Welcome,
Does the Roman Catholic Church represent the true Christian faith?
"Let it be known to you all ... by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead ... This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12)
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all." (1 Timothy 2:5,6).
Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me". (John 14:6)
"the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37).
The Roman Catholic church speaks truly on many issues. But the most important issue of all for us is the issue of salvation. Indeed, we have all sinned and corrupted ourselves (Romans 3:23). So much so that we can never approach God Almighty on the basis of our own merits or goodness. The question for a seeker after God is then: how may I approach God? As we can see from the Bible verses above, the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. These verses present Christ not only as being the Only Way, but also as being One who welcomes us. The Roman Catholic church has undermined this vital revelation of Christ in several ways.
The Roman Catholic church has presented Mary to the world as the one who will intercede for us to Jesus. Catholic popes have always glorified Mary. Thus Pope Leo XIII stated in his rosary encyclical, "Octobri mense" (1891): "Nobody can approach Christ except through the mother". But this is patently false, if the gospels are to be believed, because the gospels are full of examples of people coming to Christ directly. These stories contain no references to Mary whatsoever. The leper of Matthew 8:2, for example, did not request an interview with Mary before coming and worshiping Christ. Neither need we. Unclean as we may be, we can come to Jesus directly and receive cleansing from our wonderful Savior. He is not an angry Savior who must be placated by his mother. There is no other mediator between God and men besides Jesus. Not Mary, not saints, not special priests. None of these can repent and believe for you, and God requires you to repent and believe the gospel before you can be truly saved. "Unless you repent, you also will perish" (Luke 13:3). "He who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me Me has everlasting life" said Jesus (John 5:24). I sincerely counsel all people of Roman Catholic persuasion to simply hear the Words of Jesus as recorded in the gospels for us. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
"But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached..." (2 Corinthians 11:3,4).
Popes and priests of the Roman Catholic church have not only presented a false Savior to the world. They have also clouded the issue of who Jesus Christ really is as Lord and Savior, by substituting another Jesus for the One that truly is. For example, they have declared that their specially blessed "hosts" in the Mass are truly "Jesus". The Council of Trent, which is still in force today for Catholics, states that anyone who denies that the host is truly Jesus is "anathema" - cursed and to be damned. I treat this issue more fully in some of my material below. It is an important point. Its important to realise that the Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus was a once for all sacrifice, and cannot be truly repeated at the Mass (Hebrews 10:12; 14).. This is where priests and popes have lied. The truth is not in them, since they blatantly contradict the Scriptures they profess to honor. They place their traditions and what they say above what God says. The two are not the same.
Many have written to me telling me that I am really very ignorant concerning the Catholic church. I don't profess to know everything - the Catholic religion is extremely complicated and you have to study a lot to know it well. However, here is the story of a man who did study these things, lived and ministered as a Roman Catholic priest for years, and then after some agony of heart and conscience realised the error of his ways and repented, becoming a true born again Christian.
Read here the life testimony of Richard Peter Bennett who was a Roman Catholic priest and studied at the The Angelicum University in Rome.
By the way, although I've met plenty of people who have been turned off God by the Catholic church and its representatives, that wasn't my personal experience. My motivation for writing is to point people to Jesus and away from the substitutes that have been offered. I don't have some kind of grudge against the Roman Catholic church at all. I am also against any attempt by Protestants or Catholics to impose their religion on one another by force. Such things have happened on both sides and are contrary to the Spirit of Christ no matter in which camp they originate.
Do You Know the Lord?
You may know far more about the teachings of the Roman Catholic church than me. I'd like to ask you though, "Do you know the Lord?" I'm not even asking you if you know the Bible teaching about the Lord. Some Roman Catholics do know the Lord, but the majority sadly do not. There are also many Protestants who do not know the Lord. Evangelicals, those who take the Holy Scriptures as the final authority on matters of faith and doctrine, have the advantage that they tend to go directly to the Scriptures to understand God's will, rather than to a priest. The priest may be good or he may be bad, as men count these things, but unless Jesus Christ is truly in his life, He has no chance of really showing the way to heaven. Instead, he offers rituals which may represent the life of Jesus, but don't impart it. These rituals all symbolise the truly important things, but they confuse the form with the reality. See here.
No church can save. Only Jesus can save (Acts 4:12). Having a relationship with the Apostle Peter cannot save you. You may trust your priest. But do you truly trust Christ? The Roman Catholic church has failed to lift up Jesus Christ properly and has many times instead presented the world with "another Jesus" in the form of an icon, a host, a priest or a pope. But "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). The real Jesus sets people free from guilt and shame, from demons and disease by giving them the truth of His Word, the power of His Spirit, and cleansing through His blood. It is this Jesus that we must come to know personally. Accept no substitutes!
Your priest may know his bishop, who knows the cardinal, who knows the pope, who traces himself back to Peter. But it should be obvious that the purity and power of the way of Jesus Christ has been lost long ago through all this transmission. A number of the popes were godless sinners, some even had sexual orgies. Others, thinking they offered God service, ordered the murder of simple gospel believing Christian people. Is it wise to just believe everything the Catholic church says without taking the time to think about the issues? What if the way of salvation taught by Rome is now radically different to the one taught be Jesus and the apostles? Thankfully the Roman Catholic church has not been permitted by God to radically alter the text of the Bible. The Catholic Bible has the answers!
I am thankful for all the precious Roman Catholic people who truly do have the life of Jesus. I am also thankful for the stand that the Roman Catholic church has taken against the horrible practice of abortion so prevalent in western society today. Many other worthwhile contributions have been made by the Roman Catholic church in education, in medicine, and in the fight against the abuses of the communist system and more. Nevertheless, following Roman Catholic teachings on salvation will not lead to the salvation promised by God. Once we know and understand the Good News message of the Bible for ourselves, there is no need to be racked by insecurity as regards our status with God, if indeed we truly want to please Him. What I write below may seem radical, heretical and dangerous to some. I agree that the stakes are high. In the past people have been burned todeath for holding these views, fulfilling the words of Jesus in John 16:2 " yes, the time is coming that whoever killsyou will think that he offers God service ". Yet it with love and a sincere desire to glorify God that I write as I do. Please take time to evaluate if these things are truly so.
