Sunday, does scripture make it a day of worship.

First lets look at whether God care what day we observe?¨

Isa 56:13&14 “If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the Sabbatha delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”
– “THE¨ is defined as “an absolute, genuine article¨. The verse doesn’t say “a” Sabbath day – it clearly says “the” Sabbath day; it’s very specific.
Exodus 20:8-11, 31:13-17, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
– Once God blesses, hallows, and sanctifies something it is that way forever. God doesn’t change (Malachi 3:6) nor does His law (Luke 16:17) nor does His Sabbath, nor does His baptism for that matter.(Ephesians 4:5) This verse also specifies a particular definite day; the seventh day, which we call Saturday. It starts at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday according to OT reckoning.
Any time one looks up the Sabbath in the Bible it is always described it as being on the seventh day.(Whenever a description is given, that is.) Never is the first day (Sunday) mentioned in this regard.
God is very specific on things – He leaves little to be open to interpretation. Examples would include the exact measurements He gave Noah for the building of the ark (Gen 6:15), the Ark of the Covenant and the earthly sanctuary (Exodus 25:10 thru 36:21), precisely what to do with the lambwhen Passover was established (Exodus 12:8), etc. Do you think the wall of Jericho would have toppled if the children of Israel would have marched around it only 6 times, or did it take the full 7 before the blessing was received? Did a certain someone have to wash in the Jordan river once, or twice, or the full 7 times before his blessing of healing come? God is concerned with details; He’s a God of precision; and He says what He means. He said “the” seventh day. I think He does care what day we observe.

It matters when Christ makes clear it was His day as Creator, He created the Sabbath.

What do YOU think?

comments

Comments

  1. Tim,

    If you study the issue carefully you see it was Jewish ceremonial feasts or Sabbaths which Jewish Christians would still have been observing, that Paul was talking about in Rom 14, much like he had done with circumsion when that became a issue.

    Its not that the Sabbath is put first before all things, but it is what is from Christ as the Creator, that he gave mankind out of love. His Law of Love was to keep us united in a intimate connection with him and also to show love to our fellowman. Without the Sabbath, man would have had no days off from work, no dedicated time to spend with his Maker, no rest from his labors. And let me tell you I have had bosses who wished that or tried to make us work 24/7, and it destroys you physically, spiritually as well as grinds you down mentally. The Creator knew what a special gift the Sabbath was for us, and so He put ‘remember’ when He gave it on stone.

    Now if you say it doesnt matter what day you choose, every man must decide and like Cain and Abel the choice is important, one day is as Gods asks and the other is not. So which should we choose, what comes from mans tradtion or what comes from God……..

    Think about it Tim, that is what it comes down to…

    God Bless
    Red

    • jesseedavis says:

      27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

      Hmmm, Hobie I want you to tell me something.
      Who was the one that said this?
      What exactly is Tim trying to tell you?

      If you cannot answer these two questions, please, and I ask you out of love and with deep respect, please don’t post another reply concerning this topic again.

      Colossians 2:16-17

    • Timothy Luke says:

      If I study the issue carefully here is what it says,

      Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
      Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
      Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
      Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
      Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
      Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
      Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
      Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
      Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
      Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

      I did not see the word, “ceremonial” in there. Did you? Hmmmm, wonder how it got into the conversation? I think you mean, “if I study (what other people say about it) carefully, I will find out it is talking of ceremonial . . .”

      What I see is that Seventh Day theology is not consistent with its own doctrine. Here is an excerpt from the first item googled with “seventh day adventists and Christmas”

      Answer: Seventh-day Adventists do not celebrate Christmas or other religious festivals throughout the calendar year as holy feasts established by God. The only period in time Adventists celebrate as holy is the weekly Sabbath (from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Adventists do find, however, that these holidays provide good occasions to focus on the Christian aspects, that is, the biblical message of the death and resurrection of Jesus (at Easter), and of His incarnation and coming to earth as a human being (at Christmas). It also gives valuable opportunities to speak with other people about the gospel. Also, these events are often occasions for building family fellowship and reaching out to the poor and needy.

      In essence, SDA theology enables its members to fully participate in Christmas and Easter, just not as a God “established” observance. This is what I term “wiggling bricks”. Jesus got onto the Pharisees for wiggling bricks to get out of obedience when he said,

      Mark 7:9-13 Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

      We ALL know that the 10 commandments are a thumbnail sketch. Do not commit adultery extends to the heart and to not lusting, Do not kill extends to not hating your brother in your heart. Keep the Sabbath day holy would also extend to keeping the annual holy days as well, and then to the new moons. Why? Because if you use the same logic consistently that you are using to say why the Sabbath day commandment is still binding, you would find God ordained these other things to be kept ‘forever’ as well.

      Lev 23:2-7 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. ….

      The chapter goes on to outline the annual Sabbaths of Pentecost (which the New Testament church was keeping – do you keep it today?) Festival of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Festival of Tabernacles and the Last Day of the Feast, (That Jesus is recorded as observing). Do you observe that day?

      Leviticus enjoins God’s people to keep these days saying, “It shall be a statute for ever…”

      God also says these holy days will be observed in the coming rule of Jesus Christ….

      Zec 14:16-18 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

      Isaiah 66:23 says, “And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.”

      So, according to your logic, it should be quite obvious to anyone who carefully studies the matter, that the keeping of new moons is binding today as well as the annual sabbaths. Yet, in practice, I suspect you observe Christmas and Easter, while saying you are not keeping them, and you do not keep Passover, Pentecost, etc. saying they are done away. I admit these are assumptions on my part, and I invite you to tell me if I am wrong on them. If you do keep these days, I will be truly impressed and it would give merit to the sincerity of your argument on the topic, in my opinion.

      I am simply saying, if one preaches the keeping of the sabbath day, but does not keep the fullness of the commandment, then why are they preaching it to others? You have esteemed this day and in it you find blessing. So be it. Praise the Lord! Others keep the command to take a day of rest and do so on Sunday. Now, the same Constantine who endorsed worshipping on Sunday, is the same one who endorsed Christmas.

      SDA theology, as quoted at top, states it is acceptable to “fellowship” and use Christmas day to “focus on the Christian aspects, that is, the biblical message of…His incarnation and coming to earth” Now, from previous arguments made on this board, I am accused of accepting the supremacy of Constantine and am a follower of the harlot church and thus an apostate daughter because I go to church on Sunday, while it is acceptable for an SDA member to go to church on Christmas and facilitate ‘fellowship” and focus on Christian aspects of a pagan day???

      Let’s either make the whole thing black, or the whole thing white, but do not enjoin me to meet you in the middle in the name of righteousness. What you are doing now is what Jesus clearly spoke against when He railed on the Pharisees for making the Word of God of no effect that they might hold on to their traditions. Can you accept your right to observe Christmas and Easter, (but not as a commandment), and then turn on fellow believers who go to church on Sunday and demand that if they do that, they are bowing to the edicts of Constantine and the Pope?

