I used to believe in once saved always saved

I believed it, I defended it and I preached it until God opened my eyes.

I BELIEVE THAT THERE IS AN ASSURANCE OF SALVATION (to those who will endure to the end) BUT on the question … Is it possible to lose one’s salvation? I believe that the bible answers it YES. The phrase “it is impossible to lose your salvation” (once saved always saved) resembles a phrase in Genesis 3:4 when satan tempted Eve and said “you shall not surely die”

I believe that the phrase “IT IS IMPOSSIBLE LOSE YOUR SALVATION” ALSO COMES FROM SATAN. (I have seen this led many many “Christians” to sin)

Hebrews 3:12-14: “Take care, brethren (these are ‘holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling whose High Priest is Jesus’ – as we see in verse1), that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God………. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.”Here we read that “holy brethren” (believers) can end up having an evil, unbelieving heart that makes them fall away from the living God. We are also told that we become partakers of Christ ONLY if we hold fast our faith UNTIL THE END. These words are crystal clear, to all whose minds are unprejudiced by preconceived ideas.

Hebrews 6:4-6: “In the case of those who have been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God”.

These verses clearly refer to believers who were once made “partakers of the Holy Spirit”. We are told here that such believers CAN fall away. We are also told that it is impossible for them to return to repentance AS LONG AS (the meaning of “since”) they live in their sin and thus re-crucify the Son of God. Everyone who takes sin lightly is thereby despising the crucifixion of Christ and in a sense crucifying Christ afresh. As long as a person has that attitude to sin, he cannot be brought to repentance. If he remains in that state, he will be lost eternally. But there is hope for him if he decides to take sin seriously and thus stops re-crucifying Christ.

• Rev.3:5. “He who overcomes will be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life” These are the words that Jesus spoke to an elder (messenger) of a church and to all the believers in that church. Jesus never makes any empty threats. Read this warning of Christ’s, with an open mind and ask yourself, “Can a person’s name be erased from the book of life? Does the Lord always speak the truth?” Jesus knows more about the book of life than any of us do. We are not to use logic here, but simply accept the words of Jesus as they are. It is true that God knows the end from the beginning and so He knows who will overcome and who will not. But He is speaking to us in human terms here, so that we can beware of this danger of our names bring erased from the book of life. It is written about the final judgment: “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” (Rev.20:15). God hides these truths from clever, intelligent people who use their logic and reveals them to “babes” – those who accept His Word, exactly as it is written, with a childlike heart (Matt.11:25).

John 10:27-29: “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. When considering the promise in these verses, we must remember that there are some conditions mentioned here for the promise to be fulfilled. Most Christians do not look at the conditions! Thus they believe a false teaching. The promise of eternal security is given here ONLY to those who follow Jesus until the end. You cannot encash a cheque if it is not in your name; and you cannot claim a promise if you do not fulfil the conditions. If you are following Jesus, you certainly have eternal security. But if you are not following Him, then you are deceiving yourself if you believe that you are eternally secure. No-one can pluck you from Jesus’ hand if you follow Him. But you can choose to jump out of His hand yourself at any time – because God will never take away your free will.

Matthew 24:11-13: “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”Jesus Himself says here that to be saved, one must endure until the end. We must take these words of Jesus exactly as He spoke them, if we are to know the truth.

Matthew 6:14,15: “If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”Jesus was very accurate with His words. The fact that He used “heavenly Father” here, indicates that He was talking to God’s children and not to unbelievers. In fact, the whole sermon on the mount (of which these verses are a part) was meant for God’s children. Here Jesus tells God’s children that they will not be forgiven if they do not forgive others. What will happen to this “saved” person, if he dies in that state – unforgiven by God, because he did not forgive others. Can he enter into God’s presence with unforgiven sin? Can he receive forgiveness of sins after he has died?? There is NO forgiveness of sins beyond the grave. So he will be eternally lost. Even though He was once “saved”, he lost his salvation. Jesus made this crystal clear in the parable in Matthew 18:23-35. There we see that the entire debt that the king forgave his slave was placed back on the slave’s head and he was also put in prison – just because he did not forgive his fellow-slave. Jesus concluded the parable saying, “My heavenly Father will do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart” (v.35). This teaches clearly that ALL the sins that our heavenly Father once forgave us will be placed back upon us, if we do not forgive even one person. And if we die in that state, we will be unforgiven and therefore, eternally lost.

Romans 8:12,13: “Brethren……if you are living according to the flesh, you WILL die.”. This warning is for “brethren” – believers. The Holy Spirit tells believers here (in no uncertain terms) that they will CERTAINLY die spiritually, if they live according to the flesh – even if they were once “made alive”. Yet many preachers tell believers that they will NEVER die spiritually. God warned Adam in Genesis 2:17, that if he disobeyed God, he would “surely die” (just as it is written in Romans 8:13). But Satan said, “You surely will not die” (Gen.3:4) – just like many preachers are telling believers today. Who was right in Eden – God or Satan? Who do you think is right today – God or these false teachers?

