Jim, Your God is Restrictive!!!

(Warning to all tolerant atheists who will read this in future, I did not address this post to you, so you need not be offended. If you may be offended, click off this now. This is your chance to walk away or take full responsibility for your being offended.)

Jim, God's laws are restrictive indeed. They restrict us from causing harm to others. Of course, when one is so restricted, they tend to resent it and retaliate and accelerate and magnify their harmful behaviors, so God got even more restrictive and said they should be punished by the civil authorities to get it right.

Now, as Christians, Jesus tells us our Kingdom is not of this world, and so we are not to fight.

I am absolutely appalled at what the atheist governments do to Christians! China beats and tortures them and imprisons them. They set thugs on men, women and children to encourage them to become enlightened to the supreme authority of their godless state. For a state without God is GOD – and the rules they implement are for the preservation of themselves and promotion of their ideology, rather than for the common good of all citizens.

That is why I choose your restrictive God to be my God Jim! I look forward to the day when His Kingdom comes and His will is done, when the earth shall be as full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the oceans! I look forward to the eternity He shall usher in where there will be no more sighing, nor sorrow, nor tears and former things shall all pass away. Until then, we are as sheep to the slaughter and the church will be battered and abused and killed by those tolerant atheists who tolerate themselves and no one else when the get in power. Name me a communist state that does not aggressively root out people of faith, not just Christians. Should you find one, I would ask you to tell me if it does not passively root out people of faith by allowing its citizens to harrass and harm them without gov't protections.

Here are some atheist ruled nations and their atrocities just this year. Go to the link below and toggle the communist nations to see of the reports of abuse for yourself…

CHINA, VIETNAM, LAOS, NORTH KOREA, ETC: http://www.persecution.org/awareness/persecuted-countries/

What do YOU think?

comments

Comments

  1. Timothy Luke says:

    I will not belabor the discussion but I will show the absurdity of your first point: (I shall not bother reading the rest of it)

    "'China is a communist govt. They don't tolerate dissent.' China, as you know, are predominantly buddhist – NOT atheist. Your point in this case has fallen completely flat before it gets out of the box!"

    If you cannot grasp the meaning of 'government', then why pursue the conversation further? The government of China is not built on buddhist ideals. It controls buddhism as it does Christianity. Anyone knows that the Chinese government is a communist government, not a buddhist one. The people may be predominately buddhist, but the government is not.

    Click on the link I provided, and you will see Burma listed as persecuting Christians, and you will see it is due to Buddhism purging Christianity, not atheism. I at least have the intellectual integrity to not list nations in the manner you accused me of.

    http://www.persecution.org/awareness/persecuted-countries/

    You came here claiming to want to understand Christianity. I gave you a link to my testimony that clearly shows the power and love of God and my faith in Him… yet, you have not pursued questions to examine my faith.

    Your stated purpose for being here is belied by your actual intent and the manifestation of it to promote your ideology, rather than to seek to understand ours. If you choose to cling to your appearance of intelligence, you will never see what you came here claiming to seek.

    "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned…"  1 Corinthians 2:12-16.

    Unless you  choose to surrender to God, you will not know the things of God. He loves you em, but he respects your will to despise him. He will not violate it, but he will in due season judge it. This is your age of reason, but you should be using it to find God, not sling accusations at him.. It is your loss. If you wish to learn of God, you must go to God. IF you wish to divide and conquer Christians, well, I love God more than man and in our unity of love for God, we shall not be divided.

    • anonymous-em says:

      Since if a goverment were actively imposing an atheistic philosophy by force, then the populace would not be predominatnly buddhist.

      Since the population IS predominantly buddhist, then the government is not actively imposing an atheistic philosohpy by force.

      I don’t think we need to iterate on this further, and I trust that you can now dispense with the disingenuous, factually incorrect and entirely fabricated notion that people fight wars or commit genocide in the name of “no god”.

      Absurd is EXACTLY how I would describe it too.

