Sin and Saints

Is sin only something you ‘do’? or, is it more?

In writing this, I feel as though I am having to answer to a denominational textbook that I have no intention of reading. I am attending a pentecostal church in which I have good standing and am highly regarded by leadership. However, the Bible is my text of choice. The apostles and prophets who are exalted by God in scripture, are my heroes. Within the pages of scripture alone will we find this topic sufficiently covered.

Basic scriptures on sin, that define it for me are these:
“Sin is the transgression of the law.”

What is the law? “Love.” Love for God, Love for neighbor – whether friend or foe.
God is Love. He is pure love. This is called holiness.

Sin is ANY deviation of that love, small, or great, in Word, Thought, or Deed.
The word often used for ‘sin’ in the Bible means, “missing the mark.” The ‘mark’ is ‘love’.
Some will quote that we ‘cannot sin’ as Christians. They take these words from 1 John 3:9. They ignore the context in the surrounding verses and promote a scripturally unbalanced dogma that does not seek to harmonize with the other words of John in this very same epistle.

In 1 John, the apostle was addressing a broader topic than ‘can a Christian sin’, He was addressing Sin. In 1:8 he says to the Christian church, “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” So, I have biblical ground to say ‘all Christians sin.”

In 3:9, he says, ” Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” So, the stage is set for discussion. BOTH these verses are true. The problem is not with John’s understanding… the problem is with ours. Our understanding must make allowance for both to be true, if WE are to be true.

To take 1 John 3:9 and say a Christian can never sin, or else they are not a Christian, is to disallow the reality of 1 John 1:8. The apparent contradiction, but the fact there can be none, leaves us with the task of examining the key word in both verses, “sin.” Is there a level of sin that ALL Christians are subject to, and a level of sin that goes beyond what a Christian can allow in their lives and still be called a Christian?

I will add to this blog as time allows….

What do YOU think?

comments

Comments

  1. May I shed a different light on Hebrew 10:16-27? Verse 16-17 of Hebrews chapter 10 talks about the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrews begins to tell what the terms of that covenant are: (1) “I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them’ (vs. 16); (2) “their sins and iniquities I will remember no more” (vs. 17).

    The writer proceeds to mention some of the benefits of this New Covenant in verses 18-22: “boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus”; “our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience” and “our bodies washed with pure water”. Sounds like a good deal, doesn’t it?

    Verse 23 says. ”Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)”. What is the “profession of our faith”? Our profession is this: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; that he died on the cross for our sins; that he arose to confirm our salvation and He is sitting at the right hand of God making intercession for us. We receive this information by faith. Notice the phrase “without wavering”. Apparently God knows that a saved person may have doubts about the security of his or her salvation at times. However, God would say to us, “Don’t worry. Your salvation is secure with me.” Thus we have the words in parenthesis “he is faithful that promised”.

    Verses 24 and 25 talk about how Christians should encourage and support one another in as they endeavor to live for Christ each day.

    There is a difference of opinion concerning verse 18 and verses 26-27. I would like to share my thoughts on these two verses. Here is verse 18:

    “Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”

    What does the word “these” refer to? One must go back to the previous verse, verse 17. You’ll find that the writer is referring to “their sins and iniquities.” “Remission” means that these sins and iniquities have been forgiven. What does it mean that “there is no more offering for sin”? It means there is no further need of a sacrifice, since Jesus was the ultimate and final sacrifice

    Here is verse 26 and 27:

    “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

    Here in these two verses, the writer is presenting the only other option or alternative outside of Jesus and the Grace He offers. The “we” in this verse is referring to people who have gained a “knowledge of the truth”, but they ignore it and keep on sinning. What is “the knowledge of the truth”? It is the Gospel. If a person rejects the sacrifice that Jesus made for his or her sins, then, that person is out of luck. God is not going to offer them anything else. All they have to look forward to is “judgment and fiery indignation.” Their sin in this case is unbelief. They go on living in unbelief.

    Since the word “willful” is used to describe the word “sin” in verse 26, it shows the severity of this sin. It is almost as if this person disdains the Gospel. Verse 29 bears this out. It speaks of putting “underfoot the Son of God”; counting “the blood of the covenant…as an unholy thing”; and doing “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” No true born again Christian would be guilty of such a thing. This has to be a lost person. Verse 39 verifies the fact that the “we” in verse 26 is not referring to the Christian. It says, ”But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

    • lookinforacity says:

      Hi Sunrise

      Glad to see you back, you add a lot to the discussion

      Hebrews 6:4-6 goes in to more detail on who the “WE” are in Hebrews 10:26,27. Heb.10 is a reiteration of Heb. 6

      When you say
      “The “we” in this verse is referring to people who have gained a “knowledge of the truth”, but they ignore it and keep on sinning. What is “the knowledge of the truth”? It is the Gospel. If a person rejects the sacrifice that Jesus made for his or her sins, then, that person is out of luck. God is not going to offer them anything else.
      All they have to look forward to is “judgment and fiery indignation.” Their sin in this case is unbelief. They go on living in unbelief.”

      The “we” are clearly saved.
      Look at these verses, side by side

      Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
      Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
      Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

      Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
      Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

      JIM

      • I have done some research after writing my comments. Just wanted everyone to know that I did not get my ideas from Scott Grant. This information is found under the topic of Judgment for abandoning faith (10:26-31).

        Comments are by Scott Grant

        “What, then, can be said about someone who “sins willfully”? It can be said that this person wants no part of Christ, that he has utterly rejected the salvation that God has offered after being fully exposed to that offer. In being exposed to the offer, this person received the knowledge of the truth and was “sanctified” by the blood of Christ. This is not a person who ever believed the gospel; this is someone [who] got a good look at it and then rejected it. Although the writer used the word “sanctify” in describing a believer (10:10, 14), the broad meaning of the word is to be set apart for something. The blood of Christ set apart this person for exposure to the gospel, for apart from the blood of Christ, there is no gospel. The word is used by Paul to describe an unbelieving spouse who is “sanctified” by his or her believing partner (1 Corinthians 7:14). Paul clearly doesn’t mean “saved” here, because he says in verse 16, “For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?” He means that an unbelieving spouse is exposed to the gospel and its benefits through the believing spouse. The writer of Hebrews, just as he did in Chapter 6:4-8, is describing someone who has seen the benefits of the gospel and then rejected it. This person has chosen to be God’s adversary. This person, therefore, will experience God’s judgment, which will involve “severer punishment” than the punishment of death called for in the Law of Moses.”

        Referenced from: http://www.pbc.org/system/message_files/10517/heb17.html

        The closest example that I can think of that would fit the kind of person mentioned in Hebrews 10:26-27 is Judas Iscariot.

        A List of Biblical Commentaries on Hebrews: http://preceptaustin.org/hebrews_1026-27.htm

        • This doesn’t really make sense, its a classic example of twisting the Scripture to fit into a pre-determined doctrinal straitjacket. Its amazing how theologians can take the clear words of Scripture and then make them somehow effectively say the opposite of what anyone who simply read them would understand.

          The writer of Hebrews is addressing people who had converted to Christ. He says if “we wilfully sin”, not “if your unsaved spouse who you presented the gospel to quite clearly but never knew the Lord – sins”. If someone gives up the faith and turns back to Judaism or whatever lifestyle and culture they embraced before they KNEW the Lord, if they don’t repent, they will surely PERISH and no sacrifice for sins remains for them.

          Twist the Scriptures at your peril.

        • lookinforacity says:

          .Sunrise

          Scott Grant makes a statement that

          Someone who “sins willfully”
          “In being exposed to the offer, this person received the knowledge of the truth and was “sanctified” by the blood of Christ.
          This is not a person who ever believed the gospel; this is someone [who] got a good look at it and then rejected it.”

          Scott has said, a person who becomes Sanctified by The Blood of Christ, does not necessarily have to believe the Gospel.

          That is a lie of Satan, right out of the pit of Hell.
          Anyone who has been Sanctified by the blood of Jesus, becomes Holy set apart unto God.

          Sanctify, Sanctified
          G37
          From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: – hallow, be holy, sanctify.

          Scott says
          “The word is used by Paul to describe an unbelieving spouse who is “sanctified” by his or her believing partner (1 Corinthians 7:14). Paul clearly doesn’t mean “saved” here, because he says in verse 16, “For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?”

          Looking at 1 Cor. we see.
          1Co 7:14
          For the unbelieving husband is (SANCTIFIED BY THE WIFE), and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

          The Sanctification spoken of here is not by the Blood of Jesus.
          (THE UNBELIEVING SPOUSE IS SANCTIFIED BY THE BELIEVING SPOUSE), for the express purpose of having Holy Children.
          The sanctification being spoken of, which is derived from the union with a spouse, is not retained if the unbelieving spouse leaves the union.
          This type of sanctification cannot be compared as being the same, as the Sanctification by the Blood of Jesus.

          Scott goes on to say.
          “The writer of Hebrews, just as he did in Chapter 6:4-8, is describing someone who has seen the benefits of the gospel and then rejected it.”

          These are the words of Paul.
          Heb 6:4
          For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
          Heb 6:5
          And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

          Paul is clearly NOT speaking of someone, who has only seen, or received the cursory Sanctification of a believing spouse, for the purpose of having Holy children.

          1) A person who has been enlightened, has come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
          2) A person who has tasted of the heavenly gift, has received the gift of the GRACE OF GOD.
          3) A person who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost, has received the EARNEST OF HIS INHERITANCE.
          4) A person who has tasted the word of God, has been PARTAKER OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF CHRIST.
          5) A person who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, has THE POWER OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD WORKING IN THEIR LIFE.

          The person just described by Paul in Heb, 6, is obviously SAVED.
          And as it says “IF” ” If they shall fall away”
          The question then is “HOW BIG of a fall does God actually allow”?

          Sounds more like Scott is trying to make scripture fit into his Theology

          JIM

          • There is much controversy over those passages in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10. I think the key to the verses in Hebrews 6 begins with the phrase in verse 4: “For it is impossible”.

            What is your take on Hebrews 6:6?

    • Timothy Luke says:

      I would like to share my perspective on what these verses allude to:

      I would say that the wavering is in our commitment to God. Jesus said he was as a rich man going to a far country and leaving his house in possession of His servants. He warned them to be about their daily business and keep up that which was entrusted to them. If they thought he were not to return, they would take leave of their responsibilities. We do not waver in our obedience the to LORD who called us. “Why call you me Lord, Lord, and DO not the things that I say?”
      This is not just about ‘believing we are saved,” it is about believing our Savior is coming back and we are to have the task accomplished at His return. We must not waver in that commitment…. That is my understanding of this verse. Not all will agree, but let’s play nice!

      • lookinforacity says:

        TIM

        When Jesus spoke this parable you are referring to, who was He speaking to – – about?
        What was the subject, and context of this parable?

        “Jesus said he was as a rich man going to a far country and leaving his house in possession of His servants.
        He warned them to be about their daily business and keep up that which was entrusted to them.”

        Having made statements and only referring to scripture without giving the actual verses, I dont know which Parable you are speaking of, because it sounds as though you have managed to mix two Parables together making one.

        JIM

        • Timothy Luke says:

          Perhaps I have, let me check!….
          You are right, I have mixed parables… like carrots and peas!
          Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
          Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
          Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
          Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
          This is the crux of what I was saying, though I may have blended specifics from other parables! Thanks for keeping me straight Jim!

  2. First of all, the Holy Spirit is not going give people contradictive interpretations of the same Scripture. That would be confusing. God is not the author of confusion. That said, I would like to comment on 1 John 3:9, which states, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

    “Whosoever” could be anybody. But, when you add the phrase “is born of God”, you know immediately that it is speaking of a born again believer. The next phrase says, “doth not commit sin.” Did John make a mistake here? No. He meant exactly what he said. Just to make sure that no one misunderstands him, he repeats the same idea in the last part of the verse when he says: “he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” It’s like John flips the sentence around, but it comes out the same.

    John even tells us another reason why “he cannot sin”, when he says, “for his seed remaineth in him.” That “seed” is Jesus. He gives us God’s divine nature. Jesus is who God sees when he looks at us. Jesus, our substitute, never broke any of the 613 laws. Jesus is the fulfilled law inside of us. We have met every requirement of the law through Jesus. Not only that, any sins a believer commits has been paid for by His blood on the cross. God’s sense of justice has been satisfied through Jesus. Everything a believer inherits from God comes through Jesus.

    As far as the word “sin” goes, John made it perfectly clear what he meant by sin in 1 John 3:4. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.” The NIV calls it “lawlessness”, which means to break the law. What law? It is the Law given to Moses. A believer is not under the jurisdiction of that Law. The believer is under the Grace given by God. Some would say that sin means missing the mark. OK. What mark? It’s talking about God’s standard, which is the Law given to Moses. So, it all boils down to “transgressing the law”.

    Look at the difference between 1 John 3:4 and 1 John 3:9. I will be using the first part of each verse.

    Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law…” 1 John 3:4a

    “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…” 1 John 3:9a

    The “whosoever” in 1 John 3:4 refers to the person who has not yet come to Christ. Anyone who is without Christ is lost. When a lost person commits sin, he or she “transgresses the law”. That is because that person is under the Law given to Moses and is not covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.