What do YOU think?

comments

Comments

  1. I’ve read almost the entirety of this post. I can’t say I’m right as there are a range of views, but ‘standing back’ I’d be grateful of other people’s opinion on my life. I came a Christian at 16 and it completely changed my life. My sense of conscience went through the roof, I spoke in tongues and my involvement in removing social injustice and caring for the poor lead me to work for charities, help in disaster relief and even start a business (which won awards) and be on my knees every morning in prayer. Until everything in life went wrong*. That’s now 15 years ago and I’ve hardly prayed since. What happens if God lets you down? If tried talking to Christians who’re only trying to justify their faith (and find out where I went wrong) and non-Christians don’t understand. So I’ve hardly prayed in 15 years, I still go to church but sit at the back, and last Sunday the preacher said ‘step out of the boat’. I did and sank.
    *Left university in Engineering with a ‘First’. Fell madly in love with a woman I’d loved for years (and kept myself for her). Started a dot-com with investors to raise money for Children’s charities. Went ‘boom bust’. Love of my life left me (and her faith), lost over $100k (of £60k her in England), became an alcoholic. Back home to Mum to recover. Got a job, got married, have three children – never prayed once about marriage, children or work and they’re all doing just fine.

  2. anonymous-em says:

    Hi beloved.
    I’m not sure why you would have “replied” to my post, if you were responding to that of one of your fellow members – why not reply to THEIR post, instead of mine? I’m sure you can see why I’m asking.

    Moreover, it’s a bit difficult to understand exactly which of my posts you mean, and why you would respond to ALL of my posts with such a necessarily inexact verse, without providing any context.

    You also mentioned that you regarded talking to me as “a waste of time”. That’s fine, of course because it’s your opinion. I’m not sure you’re clear on my motivations for posting here, but just to re-iterate: I’m not attempting to be converted, to seek advice or god, God or gods, nor am I trying to change your mind in the slightest. If you like, I am trying to “read” you. I’ve already read the bible, but it’s clear that different people interpret the bible in different ways, and for different reasons.

    You bring up “proof” too – and you disingenuously imply that there will “never be enough” for me. This is wrong. There IS a way to prove god,God or gods to me, but they need to be logical. I have an open mind, I am prepared to accept god, God or gods when the logical criteria are satisfied – I note, however that you are the inverse of this case – you claim you will “never” leave god – which suggests you do NOT have a mind open enough to consider alternatives.

    Beloved, this is exactly what I’m trying to understand, because to me, this kind of closure has an unclear rationale. As you admit, it’s dependent on circular reasoning, etc.

    I suppose my only question to you, beloved, is – would you profess to having an “open mind” or not?

    • Em, you write:

      "There IS a way to prove god,God or gods to me, but they need to be logical. I have an open mind, I am prepared to accept god, God or gods when the logical criteria are satisfied – I note, however that you are the inverse of this case – you claim you will "never" leave god – which suggests you do NOT have a mind open enough to consider alternatives."

      Would you care to tell us what kind of proof would be acceptable to you?

      Could you give some examples?

      I'm of the opinion that most atheists can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

      Just out of interest: can you give me a "logical" proof that you are a human being, an not just an artificial intelligence bot developed by a very clever computer scientist?

      • anonymous-em says:

        Hi micheal, thanks for your questions. Can I say that I’m very glad you feel free to ask ME hard questions too, and I think this is the point of my joining this forum – ultimately, it will probably benefit everyone.

        What proof do I need?
        Something that is testable. Something that is falsafiable. something from which a “prediction” can be made.
        These are somewhat nebulous, but they generally describe what I need. Bear in mind that my tool is logic, which demands these things. for me to use my “tool”, I need to be able to satsify these requirements. This is exactly the same tool that we have used, with increasing importance, since before the rise of of agriculture, and the application is breathtaking and obvious. I’m not saying that this tool is the “best”, but it is certainly the “best that we know”.

        As for your final question: logical proof that I am a human (my subject is a joke, I don’t mean anything by it, just that this is a kind of output from a computer program bug. I’m trying to be funny.)
        I think your question is not so much if I am a “human” (which is explicitly defined BY my, and your perceived physical appearance), but if I “exist in the way I think I do”; I think this is your question, so I’ll try to answer that instead (feel free to let me know if you need me to prove that I’m a “human”, rather than if “I exist”).

        Your answer depends on the nature of “existence”; how I understand existence to manifest, and how I understand the level of my interaction with reality. Quite simply, I exist because I think I do – but am I a “human” and not a “computer program”? Of course, this is an impossible question to answer, but I think the relevant point you’re getting at is NOT my origins, but the ramifications of my ability to understand my origins.
        Of course, I could be a computer program, and I easily accept the validity of that hypothesis. I also accept that it’s impossible to invalidate this hypothesis – and it’s truth, or not, has absolutely no impact whatsoever on my daily life (since if I can’t test it, then I can’t interact with it, therefore I can’t wilfully or knowingly understand, manipulate, or be manipulated by it). The truth (if it IS true) of this case has no useful impact on my life at all.
        If the computer program that is me, is pre-indoctrinated with a philosophy, and prevented from fully exploring the reality of that philosophy, then I simply cannot be anything other than what I’m told I am. If I’m told that I am created by something else, and prevented from exploring the reality or feasibility, then of course, to me I will always be a mere computer program. if the concept of “free will” is “coded in”, but then given strict limitations based on the prospect of punishment (real or not), then again, this is still a limitation.
        HOWEVER – If I am given freedom to explore and test my reality, then I can start to try to validate that indoctrination more fully. Only when I feel that I have freedom to explore do I even have a hope of understanding what I am. Being told what questions I can and can’t ask, what I can or can’t believe in will only ever produce a formulaic and predicable outcome: a program that simply executes the commands with unyeilding obedience.
        I like to think that I have been given the freedom to think that I am “not created”, therefore I can explore BOTH hypothises that “I am created” and “I am not created”. I can test them to the full extent of my comprehension. I think being given the freedom to think what I want to think is the most important property available to me – computer program OR human.

