Paganism

I understand that paganism is a growing religious force in the world today. Also, there are quite a number of forms of paganism – Druidism, Wicca, Witchcraft  just to name a few. Perhaps you feel that your rituals and other spiritual activities will help to save the Earth from self-destruction. You may distrust Christianity for quite a few reasons. You can't stand the doctrine of eternal punishment, and you probably feel that most Monotheistic religions, especially Christianity, are a hindrance to spiritual development.

Most pagans are polytheists (they acknowledge and worship more than one god or goddess). You probably believe that these divine powers are within you and you need to get into harmony with them. You may be a Nature-Worshipper of some form.

Some Preliminaries

1. Points we may have in common.

a. We believe in the reality of a spiritual world that exists now in parallel with the physical universe. Many churches are spiritually dead – emphasizing "club rules" and not a personal encounter with the divine. But more and more churches are coming alive and are learning what it means to have a relationship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has greater power than all the rest of the angels and demons combined.

b. We believe that it is good for us to care for our environment. As a Christian, I believe that God gave us this world to look after and enjoy, but not to abuse. So I would sympathise with attempts to limit ecological destruction and the spread of pollution. In my view it is sinful to ruin the environment for personal or corporate profit. The Bible talks of God "destroying those who destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:18).

But the very fact that we have potential to harm Nature proves to me that Nature itself is not divine. A deity which can be destroyed is not worth worshipping. Christians see the beautiful things in Nature as part of the "created order". Just as a beautiful musical piece points to the existence of a gifted and creative composer, so Nature points us to am infinitely wise, good and caring Creator.

The basic error is to "worship that which is created instead of the Creator". Which is better – the work of art or the artist, the book or the author, the created or the Creator? To worship that which is created is to be truly out of harmony with the Creator and that which is truly enduring and eternal.

Our God has been answering prayers and doing wonders since the world began. Whether you like it or not, there is nothing you can do to directly harm Him. Surely one day you will stand before Almighty God and give an account for your life, even including your secret thoughts. What will you say then?

c. I believe that Christians should not seek political power in order to persecute those with other beliefs. As this has been done by the Historical Church over the years, all I can say is I'm sorry and hope not to be a part of such a thing. As Christians we DO have our standards of beliefs and ethics, but hopefully Christians will realise that the weapons with which we attack deception and evil are primarily spiritual. Our swords are made of words, not metal.

A truly wise Christian does not get involved in "witch hunts". "He who searches for evil, it will surely come to him." A lot of innocent people have been killed, especially by the apostate Roman Catholic Church during the middle ages. It was not only witches, but also many innocent people AND many born-again evangelical believers that were tortured and put to death by the Inquisition.

Of course a Christian who knows the Bible rejects many of the fundamental tenets of paganism. We believe though that these tenets must be demonstrated to be wrong. Our God is greater than all of your gods put together. And of course, our Ultimate Victory will be when Jesus Christ returns as King and Judge. Until then the Kingdom of God will only manifest in part, mostly where it is welcomed and embraced. We will continue in prayer and fasting, Christian meditation and acts of truth and mercy so that more and more may taste of the goodness of God personally before it is too late.

As for the spiritual harm that some pagans do through witchcraft and magical arts, God is well able to deal with that and return any curses back to the sender. We will pray on for you that you will have a revelation of God's love and truth before it is too late.

WHAT ARE SOME PAGAN BELIEFS?

Pagans reject the Judaeo-Christian God of the Bible for alternative gods and goddesses. I'm not sure what the reason is for this in most case. Many if not most pagans do not believe in the existence of Satan, or the devil. For example, I get mail on a fairly regular basis from Wiccans who assure me that they do not worship Satan or the devil. You can read some of it here.

Read messages from Wiccans who have read this page and responded.

To give a full report of the many and varied beliefs in various pagan systems is outside the scope of this website. I realise that some of the comments I make may be applicable to some pagans, but not others. I have found, even from reading the mail sent to me by many, that there are conflicting claims about what it means to be a witch and who has the right to be called such, and so on.

Some pagans just find our God unreasonable and his interdictions against witchcraft cruel and narrow-minded. Others feel that our God might be OK as long as He makes us happy on our path, and leaves them on theirs. Others would strongly contend that He doesn't exist.

To the first group, I say, the truth is not a matter of personal preference, and there may be good reasons for God to forbid witchcraft – but you don't know those reasons and refuse to trust the God who said those things against witchcraft. But, if our God exists (and there is abundant evidence that He really does), your personal preference for rebellion against Him won't be respected as a valid objection to His rule, on the Last Day of judgment. Be sure of that. Its pretty arrogant really to suppose that your opinion would be wiser than that of Almighty God who made heaven and earth, and knows all things.

To the second group, who feel that our God might be OK as long as He makes us feel good and leaves you alone, I say this: if our God, the God of the Bible, actually exists, He will not "leave you alone" but you shall surely come and give an account of your life to Him. As for us, we will pray for your salvation and we are willing to share what we believe and what we have experienced, as well as the message we treasure concerning our Lord Jesus Christ. We won't FORCE you to believe anything – we don't have that power anyway, but we will try to be PERSUASIVE, so that, by all means, a few more might be saved from the wrath to come.

To the third group, I say: if you have any reason for believing in the existence of your own gods and goddesses, we have more reasons to believe in our God. For how many hundreds of thousands have experienced the miraculous power in the name of Jesus Christ, have had their lives changed, as well as their intellects challenged by the evidence which is there for all who refuse to be ignorant concerning these things. My testimonies pages contains just a few hundred examples – this is just a drop in the bucket. Greatest of all miracles is the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. You need to come to terms with that historical event and only then choose your religion.

PROBLEMS WITH PAGAN BELIEFS

1. How can you be sure that your "gods" are not deceiving you?

That there are spiritual forces behind the various gods of men no informed Christian would deny. But how can you be sure that these spirits are who they say they are? If they make you feel good at times when worshiping them does that make those spirits good? Even Satanists "feel good" when they perform the most horrible things. An evil spirit has the power to give a buzz, a thrill, a surge of power or whatever. They have a limited power to give people what they want also – be it fame, fortune or power. However, all those things are only temporal and will pass away forever.

If you are communicating with spirits by whatever means, let me ask you: Has your spirit always told you the truth? Did it work out always the way the spirit said it would? Has it ever seemed to you that the spirit was somehow mocking you? If so, all this should be a clue as to the deceptive nature of the spirits with which you have entered into contact.

Just because you can't see the God or the devil doesn't mean they can't see you. Just because you don't believe in their existence doesn't mean you can't deal with them, and they can't deal with you. Remember the ostrich, which puts its head in the sand. The ostrich thinks, because he can't see you, you can't see him!

I say that if your spirits deny that Jesus Christ of Nazareth came in the flesh and is now Lord and God that they are LIARS. Those spirits have come to seduce, enslave and destroy you (its a progressive action). For God's sake wake up! If those spirits ARE in fact deceptive then you are in BIG TROUBLE. Upon death you will be taken by the Satan you may or may not believe in. Not to some kind of spiritual paradise – but rather, to everlasting shame, torment and mockery. Satan will laugh in your face in hell one day if you worship false gods of any kind, because he stands behind them all.

Please consider that God loves you. He has given you a choice. He has provided a Savior – Jesus Christ, who became a SACRIFICE FOR YOU – so that you could be made clean, pure and righteous by God and ready to enter into the joy of the Creator forever. Jesus loved you that much. You will find in truly knowing Him the most loving, awesome, faithful, true and powerful person you could ever imagine. He is able to change your life and give you total spiritual fulfilment.

Jesus promised to give rest for the souls of those who serve him. Not more burdensome rituals, but a river of life! It would be a wonderful thing for you to experience the blessing of knowing Him for yourself.

Be at least a little bit willing to consider the evidence for the Good News of Jesus Christ and the message of the Bible. There have been many abuses, since Satan has also been at work inside the church – not only outside. But if you seek for God with all of your heart He will be found by you.

Perhaps it is not too late for you to know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Why not check out some of the testimonies on this and other sites.

If you want to communicate over the internet, send me an e-mail. I want to pray for all who write to me, and God-willing and time-permitting, I would like to write back. I will try to make time.

You might like to read some related ideas in my special short message to New-Agers. Also of interest may be this article on reincarnation.

What do YOU think?

About Michael Fackerell

The Christian faith is about Jesus. He came to save the lost. About Jesus Christ, Bible teaching, Testimonies, Salvation, Prayer, Faith, Networking.

Comments

  1. Wow, I have just finished reading Adam’s post and to say I am shocked, is an understament. It really breaks my heart to here people like Adam speak like that about Jesus Christ, But then again, I have also been there too and yes I have many friends who share the same feelings!It is so easy to dismiss the existance of God and Jesus Christ coz then, there is no need for us to be accountable.Adam, I have seen God work wonders in my life. I was once lost and now I am found, was blind and now I can see…all this because My God saw it fit, to give His only so to die for me. There cannot be any greater love than this Adam and I pray that you will one day get the revelation of the love that compelled the son of man, him who knew no sin,to take up that cross and die “our death”…Adam,you and I do not deserve this mercy.But God is gracious and forgiving…

    To all the other brothers and sister in christ,John9:25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”. Lets not get caught up in the technicalities of “how” we were healed,the evidence is already there, u were blind and now can see…and please continue to pray for Adam and many like him.

  2. To all religions to whom it appeals to. Christians. Your ever lasting love fills my heart with happiness. Wiccans/pagans, Your connection with nature is behond spiritual. Both of you hold an uncanny amount of faith to different things wether you were born one, or converted. My point is, you chose your beliefs. and doing so, you are happy. but along with that belief comes a title. wether it is accepted or not, that is your battle. mine, I once called myself Christian, and I once called myself Wiccan. but as I type the words from my heart. no title can restrain my beliefs. I use the word ‘We’, I used it in general to all. I have written two comments on the subject, one, was my unsationable desire for answers. so, I declared myself christian. another, for my love for all, so I declared myself Wiccan. See? more titles. I feel I should need no titles. and I do not yearn to convert to any. Be you christian, atheist or Wiccan/pagan. that is your choice. mine, is to come to this site in a neutral manner. to learn and aknowlage. You have told me god and Jesus loves me. well if they truly do, I thank them, but I am also aware others love me to. and a compliment to the smart mind of lookinforacity, who saw through my smoke and mirrors. compliments to those who think with their heart along with their mind. peace to all. I eagerly await to what you have to say. (But don’t call me confused. I know exactly where my spirituality lies and what I am doing

    Peace to all.– Stacy

  3. Anonymous says:

    Actually we can be sure since all Christianity did during the days of Constantine the Great was take the Pagan gods and labeled them as the devil and his devils to get people to convert. Besides the gods would not be deceptive at all since there are no evil gods or even dark gods.

  4. ahinckson says:

    Oh Dear God, please remove the scales from Adam’s blind eyes! I wasn’t the least bit angry by his posts, just saddened because of the way the god of this world has blinded his mind so he cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. It is so sad that people are so blinded that they insist on calling what is good, evil and what is evil, good. Let us continue to be in prayer for Adam and others like him.

    By the way, as a point of clarification, John 2 is the only passage about Jesus driving out the money changers that mentions a whip, and he used it to drive out all, both the (Greek “ta te”) sheep and the oxen. It makes perfect sense that He needed a whip to get the animals out, but He did NOT use it on people. Those who are desperate to find sin in the only sinless One (who took THEIR sins upon Himself, mind you) always try to use this verse to paint Jesus as violent. Yes, He drove out the moneychangers, as He should have, but He DIDN’T “assault” them. Please stop distorting Scripture to serve your own purposes!

  5. Anonymous, this is not going to cut it. Hear what the apostle Paul who predated Constantine by almost 3 centuries had to say:

    1Co 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one.
    1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
    1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    Idols are representations of false gods.

    1Co 10:19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
    1Co 10:20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
    1Co 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons.
    1Co 10:22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

    You say there are no evil or dark gods. I say that all of these gods point people AWAY from the only True Savior, Jesus Christ – and therefore – THEY ARE EVIL. Believing these gods will send you to hell, because they always deny our need for God’s forgiveness and the importance of the blood sacrifice of Jesus to take away our guilt and curse.

    Even in the Old Testament the pagan gods such as Baal were leading God’s people astray at times. Nothing could be more evil than to take people away from the Author of Eternal Life.

  6. Im very glad i joined this website.It is different from other sites i’ve visited,and the people here are very loyal and honest,i already feel very helped :)

    • Holyroller_11 says:

      sounds like you have been doing some thinking,good,! take it 1 bite at a time,day by day,most time when a family member begins to find the right path,not long after another then another,no pushing,God will take care of that,the more you learn,the more they will learn,inch by inch,any who lack understanding let them ask God,he will suply,take care H.R

  7. lookinforacity says:

    I find it very disturbing, that people like these come on to a christian site, then start to disrupt it by making damnable statements.
    We do not have to defend our beliefs to anyone.
    When this happens, we are not dealing with the person, these people are fully given over to evil.
    Understand that you could debate with them all day, never getting anywhere with them. They will constantly change the subject, or challenge anything you say, all the while making Anti God, Jesus, Holy Spirit statements.
    Whenever you start talking to them you have to be able to discern the spirit you are dealing with. Is it a spirit of ignorance,ie, the spirit of the unlearned?
    Or is it the Spirit of Anti Christ?
    If it is the Spirit of Anti Christ, do not have anything to do with it, do not give it PLACE. Every question you answer, or ask, “You are giving it a “VOICE”, We are told to mark such a one and have nothing to do with them.
    The biggest example of this kind of a conversation in the bible, would be EVE talking to the Serpent.
    Remember this, they have not come here to learn, or a seeking of the truth, don’t be tricked into thinking you are going to be the one that will be able to show them the errors in their life. They have only come to debate. YOU are the one that opens the door for them to speak.

    Keep in mind, that there are people that come on to this site, and other sites where these types of conversations have taken place,
    they are new Christians, and can be deceived with the lies that they might read.
    We are to esteem our brothers above those in the world, so in the future, you who are spiritual, think of those weaker vessels that might stumble because of what we might have done.

    • JustAGuy says:

      The Bible tells us to answer a fool lest he be wise in his own conceit. True, it also says, do not answer a fool lest you be like him. These verses are written by Solomon right next to each other. They are not stand alone verses, nor contradictions, they are discernment verses. We are to discern the circumstance and respond or not according to it.

      In this case I answer a fool because others coming behind should not be left with the false impression that Christianity has no answer, or an inferior one. While doing so, I do not seek to draw out further conversation but simply reply to the conversation that is.

      You are right to not engage and give a stage to those who hate the Lord, but ignoring it totally on a public forum is not wise. Notice my replies do not seek for ‘illumination’ of the person’s opinions. I have a rhetorical question in it with the answer spelled out. These are areas to discern and work with accordingly.

      Blessings and Peace,
      Timothy

      • michael says:

        Those who know they are fools and those who don’t. Ones who know they are fools (moral rebels) and others who don’t.

      • Hallo Timothy. The context in which yo have reply shows a level of understanding and responsibility.
        It reflects great responsibility for other people not to be mislead as they read online.
        Once again thank you for the wise and great reply.

    • JustAGuy says:

      You were right Jim! Here are some lessons learned.

      http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/paganism#comment-4981

      It is my hope that in some of my replies, those coming after will see that there are answers. However the folly is that even correct answers will engender a multitude of questions from those who refuse to believe.

      Blessings and Peace,
      Timothy

  8. This time of year salvation is so important and for people to be going to church and praying i was in italy once during the holidays visiting my sister who was going to school there and it was just so amazing to visit that area.

    • Well Saints ,

      Check out this site.
      It is got some great Bible quizzes , book / chapter wise ,……
      Helps to brush up one’s knowledge of the Bible.

      http://doinggood.org/BibleQuizzes.asp

      Not for professional preachers and those in full time ministry though !!!

      Seems most of you are busy , ……preparing for the Big Bash on the 25th. ;-)

      Cheers

      Vikki

  9. Oynaq Ozgar says:

    I Found this article interesting and enlightening, It is easy to tell that the author knows their belief system, and how they want to lead their life.

    I am a Druid, I will not get into the whole, “yes, my beliefs say this and done this, but look at what yours have done thing.

    But the only thing that really stuck me when reading this article in a negative fashion, is the assumptions made of Pagans from a teaching that appears to be taught by a Christian scholar, and not a Pagan scholar. So please allow me to make some basic points, not all just a few.

    1. Most Pagans see the earth as Divine, and we try to protect it, but in no time are we actually hurting the earth. The earth was here before man and will be here after man. We see the earth as more of a bringer or sustainer of life and by “protecting the earth” we are protecting our existence on earth.

    2. The reason you get so many messages from Pagans about worshiping Satan is because Pagans have never worship Satan, Satan does not exist for us, as Hell does not exist for us. But it is very normal for Wiccans to be associated with the “Witchcraft that is show in movies, fairy tales, etc. of casting evil spells, of worshiping Satan, yada yada yada” And they don’t like it because that “kind of Witch” is based on Christianity, not Paganism. The Muslim, Judiasm and Christianity belief system brought the world Satan. Pagans pretty much look at anyone that worships Satan as Christian, and don’t group us with that bad part of your belief system. When the Christian belief system took over Western Europe, The Americas, etc. before that if you would have said Satan, or Satan by any other name, you would have gotten a “What? Who? What are you talking about?” A good test would be: Before looking it up, what does the Pentagram mean or stand for? Now look up what it means to a Pagan. Odds are it will surprise you.

    3. It would surprise you how many Pagans believe in a “One True God” and our other gods are “Demi-Gods” or what you might call Angles or Saints, some are harsh (such as a war god) most are not (That is a very very simplified explanation).

    I really appreciate what you wrote and I do appreciate your efforts that you are putting forth for me. I believe that your efforts are honest and good. I think what you are doing with your time and energy are positive, maybe just put a little more research next time. But in the long run, I think: I will always be a Pagan, you will always be a Christian and there you go.

    I will close with a joke, you probably won’t appreciate it, but just about all non-christian readers will, I know all my Pagan friends will:

    I die and go to “Heaven” and meet “Saint Peter” and I see a huge wall, and I ask Saint Peter. What is that wall for? And Saint Peter says “shhhhhh,,,, those are the Christians and they think they are the only ones up here”.

    Thanks for letting me rattle, Keep up the Good Work!

    Oy

  10. You are entitled to your beliefs, however misplaced they may be. The only point I would like to make is that you use the confusion as to what makes one a witch as an argument against witchcraft. I have met many Christians who have differing views on what makes one a Christian. Some people believe it is following the Bible as much as possible, or living a good life in line with Christian principles, some believe simply believing in God and Jesus, others being baptised and so on and so forth. So please do not use the fact that many witches do not know if they are coming or going as a point of debate, because many Christians are exactly the same way. Sadly witchcraft has become something of a fad, but that does not make it less valid for many of us who are dedicated.

    Blessings.

    • Its not the internal disagreement among practitioners of paganism and witchcraft that discredits it. It is the failure to adequately deal with the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that implies which in my view makes all those views faulty.

  11. And the Goddess does too.

    Together, they are the ONE, all knowing, all loving, all creative force of All That Is. You can’t have a God without the Goddess! It does not make sense! Yes, I DO believe in God. And Yes, I DO believe in Goddess. I believe in the ONE true Divine.

    And the True Divine looks nothing like a hell fire/brimstone belching patriarch.

  12. seasiren says:

    Just a question I have why is it that you will capitalize some of the divisions of Paganism but you won’t capitalize Paganism itself? I’m currently writing an argumentative paper for my college english class about Discriminations against Pagans and I had to write neutral perspectives of each of the sides, so I went looking for the more Fundamentalist view and found this site. I just couldn’t help myself and had to ask about it since I’m taking the time and courtesy to capitalize Christianity I only ask that you would give us Pagans that much respect in return.

  13. Dear Michael I took the time to do some light reading on your site, which I came across by mistake. Still I found it to be interesting if lacking. You make some errors that show your superficial understanding of what Paganism is. I am in no way attacking you personally and think it is very needful to be as polite as possible while answering such articles as you have written. That is what I would like to do here bit by bit. So I will take what you have written and then give it a reply form this Pagan’s personal world view. I speak for me and my understanding of Poly-theology. I hope you will read this and if you take nothing else form it; it is my hope that you will at least learn to agree to disagree. So now we may start.

    1. Pagan reply: Yes, we do some of the things you listed in common. Churches are dead, rotting corpses. They are “Clubs” with clicks. I would agree that many Pagans do not trust Christians because Christians tend to be some of the cruelest people you will ever come into contact with. This of course simply reflects their spiritual heritage. Starting with the Jesus of the gospels, who I strongly suspect was a fictitious person. Jesus assaulted the money changers in the temple. These money changers had a long standing tradition of providing a service, one that predated Jesus by a considerable amount of time. He took a Roman whip and accosted them and turned over their tables. This can be found in John 2:15 and Mark 11:15 as well as in Matthew 21:12. It shows his criminal and “thug” like mentality. He also steals another man’s herd of swine by murdering them and displaying his cruelty towards animals and psychopathic behavior. This is in Mark 5:12, 13. These are just two examples of His cruelty. Then his church (the Orthodox Roman/ Greek Church) spent well over a thousand years bathing the earth in people’s blood. Protestants have and still do a lot of harm both physical and physiological. Thus they follow in his footsteps or the footsteps of the character created by the likes of Paul and the writers of the Gospels. We would part on the “holy sprit” part, a non entity, with no power.

    2. Pagan reply: I am glad that some Christians believe it’s good to care of the earth. Yet so far as I have seen it is not a core Christian belief and it is one that has only begun in more recent times. Most Christians that I have come into contact with think that because the tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews gave them so called “dominion” over the earth that they can blatantly rape our mother planet. I hope that the next generation of Christians will follow your lead in concern for our planets health. It is refreshing to see that at least a few Christians are waking to the irresponsibility that we as humans have acted with. Yet sadly, here is where your (Christian) superficial understanding comes into play. Nature is not divinity itself. Rather it is a reflection of poly-divinity as are all creatures living on mother earth. The fact that all souls and all of Nature contain a divine “spark” within it should be no surprise. In fact the entire known and unknown universe is but the physical matter created around and infused with the glory and power of the eternal Gods!!! Thus to assume as most Christians do that we worship the “created” VS the creators misses the mark. As far as destroying Mother Earth is concerned, we are destroying our habitable environment more then the earth. If we keep this up we will poison our living space to such a point that the Earth will cleanse herself of the parasitic like creatures we are becoming. When this is done, it seems likely to me that a different animal will rise to take our places and the earth will be renewed again. Thus we would do well to be mindful of this. The other thing that I have noticed here is that Christians (or maybe a small number of them) seem to think that Neo-Pagans are out to “harm” their fictitious god. This is not the case. If Christians really wish to dally in such fantasies then that is their right. I for one fully support their rights to pray in Jesus name in their churches and homes and even in a public park where I might be. I for one just want them to let us alone and to have equal protection for my rights under the law as well as in practices. Neo-Pagans are aware of your faith and its ideas. We simply have rejected them. Most Neo-Pagans were Christians at some point. Most of us are more likely to know the Biblical text better then current Christians because we took time to really investigate the text most thoroughly, instead of taking our former preacher/pastor/ priests/ reverends’ word or particular teaching at faces value. We did the unpardonable, we thought for ourselves. This must be a most grievous sin in the eyes of a cruel deity that demands robotic like faith. What all of this of course means is that there will never come a time when we stand before your god to give an account of anything. I would say that your god is standing before us giving a very long account of his very long list of “sins”.

    3. Pagan reply: Thank you very much for seeing the historical evil of the Christian Church and for the apology! It is far too few Christian people who stand up to the facts of history with such humility and renounces such atrocities. It is also very reliving to know that not all Christians would drive us thru with a sword or with a bullet. The Inquisition was a very bloody time for many people of many faiths. May such days never be seen again! Having said this, it is now necessary to address your remarks on our faith being “Wrong”. It is of course your right to reject the tenets of our faith as we have rejected yours. As my father says “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”. Still anyone who will study the Bible without their pre-indoctrinated ideas will clearly see the many gaping holes that litter this man made (invented) book. It will become very clear that the blood of Jesus could never atone for any sin and he will never “come again”. Lastly for point three, to assume that there is some large number of Pagans casting spells of harm upon innocent Christians for no other reason then that they are Christians or that we are evil, shows the taint of bigotry and spiritual oppression left over form the so called “Holy Inquisition”. We have no interest in you other then as people and the protection of our own rights.