The article which I have written below tackles many of the core issues relating to what I consider to be the fundamental errors of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox systems. In it I address the issues of priesthood, the mass, baptism and to some extent the issue of Holy Tradition, although I will need to write more on this later, God willing.
The Sacramental View of Salvation - Catholic and Orthodox doctrine teaches that only through the administration of sacraments such as baptism, the mass and penance can a person be saved. Is this view Biblical? Is it right? What does it mean for you and me? An article which quickly getsto the heart of the matter.
Is the Roman Catholic Church the One True Church that Jesus founded?
This is a central claim of the Church of Rome. It is based inpart on an interpretation of Matthew 16:18 "upon this rock I will build my Church". Has the Catholic church really been faithful to Jesus Christ's teaching and the life he calls people to? What does the Bible say about the Rock that is the true foundation for our lives?
Please examine your beliefs in the light of the original Christian faith - whichis recorded in the Bible.
Did you know?
- Salvation is not obtained by good works, but by living faith in Christ and His work! "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves ; it is the gift of God, not of works , lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9). The Roman Catholic church teaches men that their salvation depends primarily on themselves, and that it is of works. It puts people under a system of endless rules and obligations. Those under law are not under grace. (Galatians 5:4; Romans 6:14). Unlike the early Christians John wrote to, a Roman Catholic cannot "know" that he "has" eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13).
- There is one God and One mediator between God and men , the Man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). To believe we need priests, saints, Mary or anyone to get to God except Jesus Christ is heresy! It means to disbelieve God's Holy Word and make our own religious system! It is to invite spiritual deception. It takes away from the centrality of Jesus Christ.
- God said that beside him there is no other Savior! "I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no Savior." (Isaiah 43:11) This implies that Mary is not a Savior, in spite of what popes and priests have taught by word and example for centuries! No wonder many muslims think that Christians believe that Mary is part of the Holy Trinity! Millions of Roman Catholics treat her as a Savior and as a goddess! (In fact, the same spirit that led the Hebrew women into the idolatrous worship of the "Queen of Heaven" is responsible for the Mariolatry of today's Roman Catholics. Jeremiah 44:17-19)
- Mary had other children after Jesus according to the Scriptures (yet only Jesus had a virgin birth). "Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?" (Matthew 13:55-56) See also Matthew 12:46-49; Mark 3:31-34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19-21; John 7:5; 1 Corinthians 9:5, Jude 1. The prime example was James, the brother of Jesus, became the leader of the church in Jerusalem! (Acts 15:13; compare Acts 12:2 - a different James)
- The Bible nowhere teaches that Mary was sinless , as it does concerning Jesus. On the contrary, the Bible says that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
- God forbids the bowing down to graven images and pictures in the Ten Commandments! (Exodus 20:4). The Catholic church has tried to change this commandment, but it remains in the Bible for all courageous people to read. This is idolatry! This idolatry has brought spiritual blindness upon multitudes.
- Every true believer is a priest! (1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:5; Revelation 5:10). Please read my teaching on sacramental salvation where this thing is exposed.
- The Mass as taught by the Church of Rome is both idolatory and blasphemy! See the article on sacramental salvation to understand why. To worship something (e.g. a cracker) which is not God is idolatory. To call something which is not God to be God is blasphemy!
- Baptism does not make you a Christian. The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). You need to be a disciple of Jesus before you have Biblical right to call yourself a Christian. Why did Paul say that Christ did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel? (1 Corinthians 1:17). It is because the preaching of the true gospel can make people Christians, when they believe, not baptism.
- Peter was married, and most early church leaders were! (Mark 1:30; 1 Timothy 3:2-4) So why a celibate priesthood (1 Timothy 4:2). This situation combined with the penance doctrine of the need to confess all sins to a priest has led to shocking impurity!
- No church on earth can be rightly called our mother. "But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:26). Rome, on the other hand, was prophesied of by John in the Book of Revelation chapter 17, and is described as "The Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth". "The seven heads are the seven hills upon which the woman sits." (Revelation 17:9). Did you know that the city of Rome sits on seven hills?
- "Father" is a spiritual title forbidden for men. Jesus said, "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in Heaven." (Matthew 23:9). Do Roman Catholics obey Jesus Christ here?
Graphical Messages in Comic Strip form
Last Rites When this Catholic dies, he learns that his church couldn't save him.
Why Is Mary Crying? - Without a doubt, Mary the mother ofJesus
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AN HEART TOUCHING INCIDENT!!!!!
Friends i like to share with you an incident with touched my heart and made me weep bitterly.
Imagine this scene from a recent courtroom trial in South Africa: A frail black woman stands slowly to her feet. She is something over 70 years of age. Facing her from across the room are several white security police officers, one of whom, Mr. Van der Broek, has just been
tried and found implicated in the murders of both the woman’s son and her husband
some years before. It was indeed Mr. Vanwho had come to the woman’s home a
number of years back, taken her son, shot him at pointblank range and then burned
the young man’s body on a fire while he and his officer partied nearby. Several years later, Van der Broek and his cohorts had return to take away her husband as well. For many months she heard nothing of his whereabouts. Then, almost two years after her husband’s disappearance, Van der Broek came back to fetch the woman herself. How vividly she remembers that evening, going to a place beside a river where she was shown her husband, bound and beaten, but still
strong in spirit, lying on a pile of wood. The last words she heard from his lips as the officers poured gasoline over his body and set him aflame were, “Father, forgive them.” And now the woman stands in the courtroom and listens to the confessions offered by Mr. Van der Broek. A member of South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission turns to her and asks,
“So, what do you want? How should justice be done to this man who has so brutally destroyed your family?” “I want three things,” begins the old woman calmly, but confidently. “I want
first to be taken to the place where my husband’s body was burned so that I can gather up the dust and give his remains a decent burial.” She pauses, then continues. “My husband and son were my only family. I want, secondly, therefore, for Mr. Van der Broek to become my son. I would
like for him to come twice a month to the ghetto and spend a day with me so that I can pour out on him whatever love I still have remaining within me.” “And, finally,” she says, “I want a third thing. I would like Mr. Van der Broek to know that I offer him my forgiveness because Jesus Christ died to forgive. This was also the wish of my husband. And so, I would kindly ask someone to come to my side and lead me across the courtroom so that I can take Mr. Van der Broek in
my arms, embrace him and let him know that he is truly forgiven.” As the court assistants come to lead the elderly woman across the room, Mr. Van der Broek, overwhelmed by what
he has just heard, faints. And as he does, those in the courtroom, friends, family, neighbours-- all victims of decades of oppression and injustice-- begin to sing, softly, but assuredly, “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.