        • michael says:

          … but in fact I was asking the question in a different sense. I am talking about how hard it can be to "prove" things that we think are obvious and generally don't question. Perhaps I am chatting with an advanced digital AI bot which can pass the Turing test. How can  know for sure that I am not?

           

          If it be the case that your humanness is hard to prove, how much more would a skeptical mind find it easy to dismiss any "proof" of the existence of God, which uses alleged communications from God as evidences of God's existence? But if these alleged communications are disallowed as evidence, especially the evidence around the life, death and (alleged) resurrection of Jesus Christ, then indeed, there is a lot less to go on.

           

          I think the historical eyewitness accounts of the resurrection of Christ, combined with a legal examination of the facts, plus the miracles that happen today in the name of Jesus, provide good evidence for faith in Christ. Whether it meets YOUR qualifications for evidence of course is another matter.

           

           

          Ultimately, we believe that no one can come to faith in Christ unless God gives that person the ability to do so. Unaided reason alone will not bring a person to true saving faith.

           

          What PROOF do you have that your requirements for valid evidence are the right ones that a truth seeker should use? Do you apply these tests in your personal relationships with other people, for example, with members of your own family?

          • anonymous-em says:

            Hi Michael.
            I agree with you!!!.
            It is VERY hard to prove things that we take for granted to be fact. Obviously then – we probably shouldn’t!

            Indeed, you COULD be talking to an advanced AI – so smart that not even the AI knows! (have you seen bladerunner? – I drew the subject title from that movie and exactly this issue is raised, and it’s rather sad! – but why should it be?). So – you can’t know, and neither can I. The best you can do is acknowledge that you can’t know – Occams razor allows you to make the most plausible assumption – but it will always be an assumption.

            Your 2nd paragraph is not so difficult. My anatomy, as is yours, is perfectly consistent with what “humans” have “defined” to be “human”. So my humanity is not “proven”, it is “defined”. The characteristics of a “human” are defined by “me” (or “you”, or “the guy next to me”). My human-ness is not difficult to prove, because were I anything other than what I am, the definition of “human” would change also.

            As far as I know – the only case where eyewitness accounts are detailed is in the bible – and this is something of a problem because resurrection is not commonplace. Gods are not commonplace, nor are their actions definable, reproducible, testable or falsifiable. This means that, while they MIGHT have happened, occams’ razor allows us to eliminate them as “probable”. These qualities are what I, and any other researcher, demand of their “proof”. Again, and as in our AI example – they MAY be true -but since they fly in the face of common experience and we can’t test them, which means that we cannot assume them to be correct in the first instance – we need ADDITIONAL ways to test them (which we don’t have.. so we’re in a bind here..)

            What proof do I have that my requirements are valid?
            An excellent question – essentially you’re asking if the tool of “logic” (since this is what I’m using) is valid. It’s well-known and often-discussed topic.
            The validity of logic is demonstrable – it works. We know it works. This validates the method BUT it does not validate it as the “ONLY” method. However, there are NO other methods that work quite as well as logic – so it is the “BEST” method. To be slightly provocative, prayer does not result in the haber (agriculture) method. Logic does. Without the haber method, people starve.

            As for tests in my personal relationships – what do you mean? I don’t “test” my family!! They either exhibit enjoyment when I am with them, or they don’t! – preferably they tell me!. Perhaps I misunderstand your point?

          • michael says:

            You say, "We probably shouldn't" – which would mean, in the example I just gave, that I probably should not assume you are a human being.

            We don't live like that. You don't treat your family like that. If you did, they would think you crazy.

            I'd like to say that your belief that your beliefs are based on "logic" alone doesn't correspond to reality. Everyone carries some presuppositions, axioms or whatever into their thinking. Logic builds on these presuppositions to form conclusions. But if the presupposition is false, the conclusions will be false also.

            You seem to assume for example that Occam's razor is the best  tool of choice for discerning truth. But who is Occam? By what rule of reasoning should we accept that HIS rule is universally the best?

            I will tell you what I believe is a great way to prove the existence of the God of the Bible. It is this. Live and talk as if the Bible is true, and see if the result is that you experience the extraordinary miraculous promises mentioned in the Bible. I did, and found that it worked. I received answers to prayer in the natural order of things which seem to defy naturalistic explanation.

          • anonymous-em says:

            I think it’s probably not necessary for you to make blind assertions about me Michael, particularly about how you think I should use logic, and PARTICULARLY when what you’re saying I should do – is actually illogical.