    4. Pagan reply: You are right in that the way Neo-Pagans understand Poly-theology is sundry, a veritable smorgasbord. However what you fail to realize is that religion is MAN’S ATTEMPT to touch the divine. Your Bible is NOT historical fact and neither is the so called resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact there is not one true strand of if evidence for the life of this Jewish man. If you claim the bible as your proof…try again. It is a quasi- historical /Gnostic religious text. Show me one verifiably authenticated extra-Biblical source that proves the life of Jesus (Joshua) son of Marry (Miriam) little lone his so called divinity. The Mythos (Mythos is a Greek word meaning “story, legend”) of the Gods and Goddesses were/are a way of early/modern man to better understand some basic truths. When you look beyond the basic story and dig deeper you can see the “meat” of the mythos. To do less is to cheat your self of great truths and beauty. If anyone has a reason to doubt your Bible it is all people who freely think for themselves. We have true reason to believe in our faith. The Gods have ruled always, without impeding our freedom of choice. Thus a reawakening begins for Paganism while Christianity slowly degenerates and dies.

    5. Pagan reply: I must start here with your obvious and glaring mistaken understanding on some points. For the record I am not a Satanist. I do however know that 99% of Satanist are not out there killing people (which is a lot more then can be said for the Church historically, both the Catholics and Protestants) for their ideas of divinity (when such ideas are even present) as some kind of sacrifices. There are different sects of “Satanism” such as LaVeyan Satanism, espousing social Darwinism, hedonism, Randi Objectivism, Nietzsche like philosophy and atheism. This all uses Satan as a metaphor. There is also Theistic Satanism and from the few people that I have met that do practices this faith they fall more along the lines of worshiping Semitic Gods of Chaos, such as Seth. Then you have a very slim minority that does their (immature) best to live up to the shocking claims of Christians by being loud, potty moth’s with far too much time on their hands; that do not go as far as actually killing anyone little lone torturing or eating Christian babies. Then you have the last group of people that are from all walks of life and faith, calling themselves many things that do kill people. I call them crazy criminals. We have (thankfully) a committed Law enforcement and judicial systems that imprison and punish such as these. I hope that this will clear up you error. Next, while I think that the Satanists are simply somewhat silly, I fully support their right to be silly as much as I support the silly Christians’ right to be silly. You asked if our sprits have always told the truth. YES. You then ask: “Did it work out always the way the spirit said it would”? YES. You then ask: Has it ever seemed to you that the spirit was somehow mocking you? NO. I thus return the questions to you. Like I said before, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. As for Your claims that the Christian boogie man “the Devil” is tricking and seducing me and other non-Judeo-Christians, I say yours is just another small voice in a sea of fearmongers. Saying things that are as ludicrous as telling me that the Earth is flat. It’s a very outdated and unreasonable statement in the face of the evidence to the contrary. Their is no devil and no Triune Christian god. When you pass from this earth (die), you will find that you lived your life/lives in misery and discontentedness unnecessarily. Surely such a one as your self must at least have had (at some point) this inkling that Christianity is the child of “Classical” Judaism, who in turn is the daughter of ancient Monotheistic Zoroastrianism. Besides all of this, if there is any deceiving going on, it is your Bible and the men who wrote it that have deceived you and yours. For all the tall stories of the Bible are simply regenerated Zoroastrianism mythoi. One short example of this would be that Zoroaster taught that Ahura Mazda is a transcendental and universal god, the one uncreated Creator to whom all worship is directed. Sound familiar? It should, this is the same description the Hebrews used for their tribal deity, a description they took form Zoroastrianism, the same one that the early Christians as well as modern ones have carried over from the Hebrews. Maybe Christians should do some comparisons between the Bible and The Avesta. It would be indispensable in a better understanding of the true origins of your faith. This is simply my humble suggestion. Please be at least a little bit willing to consider the evidence for the Good News that I bring to you: You can be at last truly free of your spiritual enslavement if you just open your mind. I hope you do at least take the time to read this, if not post it. Many times Christians are too daunted to post replies to their articles. If you don’t I won’t be mad. I wish you well in life.
    Bright blessings,
    Jay

    • Adam, you raise so many points and each of them could lead to some in-depth discussions. I will try to make a start. Please bear with me as I have a lot on my plate right now, with starting a new business and some family members needing a lot of care. I may not be able to address all the important questions you raise in depth.

      Although many visible churches are dead, there are also thousands of churches that are alive. There are even some that are absolutely full of the life of Jesus. Churches where the miracles of Jesus are happening on a daily basis, with about the same order of power as what is recorded in the gospels. Do a google search on “T.B. Joshua” for plenty of video and other evidence. This man of God also demonstrates a lot of compassion for the poor, the widows, the orphans, the sick and suffering. He gives them money. At times he has not even had his own bank account. The church I go to is full of love and the presence of God. They helped my family once in a very loving practical way when we were recently in great suffering. To a greater or lesser extent, we have a communion with the Holy Spirit that makes our lives fulfilled.

      I meet sincere Christians everywhere if I look for them, people who have been changed by God’s love and can point to proof of God’s power in their lives.

      So its not true generally that churches are dead rotting corpses. Sadly, some have fallen away from the true faith and made compromises with godless, worldly influences and they cannot offer God’s life any more. But not all are like this.

      • Michael,
        I understand that I did raise a lot of point in counter to your article and I further understand it may take you some time to get to them all. I can wait. I think that you may have some insightful ideas even if we disagree on them or agree only in part. I wish you well in your new business venture and I’ll ask the Gods to give you strength as you care for your family members. I hope that they are not too ill or if they are that they will recover soon.

        While there are no doubt some truly kind and caring people within the Christian faith, it appears to be the exception instead of the rule.I am thankful for every human being that is kind and giving. If there were more people like this, our lives on earth would be a bit better off then they are. Yet many of the preachers and even the “common” Christian do these sorts of things for show. They want the whole community to look at them and their “Good deeds” and bless them for it. It’s for the publicity and not out of kindness or concern. Of course the people who receive help form such as these are not apt to complain…they are after all having a pressing need meet. T.B. Joshua also appears to be such a person. After looking at his site I clicked one link down and found this:

        “There has been a lot of talk about T.B. Joshua from Nigeria lately. I have written to him asking for two items: (1) a copy of his doctrinal statement and (2) independent HIV tests from BEFORE those he claims he has healed were allegedly healed proving they had AIDS to begin with. On his The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations web site he makes claims of AIDS healings but provides only testimonials and pictures of people holding up what are supposed to be HIV tests taken, in some cases, before and after the fact. Most people will readily realize that testimonials and HIV tests shown in photographs do not constitute proof. HIV tests from before their visit to The Synagogue should be provided independently of The Synagogue to verify any alleged healings. That spectacular things are being seen at his church and on video seem to be without doubt. But let’s not forget that many of the “miracles” we see could also be faked. If these are indeed true miracles, we still need to investigate the source. It is important to remember that Satan is capable of both healing (Rev. 13:14) and making people sick (Job 2:7). I have suspected for a long time that occult healings can sometimes be the result of the enemy lifting sickness or disease that was a result of his inflicting sickness and disease in the first place. Why would he do that? Simply to prop up his false prophets and false healers and to deceive people! We also need to be aware of the fact that a house swept clean without true repentance and belief in Jesus Christ is a house that is open to further demonic episodes (Matt. 12:43-45). That’s why it’s always important to check back on those who claim to be healed and see if they are still healed at a later date. But, most importantly, it’s imperative to test the spirits, judge and compare the doctrinal teachings and beliefs presented by T.B. Joshua with the Word of God. On that basis alone you will discover that this man is teaching heresy — laying error alongside truth. Christians should avoid any man who is using occult techniques in the name of Jesus Christ. I will now comment on questions and answers given by T.B Joshua in a book called Pastor W.F. Kumuyi and Prophet T.B. Joshua: Are both messengers of God? by Isaac B. Agbaje and Abieye Kalu. His quotes are very enlightening and should be enough for any true believer to stay far away from this modern day shaman who mixes Christianity with paganism in a very enticing manner.”

        I found this site at the URL of http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/tbjoshua.html.

        His Website, like him is flashy, full of show for the masses…he might make a good actor, so it seems that he (T.B. Joshua) is not even trusted among Christians. My, my, The Gods do work in mysterious ways! I am not condemning all Christians across the board, just the ones who show just how smug and self righteous they are. I suppose I agree with the Bible when it says ’“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

        That is something for people to think deeply on. So while I can not say anything for or against the Church you attend, because I am not there and I have not met them.It seems clear what Mr. T.B. Joshua is all about. Just another Bennie hinn (I may have misspelled his name, I apologize if so.) full of show and most likely faked power. Thus is seems to me that my original comment stands on “Terra firma” (firm ground), most churches are dead rotting corpses.Because I have not seen one thing that shows me otherwise.
        Adam.

        • michael says:

          Adam,

          When I lived on the Gold Coast, my pastor actually travelled to Nigeria and saw with his own eyes what was going on. This pastor was and is no fool. The number of genuine miracles is undeniable. They don’t show a tiny fraction of it on their website or TV programmes.

          My own parents who are not charismatics in theology have had undeniable confirmation of this man’s accuracy.

          Some of my own close personal friends have dealt with T.B. Joshua when he came to Sydney. Even when leaving for the airport, he did not come out of the house until it was, naturally speaking, too late to catch the plane. No one knew it at the time, but the plane was delayed several hours, so there was no problem.

          The writer at deceptioninthechurch can’t seem to say a good thing about anyone who believes in the present day operation of the Holy Spirit’s gifts. You can ally with such people if you want to in these matters, they are conservative evangelicals, but it doesn’t mean that either of you are judging matters rightly here.

          It is my experience that whenever someone rises up in the power of Jesus Christ and does anything notably different, that every religious demon from every source seems to rise up and go on the attack. Including religious demons in Christians.

          Jesus taught that his true followers would be called evil, since He Himself was. “If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more then the members of his house”.

          If you want the truth you are going to have to look beyond the cheap criticism that comes from people whose main ministries are in front of computer monitors. Like it or not, certain conservative evangelicals still have to deal with Scriptures like:

          “Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do shall he do also.” (John 14:12)

          If I am going to trust the words of Jesus, its best if I don’t pick and choose which ones should be applicable to me, based on my limited experience.

          God doesn’t feel obligated to reveal the truth to those who don’t have a heart for it, be they Christians or not. Please take note.

          As for Benny Hinn, God IS doing some miracles in his meetings, but VERY FEW in comparison with the number of sick people who go there looking for help. There is a big difference. Perhaps .1% of the people who attend his meetings are genuinely healed of something.

          Benny Hinn IS a showman, I personally don’t care for his style, but there is still some value in what he preaches, and I will leave it to God to give final judgment. I don’t like some of his fundraising techniques, but I have to choose my battles and its not something I will major on at this time.

          Remember that the critics of Jesus could not deny that miracles were happening, so they wanted to say it was by the power of the devil that it was going on. So with some of our modern day Pharisees and Sadducees. For them, only the devil can do mighty signs and wonders today.

        • Phil Makhubu says:

          Adam,I fail to understand what is worrying you about T.B.Joshua and his ministry.
          If he is of God, the True Church of Jesus Christ will know;and if not the same will also be true.
          Some few points to make.
          1.You do not speak for all believers.
          2.The Holy Spirit will not inspire suspicion in you about TB Joshua and at the same time affirm to other true believers that T.B.Joshua is a true servant of God.
          3.Judging TB Joshua by the mistakes of his early ministry is absurd.No Christian is infallable and TB Joshua has moved on from babyhood to maturity.
          4.T.B.Joshua does not report to you.You are not his employer to demand reports from him about what he believes.
          5.TB Joshua has said many times that he is a servant of Jesus Christ.
          6.History lesson:It is always the powerless, without exception, who destructively critisize the powerful and try to bring them down to their level.
          7.Stop wasting your energy busy Judging another man’s(Jesus Christ)servant,rather concentrate (if you will) on walking in love toward TB Joshua and be compassionate to all(including TB Joshua) who according to your personal standards are of the devil or shamans and pray for them continually that God may be merciful to them and grant them true repentance.

          Phillip

    • Adam, you refer to the incident of Jesus driving out money-changers. You write: “These money changers had a long standing tradition of providing a service, one that predated Jesus by a considerable amount of time.”

      What was really happening was that profiteering merchants had set up a kind of monopoly to take exorbitant profit from each and every person who wanted to honor God by obeying the Mosaic law. Under the pretense that Roman coins were unholy, they took the roman coins from people and sold them special temple coins with which to buy their animals for sacrifice. They had become “issuers of currency” with a monopolistic hold, taking advantage of all and sundry to line their own pockets. This God hates. God does not like people selling access to Himself, or attempting to do so. If coming to God is a matter of eternal life or death, you may understand why Jesus took steps to show God’s anger at these corrupt and greedy practices.

      Similarly, all churches that claim a monopoly on the grace of God and commercialise that “grace” by demanding offerings in exchange for the release of God’s blessings provided at great cost by Jesus on the cross, these churches are an abomination to God.

      • I would agree that they would make large profits at the expense of the pilgrims. Every Israelite, rich or poor, who had reached the age of twenty, was obligated to pay a half shekel as an offering too Ha-Shem (Hebrew for god, meaning by default too the sacred treasury.)This tribute was in every case to be paid in the exact Hebrew half shekel. At Passover everyone in the world who was an adult male and wished to worship at the Temple would bring his “offering” or purchase a sacrificial animal at the Temple. Since there was no acceptance of foreign money with any foreign image (do to the ban on images under Torah law) the money changers would sell “Temple coinage” at a very high rate of exchange and assess a fixed charge for their services. None of this however changes the fact that Jesus or Joshua had no authority to act in the criminal Manner that he did. It would be like you walking into a Church treasury and taking the money too toss out the door or a back for that matter. Because that is what the money changers were, a form of bank. Thus it was an economic system that the religious/Civil authorities allowed. No matter what else happened Jesus still accosted human beings with a potentially deadly weapon; he could have taken other steps if he felt that what they were doing was wrong. Thus it shows to me and many, many other people his brutality and possibly insane behavior. Lastly the death of Jesus on the cross (on which the Romans executed the worst criminals) amounted too nothing more then the death of a violent criminal and not the grace of any God.

        Adam

        • michael says:

          You are assuming that Jesus was not the Son of God acting on God’s instructions. On this basis, of course, Jesus had no authority to clean up God’s temple of sharks and money hungry merchants.

          But your assumption is wrong. Jesus is the Son of God. He always took a keen interest in the will of His Father.

          Its interesting that the crowd demanded that a violent criminal Barabbas be released in the place of Jesus. Pilate, the Roman governor, found Jesus not guilty but gave him over to death for fear of the Jews. So much for the theory that it was all about putting violent criminals to death.

          Jesus never hurt anyone, only business interests of those who were flagrantly abusing God’s temple or ignoring God’s law.

          When Jesus returns however, it will be for judgment. I hope you are doing well with the Ten Commandments, but I suspect, Adam, that like the rest of humanity you do not even live up to your own standards, let alone God’s.

          • Hello Michael,
            You are correct; I am basing my arguments of the fact that Jesus was not the “Son of God”. Nothing in his life ever proves he is so! His supposed resurrection can not even be verified out side of the Bible, which is of course not a reliable text in the first places. Seeing as it is a religious text full of legends mixed with bits of history. So again, yes, he had no authority in the Temple of Ha-Shem (The Hebrews tribal deity) that (The Authority) belonged to the Chief priest and the civil magistrates. If they allowed these changers to be there then so be it. Is it morally wrong? Yes, I would agree with you that it was wrong for them to basically rob the poor. Yet as the saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right. The Charter of Jesus was just as wrong as the money changers. So when you claim that Jesus never hurt anyone, you are (respectfully) wrong. He accosted the people with a whip. He physically attacked them! When you do this, it causes pain, thus it is hurting someone. As far as it being interesting that the crowd demanded Barabbas be released instead of Jesus. Jesus was by far the worse criminal and trouble maker. He assaults people, kill’s other people’s animals, he went around causing trouble with the occupying Roman forces, risking the lives of millions of hundreds of thousands of Jewish lives, all the while inciting religious divide in a much fractured and religiously tense nation. The Jewish kingdom had no hope of over throwing their Roman conquers and their God did not seem very interested in freeing them himself. This of course was proven by the Jewish revolt that cased the Romans to burn the second temple. Thus Jesus was much more dangerous to the Nation then Barabbas was. So, they put to death a violent and rebellious criminal. As to my own standard of conduct and how well I hold up to my ethics, well over all very well thank you. Yet I too make mistakes. However, when I do make such mistakes, I do not fall back on the much used and lame excuse that “The devil made me do it”. I take account of my errors and mistakes. I alone am to blame when I mess up. I alone make amends for said mistakes. That is what makes me a responsible adult and human being. As far as the Christian God’s standards, well to be honest, they don’t apply to me. I am after all, not Christian. Besides this, the Bible is a book which on the surface appears to be about love and kindness, when in reality it is a book of atrocities and vile evilness. A book that allows its readers to go after “unbelievers”, a book of madness written by the hands of men filled with madness. The Apostle Paul would be a good example. The only true differences between radical Islam and the Radical Christianity that many practices is the body count is far in favor of the later. As for the Commandments, there are 613 mitzvot (commandments) not just the 10 that Christians pick and chose from. Now while I know some of what I have said sounds harsh, it is not said in anger. It’s just that the facts can be harsh in and of themselves at times. I am a big one for truth and personal integrity. Over all, I think that this is and will be a very productive exercise. With much regards and well wishes,
            Adam

          • michael says:

            Adam,

            You like to put negative constructions on certain passages concerning the life and ministry of Jesus, and then deny the truthfulness of others that come from the same texts you are using to attack the character of Jesus.

            You like to put yourself above the Bible as the authority over the Bible. Presumably, you get to decide which parts are “legends” and which parts are based on true historical accounts. Further, you get to read certain extra information into the text so that you can justify your attacks on the person of Jesus.

            You dismiss the resurrection accounts of Jesus, which for your information are backed up by thousands of personal visitations since, hundreds of thousands of healings in Jesus’ name and a lot more. You dismiss them because “His supposed resurrection can not even be verified out side of the Bible, which is of course not a reliable text in the first places. Seeing as it is a religious text full of legends mixed with bits of history.” How is that you are an authority on the Bible now? Where did you get this knowledge?

            If a miracle happens in Jesus’ name, you side with conservative evangelicals who say it is done by occult power. So it doesn’t count for evidence in your mind. Neither does the internal historical evidence. Neither does the testimony of the early church. You are in deep trouble, Adam. I would not trade places with you for all the oil in the Middle East.

            I will be the judge of whether my limited resources of time are best employed in dialoguing with you, and whether you like it or not, I am getting ready to make a judgement that they are not.

            One reason for this is that I am not sure we are even talking about the same Jesus. I am talking about the one whose deeds were recorded in the New Testament, who is at work today. You are talking about a Jesus who never rose from the dead, who was a violent criminal and deserved to be crucified for harming the business interests of pig farmers by casting demons out. Tell me, do you blame Jesus for casting the demons out? What were these demons that Jesus cast out? Was the casting out of demons a miracle? Or was it only a legend? If a legend, how can you connect Jesus’ command (the demons recognised His authority even if you don’t) to the loss of the lives of the pigs? But if the whole incident never happened, why are you criticising Jesus for it? I don’t see how you can have it both ways. You are merely promoting unbelief and blasphemy and you want to have your cake and eat it too.

          • Michael,
            This of course has turned out no different then I had expected it to with a Christian. When hard facts and truth comes your way and you can’t handle it you all bail. It just took you longer. Which is more then I can say for some. So I applaud your valiant efforts as feeble as they untimely were. I shall of course respect your choice to discontinue our dialogue, thus after this finial post here I will not return. Yet because you did ask questions of me I will answer them before I depart as well as make a few parting comment upon your remarks as well as some of the over all problem I see. You of course may not post this as you are obviously afraid. Let me start with a very clear statement. Jesus NEVER lived, NEVER really taught anything and was the invention of some desperate Jewish heretics that was further elaborated upon by Saul of Tarsus; a sick and debauched individual who showed his hatred of women through out his epistles. This leads me and many other competent people to believe that he was homosexually inclined; doing is Jewish best to repress it. The Bible is NOT a true historical text, (though it dose add some true historical events for realisms and believability sake.) it is largely a religious text. This text is replete with “Legends” and fables. For the record I do not have to read “Certain Extra information” into the text, it’s all their, plain to see for anyone who cares to think for themselves instead of behaving as an automaton. This is something that you and most other Christians are incapable of doing. The factitious accounts of the person of Jesus leaves themselves open to attack by anyone with a minimal intelligences. Maybe you ought to stop in at X-Christians.com and read for yourself the stories of deliverances from you backward and vile faith. Yet it is well understood that some people can not be helped. You are one of them that are beyond helping, stuck as you are in this quagmire of Christian lies and filth. You are 100% correct, I am far above the Bible as are all FREE human beings. The weak willed and lost souls of the earth subject themselves to enslavement to this deranged book of insanity. Michael writes: “.” How is that you are an authority on the Bible now? Where did you get this knowledge?” I spent 20 years as a Christian, very well versed in the study of the Hebrew Torah (which I speak and read fluently) as well as the Greek and Latin copies of the New Testaments. The English translations upon which you rely leave much to be desired. None of this even begins to address the fact that the New Testament as it is known today was compiled by a known tyrant and despot The Emperor Constantine the Great to solidify his political power. This is in good keeping with the history of Christianity over all, so no real surprises there. At any rate his little synod left out a lot of the other Gospels that were a part of the Christian legend. Be care sir on what you claim because most of the early Christians would not be caught dead with the likes of you modern Christians. Just ask the Cathari, O sorry, you can’t because they were savagely murdered by other Christians starting in the late 1100 thru the middle 1300’s. So I obtained my knowledge thru hard work and study of the foolishness that my very own mother still toils away in. It’s a sad and shameful thing indeed to know that my loved ones are stuck in this mire. By the way I do not side with any Christians of any sect…I was simply pointing out that your claims are not the only one to be hared among your faith group. I did this because you (as it seems from my point of view) write as if your take on Christianity and Christian people in general are the only valid ones, that if you call them Christians then they are and if you call them other then Christians then so they are. Many of your co-religionists would group you in the same category as you group them. Is it any wonder then that the Christian faith is slowly but inexorably dying? No. The first Christians sent out a spiritual contagion that has swept the earth and left the planet in a long time spiritual plague that has left many spiritually dead or dying. Now that the vaccine is being administered to the planet’s people with the rebirth of Paganism, your demise as a faith group is certain. It just takes time for the sick to get well again! Miracles happen because the Glory of The Gods allows it to be so. It has nothing to do with Jesus name. They unlike your false god are always looking out for the greater interest of humanity as a whole. When we damage ourselves, we reap what we have sowed. I am very glad that you would not “trade Places” with me. I am by far the one that is better off. You are the one in trouble, not that the Gods will punish you, you punish yourself daily by trying to living off of spiritual vomit. Michael you also wrote: “I will be the judge of whether my limited resources of time are best employed in dialoguing with you, and whether you like it or not, I am getting ready to make a judgment that they are not.” Well since you are the one who foolishly believes the Bible here’s another passage for you: Galatians 6:9: “And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” I know that you (from you twisted perspective) were trying to do well. You of course were set up for failure from the start by a corrupt faith. However the one thing that you nailed on the head is this, we are NOT talking about the same Jesus. YOUR JESUS IS A FALSE GOD!!! The invented Jesus that is written about in the New Testament is the one I spoke of. He is the insanity of men made manifest in a book. I attack this book because fools kill for it, openly harass others because of it and try to shove it’s vileness down the throat of others while trying to keep their “Flock of mindless sheep” deceived. It really has nothing to do with Pigs. It was one simple example of the mind set of the men who wrote this evil book. They could think of nothing better then to entertain their readers then with death. Of course that seems to have gone over your head. So do I blame a made up character for doing what his inverters made him do? No, that is silly. I simply meant to point out that the writers of this fiction show their own madness and the madness of their Character by tormenting animals, real or imagined. Because if they imagined it in this story, it is probably true that they (the writers) did torment real animals at some point. Why do you think that our mental health professionals ask questions of people about hurting animals? Because it is another clue into their psychosis. Thus I don’t have to have it both ways as you put it, you just could not see it because you are blind to the simplicity of truth. That’s to be expected with someone in your spiritual condition, I see it often, Christians that are locked into a cycle of illogical thinking and perpetual spiritual darkness! That’s why our planet went form the light of reason of Paganism with its many free thinkers and inventors to the dark, dank and dirty world of Christianity, where 90% of the people could not read or write, where plague killed rampantly because the masses crowded into churches to pray for deliverance from a god that did not exist; a world and way of life that has taken us nearly a thousand years to recover from. Do I hate Jesus, no, because he is not real! What I hate are the results that this book has caused when fools took it for more then the pack of lies that it is! One day Humanity WILL BE FREE! I do not wish you anything but health and a long life. May such a long life lead you and all of yours to Freedom one day soon!!!
            Good bye,
            Adam

          • warrior daughter says:

            I am wondering what you will do upon your death here on earth????I know that you know that you have somewhere or something to do when your life here on earth is over….I realize that you call yourself a pagan but just what have your gods done for you or make you critical of the Torah and the Bible??? You disrespected your mother who gave birth to you by saying she foolishly toils away in her faith (for the TRUE LIVING GOD)…Your mother’s prayers for you to know the truth and be set free will be working in your life even when she passes away unlike your prayers to your gods which just evaporate into thin air…You are being deceived by your gods and their is a penalty to be paid and whereas when you come to Christ He has paid the penalty already for you….