      The rest of your comment is not in any way associated with these details.

    • anonymous-em says:

      On second thought, I WILL respond to the rest of your post.

      But first, backtracking slightly.
      As always, I am highly suspicious of a source that has an agenda to promote. True to form, the christian persecution site you referenced is unique in that it claims persecution in a country where nobody else thinks there is persecution of Chrisitans – MY reference in this case is an impartial, agendaless and government departmental body, the US Comission on international Religious Freedom. I think you will agree this is much more impartial than the site you referenced. But I’ll be happy to hear any complaints you have and we can figure it out. Visiting USCIRF we indeed find that china is an “of particular concern” to that group – but NOT because of christianity – because of opression of Uighur Muslims. They OPPRESS them – buddhists are tolerated – as I said previously (and, I might point out, as is a growing number of christians, but I’ll leave you to look up those facts on your own).

      So you’ve inadvertantly highlighted the opression of what is widely regarded as the competition for christianity – I wonder how you might respond to this strange and interesting buffeting from fact? the other countries you mentioned certainly do not appear on that list – probably because they have a historical, rather than a present relevance – again, you’ll find that those genocides had nothing at all to do with atheism, and everything to do with a power-grab.

      I don’t think it’s necessary for me to engage you on “intellectual integrity” any further here, but I hope you can now see how your claims of “athieist governments” butchering their people in the name of “no god” is not only absurd (as discussed earlier), but is also factually and entirely WRONG.

      I did not “come here claiming to want to understand christianity”, I came here claiming to want to understand CHRISTIANS. I READ your testimony, I even responded to it on another blog – I told you that given the magnitude and importance that your God plays in your life, I didn’t think it appropriate that I “pursue questions to examine your faith” – there are some questions that shouldn’t be asked to SOME people tim.

      Yet again, you imply I despise your God. Yet again, I’ll repeat that I DO NOT despise your god.
      Yet again, you imply I sling “accusations” at him – again, I DO NOT. If anything, I am pointing out how inconstant the bible is (in my opinion) – for the very good reason that I am trying to understand how Christians negotiate these inconsistencies.

      There is nothing sinister about my presence here tim. Yes, I’m asking hard questions, and yes, at times they may expose parts of your faith that you may not have addressed before – but tim, your faith, I assume, is strong. I can’t imagine why you are in the slightest bit concerned about me, or anyone, undermining your faith – even if they WERE trying – which, let me iterate – I am not. I’m certainly not trying to “divide and conquer” a religion that is held by 2.2 billion people on the planet – the mere suggestion of this really IS absurd!

      • I dont mean to bother you but your good at what you know,I am impressed by the facts you do know.I am also impressed that your willing to come to a christian web sight just wanting to understand.I have a deliverance minestry and I go all over,heres my web sight so you can see I am telling you the truth…..http://exposingthedarkness.com/ I just want you to know that you are much appreciated here just like any one else and I know that you will find genuine answers to your questions.Some people might be argumentive or not listening but dont give up,because I know theres allot of people on this web sight who really do care and are really willing to listen and reach out.Like I said before I admire some one like you going to this web sight because if a christian doesnt walk in love,truth and humilty what God are they serving.So I believe this is a good challenge to many christians you being here.Have a nice day Tim

  2. These kind of discussions are in my opinion pointless because they don't really profit anyone or go anywhere.

     

    anonymous-em

    People can hold out the message of God's grace to you, but if you are not willing to receive it, what else can someone do…? You may not believe it but the true and living God speaks through His Word (the Bible).

     

    'For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.' John 3:17-20

     

    My hope is that you will hear the message God holds out to you, and that you would repent and turn to Him, that you may be saved and find mercy and grace from Him.

     

    Daniel

     

     

    • anonymous-em says:

      Hi Daniel

      What I find a little odd is that people don’t seem to understand my point. I’m not sure if it’s a stupid point, or I’m not being clear, but perhaps I can excavate a little for a moment.

