Touch not my anointed?

http://www. letusreason .org/ Pent47.htm

(no free links to sites I don’t like – MF)

I challenge all who say this phrase to read this whole article through prayerfully and with an open mind and heart.

Loyalty is a good thing if it is for the right purpose and for truth. One certainly does not want to be loyal and find they have pledged their allegiance to something that is false.

“He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD” (Proverbs 17:150

But for one to find out what is true or false they must look into matter and hear both sides before they make a final judgment. “The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge, and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge” (Proverbs 18:15).

In a time of catchy phrases and clichés’, Christians can be no different. What does the Bible mean when it says not to touch God’s anointed? It’s not my opinion or yours that matters; but what God’s Word have to say about this that really counts? I certainly wish the people that repeat this phrase would read it in its context, ‘the Lord’s anointed’, is a reference to the kings of the nation of Israel (1Sam. 12:3,5; 24:6,10; 26:9,11, 16,23; 2 Sam. 1:14,16; 19:21; Psalm 20:6; Lam. 4:20). The mention of prophets, is a reference to the patriarchs (Psalm 105:8-15; 1Chron. 16:15-22). It is used exclusively in the Old Testament.
Ps 105:11-15 Saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan as the allotment of your inheritance,” When they were few in number, indeed very few, and strangers in it. When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people, “He permitted no one to do them wrong; yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes, Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones, and do My prophets no harm.” Notice in this Scripture that God protected His anointed (who was Israel) and His prophets from the enemies of Israel to bring physical harm.

The first thing one should notice is that the word touch actually means physical harm. What it does not mean is saying something about another person publicly that is true. How do we know this? Because that’s exactly what David did about Saul. It was David who said he would not harm God’s anointed, who was King Saul at the time but He spoke out publicly about him.

Not only David, but Samuel “touched God’s anointed,” as he spoke out against the kings disobedience. God told Saul to “Smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not…” (1 Sam. 15:3). But instead, he spoke a half truth and “spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord…” (v.15). Samuel said it was rebellion like witchcraft and idolatry (v.24). Because he did not obey the Word of the Lord he would be removed being king. Saul admitted he feared the people and obeyed their voice. What a crucial thing to learn of Saul who was God’s anointed.

In1 Sam.16:13-16 we find David who was shepherd boy was anointed before God took away Saul’s position. David refused to touch Saul physically but it didn’t stop him from telling everyone the truth about him publicly.

David not raising his hand to touch (harm physically) God’s anointed is used in 1 Sam.26:9,11,23. Look at 1 Sam.26:11: tells us that David would not stretch his hand out to touch him (harm him); instead he sneaked up and took Saul’s spear and water jug. In verse 15 David rebukes Abner for not guarding Saul and says he deserved to die. Saul hears the commotion and comes out, and David rebukes Saul before all his troops, asking why he is pursuing David’s life since he is innocent — that the king has come out to seek a flea. Saul then repented for his rash behavior and called himself a fool. David returned Saul’s possessions and said, “For the Lord delivered you into my hand but I would not stretch out my hand against the Lord’s anointed.” Notice what this means, not to bring physical harm.

1 Samuel 24:10 “Look, this day your eyes have seen that the LORD delivered you today into my hand in the cave, and someone urged me to kill you. But my eye spared you, and I said, ‘I will not stretch out my hand against my lord, for he is the Lord’s anointed.” “And David said to Abishai, “Do not destroy him; for who can stretch out his hand against the Lord’s anointed, and be guiltless?”(1 Sam. 26:9)

Saul was anointed as King over Israel he had a position of rulership that was soon to be over. Knowing he was next in line David refused to physically touch the king as God’s anointed and remove him from his position prematurely. It was God, not David who would remove Saul from his position (26:8-10).

We should notice an important part in this story, it was Saul who was pursuing David, hunting him down and trying to kill him. The Bible story has Saul whose position was threatened, pursuing to kill David who was innocent. Isn’t this what we see today? Those who are in a greater position of leadership going after people who are anointed that are challenging them in what they are saying and doing as wrong. From their position they have trained people to listen to them and willing to silence their challengers. They do this by going after them with Bible threats such as “don’t touch God’s anointed” or you are committing the “blasphemy the Holy Spirit” when you speak against another “man of God.” Ignoring the fact that blasphemy meant one is saying that Jesus’ miracles were done by an unclean spirit, not about questioning another mans alleged miracles. Those of the flesh are pursuing those who are of the Spirit, just as Saul did to David. Those who are following the Spirit of the Lord go to His Word to keep themselves in the truth no matter what the opposition may say.

It’s interesting that in Rev. 6:9 John writes “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.” They were killed because they held to the Word against the opposition and so they became martyrs. Those who apostatize from the Word always hate those who keep it.

We find the story of Saul ends with David kept from the Battle that Saul and Jonathan lost their lives in, instead he fought the Amalakites. An Amalakite messenger came back with torn clothes and dust on his head showing he was in mourning, David inquired of him and he told David he killed Saul. “So David said to him, “How was it you were not afraid to put forth your hand to destroy the LORD’s anointed?” Then David called one of the young men and said, “Go near, and execute him!” And he struck him so that he died. So David said to him, “Your blood is on your own head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, ‘I have killed the LORD’s anointed.’”(2 Sam 1:13-16) Again it is clear, to touch the anointed means to bring physical harm, most often death. But if you spiritualize it, it can mean anything you want. 2 Sam 1:17-19 David took up this lament concerning Saul and his son Jonathan, and ordered that the men of Judah be taught this lament of the bow (it is written in the Book of Jashar): “Your glory, O Israel, lies slain on your heights. How the mighty have fallen!” Each time is about those who were killed. David did not relish the fact that God’s anointed was apostate and met his end, he wept.

Since most of these so called anointed teachers that come under their follower’s protection teach the Word out of context, its not surprising that they would quote a verse of Scripture removed from its correct meaning for their own self- protection. Those who shout don’t touch God’s anointed think they are doing God’s work, but they rarely ever look at the facts presented. They listen to their teachers and do not want to hear the other side of the story. They cut themselves off from hearing the truth. And some, even when they are shown false teachings and prophecies do not care, but look to some personality who captured their loyalty. They become enemies of all reason, their own worst enemy. They do not realize they have been trained well, and like Pavlov’s dogs, react the same way each time. It’s time to break free!

What are we supposed to do?

Its easy not to confront falsehood today, but it has become easy to confront those who point it out. How many people tell others not to touch the so-called anointed ever check out the claims from someone who has real concerns, and is trying to get them to read about it? I can tell you from experience, very few. Why is this? Because for the most part they can’t read the material, or should I be more specific and say, they are not allowed to. Again I ask why?

It was an apostle named Paul who called the Berean’s more noble than the others. For what reason? They looked to the Scripture to see if what Paul was teaching was accurate. Today those who protect their favorite teachers say don’t touch God’s anointed for doing this. Paul never said, “Touch not God’s anointed” or “do my prophets no harm”; you will never find an apostle teach this, nor is this found ONCE in the whole New Testament. I ask again why not? Paul was questioned, why didn’t he say this? The apostle Paul called those who checked out what he said as noble, meaning they were a better stock than the others. How noble are you? Do you go wherever the tide goes? Are you willing to take a stand for the truth of the Word of God despite what people say, or will you follow the rest of the sheep off the cliff.

To tell people not to search the Scriptures and expose false teaching as David exposed King Saul is to be touching God’s anointed. You are stopping people who have God’s anointed word from using it correctly! Even David later on in his ministry as King accepted rebuke and correction from Nathan the prophet. He did not say, “don’t touch God’s anointed” to protect himself, and neither should those who follow their leaders do the same.

Who are the anointed?

John 17:17 “Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.” Unless someone is speaking the word correctly they are not teaching the truth and it doesn’t matter if they call themselves anointed, or how big or successful a ministry they have, they are WRONG.

What do the anointed man and women of God act like? Do they stop you from going to check their teachings or anyone else’s by the Word? Of course not, Titus 1:9 “holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.”

No apostle ever said they were anointed, they did not speak in this manner; “don’t touch me I’m God’s anointed.” If someone is truly anointed, they would want to encourage the people to discern what is true and what is not. They would encourage people to pursue truth no matter where it would lead. They would love the sheep enough to protect them from falsehood and want to see them grow. They would allow the sheep to learn and think for themselves. The anointing, who is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth and someone who has the Spirit of Truth will never run from seeing error but will confront it when necessary. He will give someone the truth from the Word, subsequently leading us away from error.

We also need to ask the question who is anointed? The Bible tells us the whole body of Christ is, not just some certain people in the body. 2 Cor. 1:20-22 “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee”

Let me ask those who use the phrase “touch not God’s anointed”, do you believe that only a certain teacher is anointed or can you admit that the whole body is anointed? If so, stop using this Scripture from the Old Testament as if there are only certain people anointed, like prophets or kings. Are there only a certain few leaders who are the anointed of God? Use it correctly.

The New Testament view identifies the anointed as all those who have received Jesus into their hearts and baptized into the body (1 Corinthians 12:13). It is not a certain church or group of people who are supposed leaders over the Church like the kings or prophets in the Old Testament; the whole body of Christ is anointed. When someone insists for people not to say anything when they see something wrong, it is THEY that are coming against the anointed. For everyone shares the same anointing. Before one gives the standard cliché to protect a favorite teacher with “don’t touch my anointed” to someone who is searching what the Scripture actually says, you should think this through. It just may be that it is you who are touching the anointed Jesus, the author of truth, His Word.

The New Testament teaching is that all Christians have the same anointing, the same Holy Spirit. I Jn. 2:27 “But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” How does he teach? By the Word of God, by this we know what is true and false. Prior to this John wrote “But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth” (I Jn. 2:20-21). So if someone speaks something false about Christ (which is what John is concentrating on) or His word they are not speaking by the Spirit and not presenting truth. This is made simple enough for everyone to understand. John says they already know the truth; this was by being born again, by His teaching and the New Testament being circulated throughout the whole church.