      Where is the integrity of faith in that scenario?

      Which brings me back to the simple explanation of Paul that is clearly written and clearly read. Do not tell me that he was writing a GENTILE church in Rome that “understood” he was speaking of Jewish ceremonial observances. He was sent away from the Jews, to the gentiles. The audience of the church at Rome was not coming out of Judaism nor its ceremonies. There may have been a minority at best – but in that instance, Paul would have been compelled to spell out his intention of it applying to the “ceremonial” aspect, so as to avoid confusion.

      Peace to you as you sort this out. It is a difficult thing to come away from a doctrine that has been promoted to ones’ self as a measure of whether one truly believes or not…

      Sincerely, Tim

      PS – Having said all this, I want to make it clear that I truly respect your love of the Lord and your love for the sabbath day and what it means to you. I am simply saying, lets not impose our faith on others, when scripture calls us not to.

  2. jesseedavis says:

    I don’t mean to rekindle the flame here, so please don’t set this off again. It is a vain argument, definitely…

    I only mean to point out something I am coming across in Scripture that relates specifically to this topic and since this was a recent topic, maybe Hobie or whomever can see this Scripture for themselves. Father, open our hearts to see the truth and knock down the walls that we build up, and please Father destroy unbelief and pride that keeps us from being genuine and keeps from moving forward. Thank you Father, I pray in Jesus’ name.

    We all know, by now at least, of Romans 14:5-6.
    5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    This is very specific right? No judging/condemning/etc. ANY fellow brothers or sisters in Christ according to days. Well check this passage out, Colossians 2:16-17
    16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    How much more specific can it get? Instead of days, Paul says holydays and then a few words later goes EVEN MORE specific and says sabbath days.

    “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God…” May these couple more verses settle the arguments people have before they even begin, and certainly draw us into unity.

  3. first of all God wants us to be holy.
    So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. 15 But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. 16 For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.” (1 pet 1:14,15).
    instead of concentrating on keeping the sabbath holy, let’s try to keep ourself holy. that’s what Lord expects from us. pls don’t change the priority.
    So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality. (coloss2:16,17)

    The people of Israel must keep the Sabbath day by observing it from generation to generation. This is a covenant obligation for all time. 17 It is a permanent sign of my covenant with the people of Israel. (exo31:16)
    Remember that you were once slaves in Egypt, but the Lord your God brought you out with his strong hand and powerful arm. That is why the Lord your God has commanded you to rest on the Sabbath day.(deu5:15).
    it is one of the laws of Moses given to the Israelites. we are not bound under the law. we r free from it.( pls read whole romans carefully). when we r born again, we r given a new life thr Christ and no more bound to the law.

    • So how did Sunday get into the picture, I hear some people say ‘I keep Sunday in honor of the Resurrection’ or they say well ‘I keep Sunday because it is a tradition to keep it’ or because ‘I see others doing it’. Does any of this change the day of the Sabbath or give reason for it, lets take a look.

      Worship is the reason for the Sabbath. It is the only day God ever gave us to worship Him on. “In vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”—Matthew 15:9. That which God gives us is the truth. We are to believe it and obey it. “Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy Word is truth.”—John 17:17. “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”—1 Timothy 2:4. “God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”—2 Thessalonians 2:13. “Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit.”—1 Peter 1:22. It is not safe to refuse obedience to the obvious truths of God’s Word. “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.” Proverbs 28:9. “If any man willeth to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it be of God.”—John 7:17, R. V.

      Our safety alone is in obedience to the clear Word of God. “Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”—Acts 20:30. “We ought to obey God rather than men.” Acts 5:29. “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”—Revelation 12:17. “Every plant which My heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted up.”—Matthew 15:13. “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen .. come out of her My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”—Revelation 18:2, 4. “Here are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”—Revelation 22:14.

      So does the ressurection change the day of the Sabbath, well the problem is that God never told you or me to keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Christ—or for any other reason. But He decidedly and repeatedly told us to keep holy the seventh day of the week. What are the greatest events in history? Creation and Calvary and the Second Advent stand out. In Gethsemane on Thursday night and on the cross on Friday morning and afternoon, our salvation hung in the balance. By sundown Friday it was all settled. The price had been paid. The salvation of those who would accept it was assured. Then came the Sabbath day of rest, and Jesus our Lord rested in the tomb.

      On Sunday morning, He rose and another work week began. Christ began working again. Mary was told not to detain Him for He had yet to ascend to heaven—which He did that day. A long trip to heaven and back again. And a visit to the fearful disciples on a road to Emmaus that evening and in an upper room where other disciples were hiding from the Jewish leaders. Frankly, the resurrection of Christ is in no way as important as is Calvary. Those who wish to abandon a clear command of God to keep the seventh day for another day, would do well to keep Friday holy in honor of Calvary.—But we keep a day holy because God says to, not because we decide to! Let us not imagine that we can abolish part of God’s Ten Commandments and substitute our own!

      Someone will say “I wish we still had a memorial of Christ’s resurrection.” Actually, Jesus gave us a memorial which combines His crucifixion and resurrection. And He commanded us to observe it.

      This definite memorial is baptism. The death and resurrection of Christ are symbolized by the ordinance of baptism, and by partaking of it we partake of that experience with Him. This double symbolism is clearly explained by Paul:

      “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin [the breaking of the law; 1 John 3:4] that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ—were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,—even so we also should [rise and] walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted [buried] together in the likeness of His death, we shall be raised also in the likeness of His resurrection. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”—Romans 6:1-6.

      Some say that they keep Sunday because it is the “great memorial of our redemption.” This is not true. The sign or symbol or memorial of our redemption is the Bible Sabbath. Our keeping of it is the sign by which all men shall know that we belong to God our Creator and that it is He, and not we ourselves, who is saving us from sin and will ultimately redeem us from this evil world. The seventh-day Sabbath is the seal of the law and the sign that He is our Creator (Exodus 31:16-17). And it is the sign that He is our Redeemer. The Bible Sabbath is the sign given by our Heavenly Father, that He is sanctifying or preparing us for eternal life. “Verily My Sabbaths ye shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.”— Exodus 31:13.

      • Hi Hobie,

        I red your post about keeping the Sabbath and the Biblical support for this practice. I agree, this commandment, the fourth of the Decalogue, has never been revoked. Why should it be, none of the others have been!? No one in their right mind would say that murder, adultery or covetousness are now condoned, so why break the Sabbath? Jesus said, “Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled” (Matthew 5:18). Earth and heaven are still here!

