfulness. What the covenant means and what the atonement means is that when God proclaimed to Jesus, “Thou art my beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased” (Luke 3:22), He also looks at Bob Phillips and says, “Thou art my beloved son, in thee I am well-pleased.” [Bob is a Christian.]

            We want to be more and more conformed to being like Jesus. But then we realize that conformity depends upon our obedience to God. So, in trying to be more obedient to God, the more we try to reckon on our own faithfulness, the more discouraged we get. We find that we cannot be faithful to God even in the little things. Satan knows our sins are forgiven, but he has tried to get us to concentrate so much on what was taken away that we have absolutely forgotten what has put into us—faithfulness: God Himself. Even when we are unfaithful, He is faithful. The covenant relationship we have with God is not between us and God; it is between God the Father and God the Son. And it is based upon absolute, total faithfulness.

            Taken from the Fulness magazine, page5, back in the early 1980’s
            This magazine is no longer available

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Steve

            Curious about this statement of yours.
            “prayer, fasting and living in the Word are essential to maintain one’s salvation, lest the thief comes and take your free gift of salvation from you”

            When I read the following by Paul, I do not see any grounds where the thief, (Satan?) has any right saying he can steal my Salvation.

            Rom 8:38,39
            38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
            39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            Are there scriptures that say he can?

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            what does this site think of christian hard rock music

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            To JIM ~~ 1 Peter 5:8-9 – Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

            If one becomes negligent and/or indifferent, the devil will devour. These warnings aren’t in the Bible to just fill up the pages. Had Eve not let down her guard, then she would not have fallen from grace.

          • Since you brought up Eve, here is a bit of information about her. The woman wasn’t named Eve until after the fall. (Genesis 3:20) But, anyway, what caused the man and woman to sin?

            God had put his Spirit into them, so they had His divine nature. They couldn’t blame it on the divine nature. Also, there was no law at the time. Actually there was no need for a law, because they were both perfect before the fall. How is it that they fell without a law to break?

            However, they were given two commands. The first command was: Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. The second command was: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

            So, again I ask, what caused them to sin? Is Adam and Eve in heaven today? If so, what saved them?

          • 33sjoyfulservant says:

            You can find this answer here: http://carm.org/were-adam-and-eve-saved

            I’ll explain why they did in fact break many laws.
            Eve, in her developing resentment against God, fell into Satan’s trap, both taking away from God’s Word and adding to it. God had said they could “freely eat” of “every tree” (Genesis 2:16); Eve quoted him as saying they could eat of the trees. God had said they should not eat of the fruit of one tree; Eve added the statement that they should not even touch it. These are the very sins God warned about after His written Word was finally completed (Revelation 22:18,19). 1) Doubting God’s Word, 2) augmenting, 3)then diluting, and finally 4)rejecting God’s Word–this was Satan’s temptation and Eve’s sin, and this is the common sequence of apostasy even today.

            Not to mention, they disobeyed their creator, and failed to love Him with all their heart, mind and soul.

          • 33sjoyfulservant says:

            “Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.” – James 1:15-16.

            Notice: My dear brothers (Christians)
            Who does the tempting?

            “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;” -James 1:13.

            If not God, His adversary the devil.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Tyler

            You reference Jas 1:13, & 15,16.
            But the answer to your question is in.

            Jas 1:14
            But (EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED), when he is drawn away (OF HIS OWN LUST), and enticed.

            When you say:
            “Notice: My dear brothers (Christians)
            Who does the tempting?”

            At that point you made an assumption.