      Can I just ask you a series of straightforward questions, and hopefully I can illustrate where I’m getting to?

      Here is the first:
      In the scenario where diversity is not generally destructive, do you think diversity is a good thing for a healthy society? At this point, I’m NOT talking about religion just yet – we’ll pull that in later perhaps.

      Anyhow, perhaps we’ll start with this and if we can, carry on.
      Many thanks.

      • 3chelon says:

        Hi again

         

        I'm not really trying to argue a point … I believe the Bible is the word of God to us, humankind right. Now, I know you may not believe that, but if it is true, then this word is God speaking to you at this moment. Hence why I quote scripture below. I'm not trying to convince you to accept it, just saying that this is the true and living God speaking to you. And I hope that you will accept His message. That's basically my standpoint/responsability.

         

        'Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

        But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.

        And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

        Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up – if in fact the dead do not rise.

        For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

        And if Christ is not risen, then your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins!

        Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

        If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

        But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.'

        1 Corinthians 15:12-20

         

        'But what does it say? The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

        that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.' Romans 10:8-10

         

        See God has sent the Messiah (Jesus) into the world to save the world through Him. And He raised Jesus from the dead as a testimony to this message. This is God's message to the world, that all who accept Him (Jesus) and put their faith in Him for what He has done for them (in dying for our sins) will be saved from their sins and have eternal life with God.

        • anonymous-em says:

          well it WOULD seem that you are trying to convince you to accept it! – but I’m not going to quibble!

          I’ve read those verses before, but it would seem to me that there is one, and only one fundamental matter that needs to be verified – once that is verified then, of course, I will easily be a very willing Christian!.

          It is, of course, the matter of the ressurection – the whole of Cor 15 is pretty much dependent on it – so, 3chelon – what is it that makes YOU convinced that the ressurection occured?
          Are you able to draw on other witnesses that have not been incorporated into the bible? Or do you make the assumption that the bible is correct, and therefore the ressurection occurred (In which case, what if your assumption is not correct?) ? or something else completely?

          Re-reading (and attempting to re-write) my points above doesn’t really improve what seems to be a rather sneering comment – I honestly don’t mean it to sound that way. I am very confused about the ressurection, and it’s a very important moment, so I hope you will bear with me!

          • 3chelon says:

            Didn't think they were sneering at all.

             

            There might not be definitive proof for the resurrection, but there is definetly logical proof for it. I just wanna say I'm not keen to argue the things I'm gonna say now, just cause I'm not really interested to, so I'll just make the points and you can take them as you will 🙂

             

            First off, logically why would Paul write such verses in Corinthians 15 unless He was absolutely sure that Jesus was resurrected. I mean if He wasn't 100% sure of Jesus resurrection He wouldn't dare to write such a thing as he himself said if Jesus hasn't risen from the dead then my faith is useless.

             

            Then you also have to look at the life of Saul logically. Because Paul was previously before faith in Christ (the Messiah) known as Saul of Tarsus. And He hated the christian faith and christians, and He was bent on destroying the christian faith and was responsible and involved in the killing of christians. Then out of the blue He totally turns around and starts preaching the very faith He was trying to destroy (faith in Jesus as the Messiah, the risen one who died for our sins, that if we put our faith in Him, we will be saved). Now what possible event could cause someone to so suddenly and totally turn around in such a way. Its like Osama Bin Laden suddenly coming to the US and begins proclaiming He is on the side of the US and supports it, and all his hate and anti americanim is gone. For that to happen, you need something very drastic to happen. Saul (later Paul) claimed to have met the risen Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus and this is what completely turned Him around as He came face to face with the truth and the grace of God. Now logically, that event fits as the only reasonable explanation for what happened to Him.

             

            Then you have the case of the disciples of Jesus who met Him risen from the dead experiencing persecution, stoning, crucixificion, facing death, imprisonment and the like in standing for their claim that Jesus is the risen Lord and He is alive. Once again logically, if they were not 100% convinced that Jesus was actually risen from the dead and alive, then their actions are totally insane. No one would go through what they went through for something they knew was false. They had nothing to gain from it.