    The “whosoever” in 1 John 3:9 is the saved person, who has been “born of God”. The saved person doesn’t transgress the Law and therefore commits no sin. How is that possible? It is possible because that person is not under the Law but under Grace and that person is covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. The blood shows that a price has been paid for those sins. The blood cancels all sin.

    Can a Christian sin? Yes and No. It’s like a paradox. Herein is the paradox. If a Christian happens to sin that sin is not imputed to them. It’s like he or she never sinned. Jesus who is our advocate defends the believer’s position. (1 John 2:1) It’s like God saw all of our sins before any were ever committed and he put all those sins on Jesus at the cross where He paid for them with His holy, precious blood. This should give all Christians a deep appreciate for what Jesus has done. By the way, a person is not a Christian unless they have come by way of the blood of Jesus Christ.

    I will close with this thought which has just come to me. If the Law is outside of a person, that person is under the curse of the Law. Therefore, that person is under condemnation. However, if the Law is inside of a person that person has been redeemed from the curse of the Law. Redemption is permanent, because sin cannot be charged to the redeemed person anymore. Remember that John wrote the whole book of 1 John. Whatever other verses he wrote in 1 John does not negate the verse I have been discussing.

    • Holyroller_11 says:

      check out holiness preaching,on video, 2nd 1 at top row,listen to the truth on sin and saints,and sanctification by God,

    • Holyroller_11 says:

      Partly agree,a saint can sin,and it must be accounted for,however we must fix it or lose our salvation.sin is an act of transgression of God’s commandments, the blood of Jesus washes our sin nature away,and replaces it with the nature of Jesus,but only upon the second blessing.,now we get to a discussion,can a saint lose their salvation and also the Spirit of God dwelling inside,I say yes,your turn

      • Timothy Luke says:

        Joe, I agree that a saint can lose their salvation. I would say we have to acknowledge different degrees of sin…. ie, there is a sin unto death and a sin not unto death… What does THAT mean? I believe in defining this, we may yet work a framework of discussion on this further.

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          I would like to go further and say what man would look on as sin,somethings are not,for example,our emotions sometime get us in a less holy situation,we still feel bad afterward,such as anger or maybe less pleasent to the neighbors for something they did to upset us,seems the first time we get in a heated disagreement with a family member,the first thing they say is,and you call yourself a christian, we are human also,but God didn’t want robots or he would have made us that way. but I would like a discussion on degrees of salvation,it may get heated,but explains alot on different issues, and by degrees,not saying a person has salvation or not but on the ways people use what they have.if that makes any sense, maybe 1 day, also how is the Cindy project going,is she better?

          • Timothy Luke says:

            In Ephesians 4:26 I see a principle that I believe has broad ranging implications regarding emotions and sin. We are given Godly emotions, for we are made in HIS image, and God has emotions… however…. the devil likes to get in their and hijack our emotions for his evil purposes – to kill, steal and destroy our relationships. SO, while our initial anger may be alright, it is merely a flag to direct our attention on to the true motives of our heart. We are forced to examine our intents and “why” am I angry?
            Often it is because of an injustice done to us…. We then must determine, “is this injustice real?” or, “am I making something out of nothing?”
            If it is our perception at fault, we REPENT and put on the mind of Christ, who is the Truth. If they indeed sinned against us, we again put on the mind of Christ and FORGIVE them, even as Christ forgave us WHILE we were YET sinners.
            I believe a person can have eternal salvation with the spirit of God dwelling in them…. but then again, that is like the talents given…. if we bury it, will it not be taken back in the day of reckoning as per Matt. 25:15-30?
            Regarding Cindy, she needs prayer as much as ever. Needs to break through in areas of forgiveness. She is a wonderful person who has not shaken the lie that the degree of a person’s sin can make it too much to forgive, because they do not deserve it and they are not repenting of it.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I believe,that a person can have savation and still have the seed of sin in their heart,also,they can have the Spirit of God UPON them,,yet not living inside them,and must seek until the complete armor of God is recieved, this is the basic reason we cross roads on occasion, also has been a hot topic for many different brands of church doctrine, the main thing is we must be about our Father’s business,and not hide the talent we all have. I also believe the seed of sin is removed prior to the infilling of the HolyGhost

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I base my info on the old paths of pentecostals,but I was not in church as a youth, So I base my facts on my own salvation,because I can know what I say is sure, I prayed for savation at my home with an old pentecostal,preacher, but felt no real change,yes I was saved ,if I died then, but the seed of adam remained, so I would pray long hours to feel change, as I have posted earlier,I found a great powerful change,I call sanctification,the cleaning of the vessel or seed swap,if you will, this gave me the faith and hunger for more,had I not recieved this I would have been a weak and dying short lived child of God. My next need,have to have, the infilling,of the Holy Ghost,or the baptizism, which also was one that was powerful, and I believe everyone can and should recieve in a powerful way and not settle for less,simply because when those hard days and lonely days of a saint in their own trials,come those experieces will help keep the believer solid and strong,looking back on where God has brought them. the word is more than words it also has power and the power is our help and evidence,all things are possible, because I had a huge experience,means everyone can,and I wish they would, I believe because of christians not being filled or santified,they are far more likely to be lead off on strange doctrine,and I also believe this is a direct result of many cults and also divions in the church world.and causes weak or dead christians,who have the lack of knowledge to know they are dead. the cure is the hardest thing in the world to do, as the 120 in the upper room,TARRY until. there were 500,that heard him say tarry in Jerusalem until the promise,but at the end of day,only 120 recieved the whole package,

        • lookinforacity says:

          TIM

          The reason there are 613 Rabbinic Laws is, because they have made “DEGREES” of Sin, and thereby making it more and more difficult to keep the Law as given by God.

          Jesus simplified the Law for us who believe when he said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

          Making degrees of sin is a slippery slope, once you start down that road there is no end, it is a complicating of a very simple concept instituted by God Himself.

          The actual categorizing of sin, then assigning a degree of severity to it, would be an attempt at justifying some sins in order to fit into our doctrins on sin and salvation.
          looking at the question of our making degrees of sin, would only be an attempt to break down the Law to such a point, where we can then be comfortable in committing sin, a feeble attempt to justify some sin in our lives, rather than accepting the fact scripture says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”

          What is the just penalty for sin?
          If a person never comes to Christ, do they receive a death penalty because of the culmination of sin in their lives, or is one sin enough to send a person to hell?
          We look at Homosexuality as an abomination, but God says an unjust weight, and a lie is also abomination.

          Whenever we talk about being free of the Law are we referring to the 613 Rabbinic Laws, or are we referring to the 10 commandments which have been written upon our hearts, and minds.

          The Catholic Church has placed degrees upon sin, then gives different penance for the person asking forgiveness. Upon death, they can then go to Purgatory, if they haven’t sinned any Mortal sins, and can be prayed out of Purgatory by someone still alive.

          1Jn_3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
          Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

          Paul never wrote in any of his epistles on degrees of sin.

          JIM

      • childofjesus says:

        As i understand that salvation can be lost by a believer.
        We often talk about believers falling into temptations and then repenting and getting back to Jesus, however we have shared little as to how a believer reacts to trials in their lives.I have known believers who in their trial period if not comforted by Jesus (the way they want), have betrayed Him and gone after other gods.I think this is one of the dreadful sin a believer commits.
        Also as a born again in Christ, i strive everyday for the indwelling of Holy Spirit.A believer’s life is not easy as some claim.The Enemy works very hard to steal the joy which we have in Jesus.

        • childofjesus says:

          I’m rejoicing night and day
          As I walk the narrow way,
          For the hand of God in all my life I see;
          And the reason of my bliss,
          Yes, the secret all is this:
          That the Comforter(Holy Spirit) abides with me.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            A great old song and is still used in churches today,also I used to hear the children in church sing: the B .I .B .L .E, thats the book for me, I stand alone on theword of God, thats the book for me, be blessed

          • childofjesus says:

            Heb 4:12 – “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”

            Many books inform, but only one transforms —the B.I.B.L.E

      • To be saved then lost, here is what would have to happen:

        The blood of Jesus would have to be removed

        The seal of the Holy Spirit, or the presence of the Holy Spirit would have to be removed

        The robe of righteousness would have to be removed and one’s filthy rags would have to be given back

        A person’s name would have to be blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life

        The covenant that God made with Jesus for our salvation would have to be broken

        A person would have to be disinherited from whatever God would have given that person through Jesus

        The sacrifice that Jesus made for that person would have to be declared insufficient.

        The right of sonship would have to be removed.

        There may be some more things that I cannot think of right now.

        • Timothy Luke says:

          In all due respect, I will break down what you have said. It is like you put out a bunch of statements with no supporting Biblical evidence, or with emotional responses that would bolster your point.

          “To be saved then lost, here is what would have to happen:”
          Does the Bible state these things are what must happen for this to happen? No. So the beginning of your discourse is based upon my trusting the following points as validated by the Word of God, which they are not. So, I am trusting on your faith, not specific Bible verses, that the following is accurate…

          “The blood of Jesus would have to be removed”
          The blood of Jesus cleanses us, it does not cloak us as a bloody rag. Regarding our cleansing,

          2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
          2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
          These verses show one can ESCAPE the pollutions of the world through Jesus Christ. That can only happen if one is cleansed from the pollutions of the world through the blood of Jesus Christ, no? Otherwise we are not escaped, or redeemed. Yet, the Bible says clearly one can KNOW the way of righteousness and then lose that knowledge.
          In saying that, the context of “knowing” goes into experiential levels, or intimate knowing that is inside and outward knowledge. This can only happen through the imparting of the Holy Spirit, for spiritual things cannot be physically discerned, but are spiritually discerned, as per

          1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
          1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
          1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

          You say, “The seal of the Holy Spirit, or the presence of the Holy Spirit would have to be removed,” as though this is an impossibility that must be accepted and is a proven impossibility in scripture. Yet, there is no such statement in scripture that says one cannot have the Holy Spirit removed. In fact, David had the Holy Spirit and prayed that it NOT BE REMOVED from him. We can overwrite that and claim, “but that was OLD testament,” yet where does the new say otherwise? 2 Peter indicates clearly a spiritual understanding can be had and lost.
          Jesus says, “buy the truth and sell it not.” You do not admonish someone to NOT do something that it is impossible for them to do. Otherwise, Jesus would have said, “buy the truth which can never be sold or lost.”

          You say: “The robe of righteousness would have to be removed and one’s filthy rags would have to be given back,” again, as though this is not possible, yet Peter speaks of being cleansed and going back into the mire, or vomit. It CAN happen.

          You say: “A person’s name would have to be blotted out of the Lamb’s Book of Life,” Yet we read in Revelation:

          Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
          Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
          Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

          It is conditional upon us remembering, holding fast, and repenting. If we do not meet those conditions, our names will INDEED be blotted out of the Book of Life.

          You say, “The covenant that God made with Jesus for our salvation would have to be broken,” What covenant are you speaking of? Do I need to fill in the blank with something that assumes your point is valid?

          You say, “A person would have to be disinherited from whatever God would have given that person through Jesus.” Again, this is put here as an impossibility, as though one cannot lose their inheritance, yet, the Bible shows our inheritance is conditional upon our retaining the Holy Spirit as the earnest money of it. If I have money to make a down payment on a home, it does me no good if I lose it before the closing date. We are to hold onto these things until the coming of the Lord (the redemption of the purchased possession), or we will indeed lose our inheritance.

          Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
          Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

          You say, “The sacrifice that Jesus made for that person would have to be declared insufficient.” This is a direct assault on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and its sufficiency. His sacrifice is sufficient to do what it was offered to do… BUT, it was never given to make our choices Godly choices from the moment we received. To say that because a Christian can turn away make the sacrifice insufficient is to say that because I drive my Ferrari into the lake infers Ferrari is to blame for the failure.
          The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient to bring us to glory, if we continue in overcoming sin… Read Revelation 2&3 and you will see the church is constantly challenged to overcome or lose it.

          You say, “The right of sonship would have to be removed,” as though the Bible says that is an impossibility. You have the right to buy a house if you have the downpayment, but if you squander it on your fleshly desires and do not have it at the final sale, it is not God’s fault. Esau sold his birthright, we are warned not to do the same.

          Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
          Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
          Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

          MANY WARNINGS are given TO THE CHURCH. You do not warn someone to guard something that cannot be taken away.

          Now, I have taken the time to individually address these so that others may know there is Biblical evidence against the conclusion your questions and assertions would lead one to. I hope you can look these verses up in your own Bible and read the greater contexts of them to see that I am using them consistently in the realm of their contexts

          I am not out to attack or belittle you, dear sister and elder in the Lord, I do have the responsibility as a moderator here to represent the Bible as clearly as I see it. I believe you have grown up under certain doctrines that are Biblically unfounded and based more upon human reasoning that divine revelation. In meekness I ask you to take these things to the Lord, that your witness for Him would be consistent with His Word.

          Blessings and peace,
          Tim

          • Here is the Scripture concerning what a person receives whenever he or she becomes saved. Sorry for not providing any Scripture earlier, but it was late and I was too tired to look up any at the time. These are things that would have to be removed from a person who you say can lose his or her salvation. I respectfully disagree with that concept, but we can just agree not to agree.

            THE SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

            Ephesians 1:13

            In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT of promise,

            Ephesians 4:30

            And grieve not the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption.