            It is us, sin abides in us, we have a sinful nature, we don’t need any help from the adversary when it comes to temptation, we can manage the task quite well by ourselves.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • Anybody that is saved and loves the Lord wants to do right. But, if a saved person does sin, we have an advocate in heaven—Jesus. Read the verses below:

            1 John 2:1 (NIV)
            My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. BUT if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

            Romans 8:31-34 NIV (starting at the second half of the verse 31)
            …If God be for us who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

          • 33sjoyfulservant says:

            “If another believer sins, rebuke that person; then if there is repentance, forgive.” -Luke 17:3.
            This shows the importance of reading the entire bible, and not selected verses. Yes Christ is our mediator, but he doesn’t just forgive sins because we believe in his name. He requires us to earnestly repent. A person who earnestly repents will no longer continue in sin because he understands it is a great offense to, and only to, God Himself.
            “For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge.” -Psalm 51:3-4.

            God tells us over and over again that we are only forgiven by repentance.

            “If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” -Luke 17:4.
            These things are said throughout scripture.

            SO it’s important to note that to be forgiven of sins, repentance is required. To have repentance, believing in our LORD, Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross is required. Furthermore if you love Christ with all your heart, you will obey him and turn away from your sins as he commands. For:
            “Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, ‘Come along now and sit down to eat’? Would he not rather say, ‘Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink’? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'” -Luke 17:7-10.

          • If you will review my comments you will see that I quoted 1 John 3:7 correctly. I believe I said “doeth righteousness.” A person is only declared righteous by God, if that person is saved. Maybe this will help: “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19) Notice a saved person is MADE righteous. This is God’s doing not ours.

            As I have said several times, this does not give a saved person the right to do wrong. I believe most Christians want to do right. Again I say that Paul is not talking about Christians in Romans 2:1-16. Scofield says he is talking to Gentile pagan moralizers. In the rest of the chapter he addresses the Jew.

            I agree totally with your final statements. Also, if “the law is powerless to deliver the sanctification and justification we need”, then why do some Christians think they should still live by the Ten Commandments? A saved person does not need them, because God has given that person the Holy Spirit to tell him or her how to live. The Ten Commandments are to make people aware that they are a sinner. That is the sole purpose of the law. That way people will see their need of Christ Jesus.

            P.S. By the way, what is this” easy-believism” you talk about? Is this a term you came up with or one you have heard? Expound on it please.

            P.S again—I appreciate your timely responses. Some might have ignored me. So, I appreciate your input.

          • God does justify the ungodly, who put their trust in Him. There has to be a moment when a person's orientation changes from sin towards loving and trusting God. It is after justification that a person must remain in faith.

            I do not believe in Scofield or his notes. I believe that the Book of Romans was written to the Christians in Rome, because that is what the Bible says.

            So Romans 2 was written to STATE TRUTH and what it states unequivocally points to the fact that there are two ways to live. The saved person who hopes to be finally saved through Christ is the one who by patient continuance in doing good seeks for glory, honor and immortality, while the rest, which are described there, be they as Christian as the pope in Rome, will surely PERISH if they are self-seeking and do not obey the truth.

            The cermeonial law is of no more use to the Christian except to consider as types and shadows of the sacrifice of Christ.

            The moral law of God however, is useful for much more than simply showing a person that they are a sinner. Where does it say in the Bible that this is the ONLY use for the moral law of God? If it doesn't say so in the Bible, anyone who believes THAT and then disregards all God's commandments because someone told him it was safe to do so is a FOOL.

            It is extremely dangerous to embrace a position as gospel truth and then use that position to disregard the plain teachings of the New Testament concerning who will, and who will not, enter life.

             

          • 1. I agree that the book of Romans was written to the Christians at Rome. However, Paul was telling them about the Gentile pagan moralizers and the Jews.

            2. I agree with Scofield on most things, but I do disagree with him in one area which I will not mention here.

            3. You said, “The moral law of God however, is useful for much more than simply showing a person that they are a sinner. Where does it say in the Bible that this is the ONLY use for the moral law of God?” I am glad you asked that. Your answer is below.

            Galatians 3: 23-25

            But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

            But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

            Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

            I hope I have addressed all your points.

          • It is true that this passage says is that we are no longer under the law. It does NOT say: "the law is of no use except to tell us we are sinners". You are totally reading that into the text.