        On the topic of the resurrection, yes, many professing Christians use this to substantiate their claim that Sunday is the new “Sabbath.” However, there is a common misconception concerning the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

        Here is a quote from Paul Cohen, one of the writers on The Path of Truth:

        “Also, for those who think the apostles gathered together on the first day, because they think the Lord was raised on that day, there is nothing in Scripture that says this. In fact, if we take the Lord for His word, which we do, He would have been raised on the third day, which was the Sabbath, towards evening, having been in the grave His allotted time, three nights and three days (Wed. night, Thursday, Thursday night, Friday, Friday night, Saturday). He did say “As Jonah…three days and three nights, did He not? Saturday night would have been the fourth night, the beginning of the fourth day. The case is much stronger, if not foolproof, for the resurrection on the Sabbath. ”

        There is much more teaching on the Sabbath and many more matters of import for the sincere seeker of truth at:
        http://www.thepathoftruth.com

        In particular there is a writing on the keeping of the Sabbath at: http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/sabbath.htm

        Sean

        • Timothy Luke says:

          Hobie, what part of

          Rom 14:4-6 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

          don’t you understand?

          Would Paul say, don’t judge someone for murder? of course not. Would he say do not judge someone for committing adultery? Of course not. He openly judged the man in Corinth. YET, you have hardened your hearts against the true Sabbath that you may bind people to the old…

          Read here to find out about The New Testament Sabbath.

          • Ah my brother, even the Pope knows that Sunday is not the ‘true sabbath’. Scripture does not support that in any way, mans tradtions and pagan worship of the sun brought sunday into a day of worship not God. He said remember the Seventh not the First day, and Christ as Lord of the Sabbath and Creator of the Seventh day showed by His example what we should do. Study your history and see who brought sunday in as a false day of worship, it was not God…….

            If you accept Christ, then accepting the gift of what He created for mankind as the Sabbath is part of it…

          • Timothy Luke says:

            You have yet to address the words of Paul…. after all these months I still feel there is no dialog.

            Until you address the clear scriptural admonition head on that says do not judge your brother for esteeming a different day, a thousand arguments will not overthrow the clarity of this scripture.

            PS, so you are saying you and the Pope agree on something…. I thought that makes a person an apostate daughter of the great harlot….

            The cognitive dissonance in the arguments are that if I think the Pope happens to be right, then “even the Pope knows,” becomes the preface. If I personally disagree with the Pope then, “the Pope says this and if you agree you are a so and so…” Intellectually using the Pope to paint the argument is not honest. Our faith is not based on the Pope, nor is it undermined by him. My hope is built on the Word of God – independent of the failures of man in the application of it.

          • warrior daughter says:

            Going around and around in a circle and getting nowhere when it comes to those who put Sabbath first…

            23 Thus says the LORD:

            “ Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
            Let not the mighty man glory in his might,
            Nor let the rich man glory in his riches;
            24 But let him who glories glory in this,
            That he understands and knows Me,
            That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth.
            For in these I delight,” says the LORD.

            Jeremiah 9:23,24

  4. Anonymous says:

    pray for me to know jesus as the true son of god,and for deliverance from islam

    • Timothy Luke says:

      “Father, please give my friend the POWER of your Holy Spirit to deliver him or her from the power of Islam. I break the power of fear of reprisal in Jesus’ name. I pray for boldness to stand firm as they come to you for the salvation that is only found through Jesus Christ our Lord. Send strong believers for them to fellowship with and grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. In Jesus’ name, amen.yureyo

  5. Anonymous says:

    i am a muslim crying out to jesus the true saviour

    • Anurekha says:

      By writing that “I am a Muslim crying out to Jesus the true savior. Pray for me to know Jesus as the true son of God, and for deliverance from Islam.” You have already confirmed your faith in Jesus Christ. Because without the conviction of Holy Spirit, you would have never known that you were walking in the wrong path and Jesus alone can save you as He is the true Savior and Son of God. And, there is nothing like deliverance from Islam or Hinduism, there is only deliverance from sin because either you are a Christian or a Muslim you can have other idols in life like worldly things that leads you to sin and become a barrier between you and God. Once you start having faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and begin to follow Him, all other walls of separation will fall by itself. There is nothing to fear because perfect love of Christ casts out all fear and you will be filled with joy. Isn’t it a blessing that you have already known Jesus? Hold on, the steps ahead will not be as difficult as the one you had overcome. Just believe in Him, who is in control of our life’s.

      I will pray for you and your deliverance.

    • MelodyCat says:

      I don’t know your name or circumstances but the Lord knows everything and will hear my prayer regardless.

      Dear Heavenly Father I pray for this Muslim that you will reveal to them divinely your truth about Jesus your son who died on the Cross so we might have Eternal Life. Praying for their salvation and assurance of their deliverance from Isalm. In Jesus Name Amen

      JN 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
  6. jesseedavis says:

    However, this summer I’ve met and have been working with a guy from Virginia. His name is Matt and he observes the Sabbath as well as the whole Torah. Now, all summer the other staff has messed with him for this. All summer my line of thought towards him and what he does and believes is this:

    Matt believes in following the Torah, and it isn’t in such a way that replaces Christ by his own works. He does all of this for the Lord. He is very faithful to it, even when being made fun of and messed with by even other Christians. He does not do it in any way that offends others, whether it is those who cook the food or those who are eating around him, neither is he burdened by anyone else eating pork, etc. or doing/not doing other things. He in no way has tried to push this on others nor implied in any way that we should do it. Therefore, why bother him about it?

    Last night I was able to discuss for a few hours the Torah and other things and I noticed that he is ignorant to many connections between Scripture as it pertains to things in his lifestyle, however I overlooked these, because the whole point of the discussion was not to poke holes in his beliefs nor cause him to doubt in any way or in any sense lead him into sin. I sincerely wanted to know what his view on things were as did he with me.

    Having said all this, I just want to put this into the forum as an outsider looking in. Hobie what I see you are doing is pushing a commandment on someone that is unnecessary. Regardless of your intention, what you are ultimately doing is not yours to do, but God. At the same time, you are ignoring the views of the others in the discussion which is also causing problems. Please remember this, as important or unimportant as observing the Sabbath is, it is not something that should cause someone to stumble. Please, I pray you, read and reread these next words as they are more important than anything I have written so far and by far more important than any argument for or against observing the Sabbath.