             

            Theres a number of other logical reasons to consider the ressurection as fact, I'll post a link to this website which talks more about it. http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

             

            Just to note, the bible is a historical account of at least the lives that these people lived (what they went through and did, so my points stand is using the bible as an account of what people experienced, went through), even if you don't trust that their words were accurately recored. If you don't acknowledge that it is accurate in that sense, then you have to consider every historical work in history as false and totally unreliable as the bible is more backed up by scholarly methods for reliability than any other work of antiquity. You can also check out this article on this http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/bib-docu.html

             

            I think they problem may be more along the lines that you are not willing to come to the light (come to the true and living God). Cause by doing that you have to humble yourself before God and admit your need for His redeeming love and saving work. I really do hope you come to Him though, and hope that you come to know Jesus as your savior. Cause thats what He did as the Messiah, He came to save us from our sins and from darkness even if we were/are unaware of our need of saving and to bring us into relationship with God who loves us and wants us to receive what He did for us. Thats why salvation is called a gift in the bible, because while its given freely, we need to receive it.

          • anonymous-em says:

            Hi 3chelon,
            Many thanks for your persistance and tolerance..

            If I may, I might review the points you made?
            “First off, logically why would Paul write such verses in Corinthians 15 unless He was absolutely sure that Jesus was resurrected”
            A good point of course, your assumption is that paul existed, witnessed the events and wrote about them reliably and accurately – are you sure that all of these are the case? Of course it’s not realistic to assume by DEFAULT that all written word is accurate, or correct, or authored by a reliable source. I’m not casting dispersions on Paul, I’m suggesting that these assumptions may not be as correct as you think – of course, the extent to which they disagree with reality (if at all) is unknown, and unquantifiable!
            My typical consideration here is that I, for example, do not hold that peter pan exists, even though london does.

            The link you sent makes a big deal of this logical error:
            “The writers of the four Gospels either had themselves been witnesses or else were relating the accounts of eyewitnesses of the actual events”
            and previously:
            “Those people could certainly have confirmed or denied the accuracy of such accounts.”
            of course, any testimony that would “deny” the accuracy would not appear in the bible.

            The bible is EXACTLY selected to tell the story exactly the way that the heads of the church WANTED it to be told. To argue that the bible does not contain any “denial” is moot – since any text that DID, would not be selected to form part of the bible.

            That site then makes an appeal to archeological discoveries – again another flaw, since as I’ve mentioned a few times, “ruins” do not prove god – otherwise the ruins of troy must be held as proof of zeus.

            “Just to note, the bible is a historical account of at least the lives that these people lived”
            As you suggest, the bible is NOT regarded as an exact detail of human history. It IS regarded as a valid text – but certainly not as a faithful description of events. Additional texts outside of the bible NEVER validate the activities described in the bible – the best they do is describe some of the people that are mentioned also in the bible.
            As for regarding ALL historical documents as false – no, we don’t need to do that, because we can examine ADDITIONAL documents that corroborate the events. Moreover, generally events outside the bible are entirely plausible – not miracles. While this in itself does not mean that the events occurred, it means they CAN have happened – we understand and experience them – we certainly do not experience resurrection ever!

            3chelon – do you think it’s significant that the bible is the only text that talks about what is absolutely a magical and amazing miracle: a resurrection? Why do you think this event is described ONLY in the bible, and nowhere else?

            Many thanks for your comments. I hope we can continue.

          • 3chelon says:

            'But he said to him 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded through one rise from the dead'. Luke 16:31

             

            God is calling you anonymous-em but you are the one who needs to respond. Thats why it says 'for many are called, but few are chosen.' Matthew 22:14 Many are invited to the wedding, but are not willing to come.

          • anonymous-em says:

            hi 3chelon.