          • Dear “warrior daughter”,
            I clicked back over to this site so that I could see if Michael had see my finial post to him and or replied before I delete this site from my computers favorites and cookies. I happen to think it a good idea to here your opponents finial words. As I said I will not be post here again with him, but you are not him and he has not replied yet so I will go ahead and answer your post. Fair is fair after all. Yes you are right we all have somewhere to go after the physical death of our bodies. One this much we are in agreement. As far as what will happen to me, well there are many possibilities, I may well stay in what the Greeks called “Ἠλύσια πεδία” (in English: The Elysian fields) and the Celts called it Tír na nÓg , you get the idea or so I will assume. There is a chance that my soul may decide to come back to the Earth in a new body (Reincarnation) to do more work here that is badly needed. At no point will I ever go to Hell because your Christian concept of hell is a distorted rip off of the Greek “ᾍδης” (Hades) which is not eternal punishment ,With the possible exception of a few according to the mythos, which when understood by properly educated individuals is and will be more clearly understood. Yet I do not have the time today to teach you how to understand such a complex subject. If you would like to learn leave a post and I will gladly teach you some truth. Otherwise, you’ll just have to take my word for it. Hell is a rip off. Because Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians used the Greek word Hades to translate the Hebrew word Sheol. Thus, in Acts 2:27, the Hebrew phrase in Psalm 16:10 appears in the form: “you will not abandon my soul to Hades.” Death and Hades are repeatedly associated in the Book of Revelation. The Hebrew word “שאול” (Sh’ol), is a place of the dead or the underworld. In the Hebrew Bible, it is where the bad and the good, the pious and wicked must go at the point of death. In Ecclesiastes and Job, Sheol is the common destination of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead, there is no heaven and Hell. There is Just Sheol according to The Jewish Torah. Ask any Rabbi. I am glad that you understand that I am a Neo-Pagan and that the Bible has no authority over me or any one that knows what it is worth. What have the Gods done? What have they not done? They infuse the universe with their purity and Goodness. They have shown me wisdom; I have seen the gapping holes in the text of the Bible and the Torah. Both texts are refurbished Zoroastrian mythos. Basically, they are bad copies of some other people’s faith. I would suggest that you go back up and read my counter points to the original article written by the web master. As far as my mother, No, I did not disrespect her. I stated a very sad fact. She is still wrapped up in some very WRONG ideas on faith and toils in prayer to a god that is not real and claiming to be filled with a holy sprit that is nothing more then a figment of her imagination, planted by other deluded Christians. It is a foolish endeavor to please a false god, a waste of her time and very precious energy. She is an older woman now and not as health as she used to be. Instead of relying on her health answer to come to her from “Jesus” she ought to be seeing a doctor who can proscribe medicine that could greatly improve her quality of life. Instead she quotes scripture form an out dated and obsolete book, for example “By his stripes we are healed” and other such rubbish. Maybe if she had gone to a doctor instead of Jesus she would not have suffered two strokes just two years ago! And just so you know I was already a Neo-Pagan before her health started to go bad, and I told her to go see the doctors then. SO MUCH FOR YOUR FALSE god’s POWER! I laugh at your feeble god and his weak bravado! Again as far as who is being deceived, go read my first post here. ITS YOU! Your prayers and your false god are nothing, empty words that shatter like glass over jagged stones. You Christians toil pointlessly and are locked in a curricular illogical reasoning. WAKE UP PLEASE!!! I just wish you could all see who foolish you are all acting, bowing before a none existent god and feeding of dead regurgitated lies you call the Bible. It seems like you Christians are as bad as crack addicts, no matter what the damages are done you keep going back to get your next fix, knowing that it will just cause more pain but in the vain hope that it will help. It’s Useless, just so sad and useless.
            May you be well.
            Adam

          • warrior daughter says:

            This is an interesting comment from you in the fact that when I am working with someone who is demonized a lot of their demonic memories that they keep are pieces of sharp jagged glass cutting their very souls apart….Concerning that you call yourself a neo-pagan this is nothing new but reformed ancient religion that is nothing more that one accepting and worshipping demons….I do know some of your gods and they like to do me harm more especially Baal…..Their agenda has been to completely destroy me and my faith but MY God is able overpower them through His name, through His Blood, His protecting power…..You have already received the death shroud from your gods so that you cannot see things clearly but as Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead He is able to take the shroud off of you whereby you will be able to see things as THEY REALLY ARE….

          • Dear “warrior daughter”,
            What is interesting is that you are so deceived by your pastors and other false religious teachers that you really believe that you have any sort of power at all and or that your false god has any power at all. That figment of your overactive imagination you call Jesus and you have NO power. If your Christian god was so powerful he’d be able to help make poor Michael’s wife all better. He (Jesus) dose not because he can’t! His wife needs a good medical doctor to help her get well, the sooner the better. Which I very sincerely hope she dose get better soon. I hate to see people suffer needlessly. This is why I have stood to fight the good fight, because to ignore a deadly virus, spiritual or otherwise, simply gives it time to kill more victims. Like a good doctor fights against physical illnesses, I fight against spiritual ones. I fight because I know just how deadly serious this (Christianity) spiritual sickness is!!! I had hoped to help Michael or others if at all possible. Yet it was in vain, the illness has spread far too deep to be cut out of his soul or yours for that matter. None the less, I did attempt it, but the sickness that inhabits you and yours will not accept the light of reason. Sometimes the sick like being sick for the attention it gets them. Michael is right, I am very well versed in the Torah, the New Testament and the Koran, and all three are lies. Monotheism is a lie. Just do yourself a favor and read Porphyry of Tyre’s book (what’s left of it) “Adversus Christianos” which was so damming that the popes had it burned not just once but many times. You might also read Celsus or Flavius Claudius Julianus or Marcus Tullius Cicero, On the Nature of the Gods [45 BC]. These would all be very good starting places for anyone who wants to know some REAL truth. You are partly right in that Neo-Paganism is the Re-birth of (“Reformed” as you put it) Paleo-Paganism. However Our Gods and Goddesses are so far above you and your false religion that it is laughable that you imagine that your Jibes and lies are worth their notices. Of course you know nothing about the Majesty of the Gods, for their purity and eternal glory elude such a small creature as yourself and Michael. Like I said before the Gods will not punish you, you deliberately punish yourselves by feeding on impious treachery and lies. I feel bad for you all. You spout words like “DEMONS” and no not what you speak of. “DEAMON” (δαίμων) are supernatural beings between mortals and gods, such as ghosts of dead heroes. Yet your false religion has taken this word and twisted it into what it is not. Of course you would not know that. You muddle your mind in wasted and sickly text’s that dull your ability to desire truth. You do not know anything about Thor or Odin or any of the True Gods! Your lips, with their impiety are not worthy to speak their names. You speak of Baal as if he cares about you, as if he had time to notice what to him, is the equivalent of an ameba. For while Baal, (also known as Hadad: a God of storm’s and fertility) is not a God that I worship, I know that your book of falseness has gone out of its way to slander his name. I assure you madam that if Baal or any other deity ever really decided that you were worth exterminating then all the Bibles and all the prayers in Jesus name with all the churches in the world would be of no use to you, for it would all crumble around you like smoking ash, leaving you too your fate, be very, very glad that Baal has taken no notices of your small voice. I see things as they really are it is you that have “The death shroud” about you. It is your ilk that buys into lying wonders performed by trickster prophets like TB Joshua, with his paid off “sick” (really actors) people that take you for all the money they can gather. They cheat old ladies and deceive the ignorant and uneducated, it far off parts of the world. The Christians always have taken advantage of the illiterate and ignorant, for the likes of Paul could never truly stand against the Educated Pagans of his day when taken to task for his lies. Neither can your modern Christians. You are all just inches away form an ocean of knowledge and yet you flop like beached fish, dying for want of truth. It’s just not right, but you and I, as well as all humans, make a choices to live as we do. I can offer you freedom and knowledge but I can not and would not make you drink forcibly! So now that I have made my peace with all of you and have read Michael’s comments for me I move on to try to help others, who hopefully are willing to drink of life instead of eating death. I am truly so
            Sorry for you and the other Christians here to include Michael, for whom I bare no ill will! It is as he said; we must learn to put our time and energy where it will be of the most use. That is not here, no matter how regrettable it may personally be to me. So I bow and take my finial ado, I shall not return again. This is as it ought to be, a clean cut. Farewell,
            Adam

            “Audiens sapiens sapientior erit et intellegens gubernacula possidebit parabolam et interpretationem verba sapientium et enigmata eorum”!

          • You know God and Jesus are not witches.They dont go around healing and acting like doctors to everyone who needs it.Its very funny that you actually think that a God should be everyone’s doctor just because he’s supposed to be powerful.No offence but i just find your statement a bit funny,even though its insaulting.Many people have chose to not believe in God,just due to sad experiences in their lives.But those experiences are that make Christians so loyal and strong to their faith.And thats what i also admire to them too.And hopefully i will become like them one day too.True Christians are not complaining everytime God doesnt help them get better,or everytime they dont get a job,or whatever else.God isnt a saler.He doesnt sell his power.Thats what faith is about.The ABILITY to believe into someone without backing away from it everytime you’re dissapointedd or unlucky.Thats why Christianity differs so much from other religions/beliefs.Its about faith.Not paying-taking-selling powers.

          • michael says:

            This is for the benefit of those reading Adam’s last post only, because Adam says he will not be returning to this forum, and Adam is an honorable man.

            Our God who made the heavens and earth would have no problems in healing my wife, or every sick person in the world for that matter. If it is a question of power, Yahweh has the power and can do it. “I am the God of all flesh, is there anything too difficult for me”.

            The Scripture consistently reveals that the LORD God wants his children to learn to overcome the works of the devil. Not being able to do this in our own power, we learn over time the need to draw near to God, receive His strength and power for our needs, and overcome. At times God heals instantly, and at other times, it is a struggle. At times, we have to make lifestyle changes in order to get answers from God. My wife has changed her diet a lot and stopped living on caffeine to push herself to get results.

            I encourage everyone to simply draw near to God. Presumably one of Adam’s “hard facts” that he has brought to the table is that “It is your ilk that buys into lying wonders performed by trickster prophets like TB Joshua, with his paid off “sick” (really actors) people that take you for all the money they can gather.”

            Adam knows this, of course, without checking out the facts. Those who go to Africa, like my pastor from the Gold Coast, know otherwise. Its a pretty good “act” when poisons spontaneously and visibly break out of cancer wounds and when cancers fall off, when the dead are raised in the presence of medical doctors. Its a pretty good party trick when flesh on the surface of the body is recreated. You’d have to be pretty clever and rich to pay thousands of people for fake healings without anyone there making such charges. But Adam, the knight in shining armour, who has come to rescue us from our Christian darkness – Adam can see through it all without looking! Amazing!

          • What a mess that guy is in, spiritually.

            If it is true that he spent twenty years in church then the fact that he does not know the one true God is an indication that there is something sadly amiss. Maybe it was a waste of time, for him.

            The pagan beliefs he holds to are best summed up by examining the concept of the divine council. The heavenly assembley, created by God to rule over and administer to the day to day lives of mankind.

            A warning against pagan idolatry is found in Deut 4:19

            “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”

            God bless,

            Pete

          • With the recent contributions to the topic of paganism I thought that I would post this description of Baal Worship taken from the French historian, Gustave Flaubert’s work entitled “Salammbo”.

            This ceremony is re-enacted in part by world leaders at the Bohemian Grove meetings every year.

            It portays the absolute evil nature of the demon-gods and is a shocking read so if easily offended, stop here.

            “The arrangements for the sacrifice were already begun.

            Part of a wall in the temple of Moloch was thrown down in order to draw
            out the brazen god without touching the ashes of the altar. Then as
            soon as the sun appeared the hierodules pushed it towards the square of
            Khamon.

            It moved backwards sliding upon cylinders; its shoulders overlapped the
            walls. No sooner did the Carthaginians perceive it in the distance than
            they speedily took to flight, for the Baal could be looked upon with
            impunity only when exercising his wrath.

            A smell of aromatics spread through the streets. All the temples
            had just been opened simultaneously, and from them there came forth
            tabernacles borne upon chariots, or upon litters carried by the
            pontiffs. Great plumes swayed at the corners of them, and rays were
            emitted from their slender pinnacles which terminated in balls of
            crystal, gold, silver or copper.

            These were the Chanaanitish Baalim, offshoots of the supreme Baal, who
            were returning to their first cause to humble themselves before his
            might and annihilate themselves in his splendour.

            Melkarth’s pavilion, which was of fine purple, sheltered a petroleum
            flare; on Khamon’s, which was of hyacinth colour, there rose an ivory
            phallus bordered with a circle of gems; between Eschmoun’s curtains,
            which were as blue as the ether, a sleeping python formed a circle with
            his tail, and the Pataec gods, held in the arms of their priests, looked
            like great infants in swaddling clothes with their heels touching the
            ground.

            Then came all the inferior forms of the Divinity: Baal-Samin, god of
            celestial space; Baal-Peor, god of the sacred mountains; Baal-Zeboub,
            god of corruption, with those of the neighbouring countries and
            congenerous races: the Iarbal of Libya, the Adramelech of Chaldaea,
            the Kijun of the Syrians; Derceto, with her virgin’s face, crept on
            her fins, and the corpse of Tammouz was drawn along in the midst of a
            catafalque among torches and heads of hair. In order to subdue the kings
            of the firmament to the Sun, and prevent their particular influences
            from disturbing his, diversely coloured metal stars were brandished
            at the end of long poles; and all were there, from the dark Neblo, the
            genius of Mercury, to the hideous Rahab, which is the constellation of
            the Crocodile. The Abbadirs, stones which had fallen from the moon, were
            whirling in slings of silver thread; little loaves, representing the
            female form, were born on baskets by the priests of Ceres; others
            brought their fetishes and amulets; forgotten idols reappeared, while
            the mystic symbols had been taken from the very ships as though Carthage
            wished to concentrate herself wholly upon a single thought of death and
            desolation.

            Before each tabernacle a man balanced a large vase of smoking incense on
            his head. Clouds hovered here and there, and the hangings, pendants,
            and embroideries of the sacred pavilions might be distinguished amid
            the thick vapours. These advanced slowly owing to their enormous weight.
            Sometimes the axles became fast in the streets; then the pious took
            advantage of the opportunity to touch the Baalim with their garments,
            which they preserved afterwards as holy things.

            The brazen statue continued to advance towards the square of Khamon. The
            rich, carrying sceptres with emerald balls, set out from the bottom
            of Megara; the Ancients, with diadems on their heads, had assembled in
            Kinisdo, and masters of the finances, governors of provinces, sailors,
            and the numerous horde employed at funerals, all with the insignia of
            their magistracies or the instruments of their calling, were making
            their way towards the tabernacles which were descending from the
            Acropolis between the colleges of the pontiffs.

            Out of deference to Moloch they had adorned themselves with the most
            splendid jewels. Diamonds sparkled on their black garments; but their
            rings were too large and fell from their wasted hands,–nor could there
            have been anything so mournful as this silent crowd where earrings
            tapped against pale faces, and gold tiaras clasped brows contracted with
            stern despair.

            At last the Baal arrived exactly in the centre of the square. His
            pontiffs arranged an enclosure with trellis-work to keep off the
            multitude, and remained around him at his feet.

            The priests of Khamon, in tawny woollen robes, formed a line before
            their temple beneath the columns of the portico; those of Eschmoun, in
            linen mantles with necklaces of koukouphas’ heads and pointed tiaras,
            posted themselves on the steps of the Acropolis; the priests of
            Melkarth, in violet tunics, took the western side; the priests of the
            Abbadirs, clasped with bands of Phrygian stuffs, placed themselves on
            the east, while towards the south, with the necromancers all covered
            with tattooings, and the shriekers in patched cloaks, were ranged the
            curates of the Pataec gods, and the Yidonim, who put the bone of a dead
            man into their mouths to learn the future. The priests of Ceres, who
            were dressed in blue robes, had prudently stopped in the street of
            Satheb, and in low tones were chanting a thesmophorion in the Megarian
            dialect.

            From time to time files of men arrived, completely naked, their arms
            outstretched, and all holding one another by the shoulders. From
            the depths of their breasts they drew forth a hoarse and cavernous
            intonation; their eyes, which were fastened upon the colossus, shone
            through the dust, and they swayed their bodies simultaneously, and at
            equal distances, as though they were all affected by a single movement.
            They were so frenzied that to restore order the hierodules compelled
            them, with blows of the stick, to lie flat upon the ground, with their
            faces resting against the brass trellis-work.

            Then it was that a man in a white robe advanced from the back of the
            square. He penetrated the crowd slowly, and people recognised a priest
            of Tanith–the high-priest Schahabarim. Hootings were raised, for the
            tyranny of the male principle prevailed that day in all consciences, and
            the goddess was actually so completely forgotten that the absence of her
            pontiffs had not been noticed. But the amazement was increased when he
            was seen to open one of the doors of the trellis-work intended for
            those who intended to offer up victims. It was an outrage to their god,
            thought the priests of Moloch, that he had just committed, and they
            sought with eager gestures to repel him. Fed on the meat of the
            holocausts, clad in purple like kings, and wearing triple-storied
            crowns, they despised the pale eunuch, weakened with his macerations,
            and angry laughter shook their black beards, which were displayed on
            their breasts in the sun.

            Schahabarim walked on, giving no reply, and, traversing the whole
            enclosure with deliberation, reached the legs of the colossus; then,
            spreading out both arms, he touched it on both sides, which was a solemn
            form of adoration. For a long time Rabbet had been torturing him, and
            in despair, or perhaps for lack of a god that completely satisfied his
            ideas, he had at last decided for this one.

            The crowd, terrified by this act of apostasy, uttered a lengthened
            murmur. It was felt that the last tie which bound their souls to a
            merciful divinity was breaking.

            But owing to his mutilation, Schahabarim could take no part in the cult
            of the Baal. The men in the red cloaks shut him out from the enclosure;
            then, when he was outside, he went round all the colleges in succession,
            and the priest, henceforth without a god, disappeared into the crowd. It
            scattered at his approach.

            Meanwhile a fire of aloes, cedar, and laurel was burning between the
            legs of the colossus. The tips of its long wings dipped into the flame;
            the unguents with which it had been rubbed flowed like sweat over its
            brazen limbs. Around the circular flagstone on which its feet rested,
            the children, wrapped in black veils, formed a motionless circle; and
            its extravagantly long arms reached down their palms to them as though
            to seize the crown that they formed and carry it to the sky.

            The rich, the Ancients, the women, the whole multitude, thronged behind
            the priests and on the terraces of the houses. The large painted stars
            revolved no longer; the tabernacles were set upon the ground; and the
            fumes from the censers ascended perpendicularly, spreading their bluish
            branches through the azure like gigantic trees.

            Many fainted; others became inert and petrified in their ecstasy.
            Infinite anguish weighed upon the breasts of the beholders. The
            last shouts died out one by one,–and the people of Carthage stood
            breathless, and absorbed in the longing of their terror.

            At last the high priest of Moloch passed his left hand beneath the
            children’s veils, plucked a lock of hair from their foreheads, and threw
            it upon the flames. Then the men in the red cloaks chanted the sacred
            hymn:

            “Homage to thee, Sun! king of the two zones, self-generating Creator,
            Father and Mother, Father and Son, God and Goddess, Goddess and God!”
            And their voices were lost in the outburst of instruments sounding
            simultaneously to drown the cries of the victims. The eight-stringed
            scheminiths, the kinnors which had ten strings, and the nebals which
            had twelve, grated, whistled, and thundered. Enormous leathern bags,
            bristling with pipes, made a shrill clashing noise; the tabourines,
            beaten with all the players’ might, resounded with heavy, rapid blows;
            and, in spite of the fury of the clarions, the salsalim snapped like
            grasshoppers’ wings.

            The hierodules, with a long hook, opened the seven-storied compartments
            on the body of the Baal. They put meal into the highest, two
            turtle-doves into the second, an ape into the third, a ram into the
            fourth, a sheep into the fifth, and as no ox was to be had for the
            sixth, a tawny hide taken from the sanctuary was thrown into it. The
            seventh compartment yawned empty still.

            Before undertaking anything it was well to make trial of the arms of the
            god. Slender chainlets stretched from his fingers up to his shoulders
            and fell behind, where men by pulling them made the two hands rise to a
            level with the elbows, and come close together against the belly; they
            were moved several times in succession with little abrupt jerks. Then
            the instruments were still. The fire roared.

            The pontiffs of Moloch walked about on the great flagstone scanning the
            multitude.

            An individual sacrifice was necessary, a perfectly voluntary oblation,
            which was considered as carrying the others along with it. But no one
            had appeared up to the present, and the seven passages leading from the
            barriers to the colossus were completely empty. Then the priests, to
            encourage the people, drew bodkins from their girdles and gashed their
            faces. The Devotees, who were stretched on the ground outside, were
            brought within the enclosure. A bundle of horrible irons was thrown to
            them, and each chose his own torture. They drove in spits between their
            breasts; they split their cheeks; they put crowns of thorns upon their
            heads; then they twined their arms together, and surrounded the children
            in another large circle which widened and contracted in turns. They
            reached to the balustrade, they threw themselves back again, and then
            began once more, attracting the crowd to them by the dizziness of their
            motion with its accompanying blood and shrieks.

            By degrees people came into the end of the passages; they flung into
            the flames pearls, gold vases, cups, torches, all their wealth; the
            offerings became constantly more numerous and more splendid. At last a
            man who tottered, a man pale and hideous with terror, thrust forward
            a child; then a little black mass was seen between the hands of the
            colossus, and sank into the dark opening. The priests bent over the edge
            of the great flagstone,–and a new song burst forth celebrating the joys
            of death and of new birth into eternity.

            The children ascended slowly, and as the smoke formed lofty eddies as
            it escaped, they seemed at a distance to disappear in a cloud. Not
            one stirred. Their wrists and ankles were tied, and the dark drapery
            prevented them from seeing anything and from being recognised.

            Hamilcar, in a red cloak, like the priests of Moloch, was beside the
            Baal, standing upright in front of the great toe of its right foot. When
            the fourteenth child was brought every one could see him make a great
            gesture of horror. But he soon resumed his former attitude, folded his
            arms, and looked upon the ground. The high pontiff stood on the other
            side of the statue as motionless as he. His head, laden with an Assyrian
            mitre, was bent, and he was watching the gold plate on his breast; it
            was covered with fatidical stones, and the flame mirrored in it formed
            irisated lights. He grew pale and dismayed. Hamilcar bent his brow; and
            they were both so near the funeral-pile that the hems of their cloaks
            brushed it as they rose from time to time.

            The brazen arms were working more quickly. They paused no longer. Every
            time that a child was placed in them the priests of Moloch spread
            out their hands upon him to burden him with the crimes of the people,
            vociferating: “They are not men but oxen!” and the multitude round
            about repeated: “Oxen! oxen!” The devout exclaimed: “Lord! eat!” and
            the priests of Proserpine, complying through terror with the needs of
            Carthage, muttered the Eleusinian formula: “Pour out rain! bring forth!”

            The victims, when scarcely at the edge of the opening, disappeared like
            a drop of water on a red-hot plate, and white smoke rose amid the great
            scarlet colour.

            Nevertheless, the appetite of the god was not appeased. He ever wished
            for more. In order to furnish him with a larger supply, the victims were
            piled up on his hands with a big chain above them which kept them in
            their place. Some devout persons had at the beginning wished to count
            them, to see whether their number corresponded with the days of
            the solar year; but others were brought, and it was impossible to
            distinguish them in the giddy motion of the horrible arms. This lasted
            for a long, indefinite time until the evening. Then the partitions
            inside assumed a darker glow, and burning flesh could be seen. Some even
            believed that they could descry hair, limbs, and whole bodies.