    Romans 14
    1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
    2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
    3Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
    4Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
    5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
    7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
    8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
    9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
    10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
    11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
    12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
    14I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
    15But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
    16Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
    17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
    18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
    19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
    20For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
    21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
    22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
    23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

    Father, open all of our eyes to the importance of our hearts and souls and spirits to You. Let us all just realize that there is no law worth obeying at the cost of sending another man into condemnation. Teach us what it truly means to love one another, to count everything as loss and to see the importance of seeking Your face. Father show Hobie what You see concerning these things, and concerning others. Let him not judge anyone over what we do or do not do for You, because what we do, we do for You and what we don’t do, we don’t do it for You. Father, open the eyes of all those that may stumble upon these pages and read any part of it. I pray that in Your sovereignty, no one is misled and that no one is led into sin by the words written by any of us. Bless Your Word and let the reading of It touch us all and bring us closer to You. Enlighten us as to what things mean and remind us of the things that we may have forgotten in order to understand what is said on these pages and in Your Word. Thank You Father for everything contained on these pages and for this website. Thank You Father for these men and women! In the Name of Jesus Christ , let it be done according to Your will.

    • I can see you speak from the heart, and the Spirit moves you. You can see that mans words mean nothing if they come from mans wisdom, and it is the Holy Spirit that opens eyes and lets man see what is Gods truth and hear His words of Life. I condemn no one, I share Gods truth and each man must decide as the Spirit works on their hearts and minds, that is what loving one another means. Helping your brother and sister as they travel the narrow path to the kingdom of God and eternal life.

      We as Christians are to accept our brothers and sisters at whatever point they are in their spiritual journey towards the light. But what are we to do when we see them heading down the wide road that leads to darkness, saying that sin (which is transgression of Gods Law) doesnt matter, and fully knowing what they are doing. I see many brothers or sisters fall to temptation but like the woman caught in adultery they hear the words of Christ ‘go and sin no more’ and repent and confess their sins, they grow and come closer to Christ and continue toward the light, and I rejoice.

      But what do you do when you see your brother or sister who dont just fall into temptation but grab the sin and then try to justify it, and continue to find reasons for it to expand on the sin and allow it to envenlope their hearts and mind. So the question each one has to ask themselves, am I going towards the light and following God, growing in His love when I transgress Gods Law and justify my actions with mans traditions and ideas?

      • Timothy Luke says:

        This, for all who will read, is a clear example of how you are breaking the admonition of scripture. You say you are not judging, but your heart has judged.

        “But what are we to do when we see them heading down the wide road that leads to darkness, saying that sin (which is transgression of Gods Law) doesnt matter, and fully knowing what they are doing.”

        No one here has said “sin doesn’t matter”. Yet, you have imputed that to people like myself who go to church on Sunday. Your paradigm, or view, is flawed.

        I have responded to the points you have brought out. But let me ask that you look at it from my vantage for a moment…

        My wife was sick and homebound for nearly 7 years with chronic illness and disease. This while we ‘kept the sabbath.” We prayed to God, our church prayed. Church members did AMAZING things to accomodate us. Yet our pastors had lost heart to pray for healing. They did not know God’s will on the matter.

        We had a Christian fellowship letter that went out freely to hundreds. Some of them asked about Pleasant Valley Church out in the backwoods of Georgia. We were living in Western New York state at the time. I released my wife to call them and get information on their ministry because a number of readers were asking what we thought to fhem. Long story short, within 4 and a half weeks the Lord personally visited my wife and spoke “Rise and walk.” He healed her on Sunday of all days and with that message was the understanding she was to go to church THAT NIGHT. The Lord met her in that Full Gospel church and she was stronger coming out than she was going in.

        The Lord could not use a sabbath keeping church to heal my wife. Why not? Because they did not believe!!! Now, my friend. Read Hebrews chapter 4 again for the first time and you will see the Israelites could not enter into God’s rest because of UNbelief. They ‘kept the sabbath’ under Moses. It was the unbelief that doomed even their ‘sabbath keeping’ to failure.

        NOW, the question is this. Are you really keeping the sabbath day if you are bound in the sins of the heart and the diseases that stem from them? Are you really laying your burdens down on the sabbath if in your heart you are burdened with guilt, shame, condemnation and are serving strongholds of lust and pornography (like a fellow window cleaner I know with “the 7th day is the Sabbath” bumper stickers)? Are you free brother Hobie? Do you have addictive strongholds? A broken heart? Fears?

        If we are not holy in our heart, can we truly keep a day holy? No, because our own uncleanness defiles the day. That is the nature of holiness.

        It is the walk of sanctification of spirit, soul and body that brings us rest. When we have true rest, we have it 7 days a week. When we have no rest, even though we take a day to go to church, we still have not rested in the spirit. “God IS spirit, and He desires those who worship Him to worship in spirit and in truth.” “God looks not on the outward appearance, as a man, but God looks upon the heart.”

        No one here has advocated breaking the sabbath command. You simply are so focused on a physical day that you are unable to see the great spiritual panorama the grand commandment is truly fulfilled in. Do not fear for our salvation. I will assure you my wife and I have had much deliverance and healing from the hand of the Lord, not Satan. We have received healing as we learned to love our neighbor as ourself – from the heart. The work of sanctification from the sins of the heart have set us free from the bondage of spirit, soul and body.

        We are at rest with who we are in Christ now, where in keeping a day we were held in bondage to an understanding that bore not the fruit of sanctification, but of precisely what you are demonstrating. The preoccupation with keeping a day ‘holy’ has left millions unholy as they seek to evangelize the church and world on a day. In this, you have transgressed the command to allow each person to esteem whatever day they are convicted of. You are seeking to overthrow the faith of some who go to church on Sunday and accusing them of following Popes and emperors.

        Why would I want to stop going to my Holy Spirit filled church where people love one another and praise the Lord with weeping and uplifted hands and hearts? Why would I forsake a church where my brothers and sisters confess their faults to one another and are healed? And why for all reasons, would I forsake all that to go to a local 7th day church that is DRY as a BONE?! I have visited and considered joining my local SDA church, but it is spiritually dead.

        I am not stuck on a day, one way or the other. I now am free to have the mind of Christ, and not look at a fellow Christian as spiritually inferior because they worship on a particular day. I do not condemn you for the day you keep, but I do ask that you consider not condemning others for the day they worship the Lord. Going to church on Saturday is not a sin. Judging someone for going on Sunday is. In this, I am biblically accurate in my thinking, where before I simply wasn’t.

        Grace to you my brother. May the Lord grant you eyes to see and ears to hear. I wish you had the blessings I now enjoy. I rejoiced in the sabbath in the days I kept it, but I rejoice even more for what I have now. The water is warm, I invite you to look into receiving the baptism of the holy spirit that you may walk in the fullness of what God has for His church today.