            So the bible acknowledges that the ressurection is difficult to understand?
            Great!

            but then – it says something like “those who don’t believe in the resurrection, will not believe in the ressurection”?

            well – yes of course. but that’s a redundant thing to say!

          • 3chelon says:

            Let me try explain it plainly what Jesus meant when He said those things.

            'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead'. Luke 16:31

            This means that the people Jesus was calling out to would not believe even if God does something blatantly drastic like raising someone from the dead as evidence. This is because of the stubborness of their hearts, their unwillingness to humble themselves and because the truth of the matter is they resist the light and don't want to come into it because they love their sin and darkness. You can give them the most definitive persuasion ever, and still even in the face of that they will not believe, because they are not willing as they love the darkness and their sin inwardly. They aren't willing to come into the light.

             

            'for many are called, but few are chosen.' Matthew 22:14

             

            This means that God calls out to many many people, not wanting anyone to perish but all to be saved, but these people he calls out to are not willing to respond, even if God provides something like someone raising someone from the dead as evidence, they still will not believe. Those who do respond are 'chosen' because they respond to the call of God, who calls them into His love and eternal life.

          • anonymous-em says:

            I can tell you right now 3chelon, if God fronts up and resurrects someone from the dead, or indeed any miracle at all that would inconclusively prove their claim as a god, AND allow suitable testing and study, then I will be amongst the first in line to be a Christian.

            I think we’re converging on the problem – it’s not WHAT your god does or does not do, it’s a combination of a) it being completely implausible and b) ONLY reported in a book that is known to have been “specially” selected from amongst a number of others AND is necessarily translated and more or less, rather opaque in any case.

            As you probably know, I can do nothing other than submit to fact, but until an event is shown to be fact, and not conceivably a very strange story, then I have no choice other than to apply occam’s razor, logic and reason.

            Let me emphasize – my situation, and that of most other theists, is that there is simply no plausible, probable, or verifiable information – if and when that arrives, we will submit to it!

            We are slaves to fact, not faith. But what is more perplexing is that God actually knows this – he knew it BEFORE he created us – and he new exactly how we were going to turn out.

          • warrior daughter says:

            Open your eyes & you will see the many wonders of God…Every breath you take is a precious miracle from God…All of creation extolls God except all of mankind.

            I for one am getting tired of your posts with the disguise of wanting to learn but in reality you are trying to cause confusion & cause those who are weak in their faith to doubt God..

            quote.. I will be amongst the first in line to be a Christian… unquote ..You lack any faith except in yourself & you are already in a line but you are not head of the line…The line you are in leads to the slippery slope to hell…

            Wake up & open your eyes to the Truth & not your idea of truth for it is a lie…

          • anonymous-em says:

            Hello WD – thanks for your contribution.
            I’ll respond if you don’t mind:
            My eyes ARE open. And yes, I see many, many, many incredible wonderful things.
            I see an incredible blue sky, with amazing white clouds, slowly drifting. I see a tiny bee hover, land on a magnificent flower, draw it’s nectar AND at the same time, pollinate it – ensuring further generations. I take a deep breath, nourishing my own body with rich oxygen, and feel it flood into my muscles and body.
            At night, I admire and marvel at the stars – so incredibly old, so incredibly violent, so impossibly distant. I ponder that all the stars I see are an completely negligible fraction of the number of stars that actually exist – yet they are so CROWDED on the sky, they form an almost contiguous band – an almost fluid river of glowing marvel.
            I admire all of these things, and yet, I am an atheist. Moreover, I have actually studied ALL of them. I know exactly why the sky is blue, why and what the clouds do – how a bee hovers, finds it’s way and how a flower procreates. I know how the oxygen is transported from the air directly to my cells and how that element is used to create energy to power my body. I know how the stars formed, how they grow and die, and I know also how our star grew and died- where it came from and where it’s going. I know that other stars, in other galaxies countless billions of miles away, do the same thing.
            I know all these things – yet I am not religious – I am atheist. My atheism in now way detracts from my incredulity, in fact, it enhances it. My knowledge of these process, and my knowledge of what we DON’T know, builds it yet further; We don’t actually know EXACTLY how big stars form – does that mean I conclude god exists? no – it means I conclude that humans are finite, not omniscient – nothing more.
            On what factual grounds do you declare that my tool – logic, is a lie? Bear in mind that you are alive on this day, to a very, very great extent, thanks to logic. Indeed the mere fact that you are able to submit a post here is solely due to logic.
            If you submit a post to me WD, I will respond to it. If you dislike the content, or find it offensive, say so – and if it’s a logical reason (unlike one past event), then I will recant and seek to rectify.
            If “weak” people are being pulled away from god by my posts – then, that is their choice, not yours- I would hope they can validate their choice with well-considered reasons, but THEIR actions are none of my business – nor yours. YOU have no right at all to tell anyone what god you think they should worship. Your entire country holds this concept so precious, it’s explicitly written into the law. This is an easy concept for you to explore, if you think religion should be legally mandated, which religion should be mandated, and why not, for example, muslim?