            Night fell; clouds accumulated above the Baal. The funeral-pile, which
            was flameless now, formed a pyramid of coals up to his knees; completely
            red like a giant covered with blood, he looked, with his head
            thrown back, as though he were staggering beneath the weight of his
            intoxication.

            In proportion as the priests made haste, the frenzy of the people
            increased; as the number of the victims was diminishing, some cried
            out to spare them, others that still more were needful. The walls, with
            their burden of people, seemed to be giving way beneath the howlings
            of terror and mystic voluptuousness. Then the faithful came into the
            passages, dragging their children, who clung to them; and they beat them
            in order to make them let go, and handed them over to the men in red.
            The instrument-players sometimes stopped through exhaustion; then the
            cries of the mothers might be heard, and the frizzling of the fat as it
            fell upon the coals. The henbane-drinkers crawled on all fours around
            the colossus, roaring like tigers; the Yidonim vaticinated, the Devotees
            sang with their cloven lips; the trellis-work had been broken through,
            all wished for a share in the sacrifice;–and fathers, whose children
            had died previously, cast their effigies, their playthings, their
            preserved bones into the fire. Some who had knives rushed upon the rest.
            They slaughtered one another. The hierodules took the fallen ashes at
            the edge of the flagstone in bronze fans, and cast them into the air
            that the sacrifice might be scattered over the town and even to the
            region of the stars.

            The loud noise and great light had attracted the Barbarians to the foot
            of the walls; they clung to the wreck of the helepolis to have a better
            view, and gazed open-mouthed in horror.”

            What an apsolutely evil scene is portayed here.

            We are to reject such pagan idolatory. Turn to God and worship at the feet of the Lord of Lords.

            Halellujah.

            God Bless

            Pete

          • michael says:

            Adam praises his gods, and refers us to some obscure texts that very few people have ever heard of. If these gods are as concerned about humanity as Adam says that he is, surely they would have given some clear proofs of their own glory by now, and left us some reliable ideas about who they are. Adam dismissed stories about Jesus in the New Testament as basically “legends”, but they look like historical records to me, and not written in such a way as to flatter the authors either! The writings which speak of the polytheistic pagan gods are legends, and to my knowledge have no serious connection with any known places or historical events. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. So much of the stories in pagan religions are so much like “once upon a time in a land far away …”

          • Adam, we have to learn to distinguish between things we can do or might be able to do and things we believe are worth doing. After 20 years of being some sort of Christian, you have evidently decided to deny that Jesus or the Holy Spirit even exists, and you view the Bible as a pack of harmful lies. In my mind the valuable resources of time and energy I could spend answering your objections (at least to my satisfaction, if not yours) have to be spent in other ways at this time. We all make choices about where we think we can best invest our time. It seems to me that you are being rather smug by assuming that just because I don’t keep on and on with the discussion it means that I am unable to offer any meaningful response to the so-called “hard facts” you are bringing up, and that that is the reason I am “bailing”. I won’t be manipulated by such suggestions.

            You are speaking with someone that has believed the promises in the Bible and has seen deaf mutes healed in remote villages in India through actions I have taken such as rebuking demons in Jesus’ name or laying hands on people. Many many other miracles I have witnessed. These things are not in my power to control or I would not be perplexed by my own wife’s own health setbacks. (She had a dead tooth which was poisoning her body). What I can say is that prayer in the name of Jesus can work dramatically. What I have seen on video with T.B. Joshua is just like what I have experienced myself but more so. Give glory to your gods if you want to, but we were busy casting out such beings as you worship, and people were getting healed.

            I see no point in discussing the ethics of the Jesus of the Bible with you. What interests me, first and foremost, is the issue of whether Jesus of Nazareth is alive today. I contend that He is. God gives proofs, but never so many as to overwhelm people and leave no possible room for doubt. Its always possible to create unbelieving constructions on everything faster than believers can refute them, just as it is easier to create garbage than to clean it up. Its also possible to respond in faith to God. God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

            Yes, hell is real, and plenty of people now who were clinically dead and resuscitated have seen the horrors of it. These were mostly people who never believed in the reality of such a place. A knowledge of Greek and Hebrew won’t save you here. Neither will your disbelief. Realities are there which do not ask our permission to exist.

            The Christian faith is not dying. Rather, it is the unbelieving versions of it which are dying – those that have a form of godliness but deny the power of God. Go to Brazil or Argentina or China or Africa or India and try to tell me that Christianity is dying. Hah! It is the occultists who are losing ground in those places.

            Just as paganism was overcome in the past, by people who were closer to the historical facts, so Jesus Christ, who is well able to reveal Himself again today, will destroy all the renewed efforts of the devil. Perhaps by His second coming. It remains to be seen how God will do it.

            I contend that because Jesus rose from the dead, the grave is empty and the church was built on that confession, the Jesus you do not believe in will ultimately triumph. He, having been dead, but now alive, has the authority to tell us what actually lies beyond death’s door. And you don’t like what He says. It is nothing like what your philosophical speculations and superstitions would propose. Since you are well versed in the Bible, I don’t need to remind you.

            At some point things need to be rounded off. I don’t know if it can be done cleanly but all I can say is I hope that God’s truth will prevail in your life before it is too late.

          • pshrader says:

            It saddens me greatly when I see and obviously intelligent individual chose to not only turn their back on God, but to begin to worship other gods (demons) in order to justify their sin. The reason Adam cannot just ignore the Christian faith, but must condemn it is because of what God has written in his heart. He knows the sin he is living in is wrong, but instead of coming to Christ for forgiveness, he denies he ever existed. Some people run from Jesus, others chose to turn and fight. Adam has clearly chosen to fight, but it’s a fight he cannot win. Adam’s fight with Jesus will end either one of two ways. Either he will lose and spend eternity in hell or he will finally surrender to God’s will. I ran from Jesus for most of my life, but in the end, I surrendered. Praise God that I did. I pray that Adam will eventually stop fighting God and surrender. Then he will know what true freedom is all about.

    • Jesus was known for his compassion to the poor, the outcast, the widows and the sick. The Scripture does reveal He had a disregard for business enterprises which were clearly in violation of God’s law. In those days, pigs were forbidden meat (for good health reasons too). So if the demons wanted to go into the pigs and destroy them, good riddance. Would you rather the demons stayed in the man to torment him? This is where Jesus is different to many today. Many would put commercial interests way above the interests of the peace of the soul of man. So they sell pornography, set up casinos, deal in drugs and so forth – all proven soul destroyers. These things are big money enterprises. Jesus hates them and if enough Christians prayed in faith God would close these things down. It has happened before. People BEFORE profits. Hardly cruelty.

      Some professing Christians are cruel and hard hearted. That is because we have failed to reveal Christ and have instead at times followed after the things Jesus hates – like avarice, lust and the praise of men.

      Some professing Christians are not disciples of Jesus at all, but were opportunistic religionists seeking to conquer the world using religion as a means to that end. Hence wars in the name of religion.

      • The Bible talks of the compassion of Jesus, yet it seems to be for the select few who gave him the money he sought after, you’ll have no doubt have noticed that it was rich women that primarily funded his ministry.. As you pointed out the Bible shows his disregard for the business of others, which is by extension is a disregard for civil society, which is based of the very real need of people to be able to earn a living. No where in the incident with the savagely drowned and murdered pigs dose the Bible say they were being kept for food stock purposes. Shoes have been made from multiple layers of swine skins (a very cruel practice, I am vegan in case you want to know.) So the Pigs in question could have been kept for many reasons, not just the one you assume. Even so, if they were being kept for food, there were Goyim (Gentiles) in that area that had no such restriction on their diets, as the Torahs 613 commandments do not apply to them. There were after all Paleo-Pagans. Pork was an acceptable food for them and was offered at the temple of Zeus. Another question that is over looked here is why not just cast them out? Why cast them into anything else at all? Neither the man nor the animals (humans are just another animal after all) had to suffer needlessly. This action (if it had really happened) by Jesus would be very cruel indeed, just is as our habit of hurting animals today. As for the other things you mention here, well, gambling when done with responsibility is not a bad thing. The same can be said with most other activities. Anything in excess is bad for you. All it takes is a little reasoning to know what to do and what not to do. And as you say, there are good Christians and Bad Christians. It just seems a shame to me, that more of your co-religionists seem to be the later instead of the former. I for one would sit and eat with any kind person, regardless of their professed faith or none at all as long as they are kind people. Thus the character of Jesus, as portrayed in the Bible, I would most likely not sit with.
        Adam

        • michael says:

          Adam writes: “The Bible talks of the compassion of Jesus, yet it seems to be for the select few who gave him the money he sought after, you’ll have no doubt have noticed that it was rich women that primarily funded his ministry.”

          I don’t know which Bible Adam is reading, but Jesus frequently healed “all who came to him” and they brought multitudes to him at times. For example:

          Mark 1:32 At evening, when the sun had set, they brought to Him all who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.
          Mark 1:33 And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
          Mark 1:34 Then He healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.

          Jesus did many signs and wonders.

          John 21:25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

          There is no record of Jesus asking those he healed to fund his ministry. Jesus told his disciples, “Freely you have received, freely give”. And I am sure that was His policy also.

          Multitudes were attracted to Jesus because of his compassion for the poor. But the Pharisees hated him, because they were lovers of money and Jesus was not good for their business.

          Adam, the spirits in you really hate Jesus, to the point where it seems you cannot even read the text of the gospels straight.

          I am not going to let this site become a forum for unreasonable blasphemies, so I think it is better that we leave it here as long as you want to calumnify Jesus.

    • You write: “We would part on the “holy sprit” part, a non entity, with no power.”

      It is good for you that you obviously have no knowledge of the Holy Spirit, because if you had, I doubt if God could forgive you for saying that.

      You need to get acquainted with what the Holy Spirit is doing through men of God today. I have seen miracles of God which He has worked through my own life, but I am nowhere near some people in faith. Again I would refer you to “T.B. Joshua” or even look up “John Mellor” if you want a western example. “Rambabu” who features on my website is opening the door for tremendous miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, in India and even in western nations. “Heidi Baker” is another good example of someone filled with the Spirit of God, as would be “Bill Johnson” in California. Do some research if you care to be informed. These things are a matter of public record and can be seen on youtube and by going to the various places.

      You are speaking in total ignorance, so that is forgivable. The Holy Spirit is the one by whose executive power the Universe is upheld.

    • You write: “I am glad that some Christians believe it’s good to care of the earth. Yet so far as I have seen it is not a core Christian belief and it is one that has only begun in more recent times. Most Christians that I have come into contact with think that because the tribal deity of the ancient Hebrews gave them so called “dominion” over the earth that they can blatantly rape our mother planet.”

      God gave authority over the earth to Adam, Eve and their descendants. It was to CARE for the garden, not to rape and destroy the earth. So the mandate is there from Day One in the Judeo Christian worldview, not something coming only “in recent times” as if in response to the doctrines of pagans.

      In the Book of Revelation it talks about God destroying those who destroy the earth, so there is the flip side.

    • I haven’t time to reply further right now.

  14. JustAGuy says:

    I am replying to a post I cannot even read. I see the title in the left menu, but cannot pull up the post. I am assuming this is a question from Adam to myself, so if I am wrong, you know why and you know what I just made of myself!

    There is plenty of middle ground when it comes to Pagans and Christians. We find ourselves in the midst of it every day. I work around all kinds of people and see young pagans along the way. I enjoy saying hello and being friendly. It is not like they have anything that will jump out and bite me.

    If I were to log into a pagan board and have a candid dialog, I presume my beliefs would be soundly challenged by the group and one or two might curse me openly and others privately. There is one kingdom at war and the greater kingdom is biding its time until “the fulness of times has come” then the curse will be broken off this planet and the inhabitants will rejoice!

    The place for friend making between Pagans and Christians is not on a forum where one faith system is there to proclaim its beliefs. This forum will generate discussion and perhaps greater understanding of each other’s position, but friendships among opposing view holders is not possible when they are focused on promoting their views. Two cannot walk together, unless they are agreed.

    The question, “Can there be no middle ground?” Seems inaccurate in that it implies a state of war between the people themselves. I am not at war with you Adam, and I know you are not at war with me – but the kingdom you represent is at war against the kingdom I represent on this board. There is middle ground for getting along, but not for spiritual communion. There is only so close we can come to each other without that invisible wall separating.

    Its been an interesting conversation Adam. May the Lord grant you peace as you place your trust in Him. I hope in all our conversation that I have not gone “over the top” with you and denigrated you as a human being. If I have, please let me know so I can improve my behavior.

    Blessings and Peace,
    Timothy

    • jesseedavis says:

      I don’t know why, but it won’t take you to other pages of this article. Just scroll down and click on page two, Tim, it’s all there for you to read. You’re right though, it was a reply to you.

    • horns4plenty says:

      Hey Timothy,

      Regarding not being able to read the post from Adam to you;try scrolling all the way to the bottom of the page it sends you to and it should offer you a second page to scroll to. I was having same problem earlier and this is how I figured it out.
      I also wanted to thank you for being such a encouragement to me. Thank you and God Bless all the days of your life

      Corey

    • if you believe in the confession you made to Melodycat- then remove this posting & related postings, so that young Christians are not misled.

      • JustAGuy says:

        Peer,

        I cannot edit my posts that have been replied to. This I will say for the record. The middle ground is not one of communion, it is one of coexistence. We do not have commonality with pagans, but we do not go around berating them on their message boards or personally attacking them. They are God’s children who are lost. We are to love our neighbors and are commanded to even love our enemies (those who have made themselves enemies to us) for thereby ‘be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.”

        We occupy a place in this earth and are commanded to walk in love with all men. This is the middle ground to which I refer – not a place of fellowship, but a place of accepting that their choices are their choices and moving on with our lives as Christians free of their influence. Sincerely, do you see a problem with that brother?

        Blessings and Peace,
        Timothy

  15. Hello. :) I have a question to ask/a statement to share after reading your post on Paganism.

    First off, I’d like to go ahead and say that I am Pagan. A polytheistic Pagan, yes. I believe in, and respect, many gods and goddesses, however I choose to worship only those that call on me. I am not Wiccan, as I associate that term with Gerald Gardener’s practice which came around in the 1940s (He was, after all, the one who came up with the term “Wicca”, so if I want to call myself that then I suppose I’d have to play by all of his rules, and I don’t. :P). I am however, a practicing witch.

    Secondly, I believe in the Christian God. I simply do not believe that he is the only god (obviously). Would that mean that I am calling the Christian God a liar since He is insisting that He is the only God? Eh. I’m not saying that that is not a possibility (no disrespect). But I also think that perhaps, the followers of the Christian God are meant to focus completely on Him, and no other. I do not worship the Christian God, and so that rule does not apply to me. If that is what the followers of Christ are called to do, then … that’s that. I have all of the respect and understanding in the world for that. I believe in many gods, and I do not think that so many people in the world are worshiping…nothing.

    Anyway. My question is about how you asked how we Pagans know that our gods and “spirits” that we speak to are not of harmful intent? Well, we aren’t stupid, heh. We have a conscience, same as you. If something *feels* wrong, 9 times out of 10, it is. Wiccans, and most eclectic witches like myself, live beneath the rule “An if it harm none, do as thou wilt.” Christians, and people of other religions, all falter in their life. You think that you are doing good and are genuinely trying to, but sometimes you don’t see the harm you’re inflicting. This has nothing to do with our deities. We know that the gods and goddesses we choose to worship mean well just as you know your God means well. If you want, I could turn the question back around to you. How do you know God is not some evil entity who wrote a book to brainwash all of mankind? Please don’t say that the Bible tells us so. :/ That’s circular logic, and I mean no disrespect when I jump to the assumption that you would say that.. But I’ve had this discussion with several Christians and that’s always the first argument they use. We know that our deities mean well because we see results, just the same as you. It’s all about what we believe. You cannot prove that your God isn’t some evil, malicious, manipulative deity anymore than we can.

    I do look up to your God, and have prayed to Him when I felt that I needed His guidance on matters that branched out of the Christian faith and its followers. I pray to whatever god or goddess is associated with whatever problem I may encounter. Just the same as if I needed a shoe repaired, I would take it to a shoe repair shop. I would not take my questions and issues that pertain to Christians or Christianity to any other god. I do believe in that power. I simply do not believe that there is anything that I can serve Him with or that my path leads there, and I personally believe that He knows that. I serve my own gods and goddesses that call to me, and I worship them.

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Hi Whimsy, Interesting questions. I had to answer these questions when I was a child. The Bible is clear that there are gods. The Lord is called “The Most High” The Bible also gives an accounting of the origin of the gods. In the Old testament God says the Israelites worshipped devils.

      Deuteronomy 32:15-18 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

      They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

      This is the context with which one must reckon. The Christian God either is who He says He is, or He isn’t. One cannot simply lump him in with a grouping of their choice.

      Think of the universe. It is ordered and run magnificently. Think of the name “uni” verse. It operates in unity. One-ness. The gods are not in agreement. They often have conflicts among themselves – a read of the mythologies shows that they operate out of pettiness many times. Our universe shows a unity of thought and design and of the might and power to sustain that cannot come from a fractitious board of directors known as gods.

      The credo “An if it harm none, do as thou wilt.” Counters nature and human nature. People often follow that with their limited vision and follow after passions that indeed cause harm. How many sexually transmitted diseases are spread knowingly, or caught unknowingly by people who were ‘doing as they wilt’ not expecting harm, but receiving it nonetheless.

      Jesus Christ offered his life so that man can be freed from the penalty of sin. What god ever did that? They claim there is no sin. They do not have the authority to do that. Which gets back to the primary point. The Christian God created ALL things – therefore He has the right to explain to His creation WHY it exists, and HOW to operate in that existence. When one follows the 10 commandments, there is peace and it all “works”.

      Now, if one desires to be contentious and argue each point, they can always do that, but then they WILL face the Creator one day soon and the consequences will not be desirable, nor escapable. Thats just the way it is. When one creates ALL things, it is only logical they did it for a reason, or purpose. It is only just that they tell their creation why they were born, where they are going, what reward awaits those who obey, and what results end up for those who disobey. We can try to rewrite the whole thing, but it is foolishness when we evidently have zero power to enforce our will in the eternal plan.

      God did create, and God created with a time table in mind that concludes with the devil and his angels being cast into the Lake of Fire and those who worship them cast in with them. You see Whimsy, God created you in His image and He has given you this time to come to Him and accept Him for who He is, or reject Him. The choice is yours…. I recommend you to get off the fence and take a year to SERIOUSLY examine the claims He makes in the Bible and put Him to the test in your life by doing as He says and giving Him the chance to be Lord of your life.

      “God is, and He is a rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.” I challenge you to seek Him on HIS terms, not YOURS, and you will find the love, joy and peace your heart longs for. You will find a Comforter in the storm and a Savior from the destruction that must come upon a world intent on destroying itself and one another.

      Blessings and Peace as you seek the One True God with ALL your heart,
      Timothy

    • Whimsy,

      I am not going to jump out at you or attempt to change your thinking. You seem to be very comfortable- in your paganism. I can only tell you a true story.

      Many years back, a relative of mine was involved in a motorbike accident. She died but was revived. After revival, she was filled with fear of the dark and found it impossible to speak out in front of people- fear ruled her.

      This relative- Ruth, had become a Christian at 16, shortly before this accident. Now her life went she was committed in her beliefs and derived much joy from these. But nothing could rid her of this “fear”- nor could she speak publicly or even in front of small groups.

      One day she was invited to a gathering of Christians. Christians who not only had believed in Jesus but were filled with the Holy Spirit. During the gathering- a brother stood up and declared, the Lord says so: “There is a woman in this room, one who is oppressed by a spirit of death. This woman is filled with fear and cannot speak out. I am here to set her free” The Lord says, “Stand Up”

      As the man was speaking, Ruth stood up. The man walked over to her and commanded the spirit to depart and laid hands on her. Ruth fell to the floor- and they left her there. Some time later, she recovered and stood up. Walked straight to the microphone and gave her testimony before 40 other people- perfectly and flawlessly- ending with, “There is no fear, I am now free”.

      Ruth was freed from a crippling condition that impacted all areas of her life. She was filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of freedom- and instantly without ceremony, without ritual- she became a fearless warrior for God. As she stated to me privately, “Peer for 18 years I knew God- I knew I was His” yet in one moment- my life changed, it was as if I had experienced God at a great distance, it was as if for 18 years, I had lain besides a dried up watering hole catching the drops, drip by drop.” But now I can see, now the river runs through me. And a river it was- the River of the Holy Spirit.

      ——————————

      You see Whimsy- there is a God and the great promise of God is that those who change their mind and reject SELF and the world around and believe and trust in his Son, will be cleaned, restored and will receive the greatest gift that man can receive, greater than kingdoms, the Holy Spirit.

      These would go on to do the works of the Holy Spirit. Just the work that was done to and for Ruth- cleaning and clearing out spirits, serpents and whatever that had latched on to them. They would walk bubbling with joy and filled with life. These would speak out with power- the power that penetrates through the mind and roots itself in the spirit.

      Today- many believers and unbelievers are seeing what Jesus can do through his Precious Spirit. Christians who were powerless are becoming empowered. Those who did not know Jesus are seeing the work of His Spirit and throwing themselves at his feet- so they too can benefit.

      ———————–

      For many years, the Christian Church, walked bent over and crippled in the same way Ruth was crippled- not necessarily by a spirit of death, but sick and grasping a form of religion rather than the power of God which comes with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

      But now today, the Son of God is spreading his wings- preparing His People for His Return. He is pouring out His Spirit both on his sons and daughters, those who previously were weak and crippled are now are rising up in strength. They are no longer preaching religion- but demonstrating the life and power of God.

      He is also drawing to Himself, those who don’t believe amongst whom are pagans like yourself. Jesus is drawing to himself those who are bold and are willing to believe that they deserve the best- and the best is the Son of God and his precious gift of the Holy Spirit.

      Why is this happening today Whimsy?

      Well, the same Spirit is telling us that the Son of God is returning. The world of 2009- and the world in ten years will be entirely different worlds. We are going to see great sea movements, movements in the Heavens- believe it- nothing is going to be like it is today- nothing. Fear and calamity is coming to this world. And God is strengthening his own and calling out to those who yet do not know Him.

      Now Whimsy- you may carry on worshiping your gods and goddesses. this is your prerogative. If paganism is where you wish to be- then stay there. The Son of God is precious, His blood shed for mankind is the most precious substance in the whole of Creation- it is the elixir of life- for those who are worthy- for those who know its value. In the same way, His Spirit, which is here to be poured out on those who thirst is the river of life. No longer is the Spirit spoken about- now we are experiencing its power, in the same way as in the day of Jesus.

      For each man and woman there is a day when God speaks to them- those who are wise should not miss that day. My advice is- don’t accept what is useless and without life when life is offered to you. When you too can join to the Son of God and receive His gift of the Holy Spirit.

      ———————

      If you are bold and fearless and decide to choose life in place of death, the Son of God rather than these lying spirits- you know what you have to do. If you don’t, ask!

      Peer

    • Walk in the Light says:
      Hi Whimsy,

      I appreciated reading your post and I think you asked some good questions. I, for one, would not be game to accuse you of calling God a liar, because …
      a) I don’t know what is leading you to question His claims, and
      b) I don’t know if you’ve ever read much of the Bible.
      It is quite important thing to do in matters like this because “your decisions are only as good as your facts”. (Don’t know who said that but it’s true!) And since we are talking about what different gods are like, we should consider what is written in the Christian God’s book.

      After reading your post, I see a fundamental difference in your approach to Spirituality and the Christian understanding. It seems to me that you have learnt how to use various gods to get what you want, and therefore if the Christian God can offer something that no other one can, why not take what He has to offer when it suits?

      Throughout history many different people/religions have approached their god(s) in the same way – work out what you have to do to stop them getting angry, and then what to do to get what you want. The God of the Bible is different in a huge way. He encourages us to call Him Father, He longs for us to turn to Him with our whole heart, He desires for us to get to know Him, what He likes and what He dislikes, He teaches us the things that are best for us in this life and those things that will be harmful. He warns us when we are out of line and disciplines us if we persist in doing wrong things. Even during discipline, His aim is for our good, not to ‘vent His anger’. This understanding helps us to develop a relationship with our God, rather than just treat Him like a vending machine. The relationship is like a child to a loving parent.