            I agree that the law does not produce justification, and that efforts to obey the law will not save a person. But this statement of Paul does not abrogate all the declarations of the Bible concerning the value and effect of the law. Not at all. 

            Lets use the illustration of marriage.

            The law says, "Do not commit adultery". The gospel says, "Love your wife as Christ loved the church". If I TRULY love my wife, I do not need to focus on the law "Do not commit adultery" because I will not want to hurt her.

            But let us suppose that I now say: "I am not under the law. This rule of not committing adultery does not speak to me. Or if it does, God doesn't see it or impute it to me even if I go off and deliberately do it." This would be very FOOLISH. "Fornicators and adulterers God will judge".

            People who think that not being under the law means freedom to sin like this are ready to commit adultery when the temptation is strong enough. Think it doesn't ever happen? Wake up and smell the coffee! Its happening to Christian leaders all the time. And they say that 50-90% of Christian men in church are involved in internet pornography to some extent. Let's not kid ourselves.

            Truly being under grace means that God's power works in you and SIN DOES NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU. It doesn't mean that you are in practice a slave to sin, but somehow theologically, you are "not under the law", but "under grace" so its no big deal if you go off and sin.

            Anytime you preach the commandments of Christ, are you preaching the "law"? Are we not "under" the commands of Christ? What then shall we make of the commandment "teaching them to OBSERVE all things I commanded you". (Matthew 28:19)

             

             

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Michael

            The sins which are so prevalent in the body of Christ, are they caused the preaching “You are not under the law”, or is the cause the lack of preaching “Repentance from sin”?

            I have seen the Churches over the past 40 yrs, become more and more influenced by secular society, than by anything Jesus ever said. The body of Christ is in the condition it is today because of Pastors, being to scared what the parishioners would say if he spoke the truth, and their trying to be politically correct in their preaching, rather than (Reproving the Darkness) to be found within their own walls, or the Community around them. it’s all about Attendance, (MONEY)

            Someone which can be led astray, will be led astray, for they are continually looking in the direction of temptation, they are drawn away of their OWN lusts and enticed.
            I place these people doing the things you are speaking of in the category of “The Tares” spoken of in the Parable

            A true Christian, will not use the liberty found in the Bible, for an occasion to sin, their eyes are not on how they can sin and get away with it, their eyes are fixed of Christ, the author and finisher of their faith.

            Rom 6:1
            What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
            Rom 6:2
            God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

            I believe

            Heb 10:26,27
            26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
            27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

            Heb 6:4-6
            4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
            5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
            6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

            But I do not believe they will or can fall, for Paul said “it is impossible” – “if we sin wilfully” – “If they shall fall away”

            Rom 6:14
            For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • In some cases talking about "not being under the law" contributes to the general malaise, but you are right – it is the lack of preaching of repentance and the living of a godly life which accounts for most of what is going wrong.

            It is true that we are not "under the law". When you are truly led by the Spirit, you are living a far higher level of holiness than anyone who is merely trying to keep the rules so to speak. What God wants is a spirit-born and fuelled love for God that goes way beyond staying away from gross sins and brings us into a place of true Christlikeness.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Michael & Sunrise

            Were all on the same page, were all saying the same things, the only difference is, were all coming at this question from diametrically opposed positions.

            Neither side wants anyone abusing the freedom afforded to us by Christ.
            While neither side wants Born Again Christians Bound by Law.

            ***********************************************************************

            The original comments posted by Michael were about the Joseph Prince Ministry.
            Lets just get back on subject.

            My opinion on what Joseph Prince teaches, is what I said in another post
            If Joseph Prince says turning from sin not necessary for justification or forgiveness, he is categorically wrong.
            (IT IS IMPOSSABLE TO GAIN JUSTIFICATION, UNLESS YOU FIRST ASK FOR FORGIVENESS OF SIN).