            [Question: How long did it say the believer is sealed?]

            2 Corinthians 1:22

            Who hath also SEALED US, and given the earnest of the SPIRIT in our hearts.

            BLOOD

            Ephesians 1:7

            In whom we have REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

            [Question: What redeems us?]

            Revelation 1:5

            And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD…

            [Jesus may not have cloaked us in His blood, but He sure did wash us in it.]

            LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE

            Revelation 21:27

            And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the LAMB’S BOOK OF LIFE.

            [Those that “defileth” and “worketh abomination”, or “maketh a lie” are the unsaved.]

            [The “it” here is heaven. Also notice that the names are WRITTEN IN the Lamb’s Book of Life. There are two books, the Book of Life and the Lamb’s Book of Life. Those who reject Jesus are BLOTTED out of the Book of Life.]

            ROBE OF RIGHTEOUS

            Isaiah 61.10

            I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the ROBE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, as a bridegroom decketh [himself] with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth [herself] with her jewels.

            [This is prophecy concerns the saints of the church age. Thus, it mentions the words “bridegroom” and “bride”.]

            SACRIFICE

            Hebrews 9:26

            For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of himself.

            [Question: What does Jesus do to sin? How far do you think He puts sin? Refer to Psalm 103:12]

            Hebrews 10:12

            But this man, after he had offered one SACRIFICE for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

            SONS OF GOD

            John 1:12

            But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the SONS OF GOD, [even] to them that believe on his name:

            1 John 3:2

            Beloved, now are we the SONS OF GOD, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

            INHERITANCE

            Ephesians 1:11

            In whom also we have obtained an INHERITANCE, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

            Revelation 21:7

            He that overcometh shall INHERIT all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

            COVENANT

            Hebrews 12:24

            And to Jesus the mediator of the NEW COVENANT, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

            Hebrews 13:20

            Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the EVERLASTING COVENANT,

            [Question: How long does this covenant last?]

            Psalm 50:5 [This is God speaking]

            Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a COVENANT with me by sacrifice.

            [Notice what He calls the believer. Also, notice how the covenant is made.]

            The End

            Jude 1:24

            Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

            [Question: What two things is Jesus able to do? Notice that it is His doing and not ours.]

          • Timothy Luke says:

            You seem to think that salvation is conditional. Is God’s love conditional? Then, why would His salvation be conditional?

            Answer… We are people who are given a free will. If we choose to live according to the spirit, we shall receive eternal life. If we choose to walk after the flesh, we shall die after the flesh, because God is not interested in making a bunch of sinners who have turned away from the truth into eternally blessed sinners, for that would inflict a curse on heaven’s Kingdom itself… for they would use their blessing as a means to torment and curse others just like we see in the world today.

            God’s love is unconditional. If you love your teenager, do you have to give them a Mustang to prove it? Sometimes love withholds until someone is able to use it wisely and not to the peril of themselves and others.
            Saul was anointed and operated in the spirit at one point. He prophesied. He turned to himself, instead of God. I think he proves what I am saying, as God promised him the kingdom, just like He does us, if we continue to hearken to him…

            While the conditions of God’s love do not change, the manner in which He can best deal with us does change. If I am into philanthropy, He could express His love to me with lavish blessing, for I will give it away freely… if I am greedy, it does not bless me to have an abundance of ‘things’ as my heart is cursed by abundance in that instance.

            In the Garden of Eden, God refused to allow man to eat of BOTH trees. This will always be the case, because to this day, God is not going to allow man, who chooses to walk in sin, to have eternal life – for it would be a curse to him and others. This is love, but the expression of it is best given as a death sentence… hence, “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.”

            I hope that helps clarify my beliefs here. Thanks for asking,
            Tim

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Sunrise, I love you MORE than the disagreement! I was going to leave it at that, but you have asked me questions, so in respect to you, I shall plow into them!

            1-[Question: How long did it say the believer is sealed?] until the day of redemption.

            2 – Q: What redeems us? – God redeems us, and we are purchased not with silver or gold, but the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

            3- [Question: What does Jesus do to sin? How far do you think He puts sin? Refer to Psalm 103:12]
            ANSWER: Jesus removes our sin as far as east is from west. Question from me – when does he do that? Ans. IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Hence the NEW testament has the CONDITION of forgiveness and cleansing clearly linked to ongoing confession of our sin.

            4 – [Question: How long does this covenant last?] Answer: everlasting. You will note it is a COVENANT> This is to say an AGREEMENT. You do this and I pay that… The fact it is eternal does not tell us about the terms, it merely tells us that the terms are unchanging, whatever they may be.

            5 – [Question: What two things is Jesus able to do? Notice that it is His doing and not ours.] He is ABLE to keep us from falling, AND He is able to present us faultless before the Father. Being able, is potential energy, so to speak. If we do not trust Him in our faith walk, He will not force Himself on us to keep us from falling away, though He is certainly able to do so. Hence, we have warning and admonitions to not fall away…

            I have answered five questions, let me ask just one.

            Question: If salvation is automatically assured to those who give their hearts to the Lord, under all circumstances, then Why is the New Testament filled with admonitions to make our calling and election sure, and to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and to not be as Esau who sold his birthright?

          • First of all, let me say I am enjoying myself. I love talking about God’s Word. That said, I will address the issue of the covenant.

            NEW COVENANT

            The New Covenant was made between God and Jesus. This means that Jesus is the keeper of the terms of that covenant. If the New Covenant had been made between God and us, then, our continuing salvation would have depended on us to keep those terms.

            OLD COVENANT

            When God set up the Old Covenant with Abram, He put Abram to sleep. He went through the pieces of animals that Abram had cut into to seal the covenant. Abram should have walked between those pieces. However, God knew that Abram might not always be faithful to that covenant, so He went through the pieces Himself. Thus, we have the smoking pot (Genesis 15:17). He substituted Himself for Abram. This corresponds to Jesus taking our place on the cross and being our substitute. That is why Jesus is the keeper of our salvation. He earned the right to do so.

            FORGIVENESS

            Think about forgiveness. How many times should we forgive a person who has offended or hurt us? Every time, just like Jesus. That’s the way He is. Jesus gives the believer eternal forgiveness. That’s why if the believer happens to stray, he or she can come back with a fresh start, like David (OT) and Peter (NT).

            TRUE STORY

            I read about a couple whose son was killed in a car accident. He was hit by another young man who was drunk. They were very angry at the young man and they were really going to see to it that he got what he deserved. But, something changed their minds, and they decided to help him overcome his problem. Later, as the story goes, he became like a son to them. Because of them, it changed his life.

            Forgiveness means “the act of releasing or letting go”. That’s how God is. He gave us Grace instead of an eternity in hell as we deserved. When people understand the Grace of God fully, it changes their lives.

            Does forgiving someone mean that what the other person did was not important or didn’t matter? No. But, when a person doesn’t forgive, it will eat them up inside. Forgiveness is for that person’s sake as well as the person who hurt or offended them.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Dear sister, I am glad you are enjoying yourself in this. I too am. Your thoughts make me sharpen mine, and I am sure, mine do the same for you. I have found that usually those who are coming to teach, are the ones writing, and those coming to learn are those reading… so, when we post differing views, it is rare indeed that one will openly change and come to the opinion of another. At best, we are laying out our hearts and thoughts and being strengthened in our own views, rather than bringing another around to them. Thanks for sharing your faith with us!
            Timothy

          • Timothy Luke says:

            “The New Covenant was made between God and Jesus. This means that Jesus is the keeper of the terms of that covenant. If the New Covenant had been made between God and us, then, our continuing salvation would have depended on us to keep those terms.”
            This is where I am coming from. God and Jesus had no need of covenant, for they are one… there is no need for me to write a contract with myself when I am “all in” on doing something. Hebrews indicates the covenant is like the old, between us and God, but the terms (not the parties) are what have been changed.
            This may explain the reason we are seeing the finer points so differently! 🙂
            In further thought, the parties are changed in that internally we are changed from carnal with no hope to having access to the Holy Spirit and the earnest of salvation. Also it is between God and the NT Church, rather thanGod and the “church in the wilderness…” The point being, it is still between God and man, not God and God.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            It seems to me both of you are saying the same with different words,salvation is a gift and an open door,but in order to get in ,follow the road map,the strait gate,if one changes direction and chooses the crooked road,then you follow a different road,and left your salvation, salvation didn;t change or move, in the old testiment, God;s priest were sealed by God also.the only difference is now we are priest and aswer to the high priest Jesus, the 12 tribes of Israel are the first born,because they rejected Jesus.he turned to the gentiles(,the grafted in) ,after the closing of the gentiles,he returns to his first born.

          • I will be more specific. God the Son became the Son of God when he took on human flesh. The covenant was between the Son of God and His Father. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Father even though they are both God.

            Now I understand where you are coming from. I see why you believe a person can lose his or her salvation, because you see the terms of the covenant as relying on yourself. You give yourself the responsibility of staying saved.

            In my opinion, a person is not capable of keeping his or her self saved. If it were possible, then, no one should ever become lost. But, you say a person can lose his or her salvation. Now I can see why. Thank you for that insight.

          • I am making a correction to”Concerning the Covenant from Sunrise”. I couldn’t edit it. That’s why I am replying to myself.

            After going over my document on from Sinner to Saint, I realized I had made a mistake. Anyway, the New Covenant is between God and man as Timothy Luke stated in his reply to me. This correction is based on the following Scripture:

            Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. Psalm 50:5

            I guess my brain most have been out in left field. When we are saved we do enter in to a covenant relationship with God, but the keeper of that covenant is Jesus. Jesus is there in heaven mediating, interceding and advocating for us.

            I looked up the definitions for those words which I shall give you also.

            Mediator: root word is mediate–meaning “to interpose between parties in order to reconcile them.”

            Intercessor: root word intercede–meaning “to act between parties with a view to reconciling differences: MEDIATE, INTERPOSE”

            Advocate #1: “one that pleads the cause of another; specif: one that pleads the cause of another before a tribunal or judical court: COUNSELOR”

            Advocate #2: “to plead in favor of: SUPPORT”

          • 3- [Question: What does Jesus do to sin? How far do you think He puts sin? Refer to Psalm 103:12]
            ANSWER: Jesus removes our sin as far as east is from west. Question from me – when does he do that? Ans. IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Hence the NEW testament has the CONDITION of forgiveness and cleansing clearly linked to ongoing confession of our sin.

            John had been talking about darkness and light. Anyone in darkness is lost, but anyone who is in the light is saved. How does one get in the light? By the verse you gave: IF we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). From how much unrighteousness does God cleanse a believer? All unrighteousness.

            Back up to verse 7. It says, “But if we walk in the light [that is if one is saved], as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin (NIV).” From how much sin does God purify a believer? All sin.

            I John 2:1 says, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. BUT IF anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One (NIV). Jesus defends our position, which I stated in an earlier comment.

            These verses do not condone sin in the believer. There are always consequences to sin. For the believer and the unbeliever there are earthly consequences for sin. But, with the unbeliever there is also severe, eternal consequences for sin.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            I agree with your last paragraph in particular! The element that I would add to that is this…
            If we walk in sin, we can harden our hearts once more to it and become unrepentant, thus removing ourselves from the remedy of sin which comes through repentance. Does that make sense?
            I appreciate you and your thoughts on this. I do not mind examining my own beliefs on this.
            Timothy

          • You seem to think that salvation is conditional. Is God’s love conditional? Then, why would His salvation be conditional after a person gets saved? David asked God not to take His Spirit or His salvation away from him and to return his joy. Do you know why God didn’t take those things away from David? It is because his innocent baby paid the price for his sin. The baby was representative of Christ. David’s sin did not affect his eternal destination, but it did affect his family and his reputation. Saul’s situation was not the same as David’s. He had to pay for his own sin in the sense that it affected him physically. I believe Saul represents those under the Law and David represents those under Grace.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            That is an interesting thought, that the innocent baby was a type of Christ… never pondered that before.
            2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
            2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
            We see David’s sin put away before the death of the child, and the death of the child was the punishment that was put upon David, whereas the death of Jesus was not the price we paid for redemption, but the price God paid.
            David’s sin did not affect his eternal salvation because he chose to repent of it. Had he not repented, he would not have been forgiven. Had Saul repented, his situation would have been as David’s, for Saul’s heart was right when he was anointed – God bearing witness with that saying, “when you were yet little in your own eyes, did I not make you king over all Israel?”
            Love and grace to you,
            Timothy

          • lookinforacity says:

            .

          • childofjesus says:

            Both had tasted God’s anointing, however they differed in making their choices.
            # David chose to return to God by repenting and yearned for His salvation (Psalm 51).On the other hand we see Saul went his own way.
            # David had many blessings & victories amidst all trials, however Saul was lost without God’s anointing and did detestable things in the eyes of the Lord.He even went to spiritist to ask what to do?
            # David was blessed with long life but Saul took his own life in despair.