      So, to your questions:

      You say…
      “My question is about how you asked how we Pagans know that our gods and “spirits” that we speak to are not of harmful intent? Well, we aren’t stupid…”

      With all due respect, the issue is not whether Pagans are stupid. The problem is the overwhelmingly superior intellect and resources of spiritual entities. Not only are they ageless with perfect memory and recall, they have the ability to move in and out of our range of electro-magnetic frequency, perfectly recreating any natural phenomenon they wish to. Stephen Hawkings, next to one of these beings, would be a total brain dead numbskull!!! (Therefore, compared to these beings we are all morons). It is interesting therefore to note that in the book of Revelation we are told that Satan will deceive the majority of humanity because of these abilities. That is, most people underestimate his abilities and think all miracles automatically must be from God or some being with good intentions.

      The maxim you quote: “An if it harm none, do as thou wilt” assumes much. It assumes that your judgment is accurate of a thing being harmful to yourself or others. The God of the Bible however has this to say: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding…be not wise in your own eyes.”

      So then, the question is: Can you trust your judgment (mortal, limited & based on limited information) as opposed to advice given by the Designer of Sustainer of all life?

      You say…
      “We know that our deities mean well because we see results, just the same as you.”

      I would ask, what makes you think that is trustworthy? What would the motive of these other spiritual entities be? Some say they have nothing else in mind than the betterment of humanity. But, according to the Bible, their aim is to destroy. They are more than happy to prosper you in this life if that means you will lose out on an eternity with the God they are in rebellion against. Remember, they can’t hurt or attack God themselves, but they can hurt Him by leading us away from Him to ultimate destruction.

      The Bible this… the Bible that…

      … it all comes down to the claims of this one book. And so, you raise the question about the motives of the God who supernaturally authored the book.

      There are 2 factors that you need to consider:
      a) God’s “claim to fame” is the ability to accurately predict the future, with a 100% success rate. There have been hundreds and hundreds of prophecies given in the Bible and the majority of them have been fulfilled, with just a small number of prophecies pointing into the near future yet to be fulfilled. He even says,

      The LORD Almighty, has this to say: “I am the first, the last, the only God; there is no other god but me. Could anyone else have done what I did? Who could have predicted all that would happen from the very beginning to the end of time?

      “You gods of the nations, present your case. Bring the best arguments you have! Come here and predict what will happen, so that we will know it when it takes place. Explain the events of the past, and tell us what they mean. Tell us what the future holds— then we will know that you are gods!

      There is much that could be said about Bible prophecy, but to summarise: The test of true prophecy is that it is always correct. If a prophecy does not come to pass it is either not from the true God, it hasn’t happened yet, or it has been misunderstood/misinterpreted.

      That leads us to the second factor:
      b) If the God of the Bible is malicious or of evil intent, the joke is really on everyone for sure and nothing is dear to Him. That He might go to all the trouble to send His Son to this earth, to live a life without any mistakes (aka sin) and submit Himself to the most debasing and cruel treatment, even after doing nothing but blessing and healing people… like, wow, what a lot of effort to go to just to set people up and deceive them! Instead, the Bible reveals that God’s interest in humanity was so strong that He did everything necessary to save us.

      In reality, those two factors prove without any doubt that the God of the Bible is indeed the true and living God, and that His heart’s desire for us if for our good – in this life and eternally. If the God of the Bible says that all other gods are nothing, is it because he’s an egotist, or because he’s trying to protect you? I see His love and wisdom in this warning.

      One of the best things that the Bible reveals is that God has actually created each one of us for a specific purpose, and our highest happiness can only be found in choosing His plan for our life. That means that if we are following the leading of other spiritual entities (which God has warned us are deceptive) then we are being cheated out of that which would bring the most fulfilment. So then, the question you need to ask yourself is not ‘What will I miss out on by giving up my other gods’, but rather “What am I missing out on by not serving the only true God?”

      Or look at it from God’s perspective: If He has something wonderful for your life and you reject it, why should He be happy with that, especially if you are choosing something which is convenient in this life but not for your eternal good?

      You mention human conscience, which is good to listen to. But that is not fool proof as it is influenced by our upbringing and what we are taught. If Christians have any advantage, it is that we are better informed and so hopefully we’ll make better choices. But as you noted, we all make mistakes. In that case, the difference is that although we all have to face consequences of our mistakes, God has honoured our choice to serve Him by forgiving us for our mistakes. That’s where Jesus comes into the whole picture. He laid everything on the line to save us all, but He leaves the decision with us individually whether we will accept Him into our lives. What will you choose?

      I should give you a warning though: If you decide to follow the God of the Bible and ask Jesus to come into your heart, you will have a battle on your hands. You will soon discover that those spiritual entities which have served you so well in the past will change and start harassing you – they might try to cause accidents, give you nightmares, inflict you with illness, etc (there’s something about Jesus that makes them show their true colours! Funny that they never react like that to other deities…) Since you have openly invited these other ‘gods’ into your life, you will need help to be free from them when they turn on you. Jesus died so that you could have that advantage. You will need to ask the Lord to lead you to Christians who can teach you how to expel them from your life. Some of the people who contribute to this site may be able to help.

      I leave my contribution here for you to think about and wish you God’s blessings as you consider these things.

    • Reply to Whimsy:I agree with you on your point that you say about the bible.I believe that bible is just a book and even though i believe in Jesus,i dont think that the bible is right about everything.It could have been written by anyone,and as we all know it had been writen by man’s hands,so im not sure about how ‘holy’,'wise’,or ‘true’ it really is.Surely the bible has many things i agree with,but i also agree with you on your point that non Christian people arent stupid.Noone is stupid.If you believe in some spirits and find happiness by it,then you’re as smart as a christian person who finds happiness in the christian belief.As long as we dont harm each other by our beliefs or our practises (i mean sacrifices,killings and all),then we’re all good,wise and moral.I have a weak spot for morals and respect.I think everyone MUST have at least some basic morals.Anyway i just wanted to tell you that i find your opinion very true and nice ;)

      • Holyroller_11 says:

        either it is or it isn’t,why bother,without faith it is impossible to believe God,sorry but your in trouble,and there is no need to pat you on the head and lie and say God understand’s cause he don’t

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          I saw a man try to burn a bible in a preachers hand,3 or 4 days later he was found in his easy chair,dead,massive heart attack,so if you don’t believe the bible,thats your choice,but I wouldn’t attack it or God’s people with other junk if I were you,hell is hot,94000 degrees as a matter of fact,repent and live sin and die,have a nice day

          • I didnt attack the bible,i just said my opinion,if you had red my comment carefully you’d see that i dont blame the bible or the bible believers,and again stop trying to intimidate people by talking about fires.Jesus himself had taught people not to believe in fear,but in deep faith for God.If you believe in God out of fear that you will be burnt,then you believe only out of weekness.And by the way,no you cant pat my head and tell me whether God understand or not,because clearly you’re not God,and you’re not the one to tell me whether im troubled or not,or whether he understand me or not.Thats only for him to know and for you to wonder ;)Dont be so fanatic.Trying to intimidate people wont make you a good Christian believer,nor will it save you from the ‘fires’.;)

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            in your fist comment,you said why would God allow satan to cause sin,then later you said you did,which is it,also I am not here for anyone except to point the way,if you don’t want that,why are you here,2ndyou say Jesus didn’t talk about hell and punisment,what about the rich man or Judas,or where the worm dieth not(your soul) you need to read the book,and get up mighty early to tell me what is and isnot in it, the truth is,what it is,regardless what I say or you say,people are evil because they are out for themselves and don’t want to burn by there self always wanting to take someone with them,no one forces the bible on them,they get angry because inside they know its true and they are afraid,other wise they would not attack those who are christians,christians bother no one.yet your hear not as a christian,but trying to tell everyone else they are wrong, heres your sign

          • Maybe you’re right,and maybe im wrong.Maybe i really fear that i have sinned,but who doesnt?Dont you fear your sins?But my point in all my comments is that whether its true or not,trying to cause fear into others,will not help them believe in the true God,and be set free from their sins.History has taught that people who believed in God,out of fear,have made the worst mistakes.And im not trying to prove you wrong,im just saying that i dont agree.Simple as that.And the reason why im here,is to ask questions about things i dont understand.And if im not mistaken,noone ever commited a sin by not understanding something.Even if that something had to do with the bible.You cant learn and understand the bible completely,without first having doubts about it.

  16. Substance of Faith

    In your first stream of postings before self-imposed exile- you went to great lengths to explain why you continued to linger on the site after having previously declared that you were exiting never to return. Visit or leave but spare us self-justification.

    It appears that practicing paganism has not fulfilled your spiritual thirst, else what are you doing here? In your first postings you took pains to explicate your familiarity with the Greek and Hebrew languages. From what I read you have picked up a smattering of Latin- finished off with an experience with a Jewish Rabbi. This aside, I ask one question: “what new or fresh insight are you putting on the table?”

    Your vivid insights gleaned from your scholarship are: <> Jesus is fiction <> the Bible’s revelation of God is concocted, for God is no more than a tribal deity <> Jesus as portrayed in the bible is a violent, cruel and vindictive man etc.? Adam, your thoughts on the character of the bible and Jesus constitutes a very small pebble on a great information pile- of no value to anyone let alone visitors to this site.

    The bible and faith

    We who have found life in Christ have- been convicted in our spirit that Scripture is the Word of God and through Scripture we have come to know that Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Son of God. Not only have we been convicted by the work of the Holy Spirit, the character of the narrative speaks to us. We haven’t been changed by textual claims or information but by the Spirit of God. For the convicted believer these matters are as tangible as any physical event that you hold as fact. If your wisdom exceeds your demonstrated verbosity, you will know that not every fact is directly testable; there are physical facts and there are spiritual facts- the former objective and the latter experiential.

    Anyone can sit down with a pile of evidence, and selectively approve or dismiss based on their frame of reference- but we are presented a different path- a spiritual tool- faith. Faith is not a mental conviction of the truth of a matter but rather a confirmation within our spirit, a conviction. This is is not a work of our neuro-physiology but of the Holy Spirit. And like all discernment, insight and revelation- the means to realizing this is ‘attitude’ The appropriate attitude is: ‘humility’ and fear of God. Given that you display neither, you have missed the revelation of God which comes through faith. While a person may come to some understanding about the matters of Scripture and the person of Jesus through a mental reasoning process, such understandings cannot and do not impact on the spirit.

    If you don’t believe in the holy Spirit, or the working of faith in the sense I have described- then keep it to yourself- the fact that you need to make a noise about it demonstrates your sense of self importance.

    Your scholarship

    Jesus described a situation where Pharisaic Jews crossed oceans to win a convert before debasing what they had won. Now you, seem to have journeyed far too. In your pursuit of truth, having placed yourself under rabbinical guidance, why did you not establish whether Jesus is a fictional character. No one can fault the rabbinical Judaism’s propensity towards record keeping in Talmud-Gemara and Mishnah- If any party has a vested interest in the “fictional character of Jesus” it has to be rabbinical Judaism?

    Commonality?

    As for shared beliefs or points of agreement, those who are led by the Spirit have zero point of commonality with you- for everything is seen in the light of Christ- whether this is the natural world, relationships with other men and women- everything. Our sole conversation with you is to point you to the Savior of all men- Jesus Christ. In Jesus we could have conversation- outside Jesus none!

    Christian responsibility for carnage, hate and war?
    You make the point that Christians are responsible for wars, destruction, hate mongering ….. I would suggest to you that you are not as familiar with the Bible as you claim. For the Bible explicitly states that “by their fruit you will know them”. John in his letters especially his first letter underlines this point- those who are of Christ demonstrate this by love. This appears to be one of the many gaps in your rush over Scripture. If you had heeded this, you would have understood what Jesus meant when he proclaimed, “not all who call me Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven”.

    Tough Love Sometimes the required love is tough love- just as that demonstrated by Jesus in the temple- that act which you see as “despicable” The point is, by many of your postings you have shown yourself to be an obnoxious, conceited person- character traits most of us share in, outside the cover of the Redeemer’s Blood.

    Bottom Line: all men and women are born self centered and live filthy lives in the eyes of God- this by the very Scriptures that you don’t believe in. Let not Jesus’ words remain applicable to you, “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.”

    So, Change your mind about Christ and accept his sacrifice that he made on your behalf that you might be cleaned of your conceit and sin and replaced by life. If you embrace life return and share the good news; otherwise share your insights with your fellow pagans, for there you will have a wide audience.

    Peer

    • I’ll make only a quick comment in regard to all that you said. That is this: My Latin and Hebrew are excellent and well proven. The fact that you are unable to tell the differences between Classical Latin and liturgical Latin shows your own defects not mine.
      Adam

  17. Isn’t TB Joshua one of the “gospel of health and wealth” people who are currently taking advantage of the poor?

    • michael says:

      From what I know, TB Joshua is personally giving much to the poor, and teaching others to give to widows and orphans as a priority. They spend a fortune on helping widows and orphans every month. For a long time, TB Joshua did not even have his own bank account, and would actually give money to those who received healing through his ministry. He refuses to let his own church members celebrate him by putting his face on T-Shirts – my wife heard him rebuke this stuff in the strongest terms.

      Probably the real reason he has been attacked by other Nigerian ministries is because he so exposes them as GREEDY self-centred self-glorifying ministers who are laying up personal treasure on earth – not so much by his words but by his example.

      • Makweembo says:

        I have personally been to The Synagogue Church Of All Nations in Lagos Nigeria and have observed TB Joshua’s ministry ‘behind the pulpit’.

        What I can testify to is a man humbly and completely submitted to the will of God in every area of his life. I received scriptural and life changing teaching, saw people healed of every kind of ailment, demons delivered in Jesus’ Name, precise and accurate prophetic messages both to individuals and concerning major international events. I witnessed broken families reunited and catered for in the church premises, alongside an incredible compassionate ministry where widows, orphans, physically challenged and the lowly in society where all given substantial gifts, as well as bags of rice, and scholarships for the children unable to go to school. In every conceivable aspect, people’s focus is directed to Jesus Christ, and not to Joshua.

        Those who are making negative remarks concerning the ministry – I implore you to go and see for yourself before jumping to baseless conclusions.

        Watch his television station Emmanuel TV to see for yourself.

  18. MelodyCat says:

    As a Christian or person who has repented and received Christ’s death on the cross for the forgiveness of my sins I am NOW a Child of God or a Child of the Light. I have nothing in common with the Darkness or Dark forces of this world or any other reality/dimension. I only have fellowship with others who are also of the Light. I don’t offer friendship or any kind of compromise to those who choose to serve other gods. The fact is everyone who is not reconciled to God through Jesus will have to face his judgement and wrath. I offer no apologies for what the Bible teaches, I didn’t write it and it isn’t mine to change as I wish. I accept the Word of God as true and unchangable. I can only repnet for myself and offer this truth to others. If others don’t want to accept it that is their choice.

    1TH 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

    2CO 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”

    2CO 6:17 “Therefore come out from them
    and be separate,
    says the Lord.
    Touch no unclean thing,
    and I will receive you.”

    2CO 6:18 “I will be a Father to you,
    and you will be my sons and daughters,
    says the Lord Almighty.”

    2CO 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

    EPH 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) 10 and find out what pleases the Lord. 11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. 13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14 for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:

    “Wake up, O sleeper,
    rise from the dead,
    and Christ will shine on you.”

    1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

    1JN 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

    • JustAGuy says:

      Thanks MelodyCat for taking the time to make that clear. I did not have rest in my spirit following my initial post to Adam on being friends. There is a line drawn in the heavenlies that must not be crossed, and I unwittingly crossed it, but now I repent and align with God’s Word to walk as a son of light.

      Blessings and Peace,
      Timothy

      • lookinforacity says:

        Tim:

        Don’t take any of your posts to Adam off, as PEER says you should, they are part of a dialog that has already taken place, if you take them off, then Adam just goes on, and on without your input. I posted on the 1st. of May that we should not give him a voice, I still feel that we shouldn’t but to censor you for doing what you thought was right at the time would NOW be wrong. As I stated on May 1, think of the young Christians that could be misled. Instead of deleting things, write a open letter to the future. Put down your original reasons for doing what you did, then what you feel today, that would be a better repentance than deleting. Use this opportunity to teach the young of the future, from your experience, that’s how we all learn.
        Love for a brother
        JIM

        • horns4plenty says:

          First off I wanted to let Jim know I have really enjoyed reading your post and can tell that you have earnestly sought after the council of the Lord.

          May you always pursue the Lord with all your heart. May you always be a lampstand that points others to examine themselves to see that they are in the faith. May darkness always flee from the light that you walk in and may darkness never be able to over take you.

          God Bless
          Corey

      • MelodyCat says:

        I agree with Jim (Lookigforacity)that you should leave your replies to Adam. I think your replies are important. We grow in Christ. This is good for other Christians to see how we grow. I have shown you verses some one else shared with me. Now you have learned what the Bible says on this. If you remove your dialogue with Adam it would not tell the full story.

        Cheers
        Mel

    • JustAGuy says:
      Lessons from Adam

      1 Don’t get pulled in with the “I just want to be friends” line. Scripture says for a man to have friends, he must show himself friendly. It is not my responsibility to make a friendship happen somehow. Friendship is a matter of the heart that unites two people. We are not to be united with those who hate God – like, how foolish is that?! If a pagan wishes to befriend a Christian, that is a dream with more of a hook than a reality for them. If they have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in their lives, and they have not accepted your relationship with Him, then the relationship they propose to desire with you is there to lead you away from your Savior. I learned that lesson over 30 years ago with my Dad. He believed in spaceships and other inhabited planets being mentioned in the Bible. As a teenager, I did not agree with his conclusions. I was aware that because that was his heartfelt belief, (and there was an element of “Christ is coming this year and you had better be ready”,) and that he loved me; the natural conclusion would be that he had a strong desire to draw me into agreement with his deception for my own sake.

      When someone professes love for you, it may be sincere. If it is, they will want you to believe all the “wonderful” things they believe – all for your own good. When a Pagan says, “I just want to be friends,” they are believing a lie. You can be sure your friendship is not there on their part to bring them to Christ, whom they despise, but to bring you to Satan’s kingdom. Good is greater than evil, all the time, but we are specifically enjoined to have no part in it, or fellowship with it.

      2 Friends respect friends. For a pagan to say “I want to be friends and get along with you people who are so stupid that you trust God,” is the height of rudeness. When your beliefs have been belittled and berated, you know that friendship is not the real objective. You cannot dishonor my family and say you honor me. If you do, you have stated that the price of my friendship with you incudes that I distance my heart from my family to some degree. When that family happens to be the Body of Christ, I am too busy pressing in, to be distracted with debate and doubts. Those were answered years ago for me. It is not my responsibility to give those answers to a skeptic. As my threads with Adam will show, he was not interested in receiving any answers, he just wanted answers that he could douse with his own hatred for Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

      3 Friendship is an allegiance. We can be polite and civil with Pagans without forming a bond in the name of ‘friendship.” Friendship is a heart level relationship that opens one’s spirit up to another’s in a ‘soul-tie’. This is where the devil gains an opening to deceive. I stated friendship as a way of displaying that I was not Adam’s personal enemy. That is where I crossed the line, because it aligned me with his kingdom – YUCK! Forgive me Lord Jesus!

      I like to get along with people. I think my posts with Adam show that. But, if someone desires to get along with you, let them be the ones who forsake their gods to do so. Lead them to Christ, and then you may have common ground for a mutual friendship.

      4 Friendships are not manipulated from us. When you hear the line, “why can’t we just get along?,” it comes with a pull for you to pony up something to “get along” on their terms. If someone wants to “get along” with me, all they generally have to do is be agreeable. Don’t come to me and say “I want to get along, and here is why your belief system is stupid…” If they want to get along, then praise the virtues of my belief system. If they want to subvert my belief system, then cut the “I just want to get along” baloney. When you see flattery mixed with berating of your belief system, there is death in the mix. Steer clear. I did not and I hope the Lord will use this to show others the folly of it, as he did me.

      Conclusion: Adam and other pagans need a clear witness of who we are and what we believe and we leave it at that. It is not up to me to “prove” God to anyone. God leaves it up to each of us to “taste and see that the Lord is good” for ourselves. I cannot do that for another person, nor can you. We testify to what we have seen and heard. If the person turns on us and rails against those truths – casting more truth out there will not make it better. Save the pearls, and save yourself the heartache. “Do not cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot and turn and tear at you.” This is what Adam was doing when he made statements like, “oh, I didn’t know you were referencing the Bible as your authentic source…”. It was all said in a matter of fact conversational tone, but there were spears and arrows in those words and I should have been outta there! Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is to be a friend from a distance. I love Adam, but it is not up to me to prove it to him in his flawed terms. God loves Adam too, and will forgive him when he repents for berating God and exalting gods that cannot save. Jesus is THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Light. NO man comes to the Father, except through Him. That is a horrendously narrow statement – but it happens to be TRUE, We can choose to be offended as spoiled brats, or we can “GET OVER IT” and get on with finding the peace, and fulfillment that comes once we do.

      If you have found Jesus Christ as your personal savior, HOLD FAST to Him and don’t have fellowship with anyone who would take that away from you! When you throw a lifeline, you don’t jump in the water after it, you have to man your station and stand firm for the other person’s sake as well as your own.

      Blessings and Peace,
      Timothy

      • horns4plenty says:

        Amen! I pray that the Lord will continue the work He has started in you and will lead you into all truth. I pray that you will become a mighty warrior for the pulling down of strongholds, and when you say to this mountain or that mountain be picked and cast into the sea; that it will obey you.

        I pray that God will teach you to be a peace maker and that you will never again be deceived into being a peace keeper.

        Walk in the peace of God and not the peace of man.
        Corey

      • Timothy-

        Sorry for the late return- bless you!

        It is not up to me to judge or even correct another believer unless they are bringing disrepute to the Gospel. There was nothing in your conversation with Adam, that brought disrepute to the Gospel.

        My concern was for you- not Adam. Your letter is more than sufficient. We could talk further but not publicly on this.

        My discovery is that as I have lost shape and Christ’s shape has been formed within me, that I have become aware of the difference between cordiality, affection versus love. The Gospel presents many encounters Jesus had with persons and in each encounter Jesus’ words and actions were orientated to doing what was best for that person. The Hebrew word transliterated ahava has as its root “to give”- also love.

        So, love is a giving and in Christ, it is a giving that produces a dying to self and a living in Christ. Whenever we witness to others inside or outside the Body of Christ it is to encourage a movement to dying for the sake of living. this is the example that was set for me by those who discipled me for ministry. Seeing this and their ministering with power, rather than words, I coveted this and every day this coveting grows.

        Whom am I to instruct you in this? no one.

        ———————

        May you be filled with the dying of Christ and thereby his resurrection power, so that your conversation as with all things is laced with grace, seasoned with salt.

        Peer.

  19. Osiel Araim says:

    Hello everyone, I am Osiel Araim, and I feel I have an obligation to defend both religious parties involved in this argument. I have been a self-proclaimed member of just about every religion known to most of mankind- even obscure ones, such as Zoroastrianism, Sikhism, Jainism, and Luciferianism. Each of the religions I have ‘joined’ were all researched by myself, and I had reasons to join them. But they were all religions. Dare I say, even Wicca, Witchcraft, AND Paganism were religions- and yes, they are all different.

    Now, we have to define religion. Religion, as a word, has been used (even by Christians) as a derogatory term. Religion, in my mind and the mind of many, talks about a dead and inflexible way of worship. And, yes- Christianity is very flexible, even for the most faithful of its follwers. It just depends on in what the flexibility is based.

    When I was a Christian, I went to a demonstration on Passover. It’s main focus was on how Passover is a dead phenomenon, as it is no longer practiced in its original method or intent. Passover /needs/ the lamb to be Passover- the lamb is central to it. Passover requires many other things to be ‘authentic’, such as being in the Holy Land.

    Now, I must say that both my Pagan AND my Christian experiences were experiences in religion. Casting a circle. That is a /very/ religious phenomenon- and I do not believe, myself, that it is spiritual. If the spirits you were evoking were not malevolent, why cast a protective circle?

    However, within Christianity, there are also ‘religion-based’ experiences. Even within Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches- the most Bible-based Christian format I have ever been exposed to. One of these ‘religion-based’ experiences is, actually, Christmas- at least as experienced in America and some of Europe. The earliest English records of Christmas Day being the 25th of December come from the year 1043. It is a holiday of vast excess through feasts and gifts- both possibly contrary to the original spirit of ‘Christmas’ and the original spirit of Christianity. Finally- Christmas is no longer celebrated on ‘true’ December 25th! There was a Calendar Act passed in 1751 in England which made the day after September 2nd into Septemter 14th! Before this, Christmas was celebrated on what is now January 6th! This is the very definition of a ‘religion-based’ holiday!