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • I agree. This thread is getting overcrowded. Go here to comment on the question of "easy believism".

            And please go here for Discussion on the meaning of Book of Romans.

             

             

          • It still tells the purpose of the law.

            I don’t recall saying, “the law is of no use except to tell us we are sinners”. I think I said, “A saved person does not need them, because God has given that person the Holy Spirit to tell him or her how to live.
            I also stated at another time that Christians are not without law. We are under the law of liberty. Below are the commandments for this law.

            John 15:12
            This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

            1 John 4:21
            And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

            The law of liberty wants us to love God and love others the way He does. The Holy Spirit will help us if we will listen to him. Our problem sometimes is submitting our will to His will.

            There are two covenants to consider in regards to this. The first covenant was made with the Israelites after they came out of Egypt. This covenant included the Law of Moses. Jesus made a new covenant when He ate his last supper meal with His disciples before His crucifixion. This covenant was based on grace, because all who accept the new covenant would have all their sins forgiven. This is something mankind didn’t deserve. That’s why I say it’s based on grace. As of right now all sinners are under the old covenant. All saints or saved people are under the new covenant.

            When a man and woman get married, they enter into a covenant relationship. I don’t know how many married people know this. If the husband or wife dies, they are free of that covenant. The husband or wife is free to marry again, if they want to. Likewise, when a person is saved, they die to the old covenant and they take on the new covenant. That’s why I said, the saved person does not need the Ten Commandments, because God has written His law on their hearts as mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31-34
            .
            I THINK I know where you are coming from, Michael. You are afraid that people will take advantage of grace for the wrong reasons, if we make it seem like a piece of cake. Just like there needs to be a commitment in marriage, there needs to be a commitment to the Lord for those who are saved. This commitment is what keeps us on track. But, you know that there are people who call themselves Christians and they may even think they are, but they are not.

            A person isn’t saved by osmosis. If a person’s parents are saved that does make that person saved. Being sprinkled, or going through baptismal waters does not save a person. Joining the membership of a church does not save a person. Doing good deeds doesn’t save a person. Living in America doesn’t make a person a Christian, just because we call ourselves a Christian nation. Acting like a Christian won’t get it either. Jesus Christ is the only way to become a Christian. A person does that by inviting Him into their heart and life. I speak from personal experience. Jesus is the best friend a person could have.

            You have to understand that Christians are at different levels of maturity. As they grow in Christ and study His word, their actions will change along with it. They may stumble along the way. I told one young lady that each day is a new page in her life and she gets to decide what is written on that page. If you mess up, there is another day. You can start over. At the same time one needs to learn from those mistakes and try not to do it again.

            Sorry for writing so much.

          • You wrote:

            I don’t recall saying, “the law is of no use except to tell us we are sinners".

            I quote from your earlier posts.

            "A saved person does not need them, because God has given that person the Holy Spirit to tell him or her how to live. The Ten Commandments are to make people aware that they are a sinner. That is the sole purpose of the law."

            But lets not quibble.

            I agree with you that we are under the law of liberty. The law of love. And the only way to keep THIS law is to receive the love of God ourselves and the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

            "Love" as a standard is much more difficult than simple not committing adultery, or not murdering, or such things. But I say that if anyone violates the 10 commandments, they are not actually walking in the love that Christ commanded, the law we are under. Was Jesus misleading the young ruler when he asked him about the Ten Commandments? In fact, the rich young ruler didn't know it, but he was breaking the first one. His wealth was his god.

            I am not afraid of people abusing the grace of God. They can't do it and really get away with it. God is NOT mocked. He cannot be mocked. This is the clear teaching in Galatians 6. A man reaps what he sows.

            Instead I fear for people's souls. I have a heart for people to be saved. Saved from sin, not saved in sin. The heart is extremely deceptive. If a person doesn't really WANT to stop hurting God, I question their salvation. If I want to keep hurting my wife, can I claim that I love her? I am not talking about people who WANT to stop sinning but do not know HOW to be set free. That is another issue. We want to give people that knowledge as much as possible, but the people who are cool with sin because they think grace covers them are in for a rude awakening.