We need to ask are they teaching the Bible from the Bible or are they teaching the Bible by another outside interpretation leading you into an experience, or possibly a spirit they think is the Holy Spirit? Doctrine keeps us in communion with Jesus. If they tell you to not bother with doctrine and all you need is love or an experience, run from this because it is a lie. The Bible states “Whosoever transgresses and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, HATH NOT GOD. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son” (2 John 1:9) “That you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3). Where is the doctrine found? In the Scriptures of course.

Ps. 105:14-15 “He permitted no one to do them wrong; yes, He rebuked kings for their sakes, Saying, “Do not touch My anointed ones, and do My prophets no harm.” He permitted no one to do them wrong. Who is he? God. The whole people of Israel were appointed to be a kingdom of priests and kings unto God; they were set apart to his service, it was God who protected them from physical harm. We know this is the context because v.13 states they went from nation to another, from kingdom to another people.” Prophets and the kings of Israel did not care too much about what others said about them, but they did care about what the enemies said of God. In the same sense, those who are saying this phrase today: are you protecting God’s word or a person?

It is God who protects His anointed, “Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven with the saving strength of His right hand. Some trust in chariots, and some in horses; but we will remember the name of the LORD our God” (Psalm 20:6-7). “The LORD is their strength, and He is the saving refuge of His anointed” (Psalm 28:8). If you are anointed you don’t have to make threats, “You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You” (Isa. 26:3). Could these anointed men who threaten others be reacting in the flesh and not in His Spirit? Apparently so!

First: we are not to judge a man and his eternal destiny which is left up to God, but if we see their teachings as destructive, the Bible tells us to judge, it is a command. So if you are telling people not to judge by repeating the Scripture “touch not my anointed” you are telling them to be disobedient to God’s command. That’s the clear and simple answer to this matter. So it has absolutely nothing to do with this cliché touch not my anointed. To hold to this shows ones immaturity in the Word.

Looking at the purpose of touch not God’s anointed, excludes the concept about judging. Most people who say don’t judge will go ahead and take apart everything someone presents as they explain that we are told to judge according to the Bible. For them to say don’t judge is a judgment in itself. But they cannot see the inconsistency in what they are actually doing.

It is the word of God that we use to Judge someone’s teaching and that is not My personal judgment, but God’s, so by obeying this we are doing EXACTLY what Jesus said, to JUDGE righteously. John 7:24 Jesus said: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment”, so we see Jesus did tell us to judge. Also if one examines Mt.7:1-5 in context they find that Jesus says if you have removed the same stumbling block from your eye and can clearly then go ahead and help your brother. 2nd it appears many have listened to men more than God, for the Bible scriptures that they are quoting need to read it in context. It is the self appointed leaders have trained people to think this way and by calling themselves anointed, they have made their followers go after people who say anything about them for their protection. The problem is evident; they can only quote a few certain verses that tell people not say anything about anyone.

Peter, Paul and John did a lot of judging the Biblical way. Every second epistle written is a judgment on false teaching explaining the truth by refuting the error. In 2 Timothy 2:17 he warns of the heresies of two men by name. Later in the same epistle (4:10), Paul judges by warning them about a man named Demas. Paul did a lot of judging and evaluating when it came to false teachers. Remember this is inspired by the Holy Spirit; therefore we have a mandate to judge false doctrine. In the epistle to the Hebrews 5:14 tells us that mature believers, those who are of “full age,” are those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern (judge) both good and evil.” It takes time to learn and grow in discernment; it is those who are babes, immature hold the position that we can’t judge. Think about it.

We are not to sit idly by when we see personal spiritual revelations change God’s Word. If men and women cannot hold to the core doctrines and instead make up new revelations or interpret the Scripture from their dreams, visions, visitations from angels or saints we are to point out this is unbiblical teaching. This is what the Bible says, “holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict” (Titus 1:9). It’s not opinion, its not chasing down a certain person because of any dislike, its a Bible doctrine that we are to practice. Those who see the error are to remove themselves from those who teach it. “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them” (Rom 16:17). If you say you love the Lord lets see it by obeying Him on this matter.

God has given us objective truth to live by. He has not made the truth so vague and open ended that it becomes a matter of anyone’s interpretation, the bible is not an open-ended book. He has given us clear-cut instructions that are valid and applicable today. God gave us an objective means to know and walk with Him, by living out His written Word. The sheep hear the voice of the Shepherd found in the Word, not in new words that men claim God gave them. The sheep will be drawn to the Word if they have any questions. When someone says they are “anointed” or “led by the Spirit” but consistently teach contrary to the Word in its accurate context, you can be assured that they’re not being led by His Spirit delivering truth.

This is especially important on the core doctrines. This of course does mean we must be able to teach perfectly every time. What I’m trying to convey is that it takes time to study, labor and gain spiritual understanding of the Word correctly, that is our goal. When someone distorts and butchers the word, changing or discarding its meaning, then we can safely assume they have not spent time in the word, they do not care, or should not be teaching . When it gets bad enough, harmful enough, its time to speak up to protect the babes, the immature and the naïve from eating poison food. The only alternative is to address the public of already circulated false teaching that is undermining foundational tenets of our faith. We are supposed to be our brother’s keeper, some are to watch over the Church. To ignore this is to have their blood on our hands (Acts 20:26), to warn them shows the same love and concern that Christ has. It’s a matter of love and truth that people do the research to see if what is said is s

What do YOU think?

comments

Comments

  1. As I said earlier, I’m no longer in the WOF teachings. I am trying to sort out the truth from the lies they fed us.

    I STILL believe in the written promises of God…but I’m not real sure how to apply them without doing it the way I was taught.

    Surely, the promises of God in the word are still for us?? And surely all His promises are yea and amen?
    but the moment I attempt to believe them, I am applying “faith” and I think “This is what I’m trying to get away from!!!”

    Still, on the other side, if I don’t have faith, and Jesus said we MUST have it… Jesus did INDEED say we could move the mountain, but I don’t want to be an imitator of Ken Hagin!

    They are correct. The verse that says “without faith it is impossible to please God” is IN the Bible, plain as day. But how can I NOT think of the WOF people when I apply it? How can I attempt to move mountains in my life without thinking of Kenneth Hagin???? How can I ever hear or read that verse from mark 11 without hearing Hagins’ voice in my head??

    How can I think of dominion or speaking the right words with my tongue without thinking of Charles Capps???

    Oh wretched man that I am! What am I to do? They, by their poisoned teachings have put me in a twixt! To have faith, or NOT to have faith? To stay poor and sick all my life because I am avoiding WOF teachings. Or to try to better my lot in life with promises I KNOW are Biblical? I walk a fine line, and I wish I had never HEARD of these people! I wish they would GO away from my brain! They have become my thorn in the flesh, so to speak,. My messenger of satan to buffet me.

    Thus I have plunged myself head first into a life of seeking God HEAVILY and fervently every single day of my life. Asking, pleading with the the Lord to grant me a pure heart, and to show me truth from error.

    In the end, after months of soul searching, I have decided to have faith in God’s promises, somehow, some way.

    As of late I am heavily into praying the Psalms. I believe it’s Biblical to do so. In fact, that’s why God put them there for us, no?

    As I was considering lately what I am going to believe about the NWO, and how I am going to conduct myself should I meet up with them in a confrontational setting, I discovered many precious promises (Shut up, Ken’s voice inside my head!!) concerning these things.

    This is one I found today, and it may be a blessing to you, too. Psalm 41:1 “Blessed is he that considereth the poor. The Lord will preserve him and keep him ALIVE and he shall be blessed upon the earth. thou wilt NOT deliver him unto the will of his enemies.”

    Read it!I didn’t make it up! it’ in the Bible, in plain black and white. a very CLEAR and undeniable promise. It’s an A/B thing, that is, if you will meet the condition, (A) God will do the promise (B)

    Look at what it is saying! It is telling me that my enemies (the NWO) are NOT going to have their will; their WAY with, me! Why? Because for the last couple years I have been giving of my meager income, in the midst of my debt, to help the poor, whom I have a heart of compassion for. It’s been the poor helping the poor, although to those poor people in third world countries, I would seem rich, I guess. but if the real rich of this world will not bless and help the poor, then it’ up to me. And God will JUDGE between me and them.
    And I have found many, many more precious promises in the Psalms. The Psalms is a literal treasure chest..a cornucopia of promises from God!

    More later.

    Doug

    • Doug:

      We’re in the same boat pal. Yep…David and Doug……row row row your boat gently down the stream. Merely merely merely merely faith seems but a dream.

      I hear your concerns. Old Mark 11;23-24 was Papa’s big one hey. Geezz. I have heard him preach that scripture a zillion times.

      Mind if I make a few comments?

      Even though the teachings and scriptures were pronounced by WOF past favorites….isn’t the real struggle knowing the unknowable God and His ways?

      He’s the All-Knowing God who forgets
      He’s the God of judgement who gives breaks
      He’s the changeless God who changes
      He’s the Prince who has a sword
      He’s the God of truth who sends delusions
      He’s tells us to both flee and fight evil
      It’s your choice but His choice

      Welcome to the world of contradictions…or are they?

      This may seem like an odd paradigm but I suspect that where there are two seemingly contradictory issues like those above, that the tension between the two is the force of the truth that holds the paradox together. Think about it. Even in science, the more you know the less you know. Why? Cuz one bit of info may have opened hundreds of new unthought of questions.

      Welcome to planet Earth.

      I don’t know how you’ll receive this but if you want the flip side message of our former faith teachers then I strongly recommend “The Fire of Delayed Answers” by Bob Sorge. I’m sure he can be found online. I have read literally hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of books in my days. This one for me is #1 and Sorge’s “The Secret Place” is the other. Phillip Yancey’s “Disappointment with God” is good too and his new book “Prayer”.