            Firstly, you presented a contrived scenario specifically to show that demanding “proof” leads to the acceptance of what YOU regard as impossible scenarios.
            When I acknowledged that this is how logic works, you then rejected the conclusions out of hand.
            Well, I can’t teach you to understand logic Michael – the bottom line is this – if you can’t “prove” that something is “not”, then you “Must” logically accept that it “may”. This is not my opinion, it is not contrived, it is not implausibility, it is pure logic. Opinion, religion or place of birth simply doesn’t come into it.

            The fact remains Michael, no matter how hard you want it to NOT be, the possibility still remains, simply because you cannot conclusively and irrefutably reject it. Again, this is really just pure math.

            You then do a strange thing – you attempt to launch an attack on the reasoning of Occam. It’s not my place here to teach you what occam is – you can do that in your own time. Of course, the strategy ALSO depends on logic, to which you seem to harbour an aversion. You continue to ask the same question I’ve been addressing for some time now – who says logic is the best?
            The fact that you are still alive, have heating, and communicate to people on the other side of the planet – all made possible by logic – shows that it is the best. Again, it might NOT be the “absolute” best, but it is certainly the best that we know about. Prayer does not produce the haber process, logic does.

            “I will tell you what I believe is a great way to prove the existence of the God of the Bible. It is this. Live and talk as if the Bible is true”
            Hmmm, so before I can conclude that the bible is true, I have to first assume it to be true?

            I think we’ve already covered this one too – it’s about as circular as you can be. Of course you found that it worked, logically you MUST find it works, it’s the assumption you make in the first case! – this is NOT a sensible proposition . If you “assume” that the sun goes around the earth, then of course your conclusion is that the sun goes around the earth! – you’ve assumed it to be in the first instance, therefore you will try your hardest to continue to validate the assumptin (and yes, there ARE people who hold that this is the case!, amazing isn’t it?)

          • Chris Petersen says:

            Pure logical thinking cannot yield us any knowledge of the empirical world:
            all knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

            “The free, unhampered exchange of ideas and scientific conclusions is necessary for the sound development of science, as it is in all spheres of life.” (Albert Einstein, 1952)

            “The task is not so much to see what no one yet has seen, but to think what no body yet has thought about that which everyone sees.” (Arthur Schopenhauer, 1788 – 1860).

            “It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this.” (Bertrand Russell)

            “People who know little are usually great talkers, while men who know much say little.” (Jean-Jacques Rousseau)

            “I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn’t, than live my life as if there isn’t and die to find out there is.” (Albert Camus, 1913 – 1960)

            “The best and indeed the fastest way to solve a problem, is to surround yourself with idiots and learn from their mistakes.” (Christopher John Petersen)

            Seek not one who answers your questions, but rather one who questions your answers. (Christopher John Petersen)

            If one is so wet behind the ears that they find themselves in waters over their head, my advice to them would be; unless they can tread water indefinitely, they should seriously consider getting themself a life-preserver [Jesus Christ]. (Christopher John Petersen)

          • lookinforacity says:

            Chris

            No success is ever possable with that viewpoint, they know not of whence they speak.

            It is impossible to prove the existence of God, to those who do not believe, God exists.
            It is impossible to disprove the existence of God, to those who do believe God exists.

            Mat.11:27
            All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, (AND HE TO WHOMSOEVER THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM).

            Joh. 6:44
            (NO MAN CAN COME) to me, (EXCEPT THE FATHER) which hath sent me (DRAW HIM):

            Heb. 11:6
            But without faith it is impossible to please him: (FOR HE THAT COMETH TO GOD MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS), and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

            Rom. 3:11
            There is none that understandeth, (THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD).

            2Co. 5:7
            (FOR WE WALK BY FAITH, NOT BY SIGHT:>)

            JIM

          • Chris Petersen says:

            My proverb “If one is so wet behind the ears that they find themselves in waters over their head, my advice to them would be; unless they can tread water indefinitely, they should seriously consider getting themself a life-preserver [Jesus Christ].” means that Noe “listened to God, did what God told him to do and DIDN’T NEED TO LEARN TO SWIM TO BE SAVED. He was saved through his Faith and Trust in God.

            Be Blessed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

            Christopher John Petersen.
            p.s. I just threw in some quotes from anomyous-em’s peers for GOOD MEASURE.

    • Beloved says:

      You wrote >>>>> ” I’m not sure why you would have “replied” to my post, if you were responding to that of one of your fellow members – why not reply to THEIR post, instead of mine? I’m sure you can see why I’m asking.”
      Me< << ( Sigh) I was replying to a fellow member.You replied to my reply,so I replied to your reply of my reply. :) You >>>>> ” Moreover, it’s a bit difficult to understand exactly which of my posts you mean, and why you would respond to ALL of my posts with such a necessarily inexact verse, without providing any context.” Me< << The context would be your own words:(although these were stated later) 'I have an open mind, I am prepared to accept god, God or gods when the logical criteria are satisfied.", and all of your other post with THIS Theme. (Apparently,you have been in dialog with others on a variety of topics,so I apologize for the "blanket" verse.) Let me repeat: 1Cr 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." The natural man in this verse,is you,and all others who would attempt to understand God with their "natural" mind, or through logic. Logically, it will be foolishness to you. Also, since you are spiritually dead,you are unable to discern spiritual things. So,it is a one sided debate or discussion since we know things that you can not understand. You>>>>>”You also mentioned that you regarded talking to me as “a waste of time”. That’s fine, of course because it’s your opinion. I’m not sure you’re clear on my motivations for posting here,” Me< <<< I wasn't referring to your motivations,but ours.If you saw someone drowning in a lake,you would throw him a life line,because you would want to save him. If the drowning person doesn't believe he is drowning,you would still throw him a life line,but to argue with the person about whether or not the life line exist,would be a waste of time. We are compelled by love to tell you to grab the "life line" In retrospect,I wish I would not have said that.It sounded much more harsh than I intended.It is not a waste of time to talk to you,rather I felt trying to prove God's existence to you is.You will not believe without empirical evidence.We can not give it. It simply can not be done. Again,this may not be your goal here,but I can assure you that it is ours because we understand that there is much more at stake here than stimulating conversation. You >>>>>” you claim you will “never” leave god – which suggests you do NOT have a mind open enough to consider alternatives.” Me >>>> Why would I ever leave something I KNOW to be true? I am ashamed to say that it was only after exhausting all the other alternatives that I came to believe! After I came to believe,God graciously allowed me to know. You see, I am very similar to you.No,unfortunately,not a brilliant astrophysicist,but I had a lot of the same questions and wanted a lot of answers.So began my quest,and my exploration into the “alternatives”.”I found them lacking”,to borrow a phrase.
      So,to answer your question as to whether or not I have an open mind,yes,I do. So open,in fact, that it wasn’t satisfied until it found TRUTH.
      If you are willing to keep an “open mind” and maybe a little humility,you will find it too.
      With His love,and in His love,
      Beloved

      • anonymous-em says:

        Hi beloved.

        This is what I was looking for:
        “so I apologize for the “blanket” verse”
        whew!, at least I’m not going nuts and that you were writing what I thought you were writing. Many thanks!

        I’m not sure if it’s necessary to respond to the rest of your post, perhaps in a more relevant blog – later.

  3. jesseedavis says:

    I’m just trying to see how this works more than anything, so bear with me I guess.

    Ever since I came to Christ, the only real issue I’ve had is with sexual sins. I go through those cycles where I start thinking about women or lusting after them, and spending however long of praying, fighting, etc. for pure thoughts and to keep from going deeper into sin. Sometimes, things would turn around and other times I’d slip up or give in and end up giving up altogether. After having given up, I’d spend a week or month or maybe even two or three months indulging in the porn and lust and masturbation before I’d again feel conviction and guilt and even attempt to get out of things again.

    With my current relationship, this cycle went a little different. Rather than porn and masturbation, we both gave up and spent 7 months having sex upon every chance we got. We gave up on Christ and chose ourselves and each other over Him.

    What is your take on instances like this?

    • My dear brother, it is possible to cave in and follow fleshly desires, but it is also possible to pursue righteousness and be filled with the Holy Spirit, so that your satisfaction and joy in life comes from the presence of God in your body, not from sexual sin.

      Come back to the Lord, repent of the things God condemns and seek out those who can minister deliverance to you.

  4. Timothy Luke says:

    The tone of exhortation to believers proves the need for those believers to be vigilant for their lives. The context of Paul and the other apostles believing once saved always saved would generate a whole different tone in scripture, if you think about it.

    Jesus would spend a whole lot less time saying, things like, "watch and pray that ye be accounted worthy to escape tribulation," and more time saying, "praise God that you are saved!"

    The apostles would be one great big "Hallelujah, we are saved!" and not a constant call to resisting and overcoming…. for why preach overcoming if we had already attained?

  5. lookinforacity says:

    Hi Pio

    When you say
    “I have seen this led many many “Christians” to sin”

    The point you have just voiced, is the crux of the question, not whether a Christian can loose their salvation, but whether a Christian can sin.

    Sin as we all know, is the only thing which can separate us from God.

    Therefore if a Christian cannot sin, a Christian cannot be separated from God, if a Christian cannot be separated from God, they cannot loose their salvation.

    1) Why would a Christian ever exert their free will, by walking away from God?

    2) Do we make the assumption, everyone professing to be a Christian, and attending church services on a Sunday morning are truly saved?

    Be Blessed
    JIM

    • bornagainbytheblood says:

      Jim – after enduring for a while, some do abandon the faith; perhaps the trails are too rough and they had no root within themselves to endure; this is Bible.

      • lookinforacity says:

        Hi Stephen

        As you say, this is bible, just what do you mean by root, “they had no root within themselves to endure”?

        I am having to assume you are referring to the parable of the sower, seeing that you neglected to post any scripture as your reflectance.

        JIM

      • Beloved says:

        I believe those who abandon the faith,never had any to begin with. What they more likely were doing is religion, trying to be good enough. Jesus says “apart from me you can do nothing. He was correct (of course) , they couldn’t do it, and left.
        In His Grip, ( so I can’t fall)
        Beloved

        • anonymous-em says:

          @beloved.

          You maintain that those who leave the faith never had any to start with.