            I think the Scripture warns against this, and those who downplay these warnings are not the friend of sinners, they are their greatest enemies.

             

          • The following hymn will be my final comment on this subject.

            Once for All

            Free from the law, O happy condition!
            Jesus has bled, and there is remission;
            Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
            Grace has redeemed us once for all.

            Chorus

            Once for all, O sinner, receive it!
            Once for all, O brother, believe it!
            Cling to the cross, the burden will fall
            Christ has redeemed us once for all.

            Now we are free, there’s no condemnation!
            Jesus provides a perfect salvation;
            “Come unto Me”, O hear His sweet call!
            Come and He saves us once for all.

            Children of God, O glorious calling!
            Surely His grace will keep us from falling;
            Passing from death to life at His call,
            Blessed salvation once for all.

            Words and tune by Philip P. Bliss, 1873

            Bye

      • ICUmockwowSR says:

        Our spirit isn’t under the law, our spirit can’t sin! Who are you SPIRIT? or Rotten FLESH? What part of you is born again?????

        • but why did Paul tell the Corinthians in one place that they were sinning? Why did John talk about people sinning? (1 John 2:1,2). Was he talking about their spirit, their flesh, or was that distinction really important to the writers of the New Testament in this regard?

          • ICUmockwowSR says:

            Sounds nice, yes it does…it rings true too! You did avoid it though. Do you,dispute what I say? It is true, is it not? How can you deny and if you can’t deny, then how do you reconcile this truth in your battle against Full Grace?

            Re: Your response to my comment. The question you used to avoid mine! Be specific and I wil be glad to address whatever you ask.

          • Job said: "Your hands have made me and fashioned me, an intricate unity". (Job 10:8). Its dangerous to drive such a strong wedge between the soul, spirit and body that we no longer glorify God in our bodies.

            The gnostics believed that as long as their spirits were pure, it didn't really matter what they did with their evil bodies. This kind of doctrine is heresy.

            It is the spirit which is born again. However, the soul which sins shall die. The possibility of spiritual death is very real for the born again Christian. It can happen to people who set their minds on what is evil. So sinnning with the soul and the body DOES matter. Keep on sinning deliberately, and you will go to hell. Period. Hebrews 10:26-39

            It is possible to say true things in such a way that the overall message is a lie. 

            What you call "Full Grace", if its anything like what Joseph Prince teaches, is utterly incompatible with what the Bible itself teaches about grace. For example, read the Book of Titus, chapter 2:11,12:

            11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 

            I learned in Bible study we do three things. First we ask, "What does it say?" Then, "What does it mean?" And thirdly, "How can I apply this to my life."

            If someone teaches that there is no need to deny ungodly and worldly lusts, that there is no need to live soberly, righteously or godly in the present age, that God is not too concerned about our lawless deeds, and that zeal for good works is quite misguided in fact, would that be consistent with what the Bible and biblical grace teach?

            Is it really true that my questions are not specific enough for you?

            Until now, I don't see that anyone here has bothered to take what I said in the article above and critique it properly. If you can't do that, please go and learn some more, and then come and defend your position, if you want to. Don't just thow insults and cliches at me.

            By the way, this isn't an unmoderated forum. You can insult me for a while, as you did with the other comments about sex, but you might eventually lose your posting privileges. Its up to you.

             

             

          • SETAPART4GOD says:

            Well said.Keep up the good fight as we all should.Never grow weary in well doing.

          • Annette1016 says:

            Michael, Pray that my memory starts to hold Gods word again, for I read and loose what I have read in one day, from when I was younger My memory holds on, but I so want to retain the Word! That was very well spoken, and how un gentleman like, and un lady like to insult somebody on their own web Site? WELL DONE PASTOR! God Bless!