        Tim

        • Tim,

          You are free to go on any day you want, but if the scriptures clearly declares one thing and not just a vauge verse but directly and man does the other, if we come to a brother and show him it, is it condeming or judging. You must let Gods Word speak, dont muzzle those who bring what it constantly says on the Commandments to you, declaring he is a ‘acuser of the brethren’ coming to condemn. Look at what scripture says, what Christ says, and what has been since Creation, the Sabbath is in the Commandments and I just bring you what has been since God rested and made it holy and sanctified it…

          Matthew 19:17
          “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

          Now you seem to be infering that man didnt changed the Sabbath to their own day of tradition but yet you can see who lays claim to the change and what other churches say:

          QUESTION BOX by Father Conway, P. 179:
          “What Bible authority is there for changing the sabbath from the seventh to the first day of the week?
          “Who gave the Pope authority to change a command of God?
          ANSWER: “If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing Saturday … but Catholics learn what to believe and do from the Catholic Church WHICH MADE SUNDAY THE DAY OF REST.”

          PLAIN TALK ABOUT PROTESTANTS, P. 213: “It is worth while to remember that this observance of Sunday, in which after all, the only Protestant worship consists’ not only has no foundation in the Bible, but is in flagrant contradiction to its letter, which commands rest on the Sabbath, which IS SATURDAY. It was the CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHICH HAS TRANSFERRED THIS REST TO SUNIDIAY. Thus the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is a homage they pay in spite of themselves, to the AUTHORITY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.”

          KANSAS CITY CATHOLIC, Feb. 9, 1893: “The Catholic Church by virtue of her divine mission, CHANGED THE DAY FROM SATURDAY TO SUNDAY.”
          Protestants who claim that they do take the Bible, should give proof for their doctrines from its pages.

          EDIFYIING INSTRUCTION IN THE CATECHISM, by K. A. Dachel, pp 23, 24,(Lutheran):
          “When God gave the third (the Lutherans did not change their catechisms either and the second commandment is left out as in the Catholic Catechism) commandment … he designated definitely the seventh day, which already had been sanctified by Him at creation, as this rest day. And as Christ says that He had not come to destroy the law (Matt. 5:17) so he has also in the words’ of His last prophetic speech (Matt. 24:’20) which has reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, expressly emphasized the sabbath, or Saturday as the still valid rest day, by saying: “Pray that your flight toe not on the sabbath.” For this’ reason many godly Christians have solemnly upbraided the Christian church for keeping Sunday instead of Saturday; The church can have no right to change God’s commandment, and, if in the catechism the whole commandment had been, embodied verbatim in its entire wording from Exodus 20:8-11 then we should still keep the Saturday holy, and not the Sunday.”

          “Is there any command in the New Testament to change the day of weekly rest from Saturday to Sunday?- None.” ( Manual of Christian Doctrine -( Protestant Episcopal ) page 127 )……..

          It is quite clear that however rigidly or devoutly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath … The Sabbath was founded on a specific, divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday. There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday.” ( Dr R W Dale ( Congregationalist ) in his book Ten Commandments, page 127-129 )

          “The observance of the Lord’s Day ( Sunday ) is founded, not on any command of God, but on the authority of the Church.” ( Augsburg Confession of Faith ( Lutheran ))

          “Where are we told in Scripture to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day … The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but the church has enjoined it.” ( Rev. Isaac Williams ( Church of England ) in his Plain sermons on the Catechism. Volume 1, pp. 334-336 ) …..

          “There was and is a command to keep holy the Sabbath day: but the Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties, privileges and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask: Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.” ( Dr. Edward T Hiscox, author of the Baptist Manual )…”

  7. Anurekha says:

    I’m just wondering behind all this; is someone preaching SDA doctrines here? I think everything that grabs someone’s attention either positively or negatively raises eagerness in a person to know more about it, so finally after this topic maybe someone will search for SDA websites, if I’m not wrong…

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Hi Anurekha,

      Hobie has not identified himself as an SDA member, though some of his sources are. Personally, I do not mind discussion of issues I may personally disagree with, as long as they are discussions and not monologues. We are working that issue out as we go here.

      There are many things posted here that we do not block for the sake of hearing and shedding God’s Word on them. Anyone is free to examine SDA doctrine for themselves, but we are not in agreement with SDA doctrine. The sabbath discussion will speak for itself. It comes down to an issue of regarding days and not judging one another for keeping or not keeping them. Paul instructed the church at Corinth to judge sin in its midst, yet says to not judge days – signifying quite clearly to me that days are not a sin issue, therefore not a breaking of the commandments given the New Testament church.

      The bottom line is we are not to judge Hobie for the day he is convicted of, and he is not to judge us for any day we may be convicted of. If we can do that, we will have obeyed the commandment to love one another. Anyone who wants to know my position can read New Testament Sabbath Keeping. I would note that I have not replied to a number of posts on this subject because I have not had time to read them. The ones I have commented on are the ones I have reviewed.

      I would rather judge the topic based upon its merits, than on what denomination adheres to it.

      Blessings to you sister, in Jesus’ name!

      • Anurekha says:

        Sorry brother, but I am not convicting anyone, I mean to say that as we are having a very lengthy discussion on this topic and every discussion should have a justifiable ending, not a situation in which there is no conclusion. My opinion on Sabbath is same like yours, but then I don’t see anything wrong with Hobie’s views on Sabbath as well, except the fact that He asserts more on Commandments then on Salvation by Faith and Grace alone and his comments reminds me of many SDA related websites write-ups on Sabbath keeping.

  8. My brothers, I have to ask then, does man have the power to change Gods laws, that is what is being said by the Pope, who should we obey man or God.

    Acts 5:29
    29Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

    Jesus never changed the Bible Sabbath to Sunday. He did not do it during His earthly life, as recorded in the four Gospels, and He did not do it at any other time. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because as Creator He made it. He told us the Sabbath was not made for a certain race, but for man, thats you and me. Gods Law cannot be changed by man, no matter what argument of infallibility they say they have.

    Matthew 5:19
    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Hobie,

      You ask a lot of questions that are not central to the topic. It is like me asking, “have you stopped beating your wife yet?” The question makes the person being questioned look bad, but the question is based on a false premise to begin with.

      No one on here has said that man has the right to change God’s laws. Your paradigm says that is what is going on … and that is precisely what proves to me your paradigm is incorrect. Your paradigm does not square with what is clearly stated,

      Romans 14:4-6 “Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.”

      You full well know the Holy Days are not kept because they are precisely what the Sabbath day is. A shadow. When the reality comes, the shadow is no longer noteworthy. You see my shadow and are excited because we’ve never met and have had great correspondence and I am bringing a treasure for you with me. When I walk around the corner of the building, do you rush up and embrace my shadow? That would be silly. The shadow directs our attention until that which is important appears.