          The trouble is – how do you tell if you have the faith to start with? Almost every person I know who has left your faith were as convicted in their dedication as you appear to be. They would have said exactly the same things as you – indeed, some of them confess they did. In addition, none of them ever accepted the possibility that they might, at some time in the future, leave.

          The fact remains that noone seems to have any idea if they will leave your faith or not. There is no metric, no test, no gague, no assesment that can possibly discern who will maintain, and who will ultimately reject your faith. I will also submit, mostly likely to your strong protest, that YOU may well leave your faith in the future – unbelievable isn’t it? indeed – my now-atheist friends were similarly incrudulous before they figured themselves out.

          my point – don’t be too quick to judge – you have absolutely no way of knowing if you will leave or not. To instantly reject the possiblity is to reject easily obtainable fact and reality.

          • 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
            Beloved

            P.S. I am praying for you! 🙂

          • anonymous-em says:

            Hi Beloved.
            I am familiar with that verse. ..
            but I’m not sure what relevance it has here?
            could you elaborate?

          • Beloved says:

            I was responding to a fellow members post.(We do not always agree on certain issues,but I do hope it remains evident that we all love each other as brothers and sisters in the faith) Anyway,you interjected a question and a few opinions on the matter. The verse of scripture I cited as response to your post is relevant,not only to this particular post ,but to most you have written. You see,we are talking about things that you cannot possibly understand.I applaud fellow members attempts with you,but frankly I believe it to be a waste of time.While to us there appears to be an inordinate amount of proof of a Creator,there will never be enough for you.
            I can assure you though,that I will never,never, leave my faith. It is no longer only mental assent but a real relationship with the one who formed me in my mothers womb.It is also no longer blind faith,as I have experienced the tangible reality of God. I am not at the mercy of any of your arguments for proof,nor do I want to be.
            I am praying for you,not so you are forced to think a particular way,only so you can get the entire picture about what it is you are thinking:
            2Cr 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 2Cr 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
            (Oh yes I know- circular reasoning ,and using material that you find lacking 😉
            Beloved

          • Paul the apostle chose co-workers who later abandoned him for the world. Like Demas, who loved this present age. I am sure Paul was wise enough to know who truly believed in Jesus when he selected co-workers.

            We are told to keep ourselves in the love of God (Jude 20 or thereabouts). Not to assume that we cannot fall away if we have faith today. 

            The Scripture speaks of men DEPARTING from the faith. 1 Timothy 4:1. Its a Scriptural as well as an empirical fact.

      • Beloved says:

        Remember also when you say that some abandon the faith, that you are only witness to a part of their life.Who knows what happens later?
        Beloved

  6. bornagainbytheblood says:

    pio wrote, “Is it possible to lose one’s salvation? I believe that the bible answers it YES. The phrase “it is impossible to lose your salvation” (once saved always saved) resembles a phrase in Genesis 3:4 when satan tempted Eve and said ‘you shall not surely die'”

    >> Amen, friend! You walked away from a great heresy that is damning the multitudes.

    1 Peter 1:13 – Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    • Beloved says:

      BornintheBlood wrote >> Amen, friend! You walked away from a great heresy that is damning the multitudes.
      Multitudes? Really? Just why are they damned? For believing in the supremacy of Jesus sacrifice over sin? For believing the Good News?.
      Because, when I had a revelation of just how much Jesus’ blood purchased for me;My sins forgiven,becoming spiritually alive,having been made the righteousness of God in Christ, adopted into the family of the Most High God, a joint heir with Jesus! ,the only response that I could have is first to get on my face before the Lord in sincere gratitude and adoration. Then to fall head over heels in love with the Lover of my soul. I don’t use my freedom from the fear of death as a license to sin!, and I don’t serve and love God to stay out of Hell!
      There are no safety nets, no formulas and there is no fear in a love based relationship…….I don’t know how to explain any better, you get it or you don’t.
      I do think that this is a deeper layer of understanding that is revealed by the Holy Spirit and backed up by scripture…
      Beloved

      • bornagainbytheblood says:

        Beloved wrote: “Multitudes? Really? Just why are they damned? For believing in the supremacy of Jesus sacrifice over sin? For believing the Good News?.”

        >> Jesus’ blood no longer covers the souls of those who willfully sin. People who believe in OSAS have a false sense of security. To be saved, and stay saved, requires obedience. A believer can’t look to Jesus’ obedience to excuse their disobedience because Jesus’ obedience is our example of how we are to walk in this life. Jesus showed us the new and living way, one free from sin; the road is narrow.

        • lookinforacity says:

          Hi Stephen

          In light of this statement of yours
          “Jesus showed us the new and living way, one free from sin; the road is narrow.”

          I ask you two questions
          1) Can a Christian sin?
          2) At what point does a continually repeated and forgiven sin, become a willful sin?

          Be Blessed
          JIM

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            JIM asked:

            1) Can a Christian sin?
            >> Yes, one can sin, as he/she has free will; and if it’s willful, one has fallen from grace. Ignorant sin, however, will be exposed to the believer by the Holy Spirit — and it is to be corrected.

            2) At what point does a continually repeated and forgiven sin, become a willful sin?
            >> To be considered willful sin, it only takes one time. The moment one gives himself/herself over to something that he/she knows is against God then it’s willful. One doesn’t accidentally commit willful sin.