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          our spirit can sin,and the Spirit of God will not dwell in an un clean temple(OUR BODY) don;t think asking for forgiveness is a get out of hell free card,look at thoses with the talents,if you don;t use you lose

          • PraiseKingYeshua says:

            OUr flesh sins, our spirit with the Holy Spirit in us convicts of our sins. Then we must repent. Be very sorry and activly work hard to stop then sin. Confess, and turn away from. Here is an example. I sin, I have a co worker who am jealous of, (was) many times a day thoughts sneak up on me (devil working on my flesh). Now Everytime they do I stop and pray for her. I ask God to bless this person in everyway and to soften my heart more and open the eyes of my heart wider. I ask God to forgive me and please bless her. I go to the Word… I chase our the devil in my flesh with the Word of God which is Yeshua Himself, His spirit living in me. God already knew my weakness, He knows where I will fall short. But HE still loves me and forgives me. I can’t be saved over and over daily. I am already saved by the Grace of God throught the blood of Yeshua. By the way that example above is true, its me, and ya know what, I don’t have that fight near as much as I did, daily its less, now only every so often, maybe monthly.. it sneaks up like the nasty evil it represents. BUT!!! I stop and do it all again. I have learned to pray for this person daily and it keep the evil at bay. It the Devil isn’t attacking you than thank God, but watch out, he attack at any moment.

            I am sorry but I sin and the Spirit of God is in me and it always pulls me up short and says Hey, stop, you know thats against all I AM. If people thing SAVED born again people don’t sin, you got a rude awaking coming.

            LORD Bless us all with YOUR wisdom and never our own.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            pardner,you may have salvation and fight to keep it,but unless you get the rest,you will always be the same,you cannot have the baptizm of the Holy Ghost and fight the flesh everyday and lose,the seed of sin inside must be removed,and forgiveness is not the removal,only the first stage.and many skip the sancification by the Holy Ghost and claim to have the baptizm,but are mistaken! and you my friend are mistaken.

      • PraiseKingYeshua says:

        Yes we sin, but JP is saying we no longer pay for our sins by the old covenent, because Jesus on the Cross paid our price. JP plainly said, is there Consequences? YES of course, but no longer are they paid to us, our childern and our childrens children as there were on the old covenent. Jesus paid the sacrifie for all, but yes we will / do have consequences. JP did say that.

        • michael says:

          Anyone who has any experience at all in deliverance ministry knows that even today iniquities are generally passed on to children. Generational curses are real. They are all LEGALLY broken at the cross, but like all the other things Jesus provided at the cross (like healing, justification, sanctification etc), they have to be APPROPRIATED in a way that God will honor.

          There are consequences to sin, but for the Christian they are nowhere near as devastating as they could be, as long as we truly have a heart for God, and allow the Spirit of God to lead and guide us into all truth. When God does this, we will certainly turn from our sins, and everything like it which opens a door to Satan to oppress and influence the mind.

  9. @newman@ says:

    Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    Luk 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
    Luk 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

    I would say that to deny or speak against the mercy & grace to work at any level….that Jesus died to extend to us.. would put one in danger of Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost….Salvation is a gift from God that never stops…For anyone with a repentant heart..The law is was fulfilled through Jesus..The Israelites had to sacrifice every year for their ongoing sins…Jesus put the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in us to warn us with His still small voice when we are tempted to sin…And Jesus was & is the everlasting sacrifice sent from God his blood so we would don’t have to make a yearly trip to a high priest with a spotless sacrificial lamb…Were gonna sin…somewhere..somehow..someway …someday… Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy…….trying to nullify the grace & mercy of God…with the letter of the Law.

    • So am I "denying the grace and mercy of God at some level" so am I in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

      If I say that unrepentant sinners don't receive the mercy of God, if I say what the Bible says, am I in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

      Where do you get this stuff from?