“Forgiveness, The Ultimate Healing Medication”
What a wonderful
What a wonderful testimony!
Thank you for sharing it Henry Jose!
Re: The Rock
As far as the Rock....This is the only Rock that matters....
Peter can be a rock, pebble, or boulder, it is irrelevant.
2Sa 22:2
And he said, (THE LORD IS MY ROCK), and my fortress, and my deliverer;
2Sa 22:47
(The LORD) liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of (THE ROCK OF MY SALVATION).
Psa 18:2
(THE LORD IS MY ROCK), and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
Psa 89:26
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, (MY GOD), and (THE ROCK OF MY SALVATION).
And Jesus Christ is the foundation of His church, not Peter.
1Co 3:11
For other (FOUNDATION) can no man lay than that is laid, which is (JESUS CHRIST).
APOLOGIES AND CHALLENGE!!!
First of all I like to apologize to shanta for publicizing this post. I like to warn you the protestant's and pentecost's biggest strength in criticising the roman catholic church is through the virginity of Mary. even the pope was not able to answer the question regarding this topic, he covinced that the brothers and sisters may be the children of Joseph's first wife(which is partially accepted by many outside the church!!!). But i gave scriptiral refernce which no one came forward to question or answer the Words from the Bible, how can they? Accepting their mistake is a big attack on their prestige which they don’t want to give up.
They boast that BIBLE is their only source of path, but defying the very rock on which christ established his church (i.e) on Peter, with an alternate concept that christ was the rock inspite of the fact that the sentence was crystal clear.
MATTHEW:"That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. {16:19} And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
they come forth with an answer that in Greek petros(peter) stands for a small movable stone and Petra which they point it out to Jesus claiming as rock, which is not so.
In Aramaic the native language of Jesus, peter is called by the name Cephas(THE ROCK).
they immediately point out to 1 corinthans:"and that Rock was Christ"(10:4). Which is entirely different when compared with the above context in Matthew.
When peter recognized Jesus as CHRIST THE SON OF LIVING GOD by the power of Holy Spirit he was rewarded by Jesus as in the above text. If this suggestion is denied then the passage would become meaningless. BUT they wanted it to sound it meaningless.
Let them stop criticizing the church, if they feel the church built over cephas(rock) is rotten to the core let them come and reform the church.
I remember a friend posting on this site the explanation for the church built by Christ with Greek references such as petros and Petra, and who for my explanation of the cousins of Jesus with Greek reference has posted as such “if we take Greek reference to understand the scripture the true meaning of it will be altered”. A DOUBLE MINDED person indeed.
Haven’t we read “if one of your gospel is wrong, then you are entirely wronged”, how come they who boast as perfectionist, hide the scriptural reference on which I have thrown light.
Do they remain silent since not able to answer or were they silenced by a blasphemer to ignore this post let them always remember the nature of gospel which can be simply put as:
”there is nothing hidden which has come to light”.
When I spoke with them with little scriptural reference a wave of criticism followed, but when I came out with exact scriptural reference still they boast that which doesn’t suit their conscience cannot be accepted. Indeed very sad.
LET ME CHALLENGE ANYONE TO OFFEND THE CLEAR SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE WHICH I HAVE POSTED UNDER THE THREAD "EUREKA!!!"
To henry Jose from Sunrise Concerning Matthew 16:18
This was from your post: "MATTHEW: "That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. {16:19} And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
I have something for you to think about. Why didn’t Jesus say “That thou art Peter, and upon [you, or your rock] will I build my church,” instead of saying “That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.” It certainly would have made it a lot plainer, don’t you think?
Verse 19 is very obvious. Jesus said, “I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven.” There is no doubt who Jesus means. The word “thee” indicates that He is talking about Peter.
peter
the rock was the the words of peter,thou art the Christ the Son of God,and upon this rock I will build my church,not on peter but on peters statement,Jesus is the Rock..
To Holyroller_11 From Sunrise
How can I put this. I am trying to get henry jose to do some thinking of his own. It's not hard to figure out who verse 19 is referring to, but there is controversy over verse 18. If you take verse 18 in its context, then you know who "this rock" is. I am not saying right now. I want henry to answer my question. However, I appreciate your answer.
henry
I asked you a question that wasn;t answered,when did Mary walk on water,feed 5000,raise the dead or heal the sick.who's blood washed away our sin.was it Mary or Jesus. Mary was a chosen vessel by God to be used for his glory,not Mary;s glory.so I ask again what difference does it make if after the birth of Jesus who she slept with as far as the gospel of Christ. Salvation is by no other name or no other blood,than that of Jesus,period!!!!
amen
Amen to that HR11. We really need to show Henry Compassion. For we all walked contrary to God before we knew the Lord. I just think he is confusing our Hope in Jesus with his hope in a religiion. Yet I will say he does Love to challenge. Oh what a awesome & zealous man of God he would be yet he doesn't seem to things in the spirital just the physical. Jesus took the Keys to Death & Hades not the kingdom of heaven from Satan. Jesus himself is the Key to heaven He is the only way, truth & light. Not catholoicism, Mary, Joseph, Buddah, Muhammed, by no other name can you be saved. Why would he say it if it wasn't true? For He is all truth. Many say it is arrogant. I don't think so for if you are who you say you are than you are honest not arrogant. So I pray for henry to have eyes to see & Ears to hear. That he comes to know the whole truth, & not mans idea of truth. In jesus I pray. Love YSi CJ, Annette
reply to eureka
I find that you may only see the words but you may not see them in Spirit. How do you not see that Jesus was talking About the spirital recognition( by Peter) that Jesus is the messiah! I believe he was giving him wisdom that the kingdom of god was right in front of him & that the spirital keys to unlock this mystry were revealed to peter right there. For jesus had not yet been crucified & he did not yet decend into hell to take those keys from satan nor had he assended into Heaven yet. The knowledge that the Holy Spirit imparted to peter was the key to understanding the identity of Jesus and that that knowledge is ThIs rock or the Chief cornerstone that the builders rejected. I pray that God reveals this to you in Christ Jesus Name, Amen. Ysi CJ Annette
also,
Are you here to help others discover Jesus or to help them find the catholic religion. I really hope that it is the first. Because catholicism didn't die for my sins, Jesus Did. I would put my hope in Jesus not religion. & you may not agree, that is your right, just as it is my right to disagree with you. HoweveR I will pray for you because God is no respecter of persons. I say this in love and urge you to seek Jesus, not religion. In Christ Jesus name, Annette
Re: IMMORTALITY
There are two different dimensions if you will.