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          the only thing here is ,some seeds are sown in stoney ground,and did not root,others the cares of this world.they rather have, the sacrifice is always there,the blood is always available and salvation,also,but the Spirit of God is depentant upon us,if we strive to enter in,or if we try to say we cannot loose,because of past experiences, God was with Israel,his first born,and left them to the lust of their own heart, yet his arm is outstreached still.If I reach out my hand to you when your falling,and in times past you took it,you were safe,but if you refuse it next time you fall,YOU FALL, Its not the sacrifice that is not sufficient,but the one who recieves and tosses it away. check out Isaiah, the days come when he will laugh at our trouble,those who think salvation is a mastercard,only claim it when you need it,just because one ask forgiveness,don;t automaticly mean they recieved, the heart is treacherous and only God knows what is in it. you said sin cannot be put back on ,right what was tossed away is gone,but a new account was started,after redemption,and there will be a judgement on that account,salvation is a conditional contract,it has rules,based on the 2 parties involved,life begins at salvation and dies at the breach of contract,

      • IMPUTE

        Psalm 32:1-2 [King David speaking]

        A Psalm of David, Maschil

        Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered. Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD IMPUTETH NOT INIQUITY, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile.

        Romans 4:5-8 [Paul speaking]

        But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness without works, Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not IMPUTE sin.

        I’m sure you familiar with these passages, but I want to concentrate on the word impute. Impute means to “credit to”. So, if you take Psalm 32:2 and you insert the definition of impute into it, it would read like this:

        Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD [does not credit] iniquity, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile.

        That word guile means no trickery, or deceit. The thoughts that David had are a reality today. When the Lord saves a person, that person is no longer credited with sin. Jesus has taken care of that.

        AN ILLUSTRATION

        I used this illustration with my Sunday school class one time. I took a piece of chalk. I said, “This is your sins.”

        I took a red plastic cup and put it over the chalk. I said, “This is the blood of Jesus.”

        I said, “Now look at it and tell me what you see.” They all said they just saw the cup, which stood for the blood of Jesus.

        I said, “That’s what God sees, when He looks at you, if you are saved. He doesn’t see your sins, but He sees the blood.”

        This reminds me of the Israelites, the night they got ready to leave Egypt. They had to put the blood of a spotless lamb on their door post, so that the death angel would pass over their house. Later when the death angel saw the blood, the angel would pass over that house. Had the blood not been applied, the death angel would have gone in and killed all in that household. Every person who has not had the blood applied is under the wrath of God. So, I’m saying, a person remains saved, because of the blood.

        This thought just came to me which I will share with you also. After the Israelites left Egypt, the blood on their doorposts would have still been there as a testimony to the Egyptians of God’s Grace towards His people.

        Other verses using a form of the word impute: Romans 4:11, 22-24; 5:13; James 2:23

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          before I decide to comment further, I need to know,do you think after a sinner recieves forgiveness,if he turns away and lives as he pleases,he is still saved,yes or no. do you think the blood of Jesus washes all sin away from that point on regardless of how we live? yes or no

          • I believe once a person is GENUINELY saved, that person is always saved. Why? It is because God is faithful to His promises. The believer may not always be faithful, but God is always faithful to the believer.

            GOD’S FAITHFULNESS

            1 Thessalonians 3:3

            But the Lord is faithful, who shall STABLISH you, and keep [you] from evil.

            1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

            And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved BLAMELESS unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

            Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

            1 Corinthians 1:9

            Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] BLAMELESS in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

            God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

            Weren’t we sinners, before we got saved? Yet Christ offered us the gift of salvation while we were in that condition. Would He not be just as forgiving if the saved person sinned? Why would He treat the sinner better than the saint?

            HOW GOD TREATS THE SINNER

            Romans 5:8-10

            But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

            Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

            For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

            It’s best not to judge another person’s salvation by what you see. Sometimes we don’t know what’s happening in a person’s life to make them act that way. Also, I believe what the Scriptures say, that all our sins are forgiven. I believe that a believer can get away from the Lord for a season, but if that person is truly saved, that person will come back. You’ve heard church folks say that God can take the bad and turn it into something good. Well, there has to be some “bad” first in order for this statement to be true.

            HOW GOD TREATS THE ELECT

            Romans 8:33-34

            Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

            Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

            [“Us” means you and I. Why the intercession? Why is it needed? Why does Jesus have to make intercession for us?]

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Sunrise – you are wrong. One could start the race and journey many miles before falling away. Judas is an example; he was saved at one point, but satan was able to get into him so that he would betray innocent blood. Many claim that Judas was never saved, but that is false because no unsaved person would be given the ability to heal and cast out devils in Jesus’ name.

            Matthew 10:1 – And when he [Jesus] had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

            What’s more, had Judas been unsaved and of the devil, then satan would have been casting out satan.

            Matthew 12:25-26 – And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

          • lookinforacity says:

            Stephen

            How does this fit into your theory?

            Joh. 6:70,71
            70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you (IS A DEVIL)?
            71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

            G1228
            διάβολος
            diabolos
            dee-ab’-ol-os
            Specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): – false accuser, devil, slanderer.

            H7854
            שׂטן
            śâṭân
            saw-tawn’
            From H7853; an opponent; especially (with the article prefixed) Satan, the arch enemy of good: – adversary, Satan, withstand.

            H7853
            שׂטן
            śâṭan
            saw-tan’
            A primitive root; to attack, (figuratively) accuse: – (be an) adversary, resist.

            JIM

          • lookinforacity says:

            Stephen

            Judas Iscariot, can never be used as an example, of a person who has lost their salvation, Jesus chose Judas, knowing beforehand that he would betray Him, this was all done to fulfill scripture. Judas was created to fulfill the purpose of God, Judas did not have a choice, whether to betray Jesus or not.

            Mat 27:9,10
            9) Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
            10) And gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed me.

            JIM

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Jim – I’ve heard the arguments, but I stand by my statement. Judas started with salvation, and then the devil entered him. You don’t believe in free will, so you can’t understand this.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Stephen

            Once again, you have chosen to ignore scripture.
            Scripture cannot be refuted, scripture is truth, it cannot be gainsaid against, the Prophesy by Jeremiah, does not say, “the name of the person who will betray Jesus will be Judas Iscariot”, Jesus would fill in the blanks when the occasion arose, which HE did.

            In case you missed it, I was saying.

            Judas did not have a choice whether or not he would exercise “Free Will”, he was predestined to commit the act of betrayal. When Jesus spoke the words “Follow Me”, He was the one Predestinated at that moment to betray Jesus.

            Joh. 6:70,71
            70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you (IS A DEVIL)?
            71) He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

            Therefore you cannot use Judas as an example of someone who has willingly sinned, knowingly walked away from salvation, “HE” just does not fit the mold, as far as Judas is concerned , there are a whole other set of special circumstances, which do not apply to anyone else ever born, therefore your model (a standard or example for imitation or comparison) is flawed.

            JIM

          • Jesus and his disciples were under the Law of Moses during Jesus ministry. The gift of salvation came after the crucifician of Christ. Blood had to be shed on the cross for remission of sins before the gift of salvation could be offered.

            As far as Judas goes, the Bible says that Satan didn’t enter Judas until just before the Passover, the Passover meal in which Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper. This can be referenced from Luke 22:1-4 and John 13:2.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            salvation has always been available ,blood sacrifices for sin has been since Moses,the only real difference,was blood sacrifices were temporary,and those who died righteous,went to paradice in the heart of the earth where there was a great gulf,seperating good from evil,when Jesus was in the heart of the earth,set those righteous free from paradice and rose with him to heaven.Jesus didn;t come to change the law,but to reconcile man back to God.as the tree falls,so shall it lay, if we start the race for SALVATION then we only obtain it at the END of the race. as I said ,the gift is available as long as one is willing to denigh HIMSELF and pick up HIS cross and FOLLOW CHRIST,if one chooses to quit before the race is over(LIFE), then he cannot obtain SIMPLE.many are CALLED,but FEW are chosen, I don’t know how it is written in niv,because I will not have niv in my house, with brotherly love HR

          • I’m like you on the NIV. I always reference back to my KJV just to be sure the two are on the “same page” so to speak.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I think you see good in people,and thats a good thing,I wish I could agree,once saved always saved,but I can;t, Solomon was gifted by God and God was in his heart for many years,but in his later days,turned and worshiped other gods,and no record of him ever turning back. to be as close as he was,yet turned, tells me it can happen to anyone. God will not allow sin in his kingdom,just as his word is true if everyone is a lier.God is able of these rocks to raise up children of Abraham,if we turn,he still will be worshipped,even if the rocks have to cry out,

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            the words,thou shall not temp the Lord thy God,and Lord did we not prophesi in your name,and he answered saying,depart from me I never knew you ,It is dangerous for a believer to try to base their eternal soul on ,I am a christian because I confessed last year or 2, strive to enter in,these things tell me ,luke warm is a lost christian,without pressing to be a christian,your soul is lost, but in the end,everyone must answer for themselves,God bless,

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Yes, we have no record of Solomon returning to the Lord.

          • Solomon didn’t have the Grace that we are offered today. He had to abide by the laws, decrees and statutes that God required. If he sinned, he had to bring an animal sacrifice for that sin just like everybody else in Israel.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            This is true,but never the less,the only difference is animal sacrifice is temperary,but still covered sin,solomon turned on God,and was lost,so salvation can be lost .Jesus was the perfect sacrifice,that was so valuable,he only had to die once,but we as the Jews,still have to keep seeking God and living according to God’s law,to be saved,Solomon still could have been saved,had he repented,just as we now,but if we or he refuse,then you loose your salvation.then,now,and forever the chosen of God in the old testiment did have the Spirit of God upon them,they just needed the curse of death through adam removed, not so many things changed as one things. man was bound from entering heaven until Jesus.but a holy life was required then and now,this was not changed. look at the before and after Christ.line up the law of God and add the law of Christ,not remove the law because of Christ.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            we most likely will never agree,but thats OK, the law is the 10 commandments plus 2 of Christ. these are the same as in old days, none of these excuse a believer to be lazy and hide his talent. the blood of Jesus is always the key to being saved.but it is not a substance that can be put on and taken off,it is a door to heaven or a stubbling block to those who once believed,but fell by the way side. so many are finding themselves in hell fire today,because of the once saved always saved,and living fleshly,as though they have out smarted those who seek God often and live Godly.thinking they can’t lose.the bible is full of people who lost their salvation

          • bornagainbytheblood says:

            Holyroller_11 wrote: >>so many are finding themselves in hell fire today,because of the once saved always saved,and living fleshly,as though they have out smarted those who seek God often and live Godly.< < This is so true. Hell is filled with many wailing Christians who died walking after the flesh, and more are on their way. Hell hath been enlarged to accommodate them all, for God is not mocked; whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap. Romans 8
            [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
            [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
            [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

            Galatians 5
            [24] And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Joseph

            Are you aware in the Old Testament, the words (Forgiveness – – Sin) never appear in the same verse, and that the words (Salvation – – Sin) only appear together 1 time.

            1Sa 19:5
            For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great (SALVATION) for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou (SIN) against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?

            1) The word Forgiveness, only appears 1 time in the Old Testament, in Psalms.
            2) But the word Salvation appears 119 times, and never in relation to Sin, of an individual.
            3) Sin on the other hand crops up a whopping 336 times, but never in relation to Forgiveness or Salvation.

            We can deduce from this absence of connection, the Jews did not know of, nor did they understand the concept of (Salvation from and Forgiveness of Sin), in relation to their Immortal soul, as we do through Jesus.

            The Jews went to the Bosom of Abraham, or Hell when they died, but it was not the same place we are headed, who have gained Salvation through Jesus Christ, for the Forgiveness of sins.

            We therefore cannot look at any of the Patriarchs, as having attained Salvation as we know it to be.

            Heb_11:40
            God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

            We cannot look at those of the Old Testament, like Solomon for example as loosing his Salvation, then drawing the conclusion that if Solomon lost his then we can too, it wasn’t the same, Solomon was under a legalistic Covenant, a system of keeping the Law.

            Rom_3:20
            Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

            Gal_2:16
            Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have
            believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

            Heb_7:19
            For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

            Eph_2:5
            Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

            Eph_2:8
            For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

            JIM

          • childofjesus says:

            In reference to what you said
            “We therefore cannot look at any of the Patriarchs, as having attained Salvation as we know it to be.”

            In Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
            Abraham was considered righteous by ‘Believing’ and not by ‘Law’.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            your right to the fact under the law no flesh could be saved,but waiting for the promise in paradise ,the rightous waited ,but the wicked in hell,are still there waiting for the great white throne judgement.so if Solomon didn’t repent ,he is still in hell. agreed,so salvation was still lost,or the chance of redemption from Christ was still lost.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Joseph

            What you say is true up to a point, the wicked are in hell still, no chance for forgiveness, the wicked are in hell, waiting for the great white throne judgement,

            Heb_9:27
            And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

            But when we come to Solomon, we can only assume what his end was.
            What we do know, is that there was judgement made by God for the sin he committed.

            1Ki 11:11,12
            11) Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
            12) Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father’s sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

            As far as Solomon being in Hell, there a question which arises.
            God pronounced a judgement for the sin of Solomon, does this mean Solomon would still go to Hell for that sin, if the penalty had already been decreed for it?

            In studying this event I came to something very interesting.
            David had Uriah killed, so he could have his wife Bathsheba, God pronounce judgement upon David for the sin of murder, David did say he had sinned against the lord, but it does not give an account of his repentance. David therefore besought God for the child, with fasting for 7 days, but the child died anyway.