      Good work with the poor. I like your attitude. The NWO is really rollin now. I hear $800 billion in Ameros has been sent to China lately. Why? Dollar crash insurance. We’ve let China know we gotta another currency with Mexico and Canada as partners. Can you say “North American Union”. Now when unemployment hits 30% and chaos prevails (its 14% now, forget the gov stats at 7% they lie) then we’ll invoke Marshall law. Then all constitutional rights are suspended. Gotta problem? We have over 600 concentration camps for you to visit and foreign soldiers will keep you in line. Think not? There are 2,500 foreign soldiers training right now in NW Arizona. I know. I live in AZ.

      Oh…one warning when you’re in that Psalm praying mode. If ya get mad at anyone be careful. You’ll wanna pray them precatory prayers David used to throw around. “Rrrrrrrrr…..break their teeth out oh Lord”

      • Speaking of daddy Hagin, do you think he really had all those personal visitations from Jesus, or do you think he was “fibbing”? (nice word, there.)

        • Doug, I believe there is a spirit of divination that infests the prophetic movement. These people may believe it is God, when it is a lying spirit. This is why we need discernment.

          Blessings and Peace,
          Timothy

          • Timothy:

            I’d say you’re likely correct. However, I had one unusual occurrence in church regarding one claimed to be a prophet.

            I had come back and visited my old church after attending law school. A women was now on staff and I had heard she was putting out all these “words” to people. Now..I got no beef with that ala it’s God. Ok?

            Well…..I’m sitting in my seat and she gets up and starts talkin and within 5 or 10 minutes a voice inside me said “spirit of importance”. I thought “what”. A spirit of importance? What is that? Never heard of it?

            Then it occurred to me. It was a spirt of pride.

            This women later caused a major church exit. Up to half the people left the church due to her.

          • warrior daughter says:

            After reading about the WOF movement and after talking to many who have been deceived by this movement, the bottom line is that they preach another Jesus and and another Gospel…..
            With all the voices out there declaring I have Jesus for you, I have riches for you, I have whatever you need just listen to me and your hearts desires will be fulfilled, one needs to be careful…Many of these types ministries would fail, if people would stop supporting them but we are a needy people and we want our needs to be fulfilled and it is easy to fall prey to the charletons…When we are told we will have the desires of our heart met, they forget to state that is a condition and that condition must be met first (trust, do good, dwell, feed, delight on the Lord first) Psalms 37
            Recently, people were eagerly deceived into believing/worshipping angels even though we are warned that Satan is an angel of light but many rushed off to listen to this deception and receive this lie….
            Ephesians tells us that we are already rich when we have Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior…..

        • Doug:

          Hagin’s visits? Yea..I know em all. I’ve pretty well every book on the market on these kind of things. I came to this web site because I was investigating Choo Thomas.

          Before I respond let me tell you a little something on myself. I became a christian due to a supernatural experience some 20 years ago. I dropped dead at home from cocaine intoxication. I had been drug binging for 4 days and I had been going on these outrageous binges for 3 years or so. I pushed it to to far.

          What took place afterward is beyond comprehension. To say the least God allowed me to experience some sort of torment momentarily that I suppose would be similar to hell. After that the Glory of God filled my home for over 2 hours and God manifested Himself in ways I can not even explain. I did not go to hell. I did not go to heaven. Everything happened right in the home. Exactly one year from the date of this I became a born again christian.

          Why would God do this? Why me? I have never heard of Him doing this for others.

          I have gotten 2 answers over the years for why. First, a minister who had never met me up in Michigan looked at me in a service in 1991, packed with 1,200 people, stopped what he was preaching and pointed to me and said “God reserves the right to break the natural communication barriers to get to you” and he went right back to preaching his sermon. Wooo……

          Also, many years later my mother told me she told God if I went to hell that God would have to assure He did everything possible to reach me. She said she based this petition on her covenant with Him due to my dedication to Him as a baby. She pulled on the covenant they had over me. Think on that one?

          Hmmm?

          Ok………now back to Hagin…or Choo Thomas..or Mary Baxter, Don Piper or any other person who claims what maybe viewed as encountering bizaar experiences.

          The answer is I do not know if Hagin ever went to Heaven or had visits from the Lord. Having experienced a most unusual incident myself I tend to reserve my judgement. I know my story happened. I also know when this happens it is like a dream almost. It happens so fast. You will lack words to describe these kinds of occasions.

          Let me make one thing clear. I do not base my christianity on this incident 20 years ago. I base my christianity and relationship with God on His Word. This is my only caveat to people intrigued by Choo Thomas’ testimony or Baxter’s book on Hell. I’ll admit. There were things I recall from my episode that you’re not gonna find scripture for. You won’t understand if I try to tell you.

          On Hagin. Let me state that I learned an awful lot from Brother Hagin. He taught me a lot of truth. In the area of prayer and being led by the spirit he was really good. I got a lot of insight on reasons God does what he does. I’ll never forget his teaching series on “the praise cure”. Kenneth Hagin taught me a tremendous amount about the things of God. Remember Hagin was faith and healing, not prosperity. No money for miracles from him. He never taught that…instead read his book “The Midas Touch”. He rebukes the “100 fold” teaching and “naming your seed”. He comes right out against Oral Roberts and all those who claim to be “spiritual sons” of his in this book. He did not like the teachings being done by the prosperity pimps.

          However, dad was a plagerizer. He infringed the copyrights of EW Kenyons writings and sat there neck deep and denied it. He also claims I could “write my own ticket with God”. A misleading teaching. He also endorsed the JDS teaching. These are my caveats to him. Hey…do like Hagin said Doug…chew the hay and spit out the sticks.

          The visions and all? I’ve read them all. Heard him mention them over and over. Like my own unusual experience I don’t put a whole lot of stock in it. I got God’s Word in my hand. God also speaks to me on occasion. Not every second like some WOF act like but He does help me with His word and that’s good enough for me.

          Hang on..will make it Doug. God’s word says so.

          • warrior daughter says:

            I am not a fan of Hagin but here is an article about him before he died….It is from Charisma Magazine that lacks saying no to some of their supporters when it comes to endorsing some ministries….

            Kenneth Hagin’s Forgotten Warning
            Before he died in 2003, the revered father of the Word-Faith movement corrected his spiritual sons for going to extremes with their message of prosperity.

            Charismatic Bible teacher Kenneth Hagin Sr. is considered the father of the so-called prosperity gospel. The folksy, self-trained “Dad Hagin” started a grass-roots movement in Oklahoma that produced a Bible college and a crop of famous preachers including Kenneth Copeland, Jerry Savelle, Charles Capps, Jesse DuPlantis, Creflo Dollar and dozens of others—all of whom teach that Christians who give generously should expect financial rewards on this side of heaven.

            Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor. But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.
            Those who were close to Hagin Sr. say he was passionate about correcting these abuses before he died. In fact, he wrote a brutally honest book to address his concerns. The Midas Touch was published in 2000, a year after the infamous Tulsa meeting.

            “Kenneth Hagin Sr. was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.”

            Many Word-Faith ministers ignored the book. But in light of the recent controversy over prosperity doctrines, it might be a good idea to dust it off and read it again.

            Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:

            1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”

            2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”

            3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”

            4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.

            5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”

            (Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)

            Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,” Hagin wrote.

            Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.

            Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?

            http://fireinmybones.com/index.php?col=030708~Kenneth%20Hagin%E2%80%99s%20Forgotten%20Warning

          • Thank-you for posting this other side of the coin. There is just so much I don’t know or understand. So many contradictions I simply can not resolve. It is an enigma to me of monstrous proportions.

            I want so BAD to believe that Kenneth Hagin was indeed a man of God. I have read his writings and teachings over the years, I ascribed to his teachings wholeheartedly. after all, here was a man (so I thought) who has seen the lord Jesus Christ with his own physical eyes on many occasions. And he has said things that only a true man of God would say, yet, at the same time, I view the videos of him leading people into hissing like snakes, and then I have to put him totally on the other side of the scale.

            How does one resolve the contradictions? He preached total healing, yet he visited a doctor for his heart condition.

            He personally layed hands on my wife and pronounced that she had a creation miracle of a brand new heart, and yet she died of heart disease.

            He taught that a man can live 120 years, and that he himself would, yet he died much younger than that, with his face in his oatmeal. (of a heart attack, I understand)

            I am so TORN!!!! Oh, wretched man that I am! What am I to think? How can I ever resolve the conflicts and contradictions?????

            It is impossible for me to do so. I simply do not know what to think.

            Now I see the same kind of contradictions in Kenneth Copeland. Again, what am I to think??

            I can only err on the side of caution.

          • Doug:

            I seriously doubt you will ever find anyone who knew Hagin’s ministry more than I. This is not to brag but to make a point. I spent thousands on Hagin’s books and tapes. His library catalog is huge! I traveled around the states and attended his meetings for weeks on end. I have met him. Last time we spoke we talked about whether it was scriptural to “plead the Blood”.

            First, let’s clarify where I disagree with Hagin. One, his teaching on “You can write your own ticket with God”. If you did not know Hagin’s entire teaching in his library then this series by itself can really lead you down the wrong side. Taken with Hagin’s other teachings you’ll be ok. However, I think this is dangerous. Second, JDS teachings. I do not believe Jesus spiritually died in hell and was “born again”. Third, …I can’t remember but there was another topic.

            Ok..on living 120 years. This is based on a promise of God’s word regarding honoring our parents and some other scripture I can’t remember. I’d have to look this up again in my library. The point is…. the standard to fulfill your end of this promise 100% (this is a conditional promise) is high and no one I know has done it. Don’t worry about it.

            On Hagin’s health and death. Let me tell you something. I was with Hagin in Virginia beach in 2002 or 2003. He stood and spoke til midnight almost every night. I’m talking at least 3 hours. Under a very heavy anointing. He never wore glasses and if he was ever sick I don’t know it. Now…here’s the point. He is not immortal. He must die sometime. Yes…he visited the local hospital for chest pain because he prayed and they would not stop. His family put pressure on him to go. Also, if you listen to him preach he will tell you his wife always goes to doctors but his son Ken was able to receive his own healing by age 15. It was Hagin’s time to return to dust.