One is, the dimension of LIFE
The other is, the dimension of PUNISHMENT
Both of these dimensions are Everlasting.
This does not mean those which die in sin attain eternal life, but Everlasting Punishment, ie, Destruction.
We on the other hand attain eternal life, ie, Immortality.
Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Everlasting - - Eternal
G166
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting.
G165
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity; - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever.
G104
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; - always, ever.
The following verse says we attain everlasting life here and now.
Joh 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, (HATH) everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but (IS PASSED) from death unto life.
The following verse says eternal life is not in the future event.
Joh 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me (HATH) everlasting life.
How does the following fit into the dynamic of 1Cor 15:50-54
Rom 6:3-5
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
What I am saying is, we do attain Eternal Life, through our Baptism "INTO" Christ, we are raised "UNTO" newness of life through Christ's Resurrection, our spirit is regenerated, from that moment on, we are spirit beings, we live in the Spirit.
Gal 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Joh 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing
At the time of our baptism, our flesh was not changed, we came up out of the water a physical being the same as when we went under the water. We identify with Jesus death on the cross, He died for us, but we did not die physically.
Nothing changed physically.
When Paul was saying these things, he was speaking to the Church at Corinth, they seem to have been a very unruly bunch of people.
What then is the context of what Paul was teaching them?
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood (CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD); neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Ye must be Born Again, same as 1Cor 15 is saying.
Joh 3:1-15
1) There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he (CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD).
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he (CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD).
6) That which is born of the (FLESH IS FLESH); and that which is born of the (SPIRIT IS SPIRIT).
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8*) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15) That (WHOSOEVER BELEIVETHIN HIM) should not perish, but (HAVE ETERNAL LIFE).
I therefore believe, the only thing being spoken of that will be changed in Cor 15, will be the physical body of our flesh.
The corruption being spoken of is our mortal body, it cannot inherit incorruption.
Through Baptism, our spirit has already been changed, (regenerated), therefore our mortal body, has to be changed also.
While it is true, as long as we are here in our mortal bodies, we can walk in the kingdom, because we walk in the Spirit, the kingdom is within us, because of the Spirit dwells within us, but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it must be changed.
"Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
Death only affects the physical mortal body of our flesh, not our Spirit.
We have been raised from the dead, through Jesus resurrection, unto newness of life.
But this newness of life, only affects our spirit, until we physically die.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
The physical must be changed, but this change will only take place, at the time of the Resurrection, as per. 1Cor 15 when the flesh, (physical body, mortal, corruption) is clothed in Immortality, a new Spiritual body as Jesus has.
Immortality is not some mystical thing that takes place giving us Eternal Life, we have already attained Eternal Life through Baptism, the Resurrection of Christ, the Immortality we attain at the time of the Resurrection is, the changing of our Mortal bodies.
We then at that time have come full circle to where Adam was in the Garden, gaining back, through Christ everything lost at the fall of Adam.
EUREKA!!!!!
I got a most valuable point regarding the virginity of MARY.
according to you the brothers of Jesus are James, Joses, Simon, and Judas and also some unnamed sisters, here i go!!!!
MARK:15:40 “There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of JAMES THE LESS( leader of the church in Jerusalem) and of JOSES, and SALOME(a sister).
again it goes:
It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary [the mother] of JAMES, and other [women that
were] with them, which told these things unto the apostles LUKE-24:10
information regarding JUDAS his other brother:
LUKE{6:13} And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; {6:14} Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, {6:15} Matthew and Thomas, James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, {6:16} And JUDAS(Jude Thaddeus) [the brother] of JAMES, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.
The General Epistle of JUDE:
{1:1} Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and BROTHER OF JAMES, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called: {1:2} Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
JOHN: {19:25} Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his MOTHER,
and his mother’s SISTER, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. {19:26} When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he
saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! {19:27}Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
SCRIPTURE REVEALS EVERYTHING!!!!!
EUREKA?
With all due respect, the only impression I receive from the Scripture you have posted is that "Mary" was a very common name back in biblical times. Even Mary's sister was named Mary! What does any of this have to do with Mary's virginity?
<p>I honestly do not know
<p>I honestly do not know what point you are trying to make. Please clarify your conclusion, for there is no way to answer amidst the confusion.</p>
my point is
Henry is to show henry Love & Compassion. He is very Zealous for Catholocism, Just as Saul was for Judaism before he became Paul and only by speaking of the gospel of Jesus Christ will his eyes & ears be opened. I hope you understand me know. Love in Christ Jesus, Annette
Dear Annette, I was asking
Dear Annette,
I was asking Henry what his point in Eureka!! is.... Lol, I guess I didn't make my point clear. Thank you for your gentle response to what must have appeared a callous post. I sincerely do not understand the conclusion Henry has come to... he pieces it together nicely in his own mind, but I am not sure what exactly I am to walk away with...
Oh! LOL
Well I guess my ego is way too big. LoL. I thought you meant me. I wonder if Jesus Got a Chuckle from this one!!!!!!!! You didn't bother me & I don't think asking anyone to clarify what they mean. If it helps them seek the Lord harder I think it can only be a good thing. YSi Christ Jesus, Annette
I'm quenched of my thirst
Thanks to everyone who did a great Job for helping me clarifying my doubts.... i just wanted to know the true meaning of matthew 16:8, i hope you would realise the difference between a humble question and a heated challenge, the answer would be more accurate from the latter
. Regarding life after death and immortality which none of us is sure only a humble question had to be put forth. but i didnt get my answers fully from anyone,
1. virginity of Mary.