            We must be diligent and vigilant with our lives. We must know what is sin and what isn’t. How can we know? The Word of God, so we must study to show ourselves approved unto God. We need to discard our theories and fully accepted what God says is sin and what isn’t. There’s a great, and inexpensive, book on this crucial topic. Anyone can send me a direct message if they really want to be assured of their salvation, and to untie God’s hands for their life; one really needs to study this book that provides about 700 scriptures showing that we must live free from sin to make it to heaven.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Stephen

            Let me see if I understand you correctly, your doctrine that a Christian can loose their Salvation, is based on another doctrine, that a Christian has the Free Will to sin, or walk away from their salvation, is this correct?

            On what grounds do you as a Christian claim to have a Free Will?

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            JIM – if there’s no free will, then God cannot judge anyone. But, since there is, the individual will be held accountable for their actions. Nevertheless, I don’t want to go down that road, as I’ve heard so many people try to make that argument. At the end of the day, OSAS is damnable heresy. The soul that continues to sin will die, whether they profess Jesus’ name or not.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Stephen

            You say
            “if there’s no free will, then God cannot judge anyone.”

            While what you say is absolutely true, haven’t you, and every other Christian alive today, already been judged for our sins, and been found innocent? Has not the blood sacrifice of Jesus, covered us from all sin?

            You say
            “the individual will be held accountable for their actions.”

            Again, while what you say is absolutely true, that only applies to those who have chosen to exercise their free will, and thereby rejected the grace of God, the blood atonement, for the forgiveness of their sins.

            You say
            “The soul that continues to sin will die”

            For the third time, while what you say is absolutely true, the bible says whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him, for he that commits sin is of the devil for the devil sinned from the beginning, for this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil, whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

            Now that you understand we are on the same page as far as those things are concerned, lets move on to the next thing in the equation.

            Free Will:
            Upon our conversion, we relinquish our free will to Gods’ Will, as Jesus Himself prayed in the garden of Gethsemane
            “nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
            Php 2:7
            But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
            Tit 1:1
            Paul, a servant of God
            Jas 1:1
            James, a servant of God
            2Pe 1:1
            Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ
            1Co 7:22
            For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord’s freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ’s servant.

            Christians place so much value in their Free Will.
            Christians do not any longer possess a Free Will as we think of it.
            Before a person becomes a Christian, they have a Free Will to accept or reject the salvation offered to them by God.
            Through the process of becoming a Christian, the person Freely relinquishes their Free Will to God, thereby becoming His servant. You have by your own free will chosen to die to self, by placing yourself into the service of God.

            SERVANT:
            G1401
            δοῦλος
            doulos
            doo’-los
            From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): – bond (-man), servant.

            G1210
            δέω
            deō
            deh’-o
            A primary verb; to bind (in various applications, literally or figuratively): – bind, be in bonds, knit, tie, wind.

            Now if you have become dead to the law, dead to sin, and relinquished your free will to Gods’ will for your life, how can you sin, how can you walk away from your salvation?

            Be blessed
            JIM

          • jesseedavis says:

            Reading through your posts and blogs and everything, a question you ask quite often is “How can you sin?” Am I right in assuming that you are implying that we cannot sin anymore?

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Jessee

            The short answer, an absolute “YES”

            1Jn 3:7-9

            7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
            8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
            9) Whosoever is born of God ( DOTH NOT COMMIT SIN); (FOR HIS SEED REMANETH IN HIM): and (HE CANNOT SIN), because (HE IS BORN OF GOD).

            I started with the verse 7 intentionally, because it mentions, “he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”

            2Co 5:21
            For he hath (MADE HIM TO BE SIN FOR US), who knew no sin; (THAT WE MIGHT BE MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM).

            Declarations from the Bible made about Christians:
            1) We are in Christ
            2) We are the righteousness of God in Christ
            3) We are dead to the law
            4) We are dead to sin

            Declaration
            1. an explicit or emphatic statement
            2. a formal statement or announcement; proclamation
            3. the act of declaring

            Declaration is a statement creating legal relationship, or status; ( also ): – – the instrument embodying such a statement. – – – (in this case the Bible) as supreme authority, in matters concerning Christians.

            There is so much more, if we would but look with an open heart.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Stephen

            The other question I asked you was
            2) At what point does a continually repeated and forgiven sin, become a willful sin?

            Your answer
            To be considered willful sin, it only takes one time. The moment one gives himself/herself over to something that he/she knows is against God then it’s willful. One doesn’t accidentally commit willful sin.

            So what your saying is that after a person becomes saved, and they inadvertently sin, this sin will be exposed to the believer by the Holy Spirit.
            Then the correction made by the believer, would be asking for forgiveness of this sin, if this person commits the same sin again, this then would constitute willful sin, then according to Heb. 6:4-6 there would not be any place for repentance, and they will go to hell?
            God then in essence only gives us 2 strikes, then were out?
            I think I finally see, and understand what you are talking about, to you the road truly is a narrow one isn’t it? The term you have based your belief in, is called Legalism.
            You didn’t do anything to gain your salvation, and it is just as true, you can do nothing to keep it, our salvation is a work of Jesus Christ, by the Grace of God through our faith in His son.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            No, JIM, you’re not fully understanding my points. Also, obedience is not legalism, it’s the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Grace is what enables the believer to walk holy paths before the Lord. Grace is not a pass to walk according to the flesh.