            This was the judgement of God for the sin of murder which David had committed, it should not be forgotten however, there was more to this judgement of God upon David for the murder of Uriah, there would also be a curse, God said “Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house” meaning Solomon himself was under the curse which God made in judgement against the house of David.

            Dont forget, Solomon was the second child of David and Bathsheba, Solomon would never have been born, if David his Father had not murdered Uriah to have his wife.

            Now concerning Solomon’s sin, yes he did disobey God when he married strange wives, but wasn’t he predisposed to sin because of the Curse on the House of David?
            And when Solomon sinned, his son Rehoboam would pay the price, he would lose the Kingdom
            And his mother’s name was Naamah an Ammonitess, not being of the blood line of Abraham.

            The strangest thing of all is that, when we follow the blood line of the House of David, we come to the end with John the Baptist, and Jesus, both of them in the flesh, were under the same curse pronounced over David, “Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house”

            These were the things I found when studying about Solomons supposed loss of Salvation.

            To say it very simply, Salvation as the forgiveness of sin, was not offered to those of the old Testament.
            Forgiveness of sin was given by sacrifice, but Salvation was not given at the same time.
            Salvation did not come by the Law.

            It has been mentioned by Childofjesus, hope you two don’t mind my combining my answers.
            “In Gal 3:6
            Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
            “Abraham was considered righteous by ‘Believing’ and not by ‘Law’.”

            While this is true, righteousness was reckoned to Abraham, he did not at the same time attain Salvation.
            It is also true, this Righteousness was reckoned “by his believing, not the Law”, he believing was not in Jesus Christ as his Savior, but in the promise God had made that he would have a son, this believing of God also did not gain Abraham Salvation for forgiveness of sin.

            It should be noted, Noah was also deemed to be a Righteous man, this was before the Flood, and way before the Law, but this again did not gain for Noah, Salvation.

            There is a big difference between being a Righteous person, and having Salvation.
            A person who has attained Salvation is Righteous.

            Rom 10:10
            For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

            Rom_3:22
            Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

            2Co_5:21
            For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

            It is not by what we have done, but by what Jesus has done, it is a gift of God, this gift of Gods Grace was not available to anyone before Jesus’ Sacrifice for sin.

            Eph 2:8,9
            8.) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
            9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

            JIM

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            Quite a mouthful you wrote there. And a lot to ponder on for sure

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I understand you say righteousness and salvation is not the same in the old testiment, yet Solomon could have repented,there is no record,but only the righteous of old,would have been given the chance to accept the blood of Jesus,after his death,plus solomon and others knew the time would come when their righteousness would be joined with the salvation of Jesus,so I still say Solomon knew God in his heart and turned to worship other gods,which is the greatest sin,if sin could be measured,so regardless of law or grace,man must attempt to walk right in the sight of God to be able to finish his race to obtain the prize of everlasting life with Christ,do we agree,then man can loose his salvation? also first God’s law was written in the heart of Solomon,and the promise of God to send the perfect sacrifes was known,Solomon knew ,yet he turned, If he did not repent before he died, I’m sorry for him.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Joseph

            1) “yet Solomon could have repented, there is no record”

            Therefore we cannot judge the condition of his heart when he finally died, therefore we cannot use him or any other person in the Old Testament, as an example of someone who walked away from Salvation. If you want to make that case, it will take people from the New Testament, that will make it for you, Salvation was not available to them.
            They were under the Covenant of the Law, we are under Grace.

            2) “plus Solomon and others knew the time would come when their righteousness would be joined with the salvation of Jesus,”

            They might have known or understood the Messiah would ultimately come, but how would they know that their Righteousness would be joined with the Salvation of Jesus, if they didn’t even have the concept of Salvation as we do, their Righteousness was wrapped up in the Law and the keeping of it, where then is this information recorded.

            3) “so regardless of law or grace, man must attempt to walk right in the sight of God to be able to finish his race to obtain the prize of everlasting life with Christ,”

            We must do a whole lot more than “attempt to walk right”, according to what you have said “WE” must achieve this prize, because the Sacrifice of Jesus wasn’t good enough.
            In other words, “we have to do it, because God through Jesus couldn’t”.

            4) “also first God’s law was written in the heart of Solomon”

            Where is it written, “the law was written in the heart of Solomon”?
            These are the places in the Bible that statement is made, and it is Prophesy about the Nation of Israel, at the time of the end, Solomon is not mentioned.

            Jer. 31:33
            But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the (HOUSE OF ISRAEL); After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and (WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS); and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

            Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the (HOUSE OF ISRAEL); after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my (LAWS INTO THEIR MIND), and (WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS): and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

            Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will (PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM);

            5) “the promise of God to send the perfect sacrifice was known, Solomon knew, yet he turned”

            OK, Even IF Solomon did know “God would send the perfect sacrifice”,
            He did not know how it would affect him personally, Prophesy is a Mystery, no one knows it until it happens, and then they understand.

            Example
            There are constant discussions on the End Time Prophesy’s, but there isn’t one person, in the last 2000 years, who knows when, or in what order, or how it will affect anyone alive at the actual time of the end.

            Therefore Solomon was not privy to the understanding of the Mystery.

            6) “only the righteous of old, would have been given the chance to accept the blood of Jesus, after his death”
            On this point I fully agree with you. Here is the scripture to back up my belief.
            Jesus was crucified, placed in the tomb, but contrary to the belief that Jesus went a preached in Hell for the three days,those people had already been judged, that is why they were in Hell, Jesus would not go there and offer them a second chance.
            I believe he went to the place called the Bosom of Abraham, where there were those like Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua, David, (Solomon?) they were all looking for the Messiah, but did not know what it would mean to them personally. So when Jesus Arose on Resurrection Sunday, they came out with him.

            Mat. 12:40
            For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

            Mat. 27:52,53
            52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
            53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

            JIM

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            1st. let me say,You are a wise man and I enjoy your work, 2nd, the prophesy of the Savior was known from the beginning,Genesis 3;15 you say,Solomon would not know how the sacrifice would affect him,yet he wrote,28;13 he that covereth his sins shall not prosper;but whoso conesseth and FORSAKETH them shall have mercy. There is no doupt Solomon knew of the redemption and the prophesy. yet he served other gods in his latter days, So in knowledge of faith,which ever term you choose.by his own writings tells of his faith,are we all saved by faith? therefore Solomon could easily lost salvation.just as we being justified by faith and having knowledge of God through faith can loose ours, “knowiing to do good,and do it not,to him it is a sin.

          • childofjesus says:

            First all let me say that I love to learn from Bible and i’m learning & sharing a lot on this site.

            I agree & believe that salvation through Jesus Christ is a free & precious gift to us.
            In OT, God loved men & women who believed in Him.I see a very close relationship between God & these people.No where i find that God boasted about their ‘good works’.

            Also i would like to share in reply to
            1) “David did say he had sinned against the lord, but it does not give an account of his repentance.”
            Psalm 51 tells that David repented for this specific sin.

            2) “Dont forget, Solomon was the second child of David and Bathsheba, Solomon would never have been born, if David his Father had not murdered Uriah to have his wife.”
            This is not right. If God had planned the birth of Solomon, He would have taken Uriah’s life and David would have ended marrying a widow of Uriah.

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            Im going to squeeze in here and ask something. What did Jesus mean when He said many are called, but few are chosen?

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            everyone is offered chances to be saved,the calling at one time or another will reach everyone, many will recieve,but will allow the cares of this life to pull them away. few will accept with hunger and gladness ,but will not let anything keep them from God. so because of their faithfulness they are chosen vessels and made children of the most High.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            someone is going to say that you are preaching works, but that person is not going to be me!

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I don;t doupt that,although works without faith is dead,faith without works is dead,unless you confess Christ and die 10 minutes later,works is a part of staying in good standing with our Lord.

          • This was in your paragraph titled: concerning solomon re: “…”but we as the Jews,still have to keep seeking God and living according to God’s law,to be saved…”

            May I ask you a personal question? Are you a Jew? I was just wondering. I love the Jewish people. In fact, I support a couple of charities that help Jews. One of them is The Fellowhip of Christians and Jews and the other is The Jerusalem Prayer Team. Both are very good organizations and very responsible. If you do not mind answering, I would like to know.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            no I am not a jew,my comment was to say we as well as the jew,but my typing skills are in terrible shape, sorry I also on occasion,skip a word,by accident,my brain run faster than my fingers on these keys,I type in granny gear!

          • I’m not that great of a typist either. Thank God for DELETE and BACKSPACE.

          • Its ok Joe! I walk in Granny Gear! I am Greatful that you do have fingers to talk with and The same to the rest on this site! I Do not have the elloquence of speach that you all speak in on this site. I Am just a simple woman, Yet I learn much from all on here. Some I feel are over thinking simple issues, but I could be wrong. Yet the Amount of thought you all put into what you state is very inspiring! Sometimes with people like me, the simpler the better! All I know is that My heart is set on Jesus and I will dwell in his house forever. Also, I did have a bit of a Question about the first Church, I was always taught that Many of them were hunted and martyred. The had much to Learn, yet They seemed to me to be very strong believers. Yes some were immature & some fell back but many were willing to Die that deny their faith. I was wondering where you are getting the info on them? Because Paul often Chastized, yet he Also edified them. Just like to learn More. Love in CHrist Jesus, And thank you all for your disscussions, your Sis, Annette

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I also like things in plain words,the bible says lest we come as a little child,we in no ways enter in. I don;t know in great detail of the first church,except the bible outline,but I sure would have loved to been in those early revivals,

          • childofjesus says:

            As you say “If he sinned, he had to bring an animal sacrifice for that sin just like everybody else in Israel.”
            So do you think just by bringing animal sacrifice, God forgave their sin s ?
            This is what God has said regarding sacrifices:
            Isa 1:11 -“The multitude of your sacrifices—
            what are they to me?” says the Lord.
            “I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
            of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
            I have no pleasure
            in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.”
            verse 13: “Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
            Your incense is detestable to me.”

            God is same.He wanted a heart of repentance even from the Israelites.

          • childofjesus says:

            John 15 :5 -“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.”

            John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.”

            We are not to judge other person’s salvation, for we believe that as long as we have life on this earth, we have Hope in Jesus.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            This is true. We are called to make our own calling and election sure. In speaking to THE DISCIPLES, Jesus said to “abide in me, and I in you, so shall you bear much fruit.” Abiding is a decision we make every moment of our lives. If we do not bear fruit, Jesus tells us the Father will cut us off and gather us to be burned. We are appointed to bear fruit, but should we just coast and slack off, we are not going to be fruitful… Just like any job, being employed is one thing, remaining employed is another – and our diligence is required in salvation as well as employment, for we are this day to be about our Father’s business.

            2Peter 1:10 “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:” As Michael mentioned, if we were to say this to anybody else in any other context it would clearly tell us there is no eternal security and once saved is not assurance of always saved.

      • lookingforhope2011 says:

        Ok guys. Got one for you all that just blew my mind. And it kinda of goes with the discussion on here. Im not real familiar with with TB Joshua, but I was on U-Tube and was listening to LB Hicks, then I searched other holiness messages after that and came across this service where TB Joshua is casting out a demon in a woman in the process the demon through the woman is speaking in tongues?. I never knew a demon could do that? Any thoughts?

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          tongues,are not new,but speaking in tongues as the SPIRIT GIVES utterence is a thing altogether different, I saw the clip also,now does it line up with bible ,NO,1st I would not want children or unsaved people around a casting out of a demon,the thing may enter someone unsealed, 2nd,look at the violence,not Christlike, its a show.

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            I wondered about that, especially when the person started acting like a dog sort of

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            don;t you think it strange,no fear from anyone,if a real devil is in this,fear would be everywhere,would you want your children trying to play with devils? in the old days,elders would ask anyone not sealed to leave the room,

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            That’s a very valid ooint

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            anything the Holy Ghost is in,1st will always glorify Jesus,2nd all things will be done in decentcy and in order, anything out of order in not of God! also he sent his deciples in pairs,for a witness in such matters,and a very good idea today,for many reasons.

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            I was taught devils couldn’t speak in tongues because it was our heavenly prayer language. Guess I need to relearn that

        • Timothy Luke says:

          “though I speak with tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, it profits me nothing….” Never said the angels were or were not holy ones… They have their own language, logical ain’t it!

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            if someone spoke to me in german it would be an unknown tongue to me,but it wouldnot have to be of God.he could be cussing me out for all I know. we keep this up,someone may get the idea we agree on something,boy what will the neighbors think, ha ha just kidding bro,

  3. Chris Petersen says:

    1 Cor.14:20 “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.”

    That is to say: how can we “behave unrighteously” [immature/unripe] yet claim to be fully mature [ripe] in righteousness?

    To quote another: “We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” (Aristotle)

    Our former debt for ungodliness has been settled and reconciled in full by the blood of Jesus Christ and is now gone (remembered no more by the Lord) but not forgotten by the recipient of Grace, that we may testify [admit and acknowledge] to our good fortune bestowed on us through the Grace of God by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” This is a Christian’s admission of their PAST, remembered by themselves [but not by the Lord] for testimonial purposes of the Lord’s Grace bestowed on them.

    1 John 3:9-11 “9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (11) For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” Let thy Light so shine that thou mayest be a beacon unto those that knoweth not the way to Life. If we are not “One with God”, then we are as the many who are not.