2. the ROCK.
The first one regarding the virginity of mary i hope i was correct. the most controversial was matthew 13:55, from where we could read the names of Jesus brothers for which an suitable scriptural reference was given by me under the thread eureka, i was waiting for a suggestion after i posted it but no one turned up.
the second one though i got excellent replies i'm still struck up in verse 18.
anyway i heartfully thank Annete, Timothy Luke, Hollyroller, sunrise and lookinforacity who really spent a great deal of time for me.
Dear Henry
You questions are welcome here as well as You. If anyone made you feel unwelcome I will take the blame & ask for your forgiveness. I feel that disscussing Jesus is always a challenge for some & I see no problem in taking it as a challenge. For it creates in me a deeper hunger for the Lord & causes me to seek out his word more dilligently. I wish to thank you for the disscussion. Even if you didn't get all of your answers, you are seeking God and that is a great thing to Do. I will suggest that if you write nextime that you let everyone know that these are humble questions and that you would like to hear what we have to say about them. But if we took you wrong, I appologize. I never intended to offend you. As I stated. I feel you are very zealous. I feel that if you are this zealous for the truth that the truth will be revealed to you Dear Henry. And may the Good lord help you to find your answers. In Christ Jesus' Name Annette
Re; Life after death
As far as the question of death in relation to the Believer is concerned..
Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Rom 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
I can assure you, that at this moment, as I sit here and write these things, I am here in the flesh, but Scripture says something different for my spirit.
Eph 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Therefore I ask the question, If I now sit in Heavenly places in Christ, where then will I be when I am dead?
2Co 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Although people have used this verse to say "to be absent from the body, "IS" to be present with the Lord."
This verse is not saying, to be absent from the body there is an instantaneous presence with the Lord.
Rom 6:9
Knowing that Christ (BEING RAISED) from the (DEAD) (DIETH) no more; (DEATH) hath no more dominion over him.
(BEING RAISED)
G1453
Probably akin to the base of G58 (through the idea of collecting one’s faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), that is, rouse (literally from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death; or figuratively from obscurity, inactivity, ruins, nonexistence): - awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-) rise (again, up), stand, take up.
(DEAD)
G3498
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (LITERALY OR FIGURATIVELY; also as noun): - dead.
(DIETH - DIED)
G599
From G2348; to die off (LITERALY OR FIGURATIVELY): - be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with).
(DEATH)
G2288
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (LITERALY OR FIGURATIVELY): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Rom 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
(LIVETH - ALIVE)
G2198
A primary verb; to live (LITERALY OR FIGURATIVELY): - life (-time), (a-) live (-ly), quick.
Rom 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Rom 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
For in that Christ has died in the flesh, he died unto the law of sin and death once:
Rom 8:2,3
2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3) God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:9
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Being risen in Christ, death hath no more dominion over "US."
Thanks Jim, Let me add,Heb
Thanks Jim, Let me add,
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
All die once. It is just that death does not hold the final say for them any longer. Death in that regard does not have dominion over me, because I do not fear it. I know my redeemer lives. I know that I will be resurrected, in a moment, the twinkling of an eye. So shall I ever be with the Lord, as he returns to rule all nations with a rod of iron, with the saints with him.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
I believe immortality will be imparted at the time of resurrection, as per 1 Cor. 15.
PLEASE CLEAR MY DOUBT
Friend I’m very much confused regarding AFTER DEATH WHAT? Is there an immediate confinement of heaven and hell? Not many but everyone seem to answer the same “if you are righteous u’ll be rewarded to heaven if not you’ll be thrown to hell”, BUT that seems to contradict the purpose of judgment day. If there is an immediate judgment then only will the living be judged on the day of judgment? We read that “on that day both the living and the dead will be judged”, PAUL clearly explains it in a nut shell “on that day we the living will ascend to the clouds along with the dead and the righteous judge will judge us according to our deeds”. So is there an immediate heaven and hell? PLEASE help me in clarifying it.
Intermediate heaven and hell
I believe that man is a spirit which lives in a body. The spirit belongs to the dimension in which heaven and hell exist. So when the body perishes, the spirit goes on in its existence, until the day when the person will be resurrected - either to face the judgement and condemnation of God, or to enjoy the new heaven and new earth.
If you use the Book of Ecclesiastes to form your doctrine on these matters you will end up deceived, because the spirit world is outside the scope of the Book of Ecclesiastes. Yet the spirit world is real. Demons exist, angels exist and human spirits exist.
There is a time after death which precedes the general resurrection of the dead. Those who have served idols will be taken in spirit to hell to be tormented until the Day of Judgment.
Those who are in Christ "gain" through death. (Philippians 1:21). To "die is gain". It is gain because Jesus promised "never to leave us nor forsake us" and "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
I don't use ecc
you brought that in ,not me,The problem is the rapture,without a pretrib, tim luke and whoevers,idea of the spirit and soul going strait to heaven or hell, check our discussion.ecc. never crossed my mind
clear it up
thre rich man died and went to hell, when we die we away in hell or heaven,just as we we do a crime in this world,we go to jail awaiting our trial,so is it in the spiritual world,at the judgement we are to stand before our judge for the final sentence! hell is in the heart of the earth burning at est by man 96000 degrees.vents are all over the world.(this is a real place)for those who will argue, how is it that our planet is on fire yet never destroyed, anyway when time passes and death,hell and the grave are cast in the lake of fire(sun) then peace on earth is finally here.amen
clear it up more
In the old days( before hospice care or murder how ever you see it,)people would be at bed sides with their dieing relatives,some just before they passed,would claim to see light,others would say their feet was burning,,,My step Dad died 4 years ago,been a sinner as his life,in the last year of his life,he found Christ,as he died,He said with his last breath I:m slipping,I;m slipping,I;M GOING HOME. His spirit went back to God,his body will remain in the grave until the rapture.with his new body will eat with many and maybe me,if I don't fail,the marrage supper of the LAMB .