            On the hissing. What he is doing is blowing thru his mouth. I have stood right in front of him when he does this. The power of God is so strong on him he is taking a deep breath and the mic is picking up his exhalation. I have seen the very same videos. His critics are fools. However, I have one major beef with him. I do not believe his side of the story regarding the plagerism of EW Kenyons books. Sad but true.

          • I’m listening. I am open and anxious to hear all sides of the story. I simply want the TRUTH.

            Doug

          • Doug:

            Minister’s are to build us up and encourage us. No problem there. They do not sit and discuss what goes on in their office Monday thru Friday at the pulpit. The don’t tell us everything they know. I know….. I have been around an incredible amount of ministers in my days. What they tell me off church grounds in private and what they say in church pulpits can be very different. For good reason. Many christians are not ready to hear what they know. It may only bring confusion. Subjects like healing can be very complex. Like I said before…it is #1 on the list as well as “God’s will for my life” for issues troubling christians. I maybe wrong but unforgiveness maybe the #1 reason why we don’t receive and that goes for me as well. Other factors join in too. Keep in mind Michael’s comment on Deut. 29:29…the secret things belong to the Lord. Hmmm? Sometimes God does inform his minister.

            For example, God may reveal why someone is not delivered or not healed to a minister but they’re not gonna tell the congregation. Prophecies of healing may be given to be one part of the healing process but often they do not mention this when giving a healing word. Remember, Hagin said in 60 years of ministry he figured that 80% of all healings were progressive and maybe 20% were instantaneous. In some areas he had pretty good success like women’s tumors and injuries from below the hip. Yet he had very poor healing success in other areas. He said this numerous times. My guess is most healing is a step by step, faith by faith process. Most of the time. I said this was only a guess.

            If you want a fair critical review of Hagin then read “Another Gospel” by Dr. McConnell. You’ve heard my views.

          • warrior daughter says:

            Man will always disappoint another but God and God alone will never disappoint …
            Man will lie or stretch the truth as it is called but God cannot lie….
            Man is corrupt due to sin but God is just and holy….

            Our trust must be only in God and God alone for kingdoms have been built and kingdoms have fallen but God has held on steadily to His children….He will not nor can He let go of one of His………..

          • Well said warrior daughter!

            Blessings and Peace,
            Timothy

          • gate007 says:

            Doug:

            Brother Hagin loved the Lord. He’s in heaven now. He has much fruit, I assure you that. Many became born again and blessed in his crusades.

            Was he a man of God? Yes.

            His visions? Are they true? I don’t know? God knows.

            Did everyone get healed at his crusades? No.

            Did anybody get healed? Yes.

            Did Hagin cast out demons? yes

            His teachings…are they all true? I do not believe so..not all of them. This is my opinion. I may be wrong.

            Does God anoint men who teach false teachings? Recall my comment on my petition to God about a false teaching by Benny Hinn. The Lord spoke “I will bless that which is truth and that which is not truth I will not bless”. Yep..put that in your pipe and smoke it. I got that off the live wire from heaven pal and I’m content with it too.

            So yes…the Holy Spirit was with Hagin and blessing and manifesting on those things Hagin put out that were truth. Now people will argue about that but this is where I am settled on the subject.

            Did Hagin accurately prophecy all the time? Don’t know. He gave a very long winded word in St. Louis in 1996 that I do not believe came to pass. Something about some great manifestation of the spirit and so forth breaking out. Far as I know it has never happened and he indicated this was something that “you’re right on the verge” on……so I’d say this didn’t happen. I don’t know…maybe I’m off. However, I never heard him prophecy anything else that was off. Others disagree.

            Was Hagin balanced in his finances? Yes!

            Did Hagin live a balanced financial life and was he accountable? Yes

            Did Hagin properly handle ministry money wisely? Yes

            Was Hagin a prosperity pervert? No

            Are his so called spiritual sons prosperity perverts? You bet…almost all of them if not all of them. They’re terrible.

            Is Hagin responsible for this? No, he never taught it so they perverted the scriptures on their own.

            Did Hagin teach another gospel? I don’t believe so…others disagree.

            Is JDS teaching (Jesus died spirtually) a different Jesus? This is very technical. Jesus was separated on the cross from His Father. We could call this separation a spiritual separation or death, however the one who really makes a stink about JDS is Copeland not Hagin. I gotta go look at that book “The Wonderful name of Jesus” and re-read what Hagin wrote on JDS but my recall is he believes Jesus suffered some kind of spiritual death in hell. I do not share this view with him. Since the Bible warns of strong accountability to teachers and Hagin was a teacher then Hagin will answer to the Lord for this teaching if he is wrong, which I believe he is. If one believes this view I believe you are saved. I just don’t see the scripture supporting this view.

            Trust me. I have gone thru a lot of anxiety and frustration with all WOF ministers. I’m just about thru sifting thru all the teachings and getting my belief system straightened around. Not all was a lie Doug but I admit there’s a serious balance missing scripturally. Just keep plugin away. You’ll get there.

          • Oh, I’m not giving up!

            So much food for thought in your post!

      • Here’s the truth. I don’t feel any hostility toward my earthly enemies. “When a man’s ways please the Lord, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.”

        It’s my spiritual enemies I’m after. I want to see the devil and his bunch drawn and quartered. When God throws him into the pit, I want to be there to give him one last final kick.

        “Here sucker. Remember all the crap you did to me on earth? Shoes on the other foot now, huh?”

  2. Michael thank-you for the link to the watchman radio spot. It struck me so incredibly hard. I got ahold of my brother, and he came over and we listened to it again…he was dumbfounded.
    we began looking up videos on youtube, and I found the rebirth of a nation prophesies and website…we listened to them all for a couple hours.

    I went to bed and had vivid nightmares about the NWO takeover. I woke up trembling. I’m convinced we have only days left as a Nation. I’m convinced that the visions of the Statue of liberty were from God. We’re toast.
    I’ll continue doing what i have been doing..that is, reading my Bible, setting my self apart separate, seeking the Lord intensely every day. But time is gone. March is UPON US. We are OUT OF TIME.

  3. Should we not expect the BMW’s 7 series, the mansions? The World capitalizes on the gullible- Satan himself is typed by
    the King of Tyre- how more wealthy can you get than that?

    Let’s eclipse the Benny Hinns, the Copelands, the Pappa Hagins the whole bunch of them. Let us be filled with the Spirit, ministering, preaching, teaching in power. Let the sick be raised, those in bondage be released on a grand scale. When Truth meets Fake- truth wins.

    When the faithful get this right, the faithful will plead: “Lord tarry awhile!”

  4. I actually laugh at the fools who throw this phrase out when they’re criticized.

    Benny Hinn being #1 and sodomite Paul Crouch and his TBN Funny Farm as well.

    When Benny Hinn becomes our national leader, aka: President Benny Hinn, and a national prophet dumps oil on his head publicly then I might reconsider….for a moment.

    One of the key signs of a cult leader is they put themselves out a hedge to not be challenged or criticized. Nowhere is this seen more than with Word of Faith prosperity perverts. I saw false prophet and healer Richard Roberts on TV last week telling me if I have heard anything bad about “ministers” (Richard himself that is) then forgive them and get over it! That’s right folks…just keep sending Ol Richy Boy money.

    Well…I keep touchin the anointed and nothin happens. Ol Benny’s curses on us “touchers” ain’t workin to well is it?

    • Amen brother!

      Apparently, someone else is not too afraid of touching them too, as I just found this prophecy:

      Prophetic Word for & about Gloria Copeland, Kenneth Copeland Ministries (KCM)

      I have prayed about this as well as ’sat’ on it for a few days and am convinced this is for public view. I have already notified KCM ministries in Fort Worth of this prophecy’s existence and given them a link to it. They unhelpfully would not supply me with better contact details. (They did not know its content). I have not altered or deleted one single word in order to stay faithful to God. I fear God more than Man. It is the truth and He will vindicate me.

      Please note that the main revelation is in purple font and this should be viewed as the actual ‘pure’ revelation and prophecy. I have anotated it and added notes and my own opinions in brown front – and as my opinions and understanding may not be quite correct as they are not ‘pure’ revelation, I have differentiated it from the purple words.

      A few nights ago, I heard God speak the name ‘Gloria Copeland’ and I then saw a vision of her. (I had not seen Gloria before this but I knew exactly what she looked like as has been subsequentally confirmed by an internet search. I was very surprised to hear God speak her name to me: it came out of ‘nowhere’ as I have not heard her name or thought about her for a long time.) Then, in the vision, I saw that Gloria Copeland was naked, but for being dressed in a black garbage bag which acted as a makeshift dress for her. I wondered what this meant, and then God reminded me that what one ‘dresses’ in can be in a spiritual sense – spiritual clothes comprising a spiritual covering which is either of the darkness or of the light, and indicating one’s righteousness (or not) before God.

      ‘You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realise that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked, I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.’ (Revelation 3:17)

      I realised that God was saying that Gloria Copeland was spiritually dressed in ‘garbage’ before Him. The garbage bag was black, representing she was of darkness and not the light. She is currently not viewed as righteous before God and is not of the light. Furthermore she is leading many Christians astray by her ‘dark’ false teaching and false prophecies. God pulled no punches at getting straight to the point about her. Christians should have nothing to do with her (unless she publically repents).

      (An ‘apologetic’: I did not know anything about Gloria Copeland before this vision apart from I knew her name and the fact she was a Pentecostal on Christian TV now and again. I certainly did not think her to be all that ‘bad’ doctrinally, or otherwise, (but then I did not really know anything about her as I had never researched her). I wish to emphasise there was no prejudice toward her on my part before this vision. I was surprised to hear 1) God speak her name and 2) to hear such a strongly worded detailed prophecy about her. However, I know God’s voice and know this is Him and that he is speaking the truth.