      Its not about the letter of the law. Its about whether you are truly in love with Jesus or not.

      You write:

      "The law is was fulfilled through Jesus"

      Which law are you referring to. Please don't be vague about this. This is exactly where all the errors come in.

       

      The Sacrificial Law was fulfilled through Jesus.

      Jesus fulfilled the moral law for Himself, and for those who are in Christ.

      His righteousness is imparted to those who turn to Him in repentance and faith. Those who set their minds on the flesh WILL DIE (Romans 8:5). Everyone dies physically, its talking about spiritual death. Those who set their minds on the flesh don't have a repentant heart.

       

      Romans 3:31

      "Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."

       

      Its only those who DO the will of the Father who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 7:21. Do you honestly think that some preacher's definition of "GRACE" is going to trump all the Word of Jesus on the Last Day? If they do, Jesus was a very bad and misleading teacher.

       

       

      • SETAPART4GOD says:

        Tts 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

        Tts 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
        Tts 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
        Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
        Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

        Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
        Tts 3:8 [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
        Tts 3:9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          unless his name is Jesus Christ,he is wrong,the entire penicostal revivals 300 years ago spead world wide because of intire santification ,plus I know personally what it is ,joseph p came to late to tell that garbarge

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          the teaching and articals of faith are on holyrollers post,these and pentecostal artical are almost the same ,we, would not even have this discussion if not for this,anyone who trys to change the word of God is in danger.Sin nature is dead by the blood,when santified,

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            the wages of sin is death,man must die because of sin,The blood of Jesus during santification by God,the inner man dies,and the sin nature is dead,replaced with a clean heart,that is not bound by the lust of the flesh ,the pride of life,but seek after the things of God. The crime for not teaching this ,people have bypassed it,and replaced it with man must sin but God overlooks it because we ask forgiveness but then go back to sinning with an excuse. there is a way that seem right to man but in the end lead to destuction.sin will not be accepted.

  10. lauren joy peterson says:

    I really love the messages that Joseph Prince speaks….

    I believe in 100% Grace…. If you have a little bit of grace with a little bit of law, then it is no longer grace, for grace is undeserved and you can never work for the grace of God.

    Gods Grace is a free gift……
    No one can get to heaven by being good or think they are justified by the law.
    “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Galatians 5:1-6)

    If we Believe that Jesus Died on the Cross for our sins… and that by accepting him we receive eternal life we are under grace….
    A lot Of people think that if you are under grace then that gives you a licence to sin….. Grace gives you the power to sin no more….

    Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Praise the Lord….. Isn’t it wonderful to know, that we are under grace… and that we can never earn it…. it is given freely as a gift.

    • There are misunderstanding here between grace and sin. As in Romans 6:14, it stated that we do not sin because we are now living in Christ, in His grace and have died to our flesh. But not in the context of we are free to sin as all our sins will be forgiven because we have His grace. Grace is a free gift, without work, but it is precious.

      • realityorbust says:

        Romans 6:14 “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” Can you please show me in there where it says “we do not sin”? It doesn’t. In fact, in the next chapter of Romans, Paul describes a struggle of his efforts and sin. Note that this letter to the Roman church is considered by nearly all theologians as Paul’s final letter. Thus, we see Paul, the guy who wrote over half of the New Testament, created dozens of churches around the Roman Empire, and was chosen by God to be the main source of the gospel for the Gentiles, STILL struggled with sin! So if he claimed that because of grace we don’t sin, he would be a liar and the Bible would be flawed and Christianity would prove to be a hoax. However, he never claimed this. He declared that those who are under grace are no longer slaves to sin. He is saying that the whole game of life has switched up for our good. Before, we were slaves to our sin. We couldn’t get out of it no matter how hard we tried to do good. Now that we are under grace, we are slaves to righteousness. We can’t get out no matter how much bad we do. “Sin” no longer plays a part, because the only way we can explain what “sin” is is by turning our focus back to the Law, which we have died to. This freedom does not lead us to go against God’s will, it allows us to finally seek it! God is trying to tell us that, under grace, sin is no longer part of the equation. This produces not evil ways, but rather a release to follow the influence of the Spirit. Paul was accused of teaching freedom to sin. If, because of what he taught, Paul was accused of teaching freedom to sin, wouldn’t the ones being similarly accused today be CLOSER to Paul’s gospel? Just a thought…

        • Timothy Luke says:

          "Under grace" entails abiding in Christ. Abiding in Christ entails the keeping of His commandments…. "if you love me, keep my commandments."