Thanks to Tim and Sunrise
You have answered overwhelmingly well by quoting answers from the bible. But I have got my own answers:
THE only knowledge we have about the condition of the that God reveals in His word, the HolyBible. No one has come back from the grave to tell us his impressions of the after-death state. Lazarus was raised from the dead by our Lord, but nothing is recorded regarding a visit to heaven or any other place during the four days he was dead.
We have a few examples of persons who were dead and were raised to life again. Moses died and was buried, but the Lord raised him and took him to heaven. Deuteronomy 34:5,6, Jude 9; Matthew 7:1-3. Elijah was translated without seeing death (2Kings 2:10) and so was Enoch (Genesis 5:24). There was also a multitude that rose from the dead when Jesus came back to life. “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the Holy City, and appeared unto many.” Matthew 27:52,53. They went to heaven when Jesus ascended. Ephesians 4:8.
It was such an unusual occurrence for those persons to go to heaven that Holy Writ recorded it.
However, this does not prove that all go to heaven when they die or are raised from the dead before the general resurrection.
Jesus makes it plain that people do not go to heaven immediately when they die, but go there after the resurrection. Jesus said: “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself. That where I am, there you may be also.” John 14:2,3. Jesus has not come yet, so the righteous are not yet in heaven. They will go there when Jesus comes to take them.
We know that the Lord has not yet come, for “every eye shall see Him” when He comes. Revelation 1:7. This has not yet taken place. All the dead will rest in their graves until that day. If those who have died are now rejoicing in heaven, how could Jesus say that He will receive them when He comes?
When Jesus comes back to this earth He will come visibly. If “every eye shall see him,” He surely will be seen. “And when He [Jesus] had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11. When Jesus comes He comes visibly, and He will receive the righteous.
Daniel rests in the grave “till the end be;” and that time has obviously not come. Daniel 12:13. So he is not in heaven.
If the righteous do not go to heaven at death, but after they are raised from the dead, where do the wicked go when they die? “The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.” 2 Peter 2: 9. The wicked are “reserved unto judgment.” Verse 4. That is, they will be judged first, then they will be punished. You would not punish first, and then judge; and neither would God. You do not send a man to jail for ten years and then take him out to see what sentence he deserves. Some men would like to send the wicked to hell-fire first and then judge them, or send them to heaven and then judge them to see whether they really should be in heaven or hell.
The Bible states clearly that the wicked are reserved “unto the day of judgment to be punished.” I
the unjust are reserved to be judged, first, it is evident that they are not in hell before the judgment takes place.
The judgment takes place after we die. Hebrews 9:27. The Lord has appointed a day when He will judge the world. Acts 17:30, 2 Corinthians 5: 10; Ecclesiastes 12:14. The judgment was still future in the time of Christ. Matthew 12:4 1; 11:22. It was still future in the time of Paul. Acts 24:25; Romans 2:16. If the judgment was yet future at that time, then all the people that had died before were not yet judged. How then could they be in hell or heaven? Even the evil angels are reserved to be judged before their final punishment. 2 Peter 2:4.
The world itself is reserved to be burned up. 2 Peter 3:7. If the world is reserved to be burned, it
has not yet burned. If the wicked are reserved to be judged, they are not in hell-fire until they are judged.
The evil angels are reserved to be judged, too, so they are not in hell-fire now. No one is in hell-fire now,until after the judgment, and then the wicked will get their punishment. This punishment comes after theresurrection. Revelation 20:4-9. The righteous go to heaven after the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17.
The judgment is not completed until the verdict of God is pronounced: “He that is unjust, let him
be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still. And he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11.
Jesus speaks about the separation of the wicked from the righteous “as a shepherd divides his
sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom.... Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:32-41.
When God has given the verdict, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy,
let him be filthy still,” there is no case where this decision is revoked. His judgment is final. God cannot say that a person is guilty and not guilty at the same time. No one is half-saved or half-condemned. If this could be so, then God would not be certain of His decisions. He would have to alter cases. This would make God an unreliable judge. “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” Romans 3:4
God knows whether a man is guilty or not guilty. He knows whether a person has been a great
sinner or whether he barely missed heaven, and He judges accordingly. He gives everyone according to his works. He does not punish all sinners to the same degree.
boy did you miss this one
sin is sin,and there is no little sin or big sin,I know your WRONG
Accepted Hollyroller
yes i accept my mistake, SIN big or small unless repented rewards us with DEATH both temporarily(can't overcome) and eternally.
To henry jose Concerning Life After Death
This answers the question about what happens to a person when he or she dies.
First, I have to establish what is temporary and what is eternal. This verse will tell us that.
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:18
This verse tells us that anything we can see with our eyes is temporary. Since you can see the things that are on the earth, those things are temporary. [1 Peter 3:10] When you look at yourself in the mirror, the body you see is temporary. The things you do not see are eternal. Therefore, God, the angels, heaven, principalities and powers, and any other heavenly beings are all eternal.
Second, I have to establish the way God made us. We will look at 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This verse tells us that we have a body, soul, and spirit. The body as I said before is temporary. It is mortal. It does not last. It is subject to death. Since we cannot see our soul and spirit with the natural eye, it is eternal. What is eternal lasts forever. Your soul and spirit is the real you.
How is a person saved? John 3:16 tell us. This is Jesus speaking.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
To believe in Jesus is to be saved and also to obtain eternal life.
How is a person lost? John 3:18 tells us.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
To not believe in Jesus is to be lost and under condemnation.
Now that we know the above information, what happens when a person dies?
When a saved person or a lost person dies, immediately upon death the soul and spirit of that person goes to whatever eternal destination that person has chosen. The saved will go to heaven. The lost person will go to hell. This destination is sealed. It cannot be changed after death. Later at the judgment there will be a second death for the lost. Whereas the first death is physical, the second death will be spiritual. The body of a person is usually buried and remains on earth, until the resurrection. I am not going to get into the resurrection at this point.
"When a saved person or a
"When a saved person or a lost person dies, immediately upon death the soul and spirit of that person goes to whatever eternal destination that person has chosen. The saved will go to heaven. The lost person will go to hell. "
What is the scriptural verification of this assertion?