      He has every right to use such strong words and to publically shame her as I have since researched and discovered there is plenty of evidence to confirm why God is angry with Gloria. This prophecy is entirely agrees with documented evidence about her and her husband Kenneth’s ministry and beliefs. God if anything, is being very kind about her/them in this prophecy, bearing in mind all they have done: He is giving them a chance to repent. This is not a prophecy of hate, it is one of love, it is sent in order to rescue and release and ultimately bless and build up and to save and not to condemn or mock. Yes the words are strong, but God has every right to cut right to the hearts: they are His words and not my own, I have not altered them in any way – all my anotations are deliberately kept in another font colour to keep the prophecy ‘pure’. He has used harsher words in the past against idolators, fools and mockers who despise the Lord their God. It is up to the Copelands whether they respond to God in a spirit of repentance and humility or if they continue on their ‘collision’ course. God loves them and is urging them to come to Him, but he has made it clear that he will not suffer their foolishness much longer if they delay repenting.

      This prophecy is also for the wider church in order to identify the Copeland’s errors, to other ministries to recognise God will judge ministries like the Copelands either here or in the world to come, and to warn them to make sure they are right before God, and this prophecy is also to Copeland’s followers to warn them to steer clear of them….and if you continue to support them in any shape or form, you are supporting something that God has made abundantly clear he hates and you will be rebelling against God and risking his wrath.)

      The next night (after the first vision of her dressed in the garbage bag), I asked for more information, confirmation and clarity about the Gloria vision. I saw a vision of Gloria Copeland taking a little brown dog for a walk down the street. She looks very finely dressed, her hair is all done pristinely and she is wearing an expensive looking ‘power suit’. The little dog she is walking suddenly runs ahead of her and so she lets slip of its leash by accident and the dog runs off. She runs after it, but she cannot keep up with it and catch it. She runs tottering on her high heels after it, her heavy pearl necklace flapping against her neck as she runs. It is a comical sight. The dog runs far ahead barking.

      ‘She cannot keep up with it, or control this dog. How far less can she control me, the Lord of hosts?’ asks the Lord. ‘She makes her demands, pointing with a boney finger and jabbing at her shopping list saying ‘I’ll have this, I’ll have that’, (I see her with dark eyes which are greedy and self serving and a cold heart while she does this ‘prayer’) with little regard for what I want. So, says the Lord of Hosts, I will allow trouble (in judgment – I thought it may be sickness but not sure what exactly it was) to come upon her, and all her pearls of wisdom (her false theology) and other fine things (she is very greedy and materialistic) will not save her in that day. Then perhaps she will come before me on her knees, in humility.’ (to ask for release from judgment/problems)

      I then see her emptying sand out from one of her high heel shoes, so God says there is much error in her walk and the ‘gospel’ that she presents. ‘

      She makes things look fine on the outside as she ensures enough lipgloss is on her lips, and flicks/preens her hair for the tv cameras and her public as she titivates herself (making herself look good on the outside), forgetting that I, the Lord of Hosts, see all and know the heart, and her heart is not right before me, neither does she want to know me.’ She plots in secret with her husband, her sight on business growth charts and goals and money – there her heart truly is – and she has forgotten me, the Lord her God.

      She claims to give out medicine yet she feeds out poison, that makes people sick to their stomachs and with forked tongues they vomit it out. (The forked tongues are like a snake’s tongue indicating what she feeds (her doctine) is dark/satanic in origin).

      ‘(Gloria), You see yourself like a shining star in the sky, (I see her and Kenneth’s ministry photo glued onto a large star (which was a bit like a photo stuck onto a star shaped rosette) on a large poster with other stars (stars = angels/spiritual beings/gods) stuck onto a blue sky (sky = the heavens/celestial realms) and she and Kenneth place their own star which was their photo high up at the top of this poster on the left hand side – symbolically representing how they elevate themselves) you elevate yourself, but I will make you a shooting star that vanishes and is remembered no more. ‘We are as gods’ you say, ‘gods of the most high’. Tell me do you know the ways of heaven? You do not even know the ways of earth! I tell you the truth that a bird collecting twigs for its nest shows more wisdom and foresight that you do. There is more wisdom in its collecting and building for it knows what its home is to be like/where it is. You do not. You cling to the things of this world but they are but rubbish.

      ‘Who is like unto us?’ you say proudly. (pp who is like unto the beast)

      He will command his angels concerning you that you WILL strike your foot against a stone (judgment is coming pp Herod’s being eaten by worms in Acts as the people said he was a god and he did not rebuke them so was struck by an angel with sickness)

      How you will fall Oh son of the Dawn (son of the dawn = satan – this is indicating the true power behind Gloria Copeland)

      How the people will mourn

      You (Gloria) are (part of) the false prophet that will be cast into the fiery pit (If you do not repent)

      ‘Did I know?’ she (Gloria) asks (and others ask for her – that is, can she be excused from such judgment as did she not really know that it was dark in origin?)

      Yes you did (know)! (says God). You knew the source and yet you repented not and led multitudes astray with you. Like the pied piper you led them into brimming supermarket aisles (advocating greed and materialism as well as also selling the gospel/prophecies for your own ends) and you and they rejoiced to the chime of cash registers.

      Ding dong merrily on high

      The cash registers are ringing

      Ding dong merrily on high

      The Copelands are sinning

      La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la Gloria

      In Excelsis, (in excelsis = ‘in the highest’ – meaning glory to Gloria Copeland who claims to be a god) Did they ‘buy’ it? (‘Buy’ as in merchandising the ‘gospel’, but also did they ‘buy’ it, were the people fooled?)

      I then see a vision of a clock with dark hands stuck at six o’clock – six is the number of man – ‘So you are not gods but men. Are you equal to me? (If so) Then stop this judgment coming on you ‘Gloria’.’ says God.

      I see Gloria relaxing in a swimming pool floating on their back in quite a decadent way, and then she is pressed down upon from above by a dark hand (Satan) with the intent to drown her. It is a spiritual anointing albeit dark in origin. (The Greek for the Spirit of the Lord being upon someone conveys the idea of the ‘anointing’ pressing down on the person) and this counterfeit anointing is pressing down upon her neck for hateful reasons. The pressing down is at the Adam’s apple area (I know she is a lady and does not have one but this is symbolic) – and the Adam’s apple is representing biting into the apple, sinfulness, the serpent, occult wisdom etc. God is saying Satan has her by the neck with the view to drowning her –Gloria does not realise the danger she is in or how much her ‘allie’ hates her, she has been conned – and there is a false anointing as well as sinfulness and rebellion in her life.

      God says that she is a rebellious child that does not want to know. God has given her chances to repent, He has waited patiently but he will wait no more, and she will be no more.

      Judgment is coming upon your house (plural) so possibly more than Gloria will be judged when it strikes.

      God shows me Gloria – in a vision she is as a mare (female horse) (but ‘mare’ is also the word for a problematic person – a ‘nightmare’ – hence God uses this term too) and it is stomping its feet and tossing its head, and sets itself up in opposition to God. (She is rebellious intentionally, she knows better, she is a mare to deal with and correct).

      I then see her with others playing with black chess pieces (= the dark side) including a chess piece that becomes a bigger chess piece and it resembles an oriental eastern wise man idol with a long moustache down past his waist (karate kid style) (representing eastern religion/occultic mysticism) and it is red (pp the red dragon in revelation = satan) ‘Why do you divine in secret? You have a secret tea party (like Alice in wonderland) and drink strange foreign things – come to MY table for I will quench your thirst and fill your hunger.’

      I then see Gloria on a ladder trying to clean the upper windows of her house which are filthy (upper windows = her mind) and these windows are polluted with strange bonfire smoke, from strange fires (false religion/false revival/false anointing/idolotary). Come clean these windows, you cannot clean the stain yourself, it is so filthy (even her rags are filthy), only God can clean these stains. (Let God do it and repent of this filth.)

      ‘I put you in stocks and publically shame you for all you have done, and I humiliate you.’ (Perhaps the meaning of this is that He is shaming her by this public word, and perhaps God will send other things to humiliate her. She is such a public figure that she must be publically rebuked and named and shamed – she has led masses astray. It is no slight thing.)

      ‘Do not raise your finger against me, do not dare!’ (says God). ‘How is that Satan has so enamoured your heart that you believe you can take my place?! Can any? Can he? If he cannot himself, how will he give you the power to? Yet he has seduced you, the beautiful serpent has beguiled you and twisted your mind to believe you can sieze my throne. Anarchy!’

      I see in a vision Gloria planting a garden but she plants it with floppy dead and unhealthy weeds. No good word dwells in you, your cakes do not rise, your buildings are left less than half built (this is all spiritual not physical), your shoes run ahead with no feet in them. There is a lack of power, lack of truth, lack of righteousness, lack of peace, lack of me (God).

      ‘He who trusts in me, out of him will come rivers of living water’

      I see her stomach (and also, I think, the stomachs of those she ministers to), and the vision is in direct contrast to the above scriptural promise, and something horrible is punching the stomach from the outside so she is crippled over in agony (though they do not know it), and I see her mouth open and out of it comes literally empty hollow words. There is no noise. (God is saying that it is not true rivers and not true words from her ministry, and it damages and hursts rather than blesses and builds up and empowers.)

      I see a set square – (the freemasonry symbol) – God says, ‘So I have measured you and found you lacking.’

      I see her encouraging people to board a false train (false gospel), yet God says he wants her to get back onto the true train.

      ‘Though he slay me, yet I will hope in him’ Job 13:15

      I see her hands and they are diviners hands and magicians fingertips, they are dangling and sparkling and hungry for the (counterfeit) anointing – itchy fingers and itchy hands. You attempt to sell my anointing to the highest bidder – and who has bought your soul? Whom have you offered it to (for money) Hmm? Who? You and I know full well, you wicked doer! ‘

      You pretend all is sweet, yet you allow your husband to share another woman’s bed and this has gone on for years. His infidility has gone on in your full view/knowledge, yet you give it your ‘blessing’. Well, just as he has slept around on you, so you have slept around on me!’ says the Lord.