      Col 2:14-17 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

      Here my brother, I am under strict orders from Paul to not let any man judge me in respect of sabbath days. Now, I know what you will respond, because I used to respond that way….”don’t let any man judge me of being a legalist because I keep the sabbath day.” But your own beliefs contradict you. You have stated the annual holy days are no longer in effect and you have given correct reasons why. Yet, can you not see that the sabbath days are lumped in with the holydays? They are treated as being under the same judgment. Paul is writing to a church that is either keeping all these things, or forsaking all these things. You have forsaken the holydays, thereby proving the sabbath is not to be kept either.

      As I mentioned before, when you see where Paul and Jesus went to synagogue on the sabbath, it was “as his CUSTOM was.” Their behavior was not used to validate a commandment, but to explain a personal choice they had made. Otherwise it would be “according to the commandment.” By attributing going to ‘church’ on the seventh day as a custom, it diminishes any legal ramification. If it were so important, God would enhance and not diminish the importance to be taken from their church attendance.

      Now, on to Matthew 5:19.

      Matthew 5:18-22 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

      The Sabbath was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Do you keep the sabbath day according to the law? God forbid. You and I both know that you do not. The law stoned a man for gathering wood on the sabbath. IF that law is untouched, then what is your condemning vice on the sabbath day? Have you not had to go to the grocery store and pick up something you should have had by Friday sunset? Have you ever eaten at a restaurant and paid someone else to work on the Sabbath? If so, you did not let your maidservant rest on the Sabbath, you encouraged her employer to work her the next Sabbath as well.

      If your understanding of ‘one jot or title shall in no wise pass from the law’ is correct regarding the sabbath day, it is correct regarding the level of work prohibited on the sabbath day. So, either the sabbath day is in force in its entirety, and you do not even keep it seriously, though your conscience tells you to, OR, the sabbath day is as meaningless as a day as any other.

      I have to ask you. How do you want to teach the sabbath?

      • I am sorry Tim, but scriptures constantly reinforces the purpose and importance of the Sabbath, now the other ceremonial ordinances and laws that pointed to Christ were done away with at the Cross, but the Moral Law, Gods Commandments, His Law of love remains. Otherwise we would be free to steal, murder, commit adultery or even worship idols and graven images, which I think you would agree is transgression of Gods Law. Now I am not perfect and yes I observe the Sabbath and let others within my gates rest, but we come together on the Sabbath with delight and joy, it comes from the heart, and we share love with one another and fellowship and come closer to God as the Holy Spirit brings us closer and strengthens our understanding of Gods truth. Anyone that knows me, knows that no law could force me observe a day, but love could…..

        So you see why I get such emotion and enthusiasm to share it with others.
        Now, what happens when you set aside Gods Law and try to go by tradition of man or ideas from mans logic? You get confusion or outright rejection of what Gods Word teaches. Here are some of mans substitutes that get put forward:

        1-There is no day set aside
        2-Any day is ok
        3-Christ is the day
        4-Sunday is the day because of the ressurection or because of mans tradition.

        God’s word does not have any of this, they all lead to confusion or cannot be supported by scripture. Now if you say that mans traditions or man can change God’s Law then you have set aside the Bible and are in my opinion on dangerous ground.

        As for who says they have the power to change Gods Law, you should know that answer..

        The Church made a sacred day of Sunday … largely because it was the weekly festival of the sun; for it was a definite Christian policy to take over the pagan festivals endeared to the people by tradition, and to give them a Christian significance.
        Source: Arthur Weigall, The Paganism in Our Christianity, p. 145. Copyright 1928 by G. p. Putnam’s Sons, New York.

        Pope Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.)
        Decrees the Transfer of Sabbath Rest to Sunday:

        Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is,[the day] of the Sun,[the day] of the Moon,[the day] of Mars,[the day] of Mercury,[the day] of Jupiter,[the day] of Venus,[the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, “Let there be light:; on the second, “Let there be a firmament”; on the third, “Let the earth bring forth verdure”; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law,[to call] the first feria the “Lord’s day,” because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord’s day [Sunday]…

        Note particularly, he says that “the same pope [Sylvester I] decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord’s day [Sunday].”8 According to this statement, he was the first bishop to introduce the idea that the divinely appointed rest of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the first day of the week. This is significant, especially in view of the fact that it was during Sylvester’s pontificate that the emperor of Rome [Constantine] issued the first civil laws compelling men to rest from secular labor on Sunday…6 Rabanus Maurus, Liber de Computo (A book Concerning Computation), Chap. XXVII (“Concerning Festivals”), as translated by the writer from the Latin text in Migne’s Patrologia Latina, Vol. CVII, col. 682….

        Church decrees Sunday sacredness-

        Council of Laodicea (343-381?)
        [p. 310] Can. 16.“On Saturday [Greek sabbaton,“the Sabbath”] the Gospels and other portions of the Scripture shall be read aloud.”…
        [p. 316] Can. 29.“Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out [Greek anathema] from Christ.”…
        [p. 320] Can. 49.“During Lent, the bread shall not be offered, except on Saturday and Sunday.”…
        Can. 51.“During Lent, no feast of the martyrs shall be celebrated, but the holy martyrs shall be commemorated on the Saturdays and Sundays of Lent.”
        Source: Charles Joseph Hefele, A History of the Christian Councils, Vol. 2, trans. and ed. by H. N. Oxenham (Edinburgh: T. and T. Clark, 1896), pp. 310, 316, 320.

        Councils of the Church enforce Sunday observance.
        [p. 105] The Council of Orleans (538), while protesting [p. 106] against an excessive Sabbatarianism, forbade all field work under pain of censure; and the Council of Macon (585) laid down that the Lord’s Day ‘is the day of perpetual rest, which is suggested to us by the type of the seventh day in the law and the prophets,’ and ordered a complete cessation of all kinds of business. How far the movement had gone by the end of the 6th cent. is shown by a letter of Gregory the Great (pope 590–604) protesting against the prohibition of baths on Sunday.
        Source: M. G. Glazebrook,“Sunday,” in James Hastings, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (New York: Scribner, 1928), Vol. 12, pp. 105, 106….”

  9. Anonymous says:

    Romans chapter 14

  10. Timothy Luke says:

    Hobie,

    Yesterday I made a request as a friend and a brother. I will repost it here….

    What I see happening here is the unintentional overwhelming of the forums with information to the point of obscuring other conversations and prayer requests. There is an ocean of information on the internet on why or why not keep the Sabbath day. Please forgive me, but I feel exasperated. I feel as though and I am left to do original work to properly respond to copious amounts that have been cut and pasted . This is the equivalent of wearing out a puppy by throwing sticks and having it run its little legs off while we sit there and rest. This leaves me at a time deficit to thoughtfully respond to some personal posts here where people are seeking assistance.

    As a brother and friend, I suggest that we let the discussion stand as is. I invite you to blog your further studies and of course give personal replies to inquires on the forums. Entire Comment here.