    1 John 3:1-8 “(1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

    Heb 10:16-27 “(16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (20) By a new and living way [New Way of Life], which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) And having an high priest over the house of God; (22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) (24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

    A Christian should pay diligent attention to verses 18 and 26 (WE MUST ABIDE), the consequences of not Abiding after receiving remission of our sins by the Blood of Jesus Christ and the knowledge of the TRUTH by the Holy Ghost in the verses that follow-on.

    Heb 10:28-31 “(28) He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: (29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. (31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

    Bear in Mind Body and Soul also the following verses:

    Phil 2:15 “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;”

    Phil 3:13-17 “(13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (16) Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. (17) Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.”

    Lord, I knoweth not if I be perfect in thy sight in my sincere endeavour to follow thy Precepts and thy Ways, however granteth me this one prayer for myself: that ye extend my days and I shall give thee my all, to at the very least die trying “Ad finem fidelis”. This I Pray in the name of Jesus Christ. A-MEN.

    May God Bless you all in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

    Christopher John Petersen.

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Well presented! What we see here is the two-fold meaning of 1 John 1:8 and ! John 3:9. Our sins are no longer imputed while we follow the paths of righteousness, but, if we sin willfully after having received grace, there is no more remission. We can be saved and walking in grace – though stumbling in sin, repenting and going forward again – or we can return to the vomit of this world’s sin and be partakers once more of their judgment. Is there an amen on that?

      • Well I just have one question here, then why does the bible say that He is Faithfull even when we are faithless. I think he knew that some would fall & sin again or this would not be in there. Also in the revelation of Jesus Christ he speaks to all the Churches, he tells them what all that he has against them, he sais to repent. I just want to be clear here, For I have been foolish and fallen in my past, yet. He was faithfull to me when I was so foolish. I just don’t want those whom have fallen to think that he will not allow you to return to him. I don’t claim to be perfected yet, but I believe he has not thrown me away for my foolishness. Thank you for your insight. Love, your sis in Christ Jesus, Annette

        • Timothy Luke says:

          If any man cares to return to Him, Jesus is faithful to accept us back… The problem is, that if we harden our hearts, then we will no longer have a desire to return to God, for we are happy with wallowing in the mire once more.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            no man can return unless he is drawn back by the HolyGhost conviction, which man can reject Christ enough,and be turned to a reprobate mind,and never feel the call again, as for most Christ hand is outstreached still,if we stumble and fall, well David was the apple of God’s eye,yet he stumbled often,but had the heart to humble himself and seek God,anyway, David trusted God enough,even when his family was taken by the enemy,he would not go after them,until he got the OK from God,boy how far have we gone from that. now days we charge head first,before praying ,into everything,and find ourself asking God to get us out. and because he loves us,he comes to our rescue,amen

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            no moutains too high nor valleys too deep,in my errors and tribulation, when I can;t see clear, this old man knows only one thing, fall on my knees and call on Jesus,he causes the sea to be still,the mountains to be flat,and the valley to blossem like a rose. If I can stand the pull,Jesus will pull me out.If I cannot stand he covers me with his grace, when I do not understand, I know only one thing,Christ and him crucified,and rose on the third day,for the sins of many,and his blood washes us clean,God throws our sins into the sea of forgetfulness,to remember them no more.as far as the east is to the west he throws our sins away. and makes us brand new! praise the name of JESUS. for I was lost,but now I’m found.

          • Thank you Joe & Tim, love your answers, and Amen to your thoughts Joe, you To are both so beautiful. In my eyes! Very Strong and sincere men of God, I am blessed to know you both! Love your siS in Christ Jesus, Annette

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            your strenth,is in kindness to all who you offer comments,wheather they offer kind or harsh, ,is very Christ like, ” A bruised reed,he did not break”,, we are blessed on this site,for a quiet spirit such as yours, is of a great price,and many here are made better for it, I thank you,

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            To all here. We are a chosen generation a royal priesthood the bible tells us we are. And we have a great blessing in friends here. There are days I could not go on. But your encouragement from helped me. Thank you

        • Chris Petersen says:

          The Parables of “The Good Sheppard” and “The Prodigal Son” should be sufficient to reassure you of your concerns about loosing (your) “The Way To Life” and returning to “The Way To Life”. If it were not so, the Lord would not have said it was so.

          Having returned to “The Way To Life” and ye remember that thou lead others astray, do your very best to regather them to “The Way To Life” also. Also others, should peradventure ye find any besides?

          —–

          TRY A LITTLE KINDNESS by Glenn Campbell.

          “If you see your brother standing by the road,
          with a heavy load, from the seeds he sowed…
          And if you see your sister fallen by the way,
          just stop and say, “You’ve gone the wrong way”.

          Chorus:

          You’ve got to try a little kindness,
          yes show a little kindness,
          Just Shine your Light for everyone to see…
          And if you try a little kindness,
          then you’ll overlook the blindness,
          of the narrow-minded people, on the narrow-minded streets.

          Don’t walk around the down-and-out,
          Lend a helping hand, instead of doubt…
          And the kindness that you show every day,
          Will help someone, along their Way.

          Chorus
          Chorus”

          —–
          It’s not rocket science, God Bless you all in your Endeavours serving the Lord Jesus.

          Christopher John Petersen.

          • childofjesus says:

            I agree that if we repent for our sins, God will forgive us.He will not shun us away, because He loves us.

            He assures us that He is able to forgive our sins.
            Isaiah 1:18 – “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”

            He will not remember any of our sins, and will give us a brand new start.
            Psalm 103:12-“As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.”

            We are very dear to Him. He does not desire to loose any of us.
            This is what He asks : -” Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”(John 15:4).

            He loves our company, however when we sin (go away from the Father’s Presence), it grieves His heart.We repent for it and then again start afresh.God did bless the Israelites with the “Promised Land” (because He is Faithful),but after 40 years in wilderness.

  4. childofjesus says:

    I have known some people (non-christians) who live a pious life.
    In the light of Mathew Chapter 5 verses 21-43,
    * They do not sin when angry.
    * They neither have sexual relations before marriage nor extra marital affair after marriage.
    * Their ‘Yes’ is ‘Yes’ & their ‘No’ is ‘No’.
    * They go extra mile to help people in need.
    * They love people of all cast, creed & religion.
    Following all these, they are “perfect”people.They believe that their “good works” will save their souls for their scripture says “Keep doing the good works & do not worry about its result”.
    But the Bible says in Isaiah 64:6 “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

    Ques : Now, Can we approach such pious people (of good works) without Jesus Christ with the Gospel of Jesus Christ ?
    Ans : YES. Because the Bible says in 1 John 1:8 – “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
    It is a deception of Satan that we are “Sinless” and salvation of soul can be attained by good works.Romans 3:23 says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”.

    Ques : What about saints in Christ who sin ?
    Ans: 1 John 1:6-7 “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
    1 John 2:1-2 ” My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
    1 John 2:6 ” WHOEVER CLAIMS TO LIVE IN HIM MUST LIVE AS JESUS DID”.

    • Childofjesus: Matthew 5 deals with the Israelite nation under the Mosaic Law and backslidden. This is not talking about believers today in the church.
      Isaiah is talking about man without God is an unclean thing and self righteousness is as filthy rags. Life does fade away and sin had taken Israel away.
      Your assessment of 1 John 1:8 and Romans 3:23 I would say is not really right in the proper context of the scripture.
      John was talking to people who did not believe in original sin. If you were to have unconfessed sin in your life and said that, you didn’t you would be lying and be a hypocrite.
      Romans 3:23; Paul was talking about the Jews and Gentiles being on the same level as people born into sin.
      Galatians says, if we walk in the Spirit we won’t fulfill the things of the flesh. Technically, we could live free from the day we become a christian till the day we die. We can also sin as a christian; 1 John 2:1-2.
      1 John 3:7-10; distinguishes the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil. Verse 7 starts out saying: Little children, let no man deceive you he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he (Christ) is righteous. One might say this is right standing with God. but, in verse 6 He says; Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. The condition is abiding in Christ. Verse 9, says Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God. Perfectionist doctrine of some use this scripture and verse 8 to prove that once you become a christian there is no possibility of sinning. This is not true otherwise we would need no advocate. This would conflict with 1 John 2:1-2. It all has to do with abiding in him and living in the Spirit so we won’t fulfill the things of the flesh. We can live sinless; it is a possibility, not a probability.
      We don’t sin because of who we are in Christ and the power of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ that resides in us.
      1 John 2:6: Jesus lived under the Mosaic law and Elizabeth and Zechariah both lived perfect according to the law.Luke 1:6. Jesus also said, to be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.Matthew 5:48 Paul said, he was blameless according to the law. Peter said to follow the Lord in his sufferings and that is why the flesh hath ceased from sin; so we wouldn’t fulfill the lusts of men.
      So it is possible with the power of God to live free from sin. Without it we can live to the frailty of man just like Paul did according to the law mentality in Romans 7.
      Just because one remains sinless because of abiding in Christ doesn’t mean they are proud or a super christian. We are all to remain humble and be a super natural christian.
      God Bless! Jerry Kelso
      Th

      • childofjesus says:

        Hi Jerry !
        In reply to “Matthew 5 deals with the Israelite nation under the Mosaic Law”
        I believe that God’s Word is a Living Word. It spoke to us Yesterday, is speaking Today & will speak for the rest of our lives.

        Elaboration on my assessment of 1Jn 1:8 & Rom 3:23
        I live in India where majority of them are Hindus (most of them i have known are pious people). Now, whenever we discuss on the topic “God”, they match with teachings of Jesus Christ in every way. They believe that they are “Sinless” & their good works will bring good results for their souls..but i say that it is not good works but FAITH IN JESUS that will bring salvation to their souls.

        Let me ask you “Have you ever shared the Gospel with non-christian ? If yes, what are the challenges you face ? If no, then suggest some tips (Bible verses).

        In Christ
        Shanta

        • lookingforhope2011 says:

          When I was a strong Christian and shared with those who didn’t believe and with those who thought good works would get them to heaven the challenges were always they had their belief and I had mine. But in those days God gave me a verse. That His Word would not return to Him void. And that I might not see their salvation personally. But His Word would accomplish that which it was sent to do. My mom prayed behind the scenes years ago for my deliverance from drugs. Finally four years later it happened. She wasn’t there when it happened. But Jesus was. And it was instantaneous. So take heart. He ia on the throne. Even though I wonder sometimes why He takes so long to show up! But I guess its not meant for me to know.

        • Hi Shanta, The whole bible is for us in the right context. One must understand the historical context and what age it was spoken in etc. before they can understand what it means for us today. This is due to gradual revelation in a different age.
          Under each age people were saved by grace through faith but, had a different revelation. This is why Romans 2 mentions the way God will judge each age; some by their conscience, others through the written law and us by our secrets according to the death, burial, and resurrection.
          Under the Mosaic law they didn’t attain to salvation by good works but, they still had to do something to attain something. Romans says The righteousness of the law was those who live them must do them Today, we do because of who we are in Christ and the power that resides in us through the power of a risen Lord. This is why people whol thinks Jesus taught the new covenant and that it is the same exact gospel as ours across the board get a works mentality. Too, one must understand that Israel had a covenant of specific blessings and cursing which the church doesn’t have. They were also backslidden. The true church is never backslidden and the gates of hell shall never prevail against it and it has never been trodden down. Israel has been trodden down.
          If one doesn’t understand the jews under the old covenant they won’t understand the new covenant under which we live and they definitely won’t understand Jesus teachings under the law.
          I would dare say that all other religions of the world are about good works. This is because they are false and don’t deal with the creator in a personal relationship of love. Most of their outlook is that their God is so big that one cannot attain to them. It is true God is infinite and we cannot completely understand him since he is infinite and we are finite. With that said, he created us in his image and wants a personal relationship of love with his children. In this way we can know much about God and realize while far above our comprehension, he is personal. This is not really true with false Gods. This is why God has had to go through gradual revelation for man to help me understand about life with him. There are many other reasons but, this is one many miss because they are not taught the proper context of why God has done what he has done and has to, to get us back to the basic original state of perfection with him.
          Most, of the time you talk to people is a matter of striking up a general conversation and usually it will lead to a moment of sharing some kind of pain of some kind of trial in their life. Pain is relative to humans and their pain is just as big and important as the next person, even if we were to equate it as less. This is why Rick Warren’s book; A Purpose Driven Life was so successful. An old message adapted to present day vernacular and understanding. This is why knowledge of the word is so important. Relationship must be coupled with this. Knowledge by itself puffs up and will have no love and relationship without knowledge of the word, one can run the risk of being ignorant of Satan’s devices.
          We need to be able to help people and be ready to give a word for the Lord. We do rely on the Holy Spirit and the Spirit convicts but, it still an advantage to have the understanding of the word.
          Situations are different but, as long as we follow the leading of the Spirit we are never alone and don’t have to be afraid. Trials will get to the heart of a person and where they are at in their relationship with Christ and will be an opportunity to share Jesus love with unbelievers as well.
          There is no set way to share with people, but, as I say, you can go through the context of pain and trials, and the context of that person and where they are at, what kind of life they lead, what they believe, etc.
          You already understand the culture and belief of a hindu that doesn’t serve God. It is important to understand what the bible says and how it contrasts with their beliefs. There are some things that are similar but, may be slightly different. For example, works is important but, it important to show there proper context according to Christ finished work. If you have ever seen Kirk Cameron on The Way program he uses the Mosaic Law to win them to Christ. Romans 7 shows the weakness of the law which dealt with works because the law of sin and death took advantage of the Mosaic Law that was Holy and Good and made them live to the frailty of man. The commandment, Thou shalt not was holy and good but, it couldn’t help the people attain to it. The power of the risen Lord does. Allow grace to produce in our lives instead of self effort. We don’t do the works to attain to the commandment, but, we do because of love and the works follow. There are many other things but, I have to go but, let me know if that helps. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • childofjesus says:

            The most important thing that we have to emphasis is that we need to have personal relationship with God through Lord Jesus Christ!!