      ‘Shall I measure them?’ (them = Copelands) a voice from heaven says. ‘Are they 9 inches high, as surely they are in my hand!’ says the Lord. (Kenneth is reported as saying God the Father is about 6 foot 2 and has a 9 inch hand span. God, of course, is omnipresent. Heaven is his throne, and Earth is his footstall.) ‘and my anger burns against them. As reeds burnt in a forest fire, so will I destroy them. They have provoked me to anger. The people think I am dead and no longer judge, and that I no longer care, and my name is profaned, they are blasphemers, Kenneth cuts me down in vile tongues and mocks me openly. His lips are sensuous and polluted and tingling and sinful. ‘

      See this burning coal has touched your lips’ (Isaiah) I urge you to let God’s ‘burning coal’ – his atoning and cleansing touch touch your ministry and so transform it from a work of darkness to one of the light, so that with skilful shepherds crooks, Gloria and Kenneth will shepherd the flock (become true shepherds for God.) ‘

      Be for me or be against me, choose which way’ says God. (Last chance, repent today while there is still time for you.).

      Even now, declares the LORD, return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning. Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love, and he relents from sending calamity. Joel 2:12-13

      By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.‘ Ezekiel 28:18-19

      • I know where this comes from, but does anyone know whether the author is a genuine prophetess with a proven track record of getting it right? Could this just a populist jab at an easy target? I don’t know.

        Be for me or be against me, choose which way’ says God. (Last chance, repent today while there is still time for you.).

        This prophecy was given some time ago, so does that mean that time is up. I’ve heard of no “repentance” from the Copelands.

        We are supposed to judge prophecy. I actually find it really hard to believe that the author of this prophecy, who has commented on scores of different “ministries” across the United States on her website, did not know who Gloria Copeland was when she apparently saw her in a vision. I mean, Gloria Copeland has been putting her face on books, magazines and television for DECADES.

        (I had not seen Gloria before this but I knew exactly what she looked like as has been subsequentally confirmed by an internet search. I was very surprised to hear God speak her name to me: it came out of ‘nowhere’ as I have not heard her name or thought about her for a long time.

        Really? And from someone who is so well informed on so many people in charismania?

        I think its good to have a little bit of healthy skepticism about prophecies like this folks. Its not that I think those Copelands are offering a balanced and true picture of things from the Word of God. They espouse a mixture of truth and error and a little leaven leavens the whole lump. I don’t wish to defend them. I personally would just wish people would ignore them and listen to purer sources of God’s message.

        But it doesn’t mean that prophecies like this are right either. We (myself included) have to be careful of the attitude which delights in taking people down.

        • warrior daughter says:

          After reading the prophecy, I disregarded it and felt that the person had a an unknown reason to attack Copeland…I am not a Copeland fan, never was and never will be…The whole prophecy was attack, attack, attack…I think that a word like this would come directly to the person and not through another….This was a vision and not a dream, and our own imaginations can get in the way and many visions are not from God….
          I think that when copying and pasteing something from another site, the site should be included….

        • I am really confussed and shocked after reading about false preaching on KCM. Because I receive their free copy of the magazine ‘VICTORY’ Every month. Should I discontinue subsribing this? Please advice

          • Linnet,

            Trust God to lead you into His truth. God is a miracle working God and He is our Deliverer. Be circumspect, and ask the Lord to show you where any false teaching has been accepted into your life. Review the doctrines you have been taught and bring them up here if you have questions. I believe Michael is very sound in his insights, but even still, you have to weigh EVERYTHING by the Bible and not ANYbody’s interpretation. God will always lead a sincere heart home. “If you seek me, you shall find me, when you seek me with ALL your heart.” Do not be dismayed, or afraid, we are all learning as we grow in grace and knowledge!

            Blessings and Peace,
            Timothy

          • Do a study on the life of the apostle Paul and his sufferings and ask yourself – was Paul suffering because of IGNORANCE of God’s covenant or BECAUSE he was faithful to it?

    • Its one thing to see the faults in something and someone, its another thing to handle it in humility.

      Dear brother just ask the Lord about this.

      Do I detect a kind of sneering sarcasm in your tone here?

      The fact that something is really wrong does not mean that we can talk about it any way we like.

      I wonder if we can yet weep for the people being led astray, or even for those deceiving them? Given another set of circumstances and opportunities, perhaps you or I might have been in their place.

      • Hi Michael:

        You make a fair assessment. There is sarcasm in my comment in the mocking statement of not being subject to Benny Hinn’s curses, which is witchcraft. Shame on Benny.

        What you’re picking up on is my resentment to their arrogance of responsibility. I have personally witnessed Hinn and others on TBN go absolutely berserk when they are held to scripture and accountability. It really angers them. They really believe they are beyond answering to anyone. Heretic hunters is what they call anyone who challenges their bazaar claims, prophecies, visions or teachings. Like I said…this is a major indication you’re dealing with a cult leader.

        Let me comment on those being led astray by such folks. I am only referring to what I consider to be christian cult leaders or those christians with bazaar unscriptural teachings (prosperity pimps ..etc.). Not those who don’t teach another Jesus, like JW or Mormons ..etc. Yes, many of these people will believe some of these peoples false teachings, like JDS. Many will give money only to throw it away. However, God in His mercy will bless these people regardless. How many people in South America became born again during those Swaggart crusades when Jimmy was neck deep in sin? Let me explain.

        Several years ago I read a book by Benny Hinn. He stated in his book that the scripture regarding “knocking, asking and seeking” meant those who knock were only knocking on Heaven’s door for others and not themselves, which is absurd. It can be either. Now Benny’s reason was the example of the fella who came knockin on his neighbors door late a night because company had arrived and he needed food. His friend was already in bed and was not agreeable to get up and answer. You recall the story, right? Ok, anyways….I went for a long walk and gave God an ear full on how these people can sell books based on asinine interpretations. How can God use a clown like Hinn? I have seen Benny often and admit I have felt God’s presence many times. It confuses me how God will be with him at times? After a long prayer time in tongues God spoke these words to me. “I will bless what he teaches which is true and that which is not true, I will not bless”.

        Hmmm? I had to chew on that one for a bit…still am somewhat.

        So..if you go see Benny and don’t get healed …..well…you haven’t really been hurt per se. Plus, many of those people really love and worship the Lord at his crusades. You at least got a chance to worship God. Now some of Benny’s bad teaching maybe another thing? I suppose no major harm done if you believed Benny when he said God told him Fidel Castro would die in the 90’s. Wanna throw money at Richard Roberts or Paula White? Go ahead. Now you’re just short a few bucks. However, there are times these people present truth. If you believe that truth then I suspect that you will be blessed. Does this make sense to you? If Paula White leads you into a sinners prayer and you believe it then I believe you are born again. She may even teach you some Biblical principles on giving that are accurate. Thus, God will bless that truth you received. However, I do not endorse her. She’s a prosperity pimp.

        Well…..I enjoy the discussion Michael. I am still coming out of my WOF teachings. It’s been about 6 years. It takes time to evaluate all you have been taught and confirm it with God’s word, while still being human and filtering everything thru dark colored glasses. It was hard to come to realize I had faith in my faith, not God. I was ordering angels around and telling God I was putting a demand on His word and other absurdities.

        • Dear brother,

          I encourage you to register on the site and post under a login name, that way I won’t have to manually approve your comments.

          Even though false prophets may have deceived us in the past, we need to grow beyond resentment. Resentment is not a healthy thing for the Christian soul.

          Its right to hate the evil, to expose it, but if our hearts are tinged with resentment and bitterness, it will not minister life but will often serve to harden people in their positions – for or against.

          As far as giving to false preachers is concerned, or those who prostitute the gospel for personal gain, I have talked about the dangers of this at this link:

          http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/node/17349

          We should encourage people to give to the right things, and not to hand their personal power over to false prophets, lest they come to poverty and be partakers in the SINS of others.

          Brother, this life will soon be over for all of us. In a few short decades at most, we will all be in eternity. Its possible that life as we know it will never be the same within MONTHS – that is how serious the times are now. God will take vengeance on false prophets who don’t repent. I don’t envy them at all.

          We have to make sure we are humbling ourselves before the Lord, listening to Him, and doing His commandments. We have to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and rise above petty human reactions to the evil in this world.

          God bless you.

          • Michael:

            You’re a good man. I can discern your spirit. I like you.

            Michael……you hit the nail on the head. I am resentful. I am bitter. I am angry. My pride has been bruised because I got involved in a cult. I bought the lies taught by my heros. I was duped. I can’t believe God would allow me to fall for this stuff … or…..was it what I wanted to hear? I thought I was being told the truth. I was not! I was sincere. I was sincerly wrong…not in everything but enough to shipwreck me.

            I’ve met em all Mike. From Charles Capps to Ken and Gloria Copeland to Benny Hinn to Jack Hayford to Jesse Duplantis. The list is a mile long. I dated the Pastor’s daughter of a Full Gospel Church for years. I went to Regent University Law School where I befriended the Dean (Vince Synon) of the School of Divinity. I met all the WOF biggies either on campus, chapel or at church. I spent time with them in the Pastors home, having lunch or dinner, after church fellowship and so forth. They were my heros. They deceived me.

            I am still going thru a healing process Michael. It’s been a very painful process. Some days I wake up and want to end it all. I can’t take the confusion and frustration. I just want to bathe in the truth. I wanna stand in God’s presence so He can change me. I can’t find it. One church teaches this …another teaches that. Power and control struggles. Abuse in church leadership. It goes on and on.

            I am worn out. I am battle weary. I am not even really connected to the body of Christ any longer. I have no church per se, just visit em here and there. I trust no minister. I am wounded and broken down on the side of the road. Going nowhere. Wonderful.