    This morning as Michael and I were praying, I saw 5 new posts go up. Privately I have written to you Hobie with the generous proposition that you post only one or two items a day so as not to push prayer requests and other topics off the “recent comments” menu bar and have them obscured. Publicly and privately I have encouraged you to move your sabbath discussion into a blog form rather than overrun the forums with all your info.

    I now have a person who is not walking in the basic precepts of love and patience presuming to teach me about how I can fulfill God’s Law of Love by keeping the Sabbath Day. When I respond to your posts brother, I do not get a personal response, but a further avalanche of information. This is not love and it is simply not acceptable.

    Perhaps some are not aware that this site is a ministry outreach that is not a platform for people to jump up, grab the microphone so to speak, and command the attention of all with copious amounts of information while refusing to engage in a direct dialog with a moderator. For the record.It is not. I thank all those who have borne with patience the spiritual spamming on the topic of the Sabbath day.

    Given the circumstance, I am closing further discussion on this topic. If after all that has been said, the point is not made, I would say the point is unmakeable. Hobie, you are welcome to join in on other topics, but no more cutting and pasting information. I pray you have understanding in this and that you are able to keep your heart from going into rejection and strife. If this warning is ignored I will consider removing the topic in its entirety until such time as a person can bring it forward with more patience and consideration for all.

    My reply “Re: Sabbath Questions” has remained in the “recent comments” as I write, so I am assuming you read it. If for some reason you missed the warning, forgive me. There is so much the Lord is doing on Christian-faith.com. I pray you will have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to receive it brother.

    Sincerely,
    Tim

    • Judahson says:

      Good form Tim,… bravo.

      How sad and tedious are the words and works of those who do not yet understand the ‘simplicity that is in Christ’;….. for He has become, and ‘IS’ our Sabbath rest!

      The written requirements of the law(religious ritual)have been FULLFILLED in His death and resurrection.

      EVERY day,… EVERY hour,… EVERY minute and EVERY second ARE HOLY to those who are truly in Christ.

      • Timothy Luke says:

        I do not wish to run Hobie down. He has a passion for his topic. Its just we need to fit it in with the purpose of Christian-faith.com. Blessings to you! Pray for him. It is not easy to receive a rebuke openly. In the end, he still has much published here, so hopefully that will ease any sting.

        • Judahson says:

          Nor my intention either, my discerning brother. But I have also never known the Lord to pull His punches(smiles),…the truth is the truth,…. and I had only briefly skimed through some of Hobie’s words above, when I heard the Lord speak this single word into my spirit;… “wranglings”.

          Blessings Tim,…
          And again,… good form!
          You will do well.

    • Anonymous says:

      Tim,

      Sorry, I didnt see a warning. Now as to the postings I have posted in many forums and this is the first time I have ever been accused of spamming. I ask you in a humble manner, if I slow down the responses and await others posting can you allow discussion on the topic. I do not want it to appear that this forum does not allow Gods truth to be discussed or restricts it, especially in a important issue such as Gods Law and the Sabbath. Let me know a manner in which the discussion can continue, as I think they should be allowed to be heard and every member allow the Holy Spirits guidance accordingly.

      Thanks my brother,
      Hobie

      • Timothy Luke says:

        Hobie,

        If the forums you are familiar with are sabbath keeper forums, I am sure they would welcome the abundant flow of information on the topic. Ours is more broad based and we welcome discussion of the topic. I do not sense a discussion going on, I sense an information campaign. That you could post so much, without having read my responses to your earlier posts, demonstrates to me that we have not had a discussion.

        In all candor, we have not had a set of guidelines posted for our users to convey our expectations and limitations. We are working on that to avoid further confusion. Please accept my apologies on that and lets let the conversation rest for a week while we get that groundwork established.

        Thanks,
        Tim

        • Anonymous says:

          Tim,

          What about the other theological issues such as the ‘once saved always save’ , the state of the dead, hell and hades, ect.. what are the limitations in discussing them, or starting a thread. Can we continue with other doctrines and beliefs?

          Hobie

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Hobie,

            Check out the discussion boards on these topics and join in. Limit cut and pasting of other’s materials to a paragraph or less in a post and share original thought and observation, until we get our forum etiquette worked out. I ask that all threads be started with discussion in mind. This is a discussion board and not a pulpit, so the tone may be different from what you are used to. The topics you mentioned you will find interesting dialogs in and I believe you will find people who agree with your understanding of those as well.

            Tim

    • My Brother Tim,

      I am sorry I did not see the request and and apologize but I still cant find it in the thread with the link you gave, but I understand the situation, so will try to post accordingly. The problem you will find though is that Gods truth cannot be taken apart, the Commandments are the basis of Gods love, it teaches us how to love God and our fellow man. Once you start rejecting one, what is to stop man from justifying rejecting another, then more, this is how the early church drifted into idoltry, works as a means of salvation, and replacing the Sabbath with a day of mans tradition. Scripture lays out clearly what the Commandments are, and Christ tells us clearly what we are to do.

      Now man comes along and teaches us they can change what God has set and make their own day and reject Gods…
      You have the Catholic Church saying they changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and the Pope saying you have to worship on Sunday yet scripture says nothing on it. Yet many knowingly or unknowing continue to follow the authority of the Catholic Church which continues to press for its day.

      Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday.
      Well this really makes you wonder how they can push this as there is no scriptural basis for them to refer to in encouraging Sunday worship..

      “Pope Benedict XVI says your life depends upon worshiping on Sunday.

      “Sine dominico non possumus!” “Without Sunday [worship] we cannot live!” Pope Benedict xvi declared during a mass .. at St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna.

      Speaking on the final day of his three-day visit to Austria, the German pope voiced a strong call for Christians to revive Sunday keeping as an all-important religious practice.

      “Give the soul its Sunday, give Sunday its soul,” he chanted before a rain-soaked crowd of 40,000.

      Benedict said that Sunday, which he stated has its origin as “the day of the dawning of creation,” was “also the church’s weekly feast of creation.”
      Warning against the evils of allowing Sunday to become just a part of the weekend, the pope said people needed to have a spiritual focus during the first day of the week, or else leisure time would just become wasted time.

      Sunday worship, he warned, was not just a “precept” to be casually adhered to, but a “necessity” for all people……”
      http://www.zenit.org/article-20457?l=english

      Now pay attention to this coming from the Pope….”Pope Benedic… called on Catholics to keep the Sabbath a day set aside for reflection on their faith and the fate of the planet and not surrender it to “the mad rush of the modern world”…….

      http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL0965805820070909?pageNumber=1

      http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=1808.0.77.0

      Christ spoke on this while on earth..
      Matthew 15:9
      But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

      And even after Christs death on the Cross we see the Sabbath remained as a Commandment..
      Luke 23:56
      And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

      And if we say we truly love and follow Christ then why do we reject what he tells us..
      John 14:15
      If ye love me, keep my commandments.