    So, I believe we have established that both religions have their faults, and that neither (as Paganism was practically reinvented in the Renaissance) is true to its original spirit in at least some ways. What I must establish, now, is that neither religion gives me a full peace of heart; none makes me happy. I have been Pagan for a few years, now, and all my friends are Pagan. Even my fiancee is Pagan. And- four of my family members died, all in 2007… None of them were Christian. I had tried Christianity, earnestly, for a few months… And- things were getting better. But- my fiancee is Pagan, and I have a few problems with Christianity… My main problems are that interpretation is not allowed, but interpretation is the only way for the human mind to understand letters and words and books, or anything for that matter, and that the main thing in your heart has to be God- only God. What about your wife? Your children?

    I guess I would love to be Christian… But I am choosing the easier path, because I can’t break my fiancee’s heart. It’s just- so hard, and I don’t know what to do. I… I’m broken; I’m depressed; I’m conflicted. And I’ve always been that way. Ever since I started school, I was angry and violent, as well as depressed. When I was a bit older, I got clinically depressed. I am on meds, daily. I’ve had physical fights with many of my relatives- and many times. I am, truly, f-cked up (sorry for cursing, but I am getting very emotional). I… Wish I had some answers. But- I know I don’t. I never have. I.. I need help.

    • MelodyCat says:

      Osiel

      I don’t want to debate religions with you. I just want to say I was touched by your conflict of wanting to believe in Christianity and your reasons for not being ablt to do so.

      I just want to pray for you at this point. I will go way and think about what you posted and if I have something else I could add here I will come back and do so.

      Dear Heavenly Father,

      Praying for Osiel and his family and fiance. Praying for your revelation of your truth to them so that they will have beyond doubt what they need to be able to receive salvation through your precious Son’s Blood shed for them. Praying that you would bring more insight and understanding to Osiel of your Truth of your Word which is given to us in the Bible. Thank you Lord that you say in your Word that “those who seek you will find you when they seek you with all their heart”. Amen

      I’m just going to give you some scripture for you to think through. I hope it may help you in some way.

      MT 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

      MT 7:9 “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

      MT 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

      If you ask God for the ability to clearly know his truth and be able to believe it he will give you what you ask for.

      Cheers
      Mel

    • eyesabove says:

      Osiel,

      I feel your pain and I know that it is very real. Being torn and feeling unhappy no matter what you do is not fun ever. I spent most of my “youth” taking the easier paths that I knew went against my knowledge of Christ. I made a lot of mistakes and broke my own heart many times. I got to a point that I felt like you. I did not really know what to do only that every answer was wrong for me. But GOD by what I know was divine intervention saved me from a life of torture and heartache. I think that all True Christians would have to agree that Christianity has gotten very mucked up over the years. It has a lot of selfishness and confusion wrapped up into it now. But that is not GOD. That is us and our selfish and worldly desires coming out. It is our refusal to do it all the way GOD’s way. I got pregnant at a young age and was hurt many times. And it was and is hard. I would love to tell you that one day it all magically goes away. But that never happens. You will always remember. However, you can cope and live without the pain of life in your face. I am married now to an awesome man and I have three kids. My life is not some picture pefect little ideal with no promblems or temptations or flaws. And it never will be that. But every day that I chose to take it-GOD gives me his strength to carry on and stand strong. Your comments about interprettation are not entirely right. That is the whole point of the bible is for GOD to speak through it. Yes His laws and commands are set in stone but it is to protect us from ourselves. You and I both know the consequences of our own stupidity and selfishness. I believe that GOD deals with the individual. He knows our hearts. And as for not being able to love and have others in your heart, that is not true. Yes GOD has to come first but My husband is second and my kids third. I don’t hurt or neglect them by putting GOD first. Instead I ensure that I am doing what is best for them. I know that certain things are hard to accept when you are in the midst of a life of pain and unhappiness. I know that it somewtimes seems that it just doesn’t matter cuz it’s too hard. But if you truly with all your heart, soul, and mind seek after The Living GOD he will not leave you there searching alone. But you can’t just read a book or two and go to church and look on net sites. You have to be sincere in your search for Him. Unlike other “gods” He does not play games. He wants us all to be His children no matter what but He does not take kindly to jokes and unpure motives. I don’t mean to be harsh but I think that you must see the truth for your sake. You NEED Him now not yesterday or tommorrow. I suggest that you really and truly open the bible and read it. I believe that if you allow Him He will speak to you and give you all the direction you need. Now what I am going to say you are not going to like I am sure but I say it in love and sincerity not to be mean or hurtfull. Please believe that! Your fiance no doubt is great and she loves you. I can tell that. But you must consider that that accepting spirit does come from her faith. Christains should by Christ’s command be way more accepting than we are. I am sorry if you have been hurt by people who proclaim with their mouth but don’t show love with their actions. We are also commanded in addition to loving others not to put ourselves deeply into tempting and unclean situations. I believe that you can follow both commands. You can love everyone but you do not have to love their lifestyle or go out and party it up with them. I won’t lie my husband and I have had to give up some people in our lives because we could not follow both commands. I know that that sounds sad and heartless even but I gaurantee that other religions do the same things. You have to be around those that encourage you and lift you up or else you will drown with others.  I think that if your fiance is asking to be everything to you she is asking too much of you and is blocking paths for you. No offense to her because I find myself demanding too much from my husband sometimes. Although husband and wife are commanded to be one it is no surprise that we are still two bodies and minds and hearts. It takes much work and sacrifice to become one united in thought and feeling.I just feel that without sacrifice there can be no true gain or happiness. I know that seems stupid but it’s what I believe. I also feel that unrealistic expectations are the worst thing in a relationship and only set both parties up to fail. Love is not a feeling and it is not for a season. Love is a true commitment to one another no matter what. And I assure you that true love is worth the sacrifices and hardships. There is no greater feeling than knowing someone will always be there for you. No greater comfort to a disheartened soul. I am talking about romantic love but also the love between a Father and child. If you are a parent you understand this if not you will one day. There is no greater example of GOD’s love than the love between parent and child. I can not explain it. And yes We have messed that example up as well. But GOD is waiting, just waiting for us to come home, each one. He loves you and His son died so that you CAN overcome ALL the things in your life. I know that you are a good person. I can feel it. But that is simply not enough to comfort you and it never will be. I think that you should reevaluate you life and really see that GOD can take you from conflict to comfort. There is a reason that surrounded by unbelievers and heartache you have still found no true comfort and peace(no offense to friends and family). I promise you though that despite what anyone tells you—-It does exist and it is real and you my friend can find it. Just don’t base your faith and what you believe on others because regardless of religion you can never religiously live vicariously through others. God desires a relationship not a religion. Remember that. Oh yeah and by the way I love you and Yes I will be praying for you and your family and your friends and your life. I know its not too far gone and I know that you are not “lost” with no return. You can be saved and there is hope my friend. Believe that

    • Please. You said that you would like to be a christian but you have decided to choose either life because you do not want to break your fiancee’s heart. Have you ever imagined that even the fiancee that you are putting your hear to believe in is also eligible to death. Do you know that she is living on the grace of GOD the Father and she has also depended on the mercy that GOD is releasing on mankind through JESUS\?
      Listen it is not bad to respect and recognize your wife’s or fiancees presence but this is what you have to understand that GOD should be the first priority in your life. In your life then you wife second. Note: when I say that GOD has to be first person in your life I do not leave out HIS word. HIM and the WORD are a company that empowers HIS people. When you quit HIS word it means you have quit HIM too.
      So please treasure GOD like nothing else in your life.

      • FOR EVERYONE
        I dont think that a person who doesnt pray,go to the church and doesnt read the bible daily,is a sinner or someone who has quit God.Im a Cristian who believes in a one and true God,and i have learnt from my childhood and the books,to love,appreciate,admire and believe in a pure God and Jesus Christ as the wisest teacher of the mankind.But im not the type of person (no offence),who goes to the church,reads the bible all the time and lives according to the bible’s paragraphs and suggestions.I admire and respect most of the religions and beliefs in the world (except the ones who make sacrifices etc..),and i have also learnt to admire the wiccans as well.When i was 14 years old i was introduced in some beliefs called ‘wiccan’,and white sorcery by some classmates of mine.I have been studying the wiccan-pagan beliefs for three years and i think they were enough in order to understand some basic stuff about them.But i have also studied a lot about Jesus,whom personally i admire and love deeply.I’ve always been portraying him as a the greatest teacher of all times,i’ve always liked to learn about his teachings,his life and his virtues-values.And one basic thing i have learnt from his teaching is that Jesus never said anything about ‘punishment’,or ‘wrath’ of the God against those who didnt believe in him.He never said anything about God’s revenge in his children,because some of them chose the wrong way.And if its true that some evil forces have chose to decieve people,then its most definitely not our fault that we have been decieved,is it?I mean if Satan has such power upon us,as to decieve us and make us turn into sinners,or commit crimes and sins without our knowledge,then why would God be so angry with us since its not our fault that we have sinned?(sorry for my english).My point is that saying that God will take revenge on people who arent Christians is utterly wrong to me.Saying that people who dont live according to the ‘holy books’,will be burnt in hell eternally,is rediculous.I have never had much of appreciation for books,instructions and all this stuff.I believe in finding the truth in your heart.I believe into having faith through your own will,and not through fear.I dont agree with some Christian people who try to ‘intimidate’,non Christians into believing that they will be burnt,blah blah blah… I chose to believe in Jesus because he’s the only one i feel closest to God.I believe in the things he taught.I believe in respect,justice,morality,equality and forgiving.And if Jesus has taught poeple the virtue of forgiving,then im pretty sure that God himself,will have all the intention to forgive even the worst criminal for his sins,and not burn him in hell for not chosing to be a God believer.
        Im definitely against rituals that demand either animal sacrifices or human sacrifices,but besides that,im not against any particular belief or religious practise.Im not ashamed to admit that i ‘loathe’,people who harm other people either by killing them,raping them,or sacrificing them to their ‘gods’,but that doesnt mean im against paganism,or wiccans,because as i’ve learnt most of them are against sacrifices too.
        So my point is that everyone should respect each other’s beliefs and not try to force them into believing anything,by fear.Im a Christian person,who believes in the pure and true God,and Jesus himself,but i dont own a bible,i dont go to the church (i avoid it),and i dont live my life based in specific ‘religious rules’.Does that mean i dont believe in God??

        • warrior daughter says:

          I have read your comments & several points you have made cause me to take great notice.

          1. You see Jesus as the wisest & greatest teacher but you leave Him there with just this title. Jesus Christ is much more than a great teacher but He is the very Savior of the World!
          ….. And we have seen & testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the World. {I John 4:14}
          …..And it shall come to pass, whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. {Acts 2:21}
          There are many titles that Jesus Christ wears & not just Teacher & Savior. I suggest that you do a indepth study of His titles & you will see that He is much more than a teacher. Is there any other god that can save a person from sin & change their life totally? Can any god hold up to the many titles of Jesus Christ?

          2. “Admire wiccans” How can you admire something that is the enemy of Jesus Christ who you say you “admire & love deeply” {Jesus}.

          3. “Never had much appreciation for books instruction & all that stuff” but earlier in your in your post you stated you studied wiccan beliefs for 3 years & have studied a lot about Jesus. Later you say “don’t own a Bible” so since you have studied Jesus it does not come from the Word of God but from other sources. Go get yourself a Bible or download the Bible on line {its free} & start reading it for the truth shall make you free { John 8:22} & you will no longer be of double-mindneness & unstable in all ways . {James1:8}

          4. You believe that you have found “truth in your heart” The heart is deceitful above all things & depesperatly wicked. Who can know it ? {Jeremiah 17:9} Only God knows the true intentions of the heart.

          5. “God Himself will have all the intention to forgive the worst criminal” You said it— He does have all intention to forgive but He cannot forgive unless the person asks for forgiveness. The decision is up to the person & then forgivenss follows immediately not minutes, hours or years later but immediate forgiveness.

          6. “Force belief on another by fear” Fear is a tactic of Satan & not of God. When we are told to fear God it does not mean to fear but to revere, to honor, love, esteem, respect. Who do you love honor respectt?

          You stopped in with many questions & doubts & either you are here because you hunger after righteousness or you were sent here by the enemy whom you say you detest.

          You may be young but even children are eagerly welcomed into God’s kingdom…

          • My studies about wiccan beliefs were mainly by some books,and some people.But im still in search for the God,and the bible.Surely im mistaken in many of my views,as i said another of my comments,and no i wasnt sent here by the enemy of Jesus.If im here,its because i know i have been mistaken and decieved,and im trying to clear some things out.

        • lookinforacity says:

          Hi Mellow

          Instead of focusing upon all of the things, that you feel God has fallen short in, because He doesn’t come up to your standards. Go to this link http://www.e-sword.net it’s a free bible, and all kinds of helps. You need something you can read, and get answers to your questions from. If you don’t understand it, or need help (private message me)
          This is the typical viewpoint of someone that is being drawn by His Spirit into all truth.
          You need to ask questions to get answers, but in your questions, you are asking us to defend God and what you think He is doing wrong, God it the Creator of everything that is, PERIOD. He doesn’t need us to defend Him. I think that is what has caused the reaction you have received. Believe me, a lot of people say “IF YOUR REAL” prove to me that you are. God will not strike you dead if you say that, but questioning His motives, when you don’t have the answer to that question. Don’t try to solve the words problems, until you have found out why you personally were born. All of the questions you should be asking should be how you can come into a relationship with the Creator of the Universe. Wouldn’t that be cool? Once you have that relationship then you can question His way of doing things.
          Ask the question however you need to, but ask. You need to know that HE HEARS YOU.
          Jesus said, Seek and you shall find, Knock and it shall be opened unto you, Ask and you shall receive.
          These are the things God wants you to do, and each and every one of them has a promise connected to it.
          God knows the condition of your heart, he knows how serious you are, and the answers you want answered in order for you to truly believe, those answers are the most important thing in your life.
          Don’t be so judgmental of Him, once you come into His Kingdom, all of those questions will be automatically answered for yo, to your satisfaction.
          The most important thing to you and the rest of your life is that you settle the question of “Is God Real” once you can say yes to that, every question you may ever have can be answered, not until.

          Heb 11:6
          Without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

          In your Seeking, Knocking, Asking your faith is being built.
          You will not find what your soul is searching for, through any other Religion, they do not have the Truth, they have a counterfeit of the truth, it’s not real no matter how beautiful it may appear.
          Remember, Satan will give you 15oz. of truth, in order to feed you 1oz. of a lie, and that 1oz will kill you and take you straight to hell, because you settled for a lie instead of the Truth.
          God is Truth, Jesus is the Word, and you can only get to the Truth through Jesus Christ.
          Wherever you look if Jesus is not in it then it is false. There are some that say Jesus, Jesus but they do not believe that He is the Only Begotten Son of God.

          I PRAY, that God will open your ears, that you may hear the truth, and understand, and your eyes, that you may see the truth, and perceive (understand).

          Be Blessed in your search
          JIM

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          light and dark cannot be together,either you will love the one or hate the other,staddle the fence and you will burn

          • I have chosen to believe in the light,to answer your question.My comment (again) was about respecting,and not trying to force our beliefs in others with the motivation of fear.But where is your testimony hollyroller?You know one of the biggest mistakes of a person,is thinking that he/she is perfect and completely out of sin.Just saying that before you try to ‘take someone out’ of his sins,you should first try to judge yourself and have a bit of selfknowledge.Jesus had said :’Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank of your own eye?’.I think all Christian believers should follow this if they really believe that anyone else who doesnt live like them,is a sinner :)

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            my testimonies are all over this site pick one

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            don’t you think it strange,someone would join a christian web site,claim they play with witchcraft,don;t know what the bible says,then argue that christians are pushing their religion on them,say God should not let satan make people sin,and then don’t want church or read the bible,and think to get someone to agree,boy ,are you so lost,when you find the truth you fight with it,you cannot change the truth,so I suggest either get in or get out,or torment yourself in the middle of conflick.I know who Jesus is,pity you don’t

          • Hold on a second.I never said i play with witchcraft.Please read my comments carefully before you comment on them.I said that i had been introduced into some sort of wiccan beliefs when i was 14 years old.That was a short period of my life,i have nothing to do with it anymore first and second,most religions in this world today are false,as i’ve also red from many christian websites.Most churches are commiting idolatry even if they dont mean to.And when someone doesnt go to the church doesnt mean he doesnt believe in God.God is spiritual,not superficial.The true church is one,and its not here yet.And no i dont play with witchcraft.And as i said in another comment,i never denied the fact that i may be wrong.We all have to learn a lot,even you.Only the end will show how much you really know about God,and how much you’ve sinned or not.And for your information i never claimed that i know everything about Jesus and God.Noone knows everything!

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            here we go again,The true church is here,don’t need one in heaven,If the christians around the world was to totally leave,this world is pleasent in comparaion. I am not trying to fight with you,but a change from God is not only possible,it must be,to be a child of God,not an idea,but a REAL touch from God hImself.and unless you seek it and find it,you cannot see and understand anything we say,can a person live sinless,YES,only through the power of God,here now,as far as a fear tactic, no need,thats in the world already. I’m not afraid ,I wish he would split the sky right now!! glad to see him.because I have felt his power seen his miracles and have been changed,I hope one day you have the same or more,the beginning of wisdom is the FEAR of the Lord,(bible)which is better a world full of sinners or a world full of concerned saints. this stuff is real otherwise I would not care 1 way or another.

          • Im sorry if you felt insaulted by my comments,i really didnt intend to insault your faith or you in person.But i’ve been taught many things in my life so far,and im only 19 years old.I admit that i have done many things im not proud of,and i too wish that someday i will be a proper believer.I have recently started searching for the true faith,but im dissapointed in everything i see around me so i cant help but feel angry or intolerent in many things,such as children sacrifices,etc..I find myself ‘hating’,people who do such stuff,many times and even though i dont really mean the word,as i say it,i do realise that its not good to even think of it.I dont want to be in the ‘dark’ side,thats mainly why im in search right now.Im trying to understand the holy teachings from every side,and thats why i may be mistaken in many of my views.Hollyroller,i wish he’d come and save the world right now too.Even though i fear that i have sinned.No i dont fear it,in fact i have indeed sinned.But i wish that someday i will be able to be set free.Whatever is that keeps me down.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Mellow, I apologize for being insensitive to the fact that you may indeed be searching. I was wrong to assume the reason you came here. Please forgive me in that. I sincerely hope I have not hurt nor offended you in any way.

            We have had discussions in the past with others who come in the name of reconciling their viewpoints with our faith, and the object soon becomes evident that what they are seeking to do is belittle our faith and draw us into their belief system or else we are ignorant, intolerant, etc.

            I was 19 once, and for you to be searching is a good thing. Now is the time for you to lay the foundation for your life.

            I want you to know, in all love, respect and kindness, that God's wrath and the death of little ones and whole nations is something that is a kindness when they were causing their children to pass through the fire and were intent on violence and evil against each other. One puts an animal down once it gets to a certain point of suffering. God had to put whole societies down for the same reason. The good news is, He is also the God of resurrection.

            If it is truth you are seeking, you have come ot a good place. Please feel free to discuss your concerns, on the condition that you are willing to consider the replies given and not simply drawing them out to shoot them down… have had that happen before, and it is no fun for anyone. :-)
            Tim

          • Thank you and no you havent insaulted me,i understand your comment,i think i was the one who didnt write my comment well.Sorry for my english.And yes i’ve just begun searching the whole thing.I’ve been very confused because i live in a country that people really want to think that they’re true christians.But i’ve learnt (unfortunately),that whenever i go to the church i must kiss the icon of a saint and many other habbits of idolatry.When i first learnt about how wrong that really was,i was shocked because everyone here is used to it,and they think they do the right thing,when unwillingly they commit idolatry.My family also does that,but they havent red the bible,we dont own one either,and its hard for me to go to them and start telling them about how wrong their whole lifetime habbits have been.They think they’re good Christians,even if they make these mistakes,and i know that if they knew they wouldnt do it on purpose.My mom is an angel and a very good person who cant even harm a fly.But what can i do for her habbits or my habbits too?Go and tell her stop commiting idolatry?Thats why i started searching more and more about the bible and our whole faith and thats why im here.Im trying to find the best way,of being faithful without insaulting God.And im sorry for my previous comments,they had a bit of ‘unwanted anger’,on them.Thanks for your advices :)

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Do you not have a Bible? Would you like one? Can we send one? It is the only way. Of course, you can view online Bibles, but there is nothing like the written, printed word. Are you in a place where that is possible?

            Now you have me playing a guessing game! :) Do you live in India? I live in America.

          • I live in Greece,but i never had the chance to have a bible.We have the old and new testament in my house,but i only recently had begun searching.I will soon make sure to buy a Bible though,as soon as i find time and the right money to afford it :)

          • Timothy Luke says:

            The Bible is both the old and new testaments together. The books of the apocrypha are not in our Bible, but all the rest are. The apocrypha includes

            Check your private messages for more information. It is found under the “Main Menu” bar.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            there are many roads of confusion in religion and other wise, I am not offended,but glad to have a chance to help.sin is in churches,gov,and every day life, Jesus said let the tares and the wheat grow together,and when he comes he will serperate them. please be the wheat,if I come on strong its my way,I know God for sure and thats all I am sure of in this life,I am not the enemy but the enemy of you and me both is satan,he doesn’t care what we believe,as long as don’t allow Jesus in our heart, read the bible,anything that is not in harmony,regardless who says,with the word,leave it alone,I think a battle inside is going on ,and you will soon choose,if I or anyone on this site can help,feel free,to ask.this is your life,you decide,GOD BLESS

          • Thank you,i will try to read the whole bible through the web,since i cant afford buying one right now.:)Hopefully it will clear some things out.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            your most welcome,and we are here for you if nessasary,your not alone on this, I suggest the new testiment first,but anyway you choose,

          • Timothy Luke says:

            <p>Mellow, if I respect you, I will let you know when the hotel you are sleeping in is burning down, even if that happens to irritate you at the moment. This world will pass away and all things in it will be consumed with fire. There is only one way out. Jesus is The Way out. If I love you, I will share that with you, or I can have a nice day and only fellowship with believers and act like it doesn&#39;t matter to me what God says is going to happen if you do not turn fully to Him.</p><p>You can choose to look at that as bullying and then force your tolerance (which is intolerant of our faith) upon us… that would make you the bully, and a hypocrite. Tell me you are neither and if you do not wish to be a Christian, then please do not come here to shame us with subtle deceptions and accusations against us because we do indeed know and believe and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.</p><p>
            Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven. He speaks of the earth being renewed and the curse being lifted… He speaks of a time of no more sorrow and no more tears. The “light” you are serving cannot bring that to pass, for it indeed is darkness masquerading as light and it will be cast into the lake of fire once and for all before the Lord can deliver peace and love and joy to this world. Your “light” is in conflict with the God who creates and sustains all things good… for He is the Father of lights. If there were no conflict with your “light” and the true light that lights every man (Jesus Christ) then you would not have come here in the name of making peace, would you? Fact is there is a conflict, and your “light” is a phony that promotes God hating by acting like it would “never dream of punishing anyone for anything… oh my!”
            May God help you see through the deceptions. and if you are so tolerant, then I trust you will not be offended by my sharing my faith with you. If it offends you, then you should consider the fact that offense is what intolerance looks like from the inside out.
            Thank you, Tim</p>

        • Timothy Luke says:

          "And one basic thing i have learnt from his teaching is that Jesus never said anything about 'punishment',or 'wrath' of the God against those who didnt believe in him.He never said anything about God's revenge in his children,because some of them chose the wrong way.And if its true that some evil forces have chose to decieve people,then its most definitely not our fault that we have been decieved,is it?"

          Mellow,

          You are indeed uninformed of what Jesus did say. He is more than "a great teacher" He says, "I am THE way, THE truth and THE Life, NO man comes to the Father, except through me." He also taught his disciples that it was HE who created ALL things, visible and invisible… that includes the angelic realm that rebelled against him.

          You say, "Jesus never said anything about 'punishment',or 'wrath' of the God against those who didnt believe in him."  Of all the people in the Bible who spoke of hell and being cast into it, Jesus was the one by far who spoke of it. He spoke of being fruitful in Him as the vine, or being cut off and cast into hell fire.

          You ask, "if its true that some evil forces have chose to decieve people,then its most definitely not our fault that we have been decieved,is it?"

          Yes, it is our fault. Scripture is given to lead us out of deception. The Bible repeatedly warns us, "be not deceived."  We are called to lay down our lives and our own rights for the sake of the Gospel. We are told "broad is the way and wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Narrow is the way and strait is the gate that leads to eternal life, and FEW there be that find it."