          • Shanta, Salvation-Relationship-Prayer-Knowledge of the Word-Power of the Holy Spirit Baptism-Church.
            Salvation is a promise of freedom from sin.
            This starts our relationship with Christ.
            Prayer is the vehicle to engage in relationship with Christ and spiritual battle against the enemy.
            Knowledge of the Word helps us to be ready to give a word for Christ and helps us understand our purpose and destiny in this world and helps us to not be ignorant of Satan’s devices and helps us to grow and become discipled in Christ.
            The Holy Spirit Baptism gets all the dross out of our life so we can live a holy and sanctified life of greater power in Christ.
            These are individual graces that we should have. The church is the outside source which contributes to our lives as a support system which helps us stay plugged in and lifted up and accountable in many ways.
            God bless you in your God adventure of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please him. Hebrews 11:6. God bless! Jerry Kelso

          • childofjesus says:

            Thank you Jerry for Sharing..
            Also I would like to add
            I came to Jesus, and I drank
            Of that life-giving stream;
            My thirst was quenched, my soul revived,
            And now I live in Him. –Bonar

      • bornagainbytheblood says:

        Jerry – you’re right about Zacharias and Elizabeth: And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless (Luke 1:6).

        Yes, we are called to be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. This is to be preached and practised in the Church; however, instead, the weakness of the flesh is sympathized nowadays. The devil is the sympathizer; but Jesus didn’t endure the Cross to sympathize with our sin nature, but rather to sacrifice Himself as an offering, a sweetsmelling savour to God so the captives can be set free by His divine blood; there is now therefore no more excuse to commit sin.

        • bornagainbytheblood, Amen to no more excuse to committing sin for we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. Romans 8:37.1 Peter 4:1-2: Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same mind for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
          God Bless! Jerry Kelso

  5. vain_imagination says:

    Hey Timothy Luke, I noticed you were online!

    I’m new here and have a question about part of your post. Please understand, as a newbie here, I’m not questioning “you”, I’m just looking for clarification.

    Where you wrote, “Sin is ANY deviation of that love, small, or great, in Word, Thought, or Deed. The word often used for ‘sin’ in the Bible means, “missing the mark.” The ‘mark’ is ‘love’.”

    What do you mean when you say,
    1) ‘sin’ in the Bible means, “MISSING the MARK.”
    2) The ‘MARK’ is ‘LOVE’.

    Yes, the ALL CAPS is my emphasis and not the way you wrote it…you emphasized with ” ” marks.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer…this is just a personal curiosity/clarification.

    • Timothy Luke says:

      In ‘missing the mark,’ I had the hebrew word “chata” in mind. It is often translated “sin”. It means, “to miss”. We are missing the true standard set for us by the Creator who loves us and wants the very best for us.
      When I say, “the mark is love,” I am merely taking 1 John 2:4 that says, “sin is the transgression of the law,” combining it with the summation of God’s law, which in one word is “love,” and concluding that walking outside of the law is to walk outside of love. If I were an arrow, heading toward a target, and I walk outside the law of love, I will miss the mark, or target.
      I don’t know if that is what you were seeking, or if it answers you, or gives rise to further questions, but feel free to follow up. What does it bring to mind?

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Welcome sister! Sorry I missed you while you were online. I use multiple tabs for browsing and must have been on a different tab. Join in the community!

  6. lookinforacity says:

    Psa 32:1,2
    1) Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
    2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD (IMPUTETH NOT INIQUITY), and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    IMPUTETH:
    H2803
    חשׁב
    châshab
    khaw-shab’
    To regard, value, compute: – (make) account (of), consider, count, esteem, hold, impute, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think.

    Rom 4:8
    Blessed is the man to whom the Lord (WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN).

    IMPUTE:
    G3049
    λογίζομαι
    logizomai
    log-id’-zom-ahee
    to take an inventory, that is, estimate (literally or figuratively): – conclude, (ac-) count (of), + impute, lay, number, reckon, suppose, think (on).

    Rom 5:13
    (For until the law sin was in the world: but (SIN IS NOT IMPUTED) when there is no law.

    IMPUTED:
    G1677
    ἐλλογέω
    ellogeō
    el-log-eh’-o
    (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: – impute, put on account.

    Gal 2:19
    For I through the law am (DEAD TO THE LAW), that I might live unto God.

    Rom 6:7
    For he that is (DEAD IS FREED FROM SIN).

    Rom 4:15
    Because the law worketh wrath: for where (NO LAW) is, there is (NO TRANSGRESSION).

    If then, there is no Transgression (SIN), because we (Christians) are dead to the law, and we all know, sin is not Imputed where there is no law.
    How then can it be said, a Christian can sin, when John clearly states.

    1Jn 3:9
    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Where it says:
    Rom 5:13
    (For until the law sin was in the world: but (SIN IS NOT IMPUTED) when there is no law.

    1) From Noah, until the law was given to Moses, sin even though it was in the world, was not imputed.
    Everyone died physically as part of the curse, with no judgement of hell.

    2) From Moses, until the law was nailed to the cross by Jesus, sin was imputed.

    3) But from Jesus, until the return of Jesus, only those having accepted the sacrifice for sin made by Jesus, are free from sin.

    In essence, a Christian cannot sin.

    It is not that The Law has ceased to exist, because to those that have not Salvation they are still under the law, but in relation to Christians, the Law has been written upon our hearts and in our minds.

    Heb 10:16,17
    16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    Rom 2:14,15
    14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    Rom 8:4
    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    JIM

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Jim, it appears to me that you are not taking into account that Christians face a daily choice of whether to walk in the flesh, or walk in the spirit. Romans 6:15-16 entreats the church to walk in the spirit and not according to the lusts of the flesh. Christians have a choice in whom they may serve, whereas the world, without Christ has many options of what manner of sin to pursue, but no access to righteousness apart from Jesus. Why do text after text exhort Christians to righteousness and obedience, if these things are as completely accomplished as you use these scriptures to make it appear? I think you are not taking in the whole counsel of God on this, while presenting something that is twisted… for I hear you saying Christians are not in peril of sinning anymore. Is this what you are saying? or am I (yet again) mistaken?

      • lookinforacity says:

        Hi TIM

        I have taken very great care as to not read into scripture, something that it does not say, having used 11 scriptures that say what “they” say.
        The scriptures I have used, do not (Allude to ), what I believe the speaker is talking about, or (give an Inference) as to what I believe the speaker was in fact saying.
        Therefore when I post, I use as much scripture as I can, letting it (Scripture) speak for itself, with as little Interpretation from myself as I possibly can, letting the reader, either accept or reject what “Scripture” itself actually does say on the matter being discussed.

        So when you say I have twisted, I do not understand what your talking about.
        I have posted verbatim what scripture says, having used the whole council of the New Testament, because when we are speaking about forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ, in relation to Believers, that is where the answers are to be found.
        The statements made in these scriptures, cannot be misconstrued as to mean something, other than what they say.

        In closing, the one scripture that says where I stand on this question.
        1Jn 3:9
        Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

        It appears now though, the topic has come to the question of “FREE WILL” being no longer a question whether or not a Christian can sin, but whether or not they want to.

        Owing to the fact, you have raised the question of free will, I will let you state your case for the affirmative position.

        Be Blessed
        JIM

        • Timothy Luke says:

          Jim, I really like that you use many scriptures in your posts. I know you are in the Word and are thoughtful about it. I am thoughtful about the words I use as are you. Please understand that I did not say you were twisting anything, I was saying that I thought you were presenting something that is twisted… in the integrity of your heart, I do not believe you see the twist, and you are faithful in your representation. I believe we are all seeking a clear understanding of what is true at the end of the day. The best thing for me is to be shown my error, as at the end of the day I am a richer person for having found new (to me) truth.
          If one takes 1 John 3:9 the way you do, then I do not see any need for exhortation to believers to press toward the mark of the prize of our high calling, or to not faint. If your understanding is correct on this verse, to me it makes Galatians 6:1 totally irrelevant, contradictory and out of place when we are told that if we see a brother overtaken in a fault, we are to go to them in meekness, being aware, lest we too be overtaken. How do these verses fit into the context of your belief (for you have reconciled them somehow, I imagine)
          Thanks for your patience. This is quite the topic. And, I AM thinking of and considering what you, Joe and others are saying…
          Shalom,
          Tim

          • lookinforacity says:

            TIm

            I am confident that it can agreed upon, each verse in the context in which they were used, can stand on their own as TRUTH, otherwise one or the other, is not truth at all.
            Therefore, we cannot throw out either of these two verses 1 John 3:9Galatians 6:1.
            So starting from the premise, both of these verses are True, why then, are they at variance with one another?
            What is it, which seemingly makes them appear to disagree, or even contradict each other?

            I believe the only disparity found between these verses, is only to be found in the Interpretation of them.
            So then, my solution to this impasse would be, to investigate separately the verses in question, arriving at an Interpretation which would bring both verses into harmony, thereby nullifying any contradiction which now seemingly exists.

            You choose which verse should be discussed first, the verse you have the most confidence in.

            JIM

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Gallatians 6:1 reads, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, *restore* such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. ”
            This verse is addressing saints who need to be restored, because you cannot “restore” something to a condition it never was in before…. I thought that was obvious, but I can see where you may believe it is talking of men outside the church. So, further context:
            Gal 6:7 *Be not deceived;* God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
            Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
            Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season *we shall reap, if we faint not.*
            This whole section is written as exhortation to saints to “be not deceived” and “let us not be weary in well doing” for “we shall reap if we faint not.”
            If you are saying saints can no longer commit any sin, and Paul believed that, then there would be no place for him to even consider that saints might “be deceived” for the seed of God is in them and they cannot sin. WHY ON EARTH WOULD PAUL WASTE TIME TELLING THEM TO NOT DO SOMETHING THEY COULD NOT POSSIBLY DO ANYWAY? (not yelling, just that there was no bold type option).
            What is the result of them fainting? It is that they shall not reap the reward. This is addressed to saints and it gives the option of not reaping the reward of sainthood if they grow weary and cease along the way… that would be impossible under your interpretation of 1 John 3:9, would it not?
            Your turn/

          • lookinforacity says:

            TIM

            Galatians 6:1 reads, “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, *restore* such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. ”

            Your belief, seems to automatically assume, a fault means sin and only sin, how can we determine if this person has in truth sinned or not?
            Through studying this question over the years, I have come to the conclusion, Paul had no compunction about saying the word “sin” when that is what he was talking about. But in this instance Paul uses the word “fault”.
            Let’s look at the fault of this person logically, Paul warns “ye which are spiritual” “consider thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”

            At this point, you personally, in all of your ministry to others, either in deliverance of others, or in witnessing to those who are lost, have you ever been TEMPTED by the sin they were committing in their lives?

            The question would then follow, if not sin, what would this fault be, that which could possibly be a temptation to those who are spiritual and do not consider that they too can be tempted?
            Try to think of the sins which were prevalent in those days, which ones would you consider as could be a temptation to those spiritual.

            On the other hand, what if we took a look back at chapter 5.
            Gal 5:1
            Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
            Read all of Gal.5.

            The yoke being spoken of in this verse is law, the same as the yoke Jesus said we should take from him, His law of love. Mat.11:29.
            The yoke of bondage is not sin, as some may suppose
            The other 5 times yoke is used is the same definition, only 1 has a different definition, and it refers to a yoke of oxen.

            Therefore the “fault” could be what the Judaisers were doing in the Church, causing people to follow law, tradition, ritual.

            Act 15:1
            And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

            And even in Galatians 6 itself.
            Gal 6:12,13
            12) As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
            13) For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

            I ask you then, could the spiritual ones have been tempted to do the same as the one which was in a fault, if what he was trying to do was, live as a Jew in order to be a better Christian, don’t we see the same today, in some Messianic movements?

            This makes more sense to me, as to the fault someone would need to be restored from. As you say
            “This verse is addressing saints who need to be restored, because you cannot “restore” something to a condition it never was in before…. I thought that was obvious.” So, further context:
            Acts 15:24 – – Acts 16:3 – – 1 Cor. 7:18 – – Gal. 2:3 – – Gal. 5:2 – – Gal. 5:3 and
            Last but by no means least.
            Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

            when you say.
            “This whole section is written as exhortation to saints to “be not deceived” and “let us not be weary in well doing” for “we shall reap if we faint not.”