            Lastly, there’s a difference between a debt and willful sin. Jesus said in the Lord’s prayer, “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” – Matthew 6:12

            Jesus also said, “…Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.” – John 8:34

        • >>There are no safety nets, no formulas and there is no fear in a love based relationship…….I don’t know how to explain any better, you get it or you don’t.
          You don’t get it.

          Pray for revelation.
          Beloved

  7. Don Preece says:

    I know a lot of people who believe in the doctrine once saved always saved. I generally lead them to the scripture where Paul said that he runs and fights so that when he has preached to others, he himself would not be a castaway. We need to be able to give an answer to those who are mislead when we can.

    Don Preece
    (Bible Study Boy)

    • MelodyCat says:

      Thanks Don,

      That is a good scripture to quote.

      Thirty years ago when I came to Christ through University through and Evangelical group they tuaght an “Assurance of Salvation”. There were many denominations and Christian evangelical groups or Fellowships on Campus. I found through getting to know many Christians from these other groups on this we agreed. One can lose their salvation but the Bible teaches us that we can be Assured of our Salvation.

      It is only recently that I kept hearing Once Saved Always Saved. Like many new trends in Christianity it has certainly taken hold. What a change I have seen on this understanding of Salvation.

      I still hold to the fact that we have chosen the Lord and we can walk away from Him also. Of course that is also dependant on not being a Calvinist. Which is another teaching that has really taken hold as well “Predestination”.

      I won’t argue the cases against both of these but I wan to say that I can only imagine Satan is having a field day getting us all confused and being at odds with one another so close to the start of the Tribulation. Satans days are numbered and He wants to make Christians as ineffective as possible near the end. Divide and conquer.

      I pray and ask the Lord to help teach His Children from His Word through His Spirit. That is more useful than arguing and debating. I also hope it doesn’t stop the ability for Christians to at least get the Gospel message to the LOST so that they have every chance to Repent and get Saved.

      Have you noticed that no longer do many Teachers emphasize the need for repentance these days as well?

      The Apostle Paul points the ability for people to endanger their salvation in the following verse. Pauls terms it “shipwreck their faith”.

      1TI 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

      You have to ask “how can we endanger our salvation if Once Saved Always Saved?”

    • I know this is an old post, but I would like to talk about that word CASTAWAY. The word castaway can be an adjective or a noun. The particular verse that you referred to is 1 Corinthians 9:27. In the case of verse 27, castaway is an adjective. The dictionary that I have here at the house describes castaway like this:

      Castaway—adjective 1: thrown away: REJECTED 2: cast adrift or ashore as a survivor of a shipwreck—castaway > noun

      As one can see, the first definition is for the adjective, the second one is for the noun. As you know, adjectives are descriptive words. They are used to describe a noun, or pronoun. So, Paul is not saying he would be a castaway in the sense of being a survivor of a shipwreck, but he is describing an undesirable possibility.

      The Greek word for castaway is ADOKIMOS. I have researched several websites as to the meaning of adokimos, or castaway, and I could not find any definitions that stated precisely that castaway means loss of salvation. A person would almost have to assume that is what the word was implying. However, I did find words like “unapproved”, “unworthy”, “disqualified”, etc. Here is the verse in its context.

      1 Corinthians 9:24-27
      (24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

      (25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [Crown is understood.]

      (26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

      (27) But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

      Paul compares our Christian walk with running a race. We are to discipline ourselves, so as to set a good example for others. By setting a good example, we can win others to Christ with confidence. If we do, we will be rewarded with an incorruptible crown. Paul himself does not want to fall short of winning that crown.

      Several other crowns are mentioned in the New Testament, also. See below.

      1 Thessalonians 2:19
      For what [is] our hope, or joy, or CROWN OF REJOICING? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

      2 Timothy 4:8
      Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

      James 1:12
      Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

      1 Peter 5:4
      And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a CROWN OF GLORY that fadeth not away.

      Another interesting thing I found had to do with the root word for castaway. The root word in the Greek is dokimos and it means: “1) accepted, particularly of coins and money. 2) accepted, pleasing, acceptable”. By adding an “a” to the front of the word, it becomes adokimos and it takes on the opposite meaning of dokimos. There is an explanation concerning the first definition in the paragraph below.

      “In the ancient world there was no banking system as we know it today, and no paper money. All money was made from metal, heated until liquid, poured into moulds and allowed to cool. When the coins were cooled, it was necessary to smooth off the uneven edges. The coins were comparatively soft, and of course many people shaved them closely. In one century, more than eighty laws were passed in Athens to stop the practice of whittling down the coins then in circulation. But some money-changers were men of integrity, who would accept no counterfeit money; they were men of honour who put only genuine, full-weight money into circulation. Such men were called dokimos, and this word is used here for the Christian as he is to be seen by the world.” (Donald Grey Barnhouse, Romans: God’s Glory, p. 18.)

      Referenced from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1384&t=KJV

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