          So, we choose to 'go with the flow' of this world and its various religions and end up in destruction, or we align ourselves with the One True God and forsake all else. The warnings of Jesus are clear and unmistakable on this point, so, as dear and sweet and loving as you may be, if it is not the love of God flowing in you, and you are not living for Him, then He says you will have a problem in the last day.

          Now, you can be offended at God for Him being so narrow minded, but at the end of the day, HE IS THE ONE WHO CREATED YOU and NOT YOU HIM. You will be called into His office, on HIS terms, not yours. I do not think He will be impressed with your reasoning when He has made himself quite clear.

          Please, for your sake, not mine or anyone else's, turn to Him with all your heart and forsake your idols and incantations and the powers you are dabbling with. When you proclaim that Jesus is now your Lord and you will not serve these inferior imposter wanna be's you will see how much they really love you. They will threaten you if you leave them, but JESUS is greater and will save you from them. Also, note that Jesus is not threatening your physical life. You can live this life anyway you choose. He is simply telling us there is a judgment coming and laying out the rules of the road so we can prepare to stand blameless in that day.

          If you love me, Jesus says to you Mellow, "keep my commandments." The very first commandment is, "thou shalt have no other gods before me." This doesn't mean 'put Jesus first," It means, only God and no others in your heart.

          Not trying to be mean to you. If you are deceived, it is YOUR responsibility to clear the issue up in this life, or face the consequences. We will all love you in the mean time. Its just that the bridge is out on the road you are travelling and we are merely letting you know before you go over the edge on a dark and stormy night.

          Tim

          “If you seek me, you shall find me, when you seek me with ALL YOUR HEART.”
          “Father, please draw Mellow to you and deliver her from the powers of deception. Grant her repentance to the acknowledging of the truth, and let us all love her and help her be set free. In Jesus’ name, amen.”

    • stevehenry says:

      greetings in jesus name.i just read what you had to say.i want you to no,i am praying for you my,friend.i, want you to no,jesus loves you,while we were yet sinners jesus died for us.i no were you are coming from.jesus can set you free,osiel.we all need one another,we need to pray,and upleft one another.we need to encourage,reach out with the arm of faith,in love to people like you.jesus is the way,the truth and the life,no man comes to the father any other way.i will pray for you,and i point you to the king of kings and lord of lords,who is able to meet your every need.jesus is able,amen.cast all your care on him,for jesus cares for you,osiel.dear lord jesus,i want to pray for my friend,osiel.speak to his heart,threw your holy spirit.help him lord jesus,i pray,i ask this in your wonderful name,amen.god bless you,osiel.let us no how you are doing.all the best.stevehenry

  20. Thank you for posting my comment. I was taken back a little but I have just a little more respect for at least one Christian now. I look forward to your reading your thoughts on the subject.
    Respectfully,
    Jay

  21. evstevemd says:

    Hello Good people! I would like to point few thing I don’t like! It is because they are source of all these trouble we are facing as Christians from non Christians
    1. Misrepresentation of Jesus! I have seen many so-calling themselves Christians but are cruel and non loving and apostate and….. you can go on. But does that make Christianity Cruel, apostate or non loving? No! You see, Jesus said that Summary of whole Law and Prophets is “Love God, Love neighbor as you love yourself”. This Means, Bible is to be a measure of What Christianity is! NOT Personal opinions

    2.Counterfeit Apostles and Prophets: This sickens me! The fact that there is counterfeit, assures presence of Genuine Miracles. In My Country there is great Christian teacher,Christopher Mwakasege whose passion is “Jesus is glorified”. Many Miracles happens in His tent meetings in Jesus’ name! For your information, One lady encountered Jesus that She needed no one to convince her about Jesus and she received Jesus instantly after her miraculous healing. Tumours dissolving, barren having children and all these have been in Hospitals with no hope!

    Saying these, let me answer some queries presented here! Let me start question: If i say USA doesn’t exist, does that make USA dissolve from existence? Or Much simpler if I say 2+2=9, does that make it so? No! Then when dealing with things of God, you better consider what is true rather than what You think is true!

    Bible is 100% true and have proved to be so! Archeology have proved everything in the Bible to be real, Cities mentioned, coins used, Kings Lived, Emperors, and anyone considering evidence will have no doubt that Bible is true! Many Have been questioning Bible’s Authority but I think it is the time to ask themselves why do they believe what they believe, and give evidence of what they believe to be true, and then question The Bible! If Bible being written by many writers, from different background, at different times is 100% accurate and contain no single contradiction, why Not believe that God spoke through it? If it is full of prophecy which were predicted many years and came to pass exactly as said why not believe that Bible is God speaking, who made the Universe? Does History support The Bible? Yes! Bible History is Not only true but accurate. Don’t tell me that you don’t know anything from History about Jesus! If that is the case just honestly re-study History

    I have started posting in my weblogs in this site and in http://www.elijahministries.wordpress.com and consider to pass there and see what you can get there! I’m coming soon with Apologetic evidence on integrity and truth of the Bible, the word by which man is to live

    Concern Adam, who allegedly said Jesus was cruel to cast out of Temple MoneyChangers, I have question for you! If you are teacher, and find student are playing football in class, would you stand with your books enjoying what they do? I Hope you wouldn’t do it if you are sane. So what was Jesus cruelity by casting them out?

    Also concerning pigs, who cruelly killed them? It is plain clear that demons which entered the swines. What Jesus did is permitting them what they petitioned! That shows clearly how cruel is god of pagans.

    Lastly, I have to ask all who are pagans, How sure are you if you die today, you will 100% GO TO PLACE OF REST NOT OF TORMENT? And How sure are you that your gods/goddeses are true and that they created universe. I perceive all false religions as pathways back to Babylon, with same intention of Rebuilding unfinished tower of Babel!

    Ev. Steve Apologia md

    • To Poster :Ev. Steve Apologia md.
      Hello to and the best of wishes. I was reading you post and saw that you had questions for me (ADAM) and Pagans in general so I will answer them but I think I would also like to answer some other general question you asked as well as some of your statements. Since your post is long I will answer them in small sections.

      Point 1. Misrepresentation of Jesus! I have seen many so-calling themselves Christians but are cruel and non loving and apostate and….. you can go on. But does that make Christianity Cruel, apostate or non loving? No! You see, Jesus said that Summary of whole Law and Prophets is “Love God, Love neighbor as you love yourself”. This Means, Bible is to be a measure of What Christianity is! NOT Personal opinions

      Answer:
      I personally think that a religion can be judged off of the majority of its adherents. I then must point out that the Majority of Christians thought the history of Christianity have been curler and more violent than not. Forget the witch trials of the evil ages; look at the satanic Panic of the 90’s which has been proven again and again to be false. Then there are the often repeated claims that Pagans eat human flesh and other such insanity. Then there are several examples of straight Christian males who have beaten and even killed Homosexuals. The Bible appears to be about love and peace on the surface but if you scratch the surface just a little bit you find the bible is not so love after all. If Jesus is the son of God or God robed in the flesh and is the same God of the Jew’s of ancient Israel then there are some issues. The bible says “Hebrews Chapter 13, verse 8. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” In the Torah the Jewish God committed some of the worst crimes ever visited upon humanity. Crimes that (if the Bible were anything more than a mix of a tribal peoples history and religious mythology) would make him far worse than the Christian devil. He condemns raped women to be stoned to death as shown in Deuteronomy 22:23-24. What if the woman went into shock? What if she was too afraid to cry out for help due to threats? That bible makes no space for this sort of thing. It condemns her to death without qualification. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 is an example of civilian POWS being abused by the ancient Jews at the behest of their God. The list can go on and on. Zechariah 14:1-2 is the last one I’ll use but it’s a good one. If the bible is used to be the measure of what Christianity is because its Gods word then your bible condemns it’s self and you’re God. Remember He never changes.

      Point 2.)Counterfeit Apostles and Prophets: This sickens me! The fact that there is counterfeit, assures presence of Genuine Miracles. In My Country there is great Christian teacher,Christopher Mwakasege whose passion is “Jesus is glorified”. Many Miracles happens in His tent meetings in Jesus’ name! For your information, One lady encountered Jesus that She needed no one to convince her about Jesus and she received Jesus instantly after her miraculous healing. Tumours dissolving, barren having children and all these have been in Hospitals with no hope! Saying these, let me answer some queries presented here! Let me start question: If i say USA doesn’t exist, does that make USA dissolve from existence? Or Much simpler if I say 2+2=9, does that make it so? No! Then when dealing with things of God, you better consider what is true rather than what You think is true!

      Answer:
      Your questions make no logical sense. The United States is a Physical/geographical location. Math is a fact. The idea of God or Gods are not Physical or provable fact. It’s a belief. In effect it’s little more than a hope of the human mind. You cannot prove that God exists beyond a doubt in the same manner that I can prove the existences of the United States or a mathematical fact. If you could it would have already happened. So I guess you should consider your own advise.

      Point 3.) Bible is 100% true and have proved to be so! Archeology have proved everything in the Bible to be real, Cities mentioned, coins used, Kings Lived, Emperors, and anyone considering evidence will have no doubt that Bible is true! Many Have been questioning Bible’s Authority but I think it is the time to ask themselves why do they believe what they believe, and give evidence of what they believe to be true, and then question The Bible! If Bible being written by many writers, from different background, at different times is 100% accurate and contain no single contradiction, why Not believe that God spoke through it? If it is full of prophecy which were predicted many years and came to pass exactly as said why not believe that Bible is God speaking, who made the Universe? Does History support The Bible? Yes! Bible History is Not only true but accurate. Don’t tell me that you don’t know anything from History about Jesus! If that is the case just honestly re-study History

      Answer:
      The Bible has NEVER EVER been proven to be 100% true. Archeology has shown that the bible is a mixture of a tribal people’s history and religious myth, nothing more. Archeology has also shown that the geographical locations, lives and coins of Pagan peoples history to be true as well. Dose that prove their myths were true as well? By your logic it would. In fact it only proves that many parts of a peoples history is used to shore up their religious mythos. I happen to believe that the Pagan ones are true, while you believe it’s the monotheistic mythoi that are true. Neither can be proven. Hebrew 11: 1 “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” The prophecy that you talk about was written well after the dates of the events prophesied about. Retroactive prophecy is not true prophecy is history. The Bible is also full of contradictions. The bible say’s “Thou shall not kill and then God goes on to tell the Jews to kill not only men but women and children as well. I call that a HUGE contradiction and that’s an easy one. The list of them would take a year or two to write about. Most scholars do believe a Jewish 1st Century religious leader and political rebel that you call Jesus lived. However there are hardly any extra-biblical bits of evidences for his life. That which does exist is highly questionable. Not what I’d call strong historical fact. Nothing that you’re stating above has any merit. That’s why I don’t believe it. It’s just not truly accurate regardless of how much you might say it is or even wish it was.

      Now on to the last part of your post:
      Concern Adam, who allegedly said Jesus was cruel to cast out of Temple MoneyChangers, I have question for you! If you are teacher, and find student are playing football in class, would you stand with your books enjoying what they do? I Hope you wouldn’t do it if you are sane. So what was Jesus cruelity by casting them out?Also concerning pigs, who cruelly killed them? It is plain clear that demons which entered the swines. What Jesus did is permitting them what they petitioned! That shows clearly how cruel is god of pagans.Lastly, I have to ask all who are pagans, How sure are you if you die today, you will 100% GO TO PLACE OF REST NOT OF TORMENT? And How sure are you that your gods/goddeses are true and that they created universe. I perceive all false religions as pathways back to Babylon, with same intention of Rebuilding unfinished tower of Babel!

      Answer and finishing comments:
      If I were a teacher and I found the situation you describe above, I’d correct the problem without resorting to murder. Jesus rather directly or indirectly (depending on your point of view) was the cause of the swine herds needless death. That’s animal cruelty. If Jesus permitted the so called evil spirits to kill the pigs, then he is at the very least an accessory to murder or animal cruelty or both. Ultimately if he is/was God in flesh, then he (being all powerful as is claimed) could have done anything else but instead decided to intentionally kill the swine herd. Thus he is at fault. What shows how cruel is god of pagans? Your statement is confused. Pagan Gods were never mentioned in this verse, only Jesus and his banished Angelic rivals. To your last question I for one and 100,000 % sure that when I die, I’ll be at rest until my time comes to cycle around again and that the Gods and Goddesses are the creators of the multi-verse. How can you be so sure there not?
      You see Mr. Apologia, I’m not picking a fight, I’m answering your questions. You asked them after all. Secondly there are many points of view, yours in only one among the many. You really place yourself on a high peddle stool when you assume that yours is the only right one and O boy is it a big drop when you fall. I’m out of time for now but I wish you well.
      Regards,
      Adam

      • JustAGuy says:

        Adam, I appreciate the courtesy and civility of your posts. Disagreeing is such a sensitive thing for people to do, as it touches of rejection and accusation all too easily.

        Quite clearly if the law of God were obeyed, there would be zero deaths from sexually transmitted diseases (which kills like 100,000:1 verses violence against homosexuals). There are millions of people who would not have succombed to AIDS and numerous other sexually transmitted diseases. This does not address the untold pain and loss of wealth in dealing with diseases that occur and cause torment.

        Nature itself conforms to the Word of God and speaks against violation of the precepts as enumerated in scripture. Perfect Love, as defined by Jesus Christ and scripture, is not responsible for one illness or stress condition that I know of. In my studies it is the aberrations from the law of God, ie, envy, bitterness, fear, and even occultism, that have opened people up for disease and possession and oppression of spirit, soul, and body.

        My Question to you is, Under your preposition of “I personally think that a religion can be judged off of the majority of its adherents,” How can you state that Christians kill homosexuals, as though a majority of Christians support it? Our judicial systems, which are founded on Christ and Biblical code, forbid murder and prosecute it regardless of it being a ‘straight’ murderer? This prosecution is done with the full support of the people and churches. Whenever such iniquity occurs a chorus of churches raise their voices to condemn the murderers. To assert what you have asserted is untrue and is very inflammatory in its content.

        Thanks for considering this,
        Timothy

        • Hello Timothy,
          Blessings of the day to you.
          I too appreciate your civility. I agree with you that when two people disagree over any given subject that it can turn harsh very easily. This always destroys the chance for healthy debate. I always want to stop that from happening when it can be prevented. From my point of view your idea on zero deaths from STD’s if all people obeyed the bible is …shall we say overly optimistic? Dieses, regardless of how they are transmitted always have and always will kill mortal beings. I’m sure that this would be so even if every living thing followed the Bible to the last detail.
          If I gave off the impression that I thought ALL Christians would support murdering gays or anyone else that was not my intent and I apologize for that. What I was trying to do is show that violence from young Christian males is not unheard of by any means. Matthew Shepherded is one example and both men that killed him were professing Christians’ that did murder him because he was homosexual. I agree that diesis kill more people that heterosexuals. I am merely pointing out that there are still members of the Christian faith that have no issue with killing or at least not condemning the death of homosexuals. Reverend Phelps of Kansans would be one such person. I would go so far as to say he celebrates their deaths. The overall history of the Christian faith or moment is a very violent one. It has more often than not in the past resembled modern Islamic religious terrorist groups. It has moved away from that over the past 500 or so years but there are still glaring left over ideas from such times which seem to permeate the faith.
          Our judicial system is only partly based of The Bible, many of our laws and ideas come from classical Pagan laws and ideals. Most of our Governmental infrastructure came from Pagan Rome and Greece. I was a member of the U.S. government for many years as a member of the Armed Forces. So I’m not unknowledgeable about how the system I have protected works or how it was formed, little lone how it has been paid for. I personally see the very best of two systems of religious beliefs mixing to create one of the greatest systems humanity has ever come up with. It’s far from perfect but me and many others have given much to ensure its survival so that you and my family and all other Americans could benefit from its protection.

          I do disagree with your statements on the Occult. The study of Occult knowledge or practices is neither negative nor open people up to any of the things you mentioned. The Gods were not created by your god; rather (from my point of view) The Jewish God is a rebellious child deity that has broken away from the larger family of Gods. This deity took a rabble rousing pack of tribal/ bronze aged humans and fed them a line, which they ate up. From my perspective Christians’ have been taken by the same line, only they are worse off because they worship one of his followers and not even the God its self. Now I am sure that above seems inflammatory, it’s truly not meant that way. It’s just how I see the whole subject over all. I am however sure that many Christians today do not want to see people killed in mass as their predecessors (the Catholic church of the Middle Ages) did. I do think that the majority of Christians are moderates and respect human life. But the rhetoric that is often used makes even the modern church look bad. Again I think that we can agree to disagree even while debating and co-existing.
          Blessings to you,
          Adam

          • warrior daughter says:

            Many people profess to be Christian but in reality they are not…Some people think they are Christian because they were raised in a church….Some people think they are Christian because they have a Christian family member…Some people think they are Christian because they had a ancestor who was a Christian….Some people think they are Christian because they live a moral life…..Some people think they are Christian because they do good things….Some people think they are Christian because they go to church weekly or occassionally….Some people think they are Christian because they watch or listen to Christian television or radio….Some people think they are Christian because they do repetitive prayers daily…..The list can go on and on why people may think they are a Christian…..

            I was raised in a Christian home and I had grandparents who bought land and built churches on them….I went to church every time the doors were open….I thought I was a Christian but just because of who my grandparents were or going to church did not make me a Christian….I struggled for many years and my thinking toward God the Father was of a God who was mad at me for all the bad things that I could not say no to….

            Finally I met Jesus Christ and my life changed greatly….I had to admit that I was a sinner and I could not do things in my own way but it had to be His perfect way for my life…I had to believe that only the Blood of Jesus could cleanse me and make me a different person….And I had to confess with my entire being that I was a sinner in need of a Savior….That night of September 11, 1983 changed me into a Christian and whereas nothing else could ..I did change and I am still changing…I am His beloved child of God….A servant of the true living God….There are no regrets….

            Again may call themselves Christian but calling one-self Christian does not make you a Christian…..Only Jesus Christian and His Blood can make you a Christian…..

          • How many other Christians would say the same of you? How many other Christians do say the same about you? There are so many Christians out there saying that their way is the only true way to be a Christian that it sends some really mixed messages. How can anyone know that you have the goods when millions of others claim the same thing, what makes your brand name of Christianity the one all us poor unsaved people should follow? Is it because you’re so full of zeal? The crusaders had that and the Christian snake handles of today have it too. The “Holy roller” aka Pentecostals have tons of zeal, so nothing special there. Is it because you demean others nily-wily? The Pope’s have done that for far longer and better than you do. So, nothing new there. Maybe it’s because you’re so verbose? Nope, the current Pope has you beat again and so dose John Hagee (don’t know how to spell his last name) and many others. Why should people come worship Jesus at all little lone “WARRIOR DAUGHTER” style if you’re saying the same thing the rest of them are? Not trying to be a jerk, it just seems that you make some pretty weighty claims without a lot of goods to show for it.
            Adam J-

          • warrior daughter says:

            Not trying to be a jerk, it just seems that you make some pretty weighty claims without a lot of goods to show for it.

            The goods are being shown and that is a completely different life I have now….a life of peace within… a life that will continue on after my death….a life that is worth waking up to ….a life of joy and happiness….a life that is new and full of mercy every day….It is abundant life ………

            If I sound like your mother,that is probably because I am old enough to be your mother if not your grandmother….Experience teaches and a person who learns from their experience is able to teach others…………

          • O dear,
            I didn’t mean to call you old…LoL… but maybe you are old enough to be my mother. The Gods bless her, she means well but so often she comes across as over bearing. If your life is changed for the better that’s good, however I can say the exact same thing.
            Blessings,
            Adam J-

          • horns4plenty says:

            Adam,
            I have read a lot of your comments and it appears you believe strongly in your ideas that are contrary to the Creator of this universe. Now you are definitely bold and brazen in your defiance of the One true God. Adam may I just tell you that the voices in your head you are choosing to listen to are not about your best interest. They are setting you up for evil and not good. My father and I have dealt with and helped many individuals that where heavily involved in witchcraft and sorcery who had reached a point where they realized what I just told you was true. God has another name for these so called gods that you think exist. They are the powers of darkness and they deal in deception and lies and they will tell you whatever they have to enslave and deceive you.

            We love to help people who want out of withcraft and when they get set free from the powers of darkness they make excellent warriors for the gospel of the Kingdom. Now as far as “facts” go I have seen a woman who was being groomed to be a bride of Satan get set free from the witchcraft and torment and now is now serving God mightily.

            My father and I have dealt with one of the principle witches in all of Guatemala who supposedly had thousands of so called witches under him. He had being making threats against the owner of this company and his family of the company he had been working for basically claiming himself as untouchable by this owner and by supposedly believers of Christ. We where asked to fly down to Guatemala and break the curses of the owner and his family and touch on this witch a little bit. So we did. Right before we fired him out of this company we where trying to minister the true message of salvation and he kepted telling us there where many ways to God and he sounded so much like you. The saddest thing of all is we found out this man had used to be a preacher before he turned to the occult. His hunger lust for signs and wonders had led him down that road. I wonder several times what this man must have been thinking when he realized his power was completely useless when encountering true disciples of Christ who understand and walk with the authority Christ has given us to tread over the powers of darkness.

            We have been attacked many times by witches or cults that have tried to stop the ministry we have been called to walk in. My Lord and Savior has delivered us everytime and I know that no weapon formed against us shall prosper when our hearts and minds are completely submitted to Him. We are turning the table on the powers of darkness and are coming to their camp. The powers of darkness has assalted believers and the church all the way back to the Garden of Eden and God is raising up a remnant of believers in the last days that will boldy assalt the gates of hell and claim back the lives for the Gospel of the Kingdom that Satan and his deceptive lying spirits has stolen and captured.

            I have watched my God due some amazing deliverances. “Fact” I have also watched my God take a childs arm, that was deformed from birth, and completely restore it in front of my eyes. I have watched my God heal a teenagers body in Saltillo Mexico that was covered head to toe in thousands of warts. After the warts where gone she had the most beatiful skin. It was just like a babies. I have watched my God heal a man of Leukemia. I have watched my God heal many people completely of cancer and diabetes. I have watched my God heal people of physical and spiritual blindness.

            I have watched my God deliver and set free many people free of alcohol, and drug addiction immediately. I have seen God mightily deliver a transvestite in Minnesota. Adam, when a man is so enslaved to demons of mockery that they convince him he was born a homsexual and he was supposed to be a woman and he needs to alter his body, that is a bad deal. I have seen a man accept Jesus and walk away, as a assasin from the Mexican drug cartel, knowing it would cost him his life. This man was surrounded shortly thereafter and shot 49 times killing him. That mans death lead our ministry to this man’s town and now a huge revival has broken out there in supposedly one the most dangerous towns in all of Mexico that borders the US. We have another man who was recently saved and set free from the drug cartel and now attends our church in Dallas, TX.

            My ministry and my calling take me many times to places where Christians are not supposed to safely go. My father, myself, and many other members of our ministry team have had our lives threatened many times and have been warned not to go here or not to go there. We get excited everytime because we know that is where the Lord wants us, is right in the heat of the battle, and if we lose our life ministring the Gospel of Jesus then so be it, because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and when you truly submit your life to the Lord you are already a dead man walking but alive in Christ.

            Adam, if you continue down the road you are heading it is going to eventually bring destruction in this lifetime and in the lifetime to come. I know today what I am saying is probably going to go in one ear and out the other, but someday you are going to get yourself into a situation that is way bigger than you can handle and I hope you will remember some of the words I have spoken. Especially these, My Lord and Savior loves you, and gave His life for you, and their is no situation, to big or to great, that He can’t deliver you out of if you repent and turn to Him. There is no demonic stronghold that He can not tear down and destroy. I have been blessed enough to witness it many times.
            God Bless
            Corey

          • JustAGuy says:

            .