          • 3chelon says:

            just noticed that was supposed to be 'though one rise from the dead' not through, mispelt it.

  3. anonymous-em says:

    Hi Tim.

    I’m a bit surprised that even after you explicitly asked me, and I explicitly responded, you continue to make the exact mistake that I explained is invalid.

    So I’ll say it again, for the benefit of you, and other readers.

    Tim, There is any number of reasons that a government, or anyone at all, will commit genocide. 99% of the time (fluffy, handwaving number..) this will be simply because of a power-grab. The fact that a government may, or may not be secular or atheistic usually has nothing to do with it. Nor do ALL secular or atheistic governments commit genocide.

    The examples you highlight are a point in case – and I already dealt with these EXACT examples.

    China is a communist govt. They don’t tolerate dissent. China, as you know, are predominantly buddhist – NOT atheist. Your point in this case has fallen completely flat before it gets out of the box!

    Vietnam – well I have no idea what you’re talking about here – are you talking about the Vietnam war? if so, then that was yet another example of COMMUNIST power grab.

    Laos, now you lost me. 1946 Sisavang Vong? yet another example of communism.

    North Korea? whoa… look. this is YET another example of communism.

    Tim, while I appreciate that you are attempting to validate your view, and I think it is perfectly valid for 50% of the time (please don’t assume that christianity is bereft of it’s own horrors), it seems that ALL the examples you’ve cited are not wars “in the name of no-god”, but simple communist of despot powergrabs.

    Please don’t confuse communism with atheism. They have nothing to do with each other really.


    That done, I’d like to address this point:
    “Jim, God’s laws are restrictive indeed. They restrict us from causing harm to others”
    Not really – for example, most of the commandments have nothing to do with “harm to others” – but are really just re-establishing your commitment to God. About 50% of the commandments are to do with interacting with others, but MANY, of them are to do with your worship. Admittedly your God’s laws do not appear only in the commandments, but that’s the best place to find most of the decrees.

    Moreover, while God’s laws seem to (in the main) have to do with care for others, this is implying (incorrectly) that laws derived WITHOUT god do not care for others -you may not have meant to imply this, but I’ll address it anyhow – suffice to say that many, many laws exist from many other religions that are similar to those found in the bible. Many countries flourish very well without the bible completely – ergo, the bible is not necessary for a productive, stable, well-running society.
    Ipso facto – many countries where the bible is dominant have more than their fair share of society problems – while you might insist that this is because the bible is not heeded, the fact remains that even a religion that is ubiquitous does not lead to a flourishing country.

    So we have cases where :
    the bible is not dominant, and a stable country results.
    the bible Is dominant and a stable country results.
    the bible is not dominant, and there is no stability in the country
    the bible is dominant, and there is no stability in the country.

    Ergo, it would seem that a the dominance of the bible has nothing at all to do with the stability of the country.

    Again – please don’t confuse communism with atheism, they are demonstrably and utterly different.

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