          The arguments for not sinning imply one's sins as a Christian are inconsequential… yet, sin in a Christian's life has consequences. Hence, Paul in Romans 6:15-16 is admonishing Christians in their daily choices to choose to serve righteousness. "know ye not to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey, whether of sin unto death, or obedience (to the law of God in Christ) unto righteousness." The chapter then concludes with the consequences of our daily choices once more… "for the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life."

          A Christian has a choice he did not have before. He can CHOOSE to obey God. Before he was a slave to sin alone. Now, he has a choice of taskmasters… serve as a bondservant of Jesus Christ, or serve Satan and his world and your flesh.

        • Timothy Luke says:

          Reality Check…

          I did not connect the two when I wrote my earlier post. I was coming back to correct your quote. You misquoted Roman 6:14 to make your point. There is a vast difference in the words "will" and "shall".

          The correct version of Romans 6:14 as cut and pasted from my KJV is as follows:

          "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

           

          "Sin will not have dominion over you" is an absolute statement.  "Sin shall not have dominion over you," is a statement that is not absolute, but a statement of exhortation… this is borne out by the exhortation that follows in the verses I quoted in the post that I posted adjacent to this one.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi TIM

            The actual Greek rendering says.

            Rom. 6:14
            sin for of you shall not lord it over: for you are not under law but under grace.

            Doesn’t sound like a statement of exhortation to me.

            You say
            “Sin shall not have dominion over you,” is a statement that is not absolute, but a statement of exhortation”

            I’m not going to go through the plethora of definitions, these three should suffice.

            SHALL NOT
            G3756
            οὐ
            ou
            oo
            Also οὐκ ouk ook used before a vowel and οὐχ ouch ookh before an aspirate.
            A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not: – + long, nay, neither, never, no (X man), none, [can-] not, + nothing, + special, un ([-worthy]), when, + without, + yet but. See also G3364, G3372.

            G3361
            μή
            mē
            may
            A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: – any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.

            G3364
            οὐ μή
            ou mē
            oo may
            That is, G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all: – any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare G3378.

            I find it strange, with every use of the word (Shall) when used in the affirmative, it is an absolute statement, but when it is used in conjunction with the word (NOT) as (Shall Not), as with this verse, all of a sudden it becomes a implied statement.

            In answer to your statement:
            “The arguments for not sinning imply one’s sins as a Christian are inconsequential”

            My answer is:
            It has been agreed, the definition of sin is what the bible has said it is.

            1 John 3:4
            Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

            With this Truth firmly established, how then does a (CHRISTIAN SIN), when Paul so clearly says.

            Rom.6:14
            For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are (NOT UNDER THE LAW), but under grace.

            Rom. 7:4
            Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become (DEAD TO THE LAW) by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

            Gal. 2:19
            For I through the law am (DEAD TO THE LAW), that I might live unto God.

            So with that Truth established, here’s the same question Paul asked.

            Rom. 6:2
            God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

            The two Truths being,
            1) We are dead to the Law.
            2) Being dead to the Law, we are no longer bound to it, therefore we cannot transgress the Law, by which sin is established.

            It is then time to revisit the scripture so frequently posted.

            1John 3:9
            Whosoever is born of God (DOETH NOT COMMIT SIN); for his seed remaineth in him: and (HE CANNOT SIN), because he is born of God.

            JIM

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