            How’s that for confession?

            Appreciate your input. I trust you’re a friend. Your analysis so far is correct.

            Oh…I’ll try the login thing

            God Bless

          • Dear brother,

            If you are happy to, then contact me by email or register and send me a private message. I’d love to talk with you.

            Michael

          • Please stay in touch here brother. You are loved in the Lord.
            God bless you for sharing your story.
            Pete

          • Hey Guys…..thanks for the support

            I never thought it would take so long and be so difficult to get back up after being floored at my church in Norfolk. The process started after a meltdown in December of 2002. My awesome wonderful anointed worship leader was booted by my Pastor cuz he couldn’t tolerate a little confrontation. Seems now my Pastor is in big now with John Maxwell and my worship leader, who was head elder, didn’t believe this was where God was taking us in ministry. Anyways……………another church split. This made number 3 for me in 10 years.

            Hope I didn’t sound like I was strikin up my own pity party in the last comment? Michael noted my sarcasm and I don’t deny but I just wanted to give some background (not an excuse) to my cynicism. However, I will overcome but it is taking a lot more effort and time than I ever imagined. Love, forgiveness and healing can be a long road. I have had to turn over every single belief instilled within me to see where I got it. From God or man? I quote things that aren’t even in the Bible. I have beliefs that are not Biblical. Why? Cuz I got it out of some book or heard it from some false teacher on a tape or TV. You talk about rootin out the farm brothers…I got me a pick ax, shovel and every other garden tool after my belief system.

            Sounds crazy? Consider the following. I own one of the largest libraries and tape/cd collections on WOF teaching on the planet. No joke. Thousands and thousands of dollars. Stacks and stacks and more stacks of bookshelves full. I essentially have the entire Hagin library, some $3,000 of tapes from Bob Yandian, the entire Murdock book and tape library, boxes and boxes and boxes of tapes by Fred Price, Ken Copeland, Creflo Dollar and so forth. You name it and I probably got it. Now I gotta pull out the Word (no commentary) and go thru everything I’ve been taught by these men and ask the Holy Spirit to show me where they were correct and where they were wrong. Not an easy task.

            During this process I find myself antagonized from 3 different areas.

            One, being every pentecostal/charismatic church I visit has either WOF perversion in their church book store or the actual perverts visit and speak at the church themselves. If you are a Pastor and you allow WOF teachings like money for miracle, how to receive the blessing, JDS, speak (demand) the word, and so forth then you have no credibility with me. Shame on you. The book being sold on your property is your endorsement of the minister. Problem is…the worship I seek I find in these churches. I gotta get past this.

            Second, bloggers irritate me with their ignorance about charismatics. It’s always someone who doesn’t believe in the charIsmata for today. I just need to stay off certain websites. People manifest differently when the spirit of God gets on them. I used to question my brothers and sisters who got drunk in some of our church meetings til it happened to me. First time was with John Bevere. Man oh man…did God flat out smoke me. It was wonderful. I was on fire for God like a mad man for months after that. Yes, it eventually weans off but it is awesome while that anointing lasts. No way it’s Satan. You’ll crave the things off God like an addict. Talk about fire. I need it again! Like right now. Not that we should always seek this kind of manifestation nor should we always be lookin for a word from God but there are times it breaks the yoke like nothin else. Praise God!

            Third is christian TV. I no longer turn on the Total Bull network (TBN). You don’t even know half of the stuff that goes on there. My missions director used to be on TBN all the time. I’ve heard plenty. Too much. GodTV is flaky too but they have on some folks I really like then others who confuse me. You know, after 2002 I got around Mike Bickel a lot. He’s on GodTV constantly with his IHOP group. I know em all up there in KC. Rick Joyner, Dutch Sheets, ..etc. Been to the Harp and Bowl stuff, was a member of the Joseph’s Company and have personal met and had dinner with Mike Bickel. I was ready to move there and attend the Forerunner’s School til I ran a check on his so called “KC Prophets”. Wooooooo…..hold everything! You gotta be jokin? Bob Jones? Paul Cain? No thanks! One stepped down for alcoholism and homosexuality and the other is flat nuts. What was his big revelation? Having women disrobe in the privacy of his office to “stand naked before the Lord”? Ha! Now that takes the cake. Plus, he was teaching Todd Bentley to “channel” to Heaven? Really? Bob Jones is a full fledged fruitcake. Give me a astro projection break!

            Ok…..enough. Thanks Pete, Timothy and Michael. Appreciate the kind words.

            Michael. I have no problem making my dilema public. If you would like to say something private I believe when I made an account today so you have my e-mail address.

            Thanks Everyone

          • Gate…I too came out of that abominable movement. Copeland, Hagin, all the rest. I had the books and tapes. I sent them my “tithes” and offerings. I went to their meetings. you know the rest.

            And all I can say is that I’m out and I believe with all my heart that it’s God’s leading. but the programing is still in my brain, in many ways. Every once in a while I’ll hear Copeland’s voice in my head about something he drummed in.

            They are so sneaky and deceptive. I mean, Copeland said TONS of things over the years you would only hear coming out of the mouth of a man of God.

            That’s why it was so easy for me to believe he WAS a man of God.

            But he mixes in the poison..and unless one is really spiritually mature, one does not know how to separate the good from the bad.

            I could never reconcile how one man could be of the devil and speak God’s truths the way he did. I could not comprehend how it could be mixed. But somehow it was.
            To end every program he would say “God loves you, and we love you and JESUS IS LORD.”
            To me that was the clencher. Does not the scripture say that NO MAN can say Jesus is lord except by the Holy Spirit????????????

            So how did Copeland manage it, week after week after week??

            I haven’t a clue.

            I just know I am out and I have zero intention of going back into that WOF Babylon.

          • Doug:
            I met Ken and Gloria one day after chapel at Regent. It was odd. Everyone took off after chapel and I went up front to say Hi. They stood and talked and talked and talked like they had nothing to do the rest of the day. Gloria is about as sweet as they come. They were both as skinny as you can get. Looked like a 40 day fast to me. Ken’s coat looked like a drape on him. I never realized how small they were?

            My main concern with Copeland is I am not sure his Jesus is my Jesus. He says and I quote “it was not enough that Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for you”. Nope..Jesus was tormented and smitten by demons and then satan killed Jesus spiritually and then Jesus became a “born again man” in hell and then rose. However, many WOF ministers I have spoken to in private claim they do not believe this teaching because it’s not in the Bible. Hagin in his plagiarized book “The Wonderful Name of Jesus” mentions this JSD teaching but of all the tapes and books I own of Hagin he rarely mentions it again. He never focused on it. I have personally met him and attended God knows how many of his meetings all over the US. I don’t recall ever hearing him discuss JDS. Copeland makes a huge deal out if it. Hagin is faith and healing. Copeland is about new fandangled revelation and gnosticism …oh……and how to snatch that blessing. Don’t forget that.

            Will Ken go to hell? Is he demonic? I don’t think so. Other’s will disagree. Not all his teachings are incorrect but like you say….you take 98 parts truth and stir in 2 parts lies. You gotta really know the word and be Holy Ghost filled around these folks or they’ll take ya down river pal. Hook, line and sinker.

          • .

          • Amen. that’s exactly what happened to me. I was first introduced to Copeland and WOF by brothers at church. Brothers I trusted to NOT lead me astray. I was VERY young and green in the faith.

            That introduction led me down a path that would continue for years.

            I began attending church at the Church of LESEA, South Bend Indiana, (The late Dr Lester Sumrall.) I remember the first time that Kenneth spoke there as a special guest. Man I was excited beyond words!

            But after the service ken was escorted by body guards (I assume) down a secret path to a special secret elevator and was GONE in a flash. Didn’t have time to talk with the people. So that must have been when he was more famous. When you talked with him I assume he was still getting famous?

            Well, I did some Googling and was appalled to learn that this habit of not having time for the people was something Ken and Gloria became famous for. The most heart breaking story of all involved a woman who traveled a long distance to see them, and when they left, they took off in their limo and the limo threw MUD all over this poor woman. She went for healing and left with a face full of mud.
            Is that symbolic, or what?

            Anyway, my wife was disabled…born with a genetic heart defect, she had the heart of a lamb. And she listened to Ken and Gloria for years because it gave her precious heart HOPE. Hope that she would be healed from a tormenting disease.

            Make a long story short, when I had my eyes opened to know that they were teaching heresy, I told her that we were not going to listen to them anymore under my roof.

            This literally broke her heart. My baby broke out in tears as she asked me “Then God won’t heal me?”

            Then she gave up and died.

            So that is the end result of that kind of impure teaching.

            Now I’m alone with my wife’s debts.

          • Doug and Gate,

            I fully understand the desire to spend quality time with people we perceive to be giants of the faith. I too have that desire.

            But somehow its all too easy to forget that Jesus is there, and He is willing to spend quality time with us if we repent, believe and obey Him. Jesus is willing and able to do it, but He doesn’t give Himself out CHEAPLY.

            I think we prefer to see some great man because we think its a lot easier to get our faith built up like that rather than seeking Jesus alone in isolation with our Bibles for a season of prayer and fasting.

          • Michael..

            Brother, I have ZERO desire to spend time with those “men of faith!” (I use that term lightly) I spend ALL my time with the Lord in prayer, fasting and Bible study.

          • That’s fine Doug and God bless you for that. I wasn’t meaning to suggest you wanted to be with the particular prominent people that are under discussion.

            As for me, I enjoy being with people of faith that I respect. True faith pleases God. The Bible says we should follow the faith of certain men. But not to the point of idolatry, and not men whose doctrines and practices are wrong.

          • Michael,

            I am all ALONE. There are no people of faith around here for me to even look up to. this is a dessert. I’m out of the denominational church. All my former friends are GONE. I’m ALONE. The lone ranger. the only friends..brothers I have are you guys here on the internet.
            man, I shouldn’t be crying..but I am as I type. My eyes are stinging with tears. make sit very difficult to type or read the page…

          • My friends, words fail me at what I have been reading here.
            Doug and Gate,

            My heart truly goes out to you. Thank you for your openness.
            It is true that finding a decent fellowship is nigh on impossible in some parts. Is God down and out? No way.