      Now if we accept Christ and allow the mind of Christ to manifest within us, we must be in harmony with his truth.
      1 John 2:4
      He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

      The bible speaks of only one sabbath, the seventh day, and it is called The Lord’s Sabbath. Sunday the first day is not the day that God set aside as a holy day. “Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; Ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings” (Leviticus 23:3). There was no Christian or Jew when God instituted his sabbath. “And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested…” (Genesis 2:3). Adam and Eve (created on the sixth day) were the only people around when God rested on the seventh day.

      God intends for man to follow the example he set by honoring the seventh day. Therefore, he included it in the stone tablets his “ten commandments.” Observing the sabbath is just as important as “thou shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not steal” (Exodus 20:13,15). You cannot delete, change, or choose to obey one law over another. “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all” (James 2:10).

      So who do we follow, man and his traditions, or Christ who is our example, and He says to keep the Commandments. Not only was Jesus a perfect example in observing the weekly seventh-day Sabbath, but all His disciples followed the same pattern after Jesus had gone back to heaven. Yet no intimation of any change of the day is made. The apostle Paul, who wrote pages of counsel about lesser issues of Jewish and Gentile conflicts, had not one word to say about any controversy over the day of worship. Circumcision, foods offered to idols, and other Jewish customs were readily challenged by early Gentile Christians in the church, but the weightier matter of weekly worship never was an issue. Why? For the simple reason that no change was made from the historic seventh day of Old Testament times, and from creation itself. Had there been a switch from the Sabbath to the first day of the week, you can be sure the controversy would have been more explosive than any other to those Jewish Christians.

      Lets look at what historians say…

      “Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D.”–“Chamber’s Encyclopedia,” article, “Sabbath.”

      Here is the first Sunday Law in history, a legal enactment by Constantine 1 (reigned 306-331): “On the Venerable Day of the Sun [“venerabili die Solis”–the sacred day of the Sun] let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost–Given the 7th day of March,[A.D. 321], Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time.”–The First Sunday Law of Constantine 1, in “Codex Justinianus,” lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Phillip Schaff “History of the Christian Church,” Vol. 3, p. 380.

      “This [Constantine’s Sunday decree of March, 321] is the ‘parent’ Sunday law making it a day of rest and release from labor. For from that time to the present there have been decrees about the observance of Sunday which have profoundly influenced European and American society. When the Church became a part of State under the Christian emperors, Sunday observance was enforced by civil statutes, and later when the Empire was past, the Church, in the hands of the papacy, enforced it by ecclesiastical and also by civil enactments.”–Walter W. Hyde, “Paganism to Christianity in the Roman Empire,” 1946, p. 261.
      “Constantine’s decree marked the beginning of a long, though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest.”– Vincent J. Kelly, “Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations,” 1943, p. 29.

      “Constantine labored at this time untiringly to unite the worshipers of the old and the new into one religion. All his laws and contrivances are aimed at promoting this amalgamation of religions. He would by all lawful and peaceable means melt together a purified heathenism and a moderated Christianity … Of all his blending and melting together of Christianity and heathenism, none is more easy to see through than this making of his Sunday law: The Christians worshiped their Christ, the heathen their Sun-god …[so they should now be combined.”–H.G. Heggtveit, “illustreret Kirkehistorie,” 1895, p. 202.

      “If every Sunday is to be observed joyfully by the Christians on account of the resurrection, then every Sabbath on account of the burial is to be regarded in execration [cursing] of the Jews.”–Pope Sylvester, quoted by S.R.E. Humbert, “Adversus Graecorum Calumnias,” in J.P. Migne, “Patrologie,” p. 143.[Sylvester (A.D. 314-337) was the pope at the time Constantine 1 was Emperor.]

      “All things whatsoever that were prescribed for the [bible] Sabbath, we have transferred them to the Lord’s day, as being more authoritative and more highly regarded and first in rank, and more honorable than the Jewish Sabbath.”–Bishop Eusebius, quoted in J.P. Migne, “Patrologie,” p. 23, 1169-1172.[Eusebius of Caesarea was a high-ranking Catholic leader during Constantine’s lifetime.]

      These Gentile Christians of Rome and Alexandria began calling the first day of the week ‘the Lord’s day.’ This was not difficult for the pagans of the Roman Empire who were steeped in sun worship to accept, because they [the pagans] referred to their sun-god as their ‘Lord.’ “–EM. Chalmers, “How Sunday Came Into the Christian Church,” p. 3.

      The following statement was made 100 years after Constantine’s Sunday Law was passed: “Although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”–Socrates Scholasticus, quoted in “Ecclesiastical History,” Book 5, chap. 22.[Written shortly after A.D. 439.]

      “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.”–Hermias Sozomen, quoted in “Ecclesiastical History,” vii, 19, in “A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,” 2nd Series, Vol. 2, p. 390.[Written soon after AD. 415.]

      “Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church, but with a rigor and solemnity gradually diminishing until it was wholly discontinued.”–Lyman Coleman, “Ancient Christianity Exemplified” chap. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.

      “Constantine’s [five Sunday Law] decrees marked the beginning of a long though intermittent series of imperial decrees in support of Sunday rest.”–“A History of the Councils of the Church,” Vol. 2, p. 316.

      “What began, however, as a pagan ordinance, ended as a Christian regulation; and a long series of imperial decrees, during the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries, enjoined with increasing stringency abstinence from labor on Sunday.”–Huttan Webster, “Rest Days,” pp. 122-123, 210.

      Sunday comes from mans traditions not from God, the scriptures clearly bear this out, those who have a ear need to hear, and open their eyes and see what the Holy Spirit shows them in Gods word as the place Christ has prepared in heaven for us to enter through the gates of the city is our destination.

      Revelation 22:14
      Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      • Hey Hobie ,

        The Pope is absolutely right when he says that Sunday is for God.

        It is the same as the commandment of keeping
        the Sabbath holy.

        The only thing is that he put it across in a different way.

        Instead of arguing in the reckless way that you are ,
        it would be better for you to pick out the truth in what a person
        says , rather than in trying to pull him down.

        Try to do something useful Hobie.
        Don’t waste your talents.
        Do bury your talent in the ground.
        Invest it somewhere.

        Call up someone and pray for them.
        Go visit the sick and pray that they be healed in the name
        of Jesus.
        Give a hungry person a morsel of food.
        Offer to baby-sit a single parent , and let them take a few hours off.
        They will see the Lord working thru you.

        In Christ

        Vikki

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