To Timothy Luke from Sunrise
Where would the soul and spirit go?
The Bible repeats itself that
The Bible repeats itself that the soul that sins it will die. The doctrine of immortal soul is not Biblical as Paul writes also in his doxology that God 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light
Also we read in future text: 1Co 15:51-54 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Notice the context of sleeping. "We shall not all sleep, but we SHALL (future tense) all be changed. Changed from what? mortal to immortal. We ARE NOT therefore, immortal souls. The soul is our conscious dimension... we read in Psalms that: Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
What happens to the spirit? Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,
That is what the Bible says... The spirit (apart from consciousness) goes upward. The soul remains with the remains... this latter would be as much an assumption on my part as to say otherwise would be on yours. The location is not specified, in looking at these verses again. HOWEVER, the condition of not being conscious, is. regardless of where the soul is.
Here is a verse in Revelation: Rev 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Do our souls get stored under God's throne? it appears so. Are they actually alive? I cannot imagine all our souls being conscious in such a tight area of space. Remember God said to Cain, "your brother's blood cries to me." in Genesis. I think the souls are dormant, awaiting the resurrection when immortality will be imparted... review 1 Cor 15.
For Timothy Luke from Sunrise on Immortality
You are right. God alone is immortal. He is the essence of immortality. God has the preeminence as far as immortality goes. He is the only possessor of immortality. That’s one of His attributes. That’s what I get out of 1 Timothy 6:16.
We can’t make ourselves immortal, but He can. We have to have immortality to be able to live in heaven with Him. The same person that made that statement in 1 Timothy 6:16 also made the statement in 2 Corinthians 4: 18: While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal. That word “eternal” encompasses the word immortality. Can you see your soul and spirit? If not, then it has to be eternal.
This is how it is: Our present bodies are mortal, but our soul and our spirit are immortal. God gave immortality to the soul and spirit. When God breathed into man the breath of life, man became a living soul. God’s breath is immortal. The soul is the heart of man. The soul and the spirit are different, but inseparable. A person cannot have one without the other. When the body dies the soul and spirit are released from the body.
God is not going to allow our soul and spirit to remain with a dead, decaying body in a dark whole in the ground. I can’t see God doing that. I hope I have clarified my position for you.
our soul is immortal BUT....
Immortality is revealed through the gospel. The gospel teaches us how we may receive it. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16. This is the way we get immortality, and the only way.
We do not possess it by nature. Immortality is conditional.
Eternal death is abolished in all who accept Jesus as their personal Savior. They will not perish,
but have everlasting life, immortality. But those who “are contentious, and do not obey the truth,” cannot
expect to receive this immortality. Romans 2:7,8. Those who do not obey the gospel, the word of God, will
be destroyed. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
When will the children of God receive immortality? Will they receive it when they die, or at the resurrection?
resurrection? We find the answer in the fourth and fifth texts where the word “immortality” is found.
“Behold, I show you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must
put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1
Corinthians 15:51-54.
The putting on of immortality will be at the resurrection, and not when we die. Immortality is put
on at the 1ast trump,” and then the “mortal” will put on “immortality.” We are “mortal” until we put on
“immortality,” which is at the resurrection. Then we will be “changed” from the “mortal” to “immortality”
and from the “Corruptible” to “incorruption.” If we put on “immortality” at the resurrection, we do not put
it on while we live or while we are dead, but after we are raised from the dead. Then we put on immortality
and not until then.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they anymore a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.”
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6.
“Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. “For what is a
man profited, if he 'shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Matthew 16:26.
“But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of
the soul.” Hebrews 10:39.
“Lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” James 1:21
If the soul dies, if it goes to the grave, if it is brought up out of the grave, and if it can be destroyed, then it is not immortal. “The soul that sins, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4,20. There is no opportunity left to twist the meaning of this text. The soul that sins will die. And how many souls have sinned? All have sinned, and all are subject to death. Romans 3:23. But there is hope for lost souls. John 3:16
We receive eternal life through His death. It is a gift. Eternal life is a gift of God. Romans 6:23.
If everlasting life, or immortality, is a gift of God and is given to the righteous, then the wicked do not have
immortality.
Henry Jose
Henry Jose, I am glad you went through 1 Corinthians 15 more thoroughly than I did. It is the most detailed account of immortality and it should be the definitive word on it. The traditions of man have muddied the waters of discourse on it, but it clearly states when that immortality will be given, and it is indeed, not at death, but at the last trump. This is the key which all the other prophecies revolve regarding resurrection and life.
For henry jose From Sunrise Concerning Ezekiel 18
If a person is going to use Ezekiel 18:4 as a reference, a person needs to also include verse 3 with it. Otherwise, he or she will not get the full meaning of what is being said. Here is Ezekiel 18:3-4:
(3) [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have [occasion] any more to use this proverb in Israel.
What “proverb” is the Lord GOD talking about? The proverb mentioned in verse 4. Let’s look at verse 4.
(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Here is the proverb in verse 4: “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:”
What does this mean? I will give you an illustration. Let’s say that a man’s son goes out and kills and robs another man’s son. The avenger of blood, mostly the dead man’s father and some others, will not only hunt down the man that killed his son, but he will kill the father of that son also. It’s possible that they could kill the whole family.
In verse 3, God tells the Israelites that they cannot use that proverb anymore. Here is what He tells them to do: “the soul that sinneth, it shall die”. In other words, the person who committed the crime is the only one who should pay for that crime. So, this is talking about physical death.
Sunrise, you will find the
Sunrise, you will find the proverb being referred to in verse 3 is not verse 4, but rather in verse 2.
Eze 18:1 The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. (referring to the aforementioned proverb.)Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Verse 4 is God's answer, or resolution of the inequity of the proverb. God's response to the proverb is that He will not judge pass on the judgment of the fathers to the sons and vice versa.
Sunrise to Timothy Luke, Correction Made
Thank you. I stand corrected on that. I just didn’t investigate back far enough. From what I can get from the commentaries I have read, the children were blaming their forefathers for their troubles. They believed they were being punished for their sins.
Here is a similar passage to Ezekiel 18:2-4. It’s found in Jeremiah 31:29-30
(29) In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
(30) But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
Notice that Jeremiah used the word “one” and the word “man’, instead of the word “soul.”