            I wonder if the shock realisation of what we are to be in the Lord, leads many to chose compromise over truth.
            Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it cannot bear fruit. How does that fit with many of our national leaders who daily minister from a spirit of pride or self centredness.

            Th gates of hell will not prevail over the true Church but that Church is one which will overcome through identifying with Christs suffering.
            It is this fellowship to which we are called.

            Alignment with Christ in His death and resurrection.
            This is the power of the church, yet who really knows this?

            A bruised reed shall not be broken.

            God bless,
            Pete

          • I had not any revelation of the remnant and what it is until very recently. Now I understand, and I understand that I am part of it.

            Rejected by the world’s church..accepted in the Beloved.
            What could be better?

            Yet, still, at times, the loneliness is suffocating. My heart just throbs and aches for fellowship.

          • Doug:

            My heart is stirred by your testimony. I ask God to send you a new helpmate and the Holy Spirit to balm and heal your soul.

            I have been an intense (emphasis on the word intense) studier of the word for 19 years and a real rascal to corner those in ministry who I have felt knew God and His ways in a way I did not understand. I ask question til people run away. I never stop asking and seeking.

            I don’t know everything. However, this I know.

            Of all the issues ….all the concerns…and all the questions christians have…..the 2 most frequent deal with the subject of divine healing and God’s will for their lives. Right behind that are issues like why terrible crimes are committed while God watches (child molestation…etc).

            My sister had served God all her life. Since the age of 7 she had been a christian. I was not. We were not close then.
            She played the harp and was a master musician. Untold thousands have been moved as the Holy Spirit blessed those who heard her play in church after church. Hundreds of jews in Boca Raton stood in awe as God moved in her home and they listened. To say God was with Barbara on her harp in a gross understatement. Our relationship was reconciled when I became a christian in 1990.

            However, Barbara had diabetes. After 3 major organ transplants, thousands of prayers, elders of the church praying the prayer of faith with anointed oil and so forth……on March 25, 2000, Barbara went home. I was the last to talk to her.

            Why in the world did God not intervene? Wouldn’t the world be better off with her here? Wouldn’t I be better off? She believed and had faith in healing. Sat right there with me in Hagins crusades in Miami. She asked, knocked and seeked intensely. Stood in line in so many healing lines I lost count.

            I know what the Bible says about healing. I need no primer. I am even going to state what most WOF preachers say about healing is correct. Now I have heard a few make stupid statements but overall the scriptures they present are there. I am not referring to crooks like Richard Roberts…Mr. Money for Miracles man. However, I admit, many WOF ministers make it seem like all ya gotta do is “just receive” and it’s yours. Trust me. I’ve been around Jerry Saville. All ya gotta do is “receive”. This is the part that annoys me. Jerry Saville is ….ah forget it or I’ll have to repent later.

            I don’t know Doug. She’s home now. I guarantee she would not choose to come back. She’ll wait for you to come up. Couldn’t blame her either.

            Hang on. This old world is about ready to be torched and rolled up. Yea……there’s a millenium but Jesus mentioned “world’s and ages to come”.

            Ha! It has not entered the mind of man what God has in store for those who love Him………………..whoa!

          • .

          • Brother, your post hits me in the deepest, tenderest place in my heart, and makes tears come into my eyes.

            So much I could say. It smacks at the very HEART of the WOF teachings and the reason why so many lose faith.

            With my wife, we did the same. We went to the meetings,. We had Hagin personally lay hands on her while proclaiming that she had a “New heart.”

            We spent ourselves BROKE going to Ohio for an Ernest Angley meeting. Sat in his church and he layed hands on her and saw the tears on her face as she handed him a written list of her physical ailments. He replied “I don’t see ANYTHING on this list that God can’t heal. And he prayed for my precious baby.

            Well, you know the result, from reading my post…

            I am crying right now and will have to respond more later.

          • Gate,

            Some things are not clearly revealed – like “why did this person not get healed”. The secret things belong to the Lord our God.

            Deu 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

            On the issue of child abuse while God watches, it is actually very simple. There is not enough “prayer for all men”. God’s protection for unbelievers comes because of prayer for them by Christians. We hardly pray for one another, therefore evil runs riot and kids get abused.

            One can speculate endlessly but we don’t know unless God shows us. What I will say is that the overall state of the Body of Christ affects us all. This is why the major emphasis of the Scriptures is actually on holiness and sanctification. Not just the “don’t do’s” but also the “do’s”. There are more promises on these issues than on any others. And if we truly ABIDE in Jesus and His Word in us, Jesus promises our prayers will get answered. But meeting the conditions is easier said than done.

            Our primary warfare should be against SIN, including the SIN in our own hearts. We are affected by one another more than we realise. Joshua and Caleb had to wander around in the wilderness for 40 years because of the unbelief of OTHERS. Jeremiah went to Egypt because of the sins of OTHERS. Community sin and unbelief can hinder God’s work.
            I am not suggesting that it was YOUR sins or your sister’s sins that held back the healing. I am suggesting that we live in an imperfect fallen world and the church is also somewhat disabled. Some ministers compromise also. For these reasons, prayers go unanswered at times. There has to be a revival in regards to “meeting the conditions” which actually would result in a revival of holiness, which is what the charismatic movement desperately needs at the present time.

            I would also agree with the thought that the Christians who die in the Lord are the ones who are better off. “To die is gain”. But I believe that God is more glorified when his believing people get healed and testify to God’s answers in response to faith.

          • Michael:

            Hit the nail on the head again Michael.

            I get so overwhelmed pondering all the potential factors that may hinder healing that I have just quit.

            I am actually finding it easier to surrender to the Lord and Duet. 29:29. I’m one of these “gotta know” guys. This is not helpful in some situations. I’m learning to let go.

            The great mystery of praying in tongues is that the HS can use you to pray for people and situations that you don’t even know. Wow!

          • Could it be that in order to convince the Christian public in charismatic circles that your ministry is ESPECIALLY worthy of support, you have to come up with some special revelations which you can’t get by simply hearing the Holy Spirit teach you something from the Word of God?

            Then if you can get millions of people to focus on YOU because of your controversial revelations, as they say, “Any publicity is good publicity”.

            What we need today is people who can be a living sacrifice for the Lord, humbly yet authoritatively bringing the Gospel of the Kingdom to the poor and needy, and making them obedient to God’s Word? Isn’t that what the apostle Paul was all about?

          • You’ve hit the proverbial nail on the head.

          • Gate, I have trusted in others as well. Had the Lord use a ministry 15 minutes a week for four weeks and then my wife was suddenly delivered of a sickness that kept her homebound for 6 and a half years. Then two years later, they were used to deliver us from barrenness. We now have 4 naturally conceived children. The senior pastor speaks as a humble person, but the policies and back biting show otherwise.

            We looked to the Lord for our healing. Then we shifted our trust in Him to people, then we were wounded. It is NOT their fault. Yes they had sin, but it is our sin of trusting man that caused the pain. If we had pure hearts, we could bear the sin of other’s without so much shipwreck.

            Only by drawing into God’s Word to judge ourselves, and not to condemn others with it, can we regain the balance, the hope, the joy and purpose for our own unique life calling. I understand the pain, dispondancy, and myself am like a car just pulling back onto the road again after having been sideswiped by the most ‘Godly’ of people. If our peace is to be found in the corner of the attic, then so be it, let us be ourselves to others, all that we expected them to be for us.

            Blessings and Peace,
            Timothy

  5. jesseedavis says:

    This post has a lot of good points to it. I really enjoyed reading it, thank you, tropical_guy.

    If you don’t mind I had something on my heart as I read this that I would like to add.

    Humility is lacking from believers today. If you notice, the Apostle Paul had an authority that we all have. In quite a number of verses Paul spoke under this, saying, “I will that you…” Oftentimes, he spoke as if he was God, and this is a common thing that believers today like to follow, in one way or another. If you notice, the attitude Paul had in every epistle was humility. He used this authority humbly saying only what God wanted him to and in the way God wanted him to. Jesus also did this, as authoritative as He was, He was humble and HE WAS GOD!

    Being humble means being under control. If you are humble, you will not say anything that is mean-spirited or else do any harm that is of a destructive nature. It means that you won’t exalt yourself, for example appointing yourself to be anything, including pastorship or teacher, etc, which anyone can become simply by getting a paper of credentials, with or without God’s calling. You will not call yourself “anointed” or an authority of some sort, because the fact is, if you are, they already know, and so by declaring it you would just be arrogant.

    Using a verse like “Touch not mine anointed…” is not a verse you use toward one of your own kind. A believer cannot say to another believer this verse, because every believer is anointed. It is for a situation like say a gang coming against a street evangelist who is reading from God’s Word. It is a declaration of warning to an outside force.

    • I came across this site tonight while seeking information about the Jezebel spirit.
      Different times some have used ‘the Jezebel spirit’ label against some who were confronting a wrong. Also, the ‘touch not My anointed’ was used.
      In testing myself at this time, I am searching out information as I am coming out of some difficult situations concerning pastoral abuses.

      This blog by Tropical Guy has given me pause for thought.
      I have one God, (believe that Godhead and all the fullness that is implied in this) and am not into denominational boundaries-I am a follower of Jesus, not a denomination.
      This has caused some real problems with some and at this time, had been considering that something was wrong with me, even though I was feeling betrayed & beat up verbally.

      After reading this blog, I am re-thinking talking to them. I hadn’t because of the ‘touched not’.

      My husband and I are looking for a different local church at this time and are seeking as best we can.

      Please keep us in your prayers for this has been a very difficult time and desire healing at different levels. Thank you.

      And we know that All things work together to those who love God, who are the called according to HIS purpose.

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