            What would be the deception they need to be warned about, (SIN)?
            As I said before Paul was not shy about using the word.
            And his saying don’t be weary in doing well.
            Wouldn’t the doing well, entail walking in the Spirit, demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit, and fainting not in continuing to do so, because if you do, you will reap the reward?
            Where the drawing back, the being deceived into trying to keep the law is death. This would be closer to what we call APOSTASY, than sin.

            Rom 8:2
            For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

            What is it, that causes you to use (Fault, Deceived, Growing weary, Faint), if not synonyms for Sin, then only in a very close connection to Sin?

            My belief is, a verse must first be understood in the context in which it has been originally used, or used in conjunction with another scripture to substantiate the understanding.
            Furthermore, scripture should not be used to disprove another scripture, because the premise is, holy men of God have spoken, both Old, and New Testament, as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Therefore every word of scripture is to be understood as truth, they cannot be used to prove another one as un-true.

            With that said, all the time we use one scripture, which we believe refutes what someone else says a scripture means.
            The conflict between both, has the common ground of INTERPRETATION of the believers.
            The supposed contradictions we debate, usually have their conception in the Denominational Doctrines we have been taught, if not from our physical birth, (such as a Catholic) it would be from our Spiritual birth (such as a bible teacher) in a Pentecostal or Baptist church.
            Either way, we have been taught something, and because we don’t have the knowledge of Scripture to question, we have no other choice than to believe that which we have been taught to be truth, even though it may not be. So we come to a question, with prejudice, or in other words we Pre – Judge others belief, by our own, assuming theirs is wrong.

            Can you accept my Interpretation of this verse?
            Not sin in the life of the believer, but the believer having been deceived by false teachers come in unawares.

            Your court.

            JIM

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Jim, on this one point, yes, a fault is a sin. Holiness is perfect love. Any flaw to perfection is deviation, hence a missing of the mark, and sin. He who violates one point of the law violates all of it. You follow the context, do we get tempted to ‘faults’? or to sin?
            You are correct that the fault “could be” Judaisers who were seeking to bring others back to legalsim. That fault would be sin, as it leads to death, which conveniently is the same result of sin.

            “What is it, that causes you to use (Fault, Deceived, Growing weary, Faint), if not synonyms for Sin, then only in a very close connection to Sin?”
            Great question, it gets to the core of where I am coming from…
            God is HOLY. He is PERFECT. God is LOVE.
            Lucifer was perfect in all his ways until iniquity (lawlessness) was found in him. Any deviation from the perfection of God is sin. So, Sin is the genis, and ‘fault’, “apostacy” “deception” “fainting””growing weary” are subsets – as they are not attributes of the One Holy and True God to whom we are called to emmulate. They are all inroads and openings to the full expression of deeper and graver sins that we all see clearly when they run their course.
            “God is spirit, and he desires those who worship him to worship in spirit and in truth.

  7. lookinforacity says:

    I will grant, that the people John was writing to, in (1-2-3 John) were Christians, and from what we know about the history of the first Church, they probably were also predominately Jewish believers. Paul’s ministry was to the Gentiles.
    Church Scholars are of the opinion, that at this time the Church was having difficulties, due to Gnosticism’s infiltration of the Church.
    Therefore when we do look at 1John, we see that even though these people might be Christians, he does not know them. From his words, it seems as though he does not have confidence in their knowledge of Salvation as he sees it. Therefore in verse 3 we hear him making a rather odd statement to these people, if he did have full confidence in them.

    1Jn 1:3
    That which we have seen and heard (DECLARE WE UNTO YOU), (THAT YE ALSO MAY HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH US): and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    Then in verse 6 he begins to lay out, what could be called a Salvation message, making sure they know where they come from, starting in verse 8 – 10.

    JIM

    • The question is how is a homosexual sinning if they don’t act on the desire to practice homosexuality. The answer is, In worshipping their Body instead of God they sin. That’s why God handed them over to their desires. I have known many kind people who are homosexuals yet they truely desire to worship whom they want God to be, Not who he is. It is not much different with many heterosexuals anymore either. Do I hate them No But I will not say its fine because according to the bible, it is not A good thing, it is an abomanation. A Nation destroyer. Does it make me want to harm them No. It would do No good & it is not good to try to physically harm others because they do not believe as I do. YET; I have had threats against me because I believe it is not good so tell me. I understand being tempted and I have said no. But without Jesus, I would have easily fallen. But turning all of who you are over to Jesus and allowing him to live in you Is the only way overcome it.

      • lookinforacity says:

        Hi Annette

        The question originally asked was.
        1) If a Homosexual abstains from any and all sexual activity, is he still a transgressor of the Law?
        2) Or does a Homosexual transgress the Law by the mere fact he is a Homosexual?

        You say.
        “Do I hate them No But according to the bible, it is an abomination.”

        These too are Abomination unto the Lord.

        Deu 25:13,14,16
        13) Thou shalt not have in thy bag divers weights, a great and a small.
        14) Thou shalt not have in thine house divers measures, a great and a small.
        16) For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

        Pro 11:1
        A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
        Pro 20:10
        Divers weights, and divers measures, both of them are alike abomination to the LORD.

        Pro 21:27
        The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

        Pro 6:16-19
        16) These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
        17) A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
        18) An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
        19) A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

        Pro 11:20
        They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight.

        Pro 12:22
        Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

        Pro 15:8,9
        8.) The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
        9) The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.

        Pro 15:26
        The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.

        Pro 16:5
        Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.

        Pro 17:15
        He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

        Do we therefore, judge these with the same judgement, by which we have always judged the homosexual, because what they do is abomination also?

        You say
        “That’s why God handed them over to their desires.”

        Did God really hand homosexuals over to their desires?

        Rom 1:18,19
        18) For (THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN) (AGAINST ALL UNGODLINESS AND UNRIGHTEOUSNESS OF MEN), who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
        19) (BECAUSE THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN IF GOD IS MANIFEST IN THEM); for God hath shewed it unto them.

        Rom 1:25,26
        25) (WHO CHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD INTO A LIE), and (WORSHIPPED AND SERVED THE CREATURE MORE THAT THE CREATOR), who is blessed for ever. Amen.
        26) (FOR THIS CAUSE GOD GAVE THEM UP UNTO VILE AFFECTIONS): for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

        You say.
        “I have known many kind homosexuals yet they truly desire to worship whom they want God to be, Not who he is.”

        Rom 1:28
        And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, (GOD GAVE THEM OVER TO A REPROBATE MIND), to do those things which are not convenient;

        That is a position of a practicing homosexual, one that is still living in the lifestyle.
        Not the position of the one in the question, one who is abstaining from any and all sexual activity, attempting to not live in the lifestyle.

        You say.
        “I understand being tempted and I have said no. But without Jesus, I would have easily fallen. But turning all of who you are over to Jesus and allowing him to live in you Is the only way overcome it.”

        I do not believe a person can be tempted into homosexuality, could you, or anyone you know who is not a homosexual, be tempted into that lifestyle?
        I believe it is a curse God pronounced upon mankind, because of ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, who worship the creature more than the Creator.
        Sports, Music, Art, Literature, all have there heroes who people do worship.

        Rom 1:19
        Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

        Be Blessed
        JIM

  8. lookinforacity says:

    What if, for clarity of understanding, and the sake of this discussion on “Sin and Saint”, that everyone agree to at all times, when using the word Christian, acknowledge he is totally Blood Washed, Born Again, Saved.
    That way there is no confusion as to who we are speaking of, rather than having to make the distinction each and every time we speak.

    Tim said
    “What is the law? “Love.” Love for God, Love for neighbor – whether friend or foe.”

    Rom 13:10
    Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

    Love is the keeping (FULFILLING) of the Law, but should not be misconstrued as the definition, of what Law is.
    As example
    1) How does a Homosexual work ill to his neighbor, how does he transgress the Law?
    2) If a Homosexual abstains from any and all sexual activity, is he still a transgressor of the Law?
    3) Or does a Homosexual transgress the Law by the mere fact he is a Homosexual?

    Hebrew definition of LAW
    H8451
    תּרה תּורה
    tôrâh tôrâh
    to-raw’, to-raw’
    From H3384; (A PRECEPT OR STATUTE), especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: – law.

    H3384
    ירא ירה
    yârâh yârâ’
    yaw-raw’, yaw-raw’
    A primitive root; properly to flow as water (that is, to rain); transitively to lay or throw (especially an arrow, that is, to shoot); figuratively (TO POINT OUT) (as if by aiming the finger), (TO TEACH): – (+) archer, cast, (DIRECT, INFORM, INSTRUCT, SHEW, TEACH -er, -ing).

    Greek definition of LAW
    G3551
    νόμος
    nomos
    nom’-os
    From a primary word νέμω nemō (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage, eg, THE MAKING OR GIVING DIRECTIONS, LAWS, OR RULES, GENERALLY REGULATION), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): – law.

    Be Blessed
    JIM

  9. bornagainbytheblood says:

    For those who profess the “everybody sins” doctrine, the only verse they can try to hang their argument upon is 1 John 8. However, that verse is misunderstood because it would not contradict the many other verses that declare sin is unacceptable. By the way, Romans chapter 7 is not a chapter where Paul delves into his sinning, but, rather, is a description of his battle when he was under the Law. Paul lived free from sin when he found grace through Christ Jesus.

    • Born again by the Blood: 1 John 8 is misunderstood. The context is that John is talking to those who didn’t believe in original sin. They said they had no sin because they didn’t believe they were born sinners by way of Adam. If a christian sin and says he has no sin he would be a liar. I have met people who believe that once they got saved it was impossible to sin.They believed this because of 1 John 3:8. The principle though is found in abiding in Christ.
      The truth is technically that a person could live free from sin all their christian life. It is a possibility, not a probability; Walk in the spirit and you won’t fulfill the things of the flesh. One thing that can be said that always holds true is that we were born into sin because of Adam. Romans 5 bears this out.
      At the same time, 1John 2 sa if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father who is the propiation, not for our sins only, but, the sins of the whole world.
      So it is possible to live free from sin as a christian and it is possible to sin as a christian. One depends on abiding and the other is when you give into temptation as James talks about. All are products of original sin from Adam and are declared as sinners until we are born again.
      If we sin a sin that separates us from God that would effect our salvation then this would fall in line with you can serve only one master.It is an oxymoron to say you are a sinner and a saint at the same time. Another words a truthful is not a liar; why? Because he is truthful. But, a truthful person could tell a lie.
      The level a person can sin? It only took one sin of Adam to get them thrown out of the garden and bring sin into the picture for the human race. Today, as children of the Lord, he chastens us and if we accept his chastening he treats us like his child if we don’t, then he says we are more or less bastards. If we get into a stronghold and don’t shake it we run the risk of the laws of desensitization and degradation to where it will become a part of us and we won’t recognize we are doing anything wrong or we may lose the will to try and overcome and the Spirit may leave us alone or we could get so harden that we become reprobates. At what point? For a professor or someone who is straddling the fence in somewhat of a little ignorance it probably would be quicker than someone who is trying but, succumbing to weakness or lack of discipline or just plain trusting God.
      The Bible talk about strongholds and casting down imaginations when your obedience is fulfilled. We must recognize sin, ask for forgiveness and get deliverance. Ongoing obedience will mark if we are delivered or not.
      Some people can recognize when they are getting close to a point of no return, others cannot. This is why we need to understand not to take advantage of Grace, not be ignorant of Satan’s devices, and not live under the spirit of the law mentality. The biggest battle is in the mind. Paul said he beat himself into subjection. Whatever it takes, stay in grace. Pray or become prey.
      I agree with you that Romans 7 is Paul under the Mosaic Law. The reason is that the Mosaic Law was taken advantage of by the Law of Sin and Death which made them live to the frailty of man. Romans 8 says, the Law of Sin and Death was done away with by the law of the Spirit. It doesn’t mean we can’t get back in that same frailty but, it is not our example. The covenants are built on better promises, it doesn’t mean that we are invincible. Only through Christ are we invincible. So God is not the problem, but, it is us. We have to do our part by allowing grace and the power of God to work through us, instead of trying in our own strength without God. Being a christian is who we are in Christ and through his power of his finished work on the cross and his resurrection. It is not about what we are doing; we do because of who and whose we are and what he did. Peter said, we have ceased from sin by the things we suffer so we won’t be spending all our lives struggling with the lusts of man and we can stay focused on fulfilling our purpose and destiny. That is for those who think they can’t help but sin because they are only human mindset. Be Free! Jerry Kelso

  10. Holyroller_11 says:

    can a christian sin,if he allows his self to sin YES,if he has to sin NO,therefore both is right,paul was talkng to many people, some professing and some posessing,there is a difference here also, a blood washed saint has a mind to decide to sin,but the sin nature of Adam is removed by the HolyGhost when a professer,decides to want a real tranforming experience with God,1 on 1, and to go and sin is a choice and is quickly brought to our attention before we sin, as a posesser. can I jump off a bridge yes,do I have to no. does a drug addict chose to be after he is hooked,no he is bound and much have it or suffer ,a blood washed drug addict is no longer bound,so his ropes are cut,can he return to it yes,but by choice,only. there is no mystery here. the only snag is seeking to be free or drag on fighting a losing battle with our own old nature,without being changed by the blood. and continueing in this state,is as hiding a talent,and producing nothing, the END result is death. instead of the subject of sin and saint, It should be BLOOD WASHED or NOT,then MAYBE,this will be more understood

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