Here are the bases for what I said earlier in the illustration I gave henry jose. I knew I had read it in the Bible somewhere. I final found it. It’s in 2 Chronicles 25:3-4:
(3) Now it came to pass, when the kingdom was established to him [speaking of Amaziah], that he slew his servants that had killed the king his father.
(4) But he slew not their children, but [did] as [it is] written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.
I believe all of this is talking about physical death, since Jeremiah used the words “one” and “man.” The soul cannot be seen by the human eye. What is unseen is eternal as I stated earlier, which I backed up with Scripture. Also, the word soul can mean a “person”, or “individual”. This is evidenced by the following web page: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5315&t=KJV
On the soul and spirit
Respectfully, I thought
Respectfully, I thought Ecclesiastes point is that all is vanity. Money was used profusely in the grand experiment of life. Can you give me chapter and verse that says, 'money is the answer for everything,;? Solomon is walking us through his grand experiment and the thought processes of it, but the end of the book clearly states his conclusion - there is but one thing that is not vanity, "fear God and do his will, this is the whole of man."
As you look at my post, I too was walking through a thought process and in the end, the reference to Ecclesiastes is not pivotal to the point I was making... just for the record. :-)
I'll leave off this topic, as we all need to be rooted in our convictions and make allowance for other's to have different ones in the integrity of their relationship with God. In the end, we all will know, but for now, we see through a glass darkly.
THE BIBLE
this is the second time you have said part of the bible is faulty,there is a fault here but not in the bible.people can't have it both ways its either God's holy word or its not.If people don't believe God wrote it by the HolyGhost, they need to find something else to play with!!!
Ecclesiastses
this book is the flesh version of man,plus either all of the bible is right or none of it.God is big enough to have his book right or we are all in trouble. plus we are not talking about ecc.
this after the rapture
If you don't accept the rapture in rev 4;1 then this would work for you,but thats the only way. the souls under the alter are waiting for the phsical return on the mt of olives,the rapture reunits the souls in heaven (dead)with the bodies in the grave and all the living and the dead meet the Lord in the air.the dead in the tribulation are waiting (body)til the return on mt olive.if no rapture then why meet the Lord in the air,just to land on the mt of olives, immediately after.
henry jose, Correction on Concerning life after death
Disregard 1 Peter 3:10. I actually meant to put Revelation 21:1 in that spot, when I talked about earth being temporary.
sunrise
your right,Its great to be on the same page with you again sister.hr
To henry jose from Sunrise
I checked out your profile and saw you were from India. I thought "wow!" this is just the neatest thing. I hope you understand what I am saying. You seem to be a pretty intelligent person. You handle the English language very well. I am from the USA. I reside in the sourthern portion for the USA. I do not have time this morning to think about your comments, but I will get back to you, so stay tuned. In other words, keep coming to this website. I will be going to church, so see you later.
Henry Jose, let me confess
Henry Jose, let me confess that I have a lot of respect for you, as you search out the scriptures. We do not agree on some things, but let us agree to love one another... Ha ha! The bait has been set! The Biblical answer to your question is one that most Christians do not know.
After death, the Bible says we are in the grave.,.. It says that no man has ascended into heaven, and that David was still in his grave even after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
The Bible says those who precede us in death are dead and in their graves and will arise at the Lord's coming, preceding those who are yet alive.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Bible says, "it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment." in Hebrew 9:27.
The Bible says, in that day of resurrection, the angels will gather up the righteous to be with Jesus and the unrighteous to be cast into the Lake of Fire, "this is the second death."
Mat 13:47-50 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Those are all Biblical answers, but (thanks in large part to the Catholic heritage of even the protestant churches) you will find much debate on this. We are all held responsible to seek out the Word of God and to hold fast to it rather than the doctrines of men. So, I encourage all to look at what the Bible says, and not overthink it into manmade doctrines.
Despite Paul's statement in 1Th 4:16-17: " we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first", we find people who are derisively called 'soul sleepers' for taking him at his word.
I do not believe the Bible teaches "an immediate" heaven and hell, however the result is the same. When one dies, there thoughts perish, according to scripture. Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. With no conscious thought we have no passage of time.
Now, there are numerous testimonies of afterlife experience. I think if it is instant, that everyone who has died and been resuscitated would have a story that 1 - was identical, and 2 - had them either in heaven, or hell. Instead we find numerous variances and everyone so sure of themselves. The Bible calls that confusion.
Your question reminds me of when Paul was in the midst of the Sadducees and the Pharisees and shouted, "for the hope of the resurrection I am called into question!" it was used to confuse and divide the multitude. Let others give their opinions, and let them give answer for them from the integrity of their hearts, I do not judge any man in their belief in this....
For Timothy Luke From Sunrise
I want to address this paragraph below from your post dated 12/9.
“After death, the Bible says we are in the grave.,.. It says that no man has ascended into heaven, and that David was still in his grave even after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.”
This verse that you quoted above is preceded by a passage in which King David is speaking. Here is the passage:
Acts 2:25-28
(25) For David speaketh concerning him [meaning Jesus], I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
(26) Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
(27) Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(28) Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
This Scripture seems to be talking about David because of the use of “my” and “me”. However, verse 27 would not fit David. The reason is because David’s body did suffer decay, or corruption. He would not have been in hell, but Paradise, a special holding place for the believing saints of God. That’s why Peter said what he did in verse 29. I refer to it again.
Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29
If you will notice the last phrase “his sepulcher is with us unto this day”. The sepulcher is just proof that David died and stayed dead. The person mentioned in verse 27 did not stay dead, because this person did not see corruption. This verse doesn’t actually say that David is still in the sepulcher. He could have been taken to heaven when the Lord went, but his sepulcher would still be here as evidence that he died and was buried. It was said to let the people know that verse 27 was not about David, but Jesus. (I don’t know if I am making myself clear or not. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.)
Here are some verses that verify that fact that many bodies arose and were taken with Jesus. David could very well have been one of those people.
Matthew 27:50-53
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].
Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
There is a book out by Colton Burpo called Heaven Is For Real For Kids. When he went to heaven for a few minutes, King David was one of the people he saw. I thought you might be interested in that.