          • Dear Corey,
            While I must disagree with you, I see that you believe what you are saying and so in the spirit of good will I thank you for your concern. You see I have seen many of the same things that you speak of. But it was the Gods that did them. I have seen the dead rise. The so called “Witches” you speak of are not true Witches. We are not out to attack you or anyone else. We are trying not to be abused by people of monotheistic faiths in the streets, at work or in the courts of laws that want to take our children away because we are not Christians. We don’t want to have to worry about our brothers and sisters of school age who are targets for extremist Christians and Muslims and they are out there, even if they are the minority. As an SSgt in the Air Force I have traveled the world to help others, not hurt the innocent. Would you call me a bad person? Do you think that I will spend my night casting spells on you Corey? If you do, you’re greatly mistaken. You group me with drug dealers and murders because I am a Witch or this is how it sounds to me. Is that fair of you to do? Why should you think that I want to come against you? Why do you think that I am tormented when I am happier than I have ever been? As a Christian I was tormented by the church, by its members, by so called men and women of God. They filled my brain with the guilt of lies and deceit. They cried “HOLY HOLY ART THOU O LORD” while they watched the needy go untended. They back bite and stabbed each other. Not just one church but every church that I walked into was like that. They all said the same things. “We are not like that; we are truly the children of God.” As it turned out, they were, they followed the tenets of their faith all too well. I have yet to see an actual church that is not full of vipers. I have met individual Christians that were truly good people, many of them have become Pagan or Buddhists or members of other faiths when they saw the destruction left about them from the Bible believing members of their churches. The fact is that I tried Jesus and his churches of many flavors. Fact is that I found them all empty and dead, void of anything real or sustaining. Fact is that in Paganism I have found everything that I lacked before. I am happy and full of joy. By the way being Homosexual is a Monotheists sin, not a Pagan one. Nature proves over and over again that there is a percentage of Gay or Bisexual animals and we are after all another kind of animal on our great mother planet. I see in your words what I have seen in so many other Christian hysterics, FEAR of that which they don’t understand. I see the words of one who wishes to impart fear (even while meaning to do well) into the hearts of others. Fear is the tool of the lost and weak. I am strong and will not bow before your Godling in fear. I am Free Corey, free in a way that you don’t understand. I am not fettered and bound to your god by a fear of Hell or any other tyrannical threat the bibles uses to enslave people. You seem to be under the impression that my freedom is a threat to you. Maybe it is because you see what you’re missing out on? Maybe you fear the unknown or you don’t want to take a risk? I can tell you this Corey, there are no witches under your bed, and we are not in your closet either. We are not out to get you. We are not the boogey man you make us out to be. We are HUMAN BEINGS. Can you understand that Corey? Can you look past your faith and see that even the people that disagree with you are not evil monsters? Can you see us? Maybe not, maybe all you see is what you have been taught to see or want to see. Maybe we are your monsters because you have decided to see us as such. Will you help to light the flames of the inquisition again Corey? Will you burn us again? Will you preside over us as a Christian Judge and send us to our graves? Is that what the Church wants again, is it what you want? I want a life where we can all be friends even while serving different religions or none at all. I want a planet where Holy war does not exist. I don’t come to you with words of death and lifelessness; I don’t come to you and say… “It’s my Gods way or the grave for you.” I come to you with words of friendship and hope; of life, saying that we don’t have to agree on everything to live on earth as adult Human beings that can find a way to make our world better. Tell me, how is that so wrong?
            Adam j-

          • horns4plenty says:

            Dear Adam J,
            You have boldly come on this website and mocked and blasphemed the God of Israel, The Lord of Host, and King of Kings. You are treading on dangerous ground. You have gone on railing and shooting off your mouth like you where some sort of spiritual Goliath. I have taken offense at the worthless entities that have deceived you into running your mouth foolishly and call themselves Trixie and Pixie. Oops my bad! They call themselves Odin and Thor. The finger of God is about to touch these two and all of the powers of darkness attached to them. My fight is not against you Adam, but it is against any of the powers of darkness that would masquerade, play games with peoples lives and; dare to call itself a deity, in defiance to the Lord ,and deceive people such as your self, and take you to hell with them. I am choosing not to waste any more of my time engaging you in useless rhetoric which you describe as healthy debate, but I am choosing rather to engage your little gods in the spiritual arena as I started last night and will continue to do so until The Lord releases me from it. I am sure you had a most interesting day, and tomorrow things will intensify 7 more times in the spiritual arena. The day after that 7 more times and so on and so on. It is still not too late for you Adam, but it will require complete repentance on your part. I kind of hope that Odin and Thor are both third level or higher demons. Adam you may be ignorant to what the finger of God can do, but they are not. That’s why they will eventually turn on you if you don‘t repent and turn away from them. There is nothing like the scream that a demon, especially a third level or plane demon, makes when Jesus Christ singles them out and cast them into the abyss. Adam your agenda to me is unclear as to why you visited this website in the first place. You claim to be free, but that is another lie or deception you have been led to believe as truth. Satan told Eve all the way back in the Garden of Eden she had freedom to sin and it would not bring eternal death, but that was a lie. I have seen when you speak that you hold a lot of un-forgiveness in your heart towards other people. You are angry at most Christians; you are angry at God; you are angry at your mother. When you harbor anger or un-forgiveness in your heart towards others that is not freedom Adam, but that brings torment. God never turned His back on you Adam, and He still hasn’t, but do not be deceived into thinking you can come to a website or forum such as this and mock God on public display and not suffer the consequences for your actions. Jesus is the only way you will ever walk in freedom. The Heavenly Host have already begun to surround your little heroes as well as the heroes of all your acquaintances. When you chose to come to this sight and mock the Lord of Lords and the only true God you set a trap for the powers of darkness that followed you here, and they will not escape. It is time for me to go to war again!
            Wake up Adam!
            from a bondservant of Christ!
            Corey

          • Corey,
            Well thank you for answering my questions. They are not the answers I had hoped for but not really all that surprising. Maybe not all Christians are like their ancestral church but it seems like you are. Do you hear yourself? You babble on about third level demons as if this isn’t crazy talk. They have pills for that you know. By the way my day was actually really great! I had a lot of fun today and tomorrow is looking even better. What’s funny to me is that you talked about people (Witches) that were out to get you but here you are spouting threats against me. You show your true colors. You are the same kind of person that killed and burned not only Pagans but other Christians at the stake 500 years ago. You and your kind of Christians are no better than Muslim terrorists of today. The law of our Nation is all the keeps you in check, even then as the brutal murder of Doctor Till shows, not even that is always enough. However Corey there is something that you should know, this is not 500 years ago. Pagans today are not at the mercy of the church or Christians. Today we are members of the Police, Military, CIA, FBI, NSA, Fire departments, we are your children’s teachers and your doctors, and we are your landlords and your judges. Today we are members of every kind of trade under the sun. We are all around you, we pass you in the street and ride next to you on the bus, drive next to you on the highways. We are not a ignorant disenfranchised group of people. We are everywhere. You talk about War and yet you know nothing about war Corey. I have seen what real war is. I know what happens on a battlefield. I was trained by the strongest Military on the planet to kill the enemies of the United States and I am not alone. Many members of the Armed Forces today are Pagans. We are not weak. Your ignorance’s is glaring. Is that what you want Corey, to declare war on people? Do you want to murder people in the streets because of their faith? It sounds that way to me. You don’t make it easy to take it any other way. Do you know what would happen if you tried it? It wouldn’t be pretty for you, I can tell you that as a matter of fact. You have to know that no matter what you babble on about, this nation is not a Christian Nation in is secular nation that indulges the freedom of every religion. Remember Corey we are not weak, we can’t be tied to the stakes anymore. You threaten with words but many of us act with action. We are using the Law’s of the land to gain and keep our freedoms; we use the courts of Law to punish those that try to murder us. We use the right of self defense to stop them that try to harm us. You don’t know what power is Corey, you have no clue. You talk about me mocking you petty god….LOL…you have no idea of what you’re dealing with. The Gods indulge little minds like yours because they love and you are lucky it’s so. You see that’s the differences between me and you. You work off of fear and hate to make others do as you wish. I don’t. I am not threatening you with Hell fire or angry gods. I am laughing at you and your comments. I laughing that you think your ineffectual prayers mean anything at all. If I pray to the insect and ask it to smite the bulldozer what does it accomplish? About the same thing that your prayers will. NOTHING! As far as my mother, I love her. She’s as nutty as an old hen but I love her. She’s imperfect and human. She is as flawed as the rest of us and I accept that. I love her anyway. Your faith is misplaced, you can keep it. You trust in a deity that has proven nothing and never will. Jesus said that he would return before the generation of the disciples passed away and he never came. Do you know why? Because when Rome crucified the criminal Jesus he died a real death and he stayed as dead as anyone else. You accuse me of speaking as if I am a spiritual goliath when it is you who spouts such bravado, acting as if you are some sort of figure from the biblical prophets or as if you will turn the rivers into blood. Well Corey I am waiting! Show me the awesome power of your insect. In the end, you’ll be as disappointed as any of the other extreamest that can’t do anything about their helplessness. Give it your best shot but remember you were warned…not to be fearful of me but of your own failure. Now I think I am going to take a break from coming here for a while. You see I didn’t want to argue, maybe when you have mellowed out and act like a normal person we can talk again.
            Adam J.

          • horns4plenty says:

            During some of my prayer time today, the Lord brought to my mind a memory from a movie I watched several years back or, actually, I guess it was closer to ten years ago. It was a dinosaur movie, and there was this one part where they where trying to bait this dinosaur to come in for public display and they had tethered this little goat to a stake. The Lord then began to quicken in my spirit that He likened Adam to this little goat. I began to remember more about the movie concerning this goat which actually turned out to be a main character in the movie. I remembered in the movie when they showed the little goat for the first time thinking that little goat was in big trouble. It was making a awful racket and I just knew or felt that this dinosaur was going to come out at any moment and devour this goat. Then a funny thing happened and the dinosaur did not show up. The movie then moved onto different scenes and characters in the movie but it always kept coming back to this goat tethered to the stake. I remember in a way almost starting to feel sorry for the helpless goat thinking that if the goat would just shut up the dinosaur might not see it or something, but as the movie continued along it came back to the goat one more time and the ground started to vibrate. I remembered thinking now you have done it goat; this can’t be good at all. It wasn’t.

            I began to question God today why he likened Adam to that helpless tethered goat. I knew there was more to it than that because after all that was just a movie, and God had told me the night before that Adam was bait to lay a trap for the powers of darkness. In the movie they did not trap this dinosaur in the movie and kill it so it was not making sense to me. I could see why God would liken Adam to a goat because we know that Jesus is going to separate the sheep from the goats. Then God brought to my attention that all down through the ages and even today whenever a village knew they where being stalked by a tiger or a lion that had become a man eater that they would often dig a huge pit or hole in the ground just outside of the village and then they would place some sort of livestock in the bottom of the pit tethered to a stake, often times a goat. When the tiger or lion would venture into the pit and pounce on the little goat then the men from the village would converge on the man eater and kill it. Then it began to make sense to me. God began to show me that Adam was in a pit and tethered to a stake, and just like the goat in the dinosaur movie Adam is running his mouth non stop, not realizing that his mouth is going to bring about his destruction much sooner if he does not repent.

            Satan can only act according to or as it relates to God’s law, is nothing more than a pawn in God’s hand and can do nothing without inquiring of God first. Demons are subject to the same laws. Here is the sad reality that I have seen ministering the gospel and that is for the majority right now God’s people have been getting destroyed left and right because of their ignorance for God’s word and their double mindedness. Satan knows God’s word very well and that is how he is able to stand as the accuser of the brethren, but he knows his days are numbered and the best way he can get back at God is to deceive and torment as many people as possible and take them to hell with him. God uses the powers of darkness to test the hearts and minds of men, both the just as well as the unjust. That is why God also says it rains on the just and the unjust. The beast of the field and the birds of the air are symbolic or is another term for the powers of darkness or demons. Remember also how Satan walks about as roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. When we choose to walk in rebellion to God’s word carrying out the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, or the boastful pride of life it opens the doors for the powers of darkness to come sow destruction in our lives, but when we as believers begin to walk according to God’s word and obey His perfect law of love and die to the fleshly desires of immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outburst of anger, disputes, dissentions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and thinks like these, then Jesus then will give you the authority to tread over all the powers of darkness. Then you cast of devils in the name of Jesus. You will lay hands on the sick and they will recover. I can not begin to tell you how much fun it is to go to war against the powers of darkness and watch them come against you one way and flee before you seven ways when you are walking under the authority of Jesus Christ. If you have never done it you are missing out. It is the most fun I have ever had. It is better than drinking, smoking, cussing, or all of those things I used to do before I came to know the Lord. It is time for the body of Christ to start growing up and walking in maturity. If you are not taking authority over the enemy and treading on serpents then can I tell you he is kicking your rear. Satan does not fight fair and neither do those that serve under him. Anyway thanks to Adam volunteering to be the sacrificial goat for everyone, if you have never had the opportunity to engage in spiritual warfare before then here is your opportunity to get in the game. But remember our war is not against flesh and blood. Adam is just a deceived puppet in the hands of the enemy. It is quite okay to pray for the destruction of the demons or idols that Adam serves but It is not okay to pray for the destruction of Adam. Remember we as believers are supposed to love our enemies especially those that despitefully use you and persecute you regardless of who they are. It does not matter if your enemy is your own house, or the employer you work for. God will use other peoples sins against you to test your heart to see if you will walk in forgiveness towards them. It is other peoples sins against you that will put you on the cross. When someone does something wrong or even hideously wrong to you, how do we as believers respond back. Do you respond in anger. Do you let it make you bitter. Do you stir up strife by telling others how badly they wronged you and therefore cause your friends or family to stumble or harbor un forgiveness towards that individual who has wronged you. These are the things you have to overcome when you start engaging in spiritual warfare, because Satan will make people say the most hateful things about you or to you when you start engaging the powers of darkness and kicking their tail all over the place.

            Oh yeah Adam, tomorrow is a new day for you which means 1 x 7 x 7 = 49. The day after tomorrow is when things will start to get interesting for you. A break from this sight is definitely in your best interest. I still will continue to pray that you wake up and repent before it‘s too late.

            To God be the glory forever!
            Corey
            .

          • JustAGuy says:

            For the record Corey, I share your zeal for God, but I do not share your actions in calling God to make life miserable for Tor and Odin regarding Adam. Or seeking Adam’s torment until he repents. God calls us by His love, He does not drive us to Himself out of fear. For a parent to do that to a child would widely be recognized and rightly so, as abusive.

            Candidly brother, I do not see your prayers as being according to God’s will. Where in the Bible do we see prayers like that being prayed?

            In this life we have authority to cast out devils and tread them under foot. Adam has not asked us to release him from his gods and shows himself in complete agreement. They have a right to be over him because God has given us free will to choose whom we serve.

            God has reserved a place called in the greek “tartaroo” where the angels will receive their reward in their season. Adam is free to choose until then and hopefully we can respect his right to be wrong, even as God respected our right to be wrong.

            When dealing with principalities and powers we need to be very careful that we ourselves do not cooperate with a strongman of Pride. Whether you are intending to be or not, your words “The day after tomorrow is when things will start to get interesting for you. A break from this sight is definitely in your best interest,” are threatening and do not represent the Lord. I love you Corey, and I love you Adam.

            Michael, can you take a moment to comment on this to let me know if I am the one missing it here?

            Blessings and Peace,
            Timothy

          • jesseedavis says:

            Hey Tim, just thought I’d stop in and put my 2 1/2 cents in. (I always seem to get carried away and put more than 2 in so yeah…)

            I think that Corey is right in a sense to do what he is doing. Now as I say this, I recognize that he is out of balance in some areas that you have pointed out, but in other areas he is exactly right. I think the first thing I see, is he has a knowledge of the word and experience doing what he knows. On top of this, he is following the lead of the Spirit in engaging at the moment, this is at least confirmed in my own spirit for it has done something within me. Anyways, according to the knowledge of God and the leading Corey has, he is doing what is right. I think what makes it right is that he is doing it by faith and is not willing to move from this position of faith. That is good and is according to the will of God. Another thing that I immediately noticed, though it is kind of hard to notice in the way he put it is that he is engaging the spirits that have control of his heart, not Adam. Adam took it in a carnal way, yet Corey put it more like Paul put it. This is good and right, because this engagement and prayer is what will bring about a break in the hold these devils have on him and allow Adam a chance to reach out to Jesus.

            Tim, something I’ve been thinking over quite a bit is that things we do and say may be according to God’s will even though they aren’t perfectly done. In other words, you may pray a prayer for something or someone that is completely just and right, but there is no love in it for the person it is towards. Prayers similar to this are all throughout the OT, specifically in the Psalms and God does act on these prayers just as He does on a prayer to spare someone of punishment for their act. This is kinda hard to put into words, but I hope you understand what I mean.

            As I said, he is out of balance in a few areas. Corey it is not my place to point these things out, so may God finish His work in you and stand strong in Him and keep fighting in His strength and power, Brother!

          • JustAGuy says:

            Thanks for sharing your thoughts Jessee! I appreciate your candor, even as I am candid. If Corey’s prayers are of the Lord and in agreement with the Holy Spirit, then they will be answered and my comments will be mine to answer for before the Lord. As with all my opinions, I reserve the right to be wrong and repent upon realization of it. I have pointed out my concern openly to brother Corey because his posts were open to all, not because I wish any shame or harm to anyone here.

            Blessings and Peace,
            Timothy

          • jesseedavis says:

            :) Hey, not a problem. Like I said they in doing one thing he neglected another. You’re doing what is right and pointing that out. Keep up the good work, Tim!! You’re a blessing to us all!!

            Jesse

          • horns4plenty says:

            Timothy,

            I really do not want to cause strife or friction on this website. I can not tell you what a blessing it has been to me to stumble accross website a little over a month ago.
            As far as Adam goes I will speak briefly. He was playing games with people trying to destroy the integrity of this website and the benefit that this sight is to believers who are earnestly trying to seek God and looking for answers. All Adam had to do was sow a little leaven into this website and next think you know you start to get roots of bitterness springing up on this website here and there. I have dealt with the likes of Adam many times before. I killed my lion and my bear privately a long time ago before I started tackling the likes of Adam face to face. I said the things I said to Adam with total purpose knowing that most on the people on this website would not have a clue what I was talking about, but Adam would what I was saying. I can not apologize for that. When I engage demonic activity in the spiritual arena I take a no prisoner approach. I do not have time to manage a POW camp.

            I wish I could take all of you guys around with me for about a year to go where I go and see what I see. Then you would see the powers of darkness at work in peoples lives, and they also take a no prisoner approach and will stop at nothing to kill, steal, and destroy. Satan does not fight fare and brother you can not worry about the devils feelings for goodness sake when addressing him. You go to war in any arena you can not worry that someone might find you to offensive or way over the top. You will get yourself killed. The church as a whole better wake up and learn what it means to offend someone with the gospel of Christ. When God started taking me down the road of deliverance and spiritual warfare more than ten years ago I had no idea what I was getting myself into, and brother I almost got myself killed. You are 100% correct that I will have to stand before my savior and give an account for every single idle word I have ever spoken, but much more importantly I will have to stand before Jesus and give an account for every word I did not speak. Jesus told me ten years ago when I started down this road there could be absolutely no compromise and it would cost me evrything to go down this road just like it cost my Lord and savior Jesus when He walked this earth for 33 years. Guess what? He was right. The first thing I lost was my reputation. Jesus was a man of no reputation, without sin, the Saviour of the world, and not to mention the Son of God, so I figured who was I to deserve one. Jesus was hated and despised by the religious leaders of His day. Think about that guys. Try to put yourself in Jesus shoes for just a moment. Here is Jesus who came to this earth because of His love for this sinful rebellious people; He is casting a demon of anger and harlotry out of a member of this pharisees synogogue and this pharisee assaults him verbally. Just what do you think you are doing here Jesus. This man is a deacon in my synogogue for ten years. By what authority are you doing these things. Besides I know your mother was a prostitute and a whore. You are a bastard child. You are a son of the devil.Can you hear this Pharisee grilling Jesus. This pharisee was a so called believer and child of God. Jesus suffered every day He walked this earth to advance the kingdom. He was mocked, ridiculed, and blasphemed everyday. Parents would tell their children to stay away from the bastard child who claimed to cast out devils by the finger of God. Some children, I am pretty sure probably even threw rocks at Him when He would pass by and their parents would condone it. Did Jesus for one moment stop delivering the hurting or healing the sick? No He did not. Yes people marveled at Him but most of the time it was not the kind of marvel we like to think about. Many people marveled who on earth does this man think he is. That is how most of them marveled at Him. So here is the actual Son of God, who is a perfect man without sin,and how many devoted followers did He have to show for His message of repentance, healing, and deliverance after three years. A hundred and twenty in the upper room. Wow! He was the Son of God. He would have been considered a total failure by todays religious standards regardless of the denomination.

            Why do the masses of people find the gospel of religious traditions so much more soothing today, but the masses in Jesus day found His message of repentance, healing, and deliverance so offensive? One of the problems is today’s church teaches a peacekeeping gospel. Oh you better not say that dear brother because that might offend somebody. Christians are not supposed to start any trouble with people because that might offend them. Instead of being offensive let’s just make a truce with the devil. You don’t come in my back yard and I won’t come in yours. Let’s just sit around and worship our Barney Jesus. “I love you and you love me. We are one big happy family”.Let’s just stand around and do our purple dinosaur dance. Meanwhile the devil is just raping and pillaging the children of God and the preachers are just standing by and watching it happen and telling everyone it’s okay guys. Just wait a little longer and we are all going to get raptured out of here. I know you hate your spouse and curse your children. It’s okay if you stir up strife against your neighbor. God knows you can not be perfect. What a joke!No wonder Jesus said it was a broad path that leads to destruction. God have mercy on us! The church has become drunk on her immorality and the blood of the saints. They have devoured the true prophets and teachers. Somebody better start sounding an alarm real quick guys.

            Sorry guys I try not to play favorites, and if I am going to offend one person why not offend everyone. Jesus did. When Jesus came to this earth 2000 years ago, He came to start a war. He was fed up with the devil not only deceiving His people but inhabiting them. He told the religious leaders of His day they where a bunch of worthless snakes. Can you imagine that guys? What on earth would you do if Jesus walked in your church this Sunday and called your pastor a worthless snake, and that he concerns himself with decisions to Christ and by the time your pastor is done with them he makes that new convert twice the son of hell as the pastor. He then points His finger directly at you and tells you unless your righteousness surpasses that of you pastor you will spend a eternity in hell and then walks out of your church. That’s what He did 2000 years ago. The religious leaders of Jesus day where so ate up with murder after that they could not get Him on the cross fast enough. Jesus turned to His disciples and said if you want to inherit the kingdom then follow me boys. Don’t you know his poor disciples where thinking Jesus is going to get us killed. Wow! Can you imagine that. You have got to love the honesty of Peter. When something did not quite compute in his brain he was never afraid to question Jesus. “Jesus would you please explain yourself a little better remember I was simple fisherman when you found me originally. you know the zero with the rim off of it.” I am sure Jesus flesh, that was from His momma, wanted to start over and go pick 12 more many times, but His Spirit, that was His Father’s said know they will figure it out soon enough. Guess what guys. Peter finally did figure it out. So much so that when he would pass by people even his own shadow would heal people. When the religious leaders finally caught up to him he told them he was not worthy to be crucified like his Savior. “Crucify me upside down”.
            Remember Peter’s words to us church? You where called for this purpose. What purpose? to suffer. Suffer like Jesus did. You may say that is not what I signed up for! I want a big house, a car for everyday of the week, a good paying job with lots of benefits and lots of vacation days, season tickets to my favorite sports team so I can watch one of my idols, a big screen high definition whatever, but most importantly I want a great reputation at my church, work, with my family, and my friends. I sure don’t wan’t to do anything that might be perceived as radical or off base. I want to eat the best cuts of meat and where taylor made clothing. I want my burge king religion and I can’t stand jalepenos. Those are just too hot.
            Okay now that everybody is just about ready to stone me I am going stir the ant hill just one more time. Here is what I believe with all my heart about the church. If Jesus himself where to walk into most churches today, (almost all of them)the people in that church starting from the pastor on down would not have a clue who He was because the message of the cross has been so watered down and lifless that know one for the most part is being conformed to the image and likeness of Christ. It is all a bunch of head knowledge and words. People are pretending obedience to God because in their hearts they really hate Him and love their stuff more. I also believe there is but a remnant of true prophets left who will stand up and preach out against sin and rebellion to God, but most of the churches have spurned them or rejected them just like the church rejected Jesus 2000 years ago. It is a sad, sad deal and it breaks my heart.
            Here is one more thing to chew on brothers and sisters. In the book of Daniel it talks about the two witnesses in the last day that are going to prophesy for roughly three and a half years and then it says the beast is finally going to be able to overcome them. It says the world is going to rejoice when these two witnesses are finally slain. They are going to throw a big party. Well boys and girls, that makes it pretty obvious to me that they are going to be preaching a different message than what is taught in most churches today.The world as whole looks at the church today and it’s message like they would a pet dog. It’s cute, its cuddly, and it would not hurt a soul.They obviously have not been introduced to the real Jesus.
            God Bless you all
            Corey

          • “Oh yeah Adam, tomorrow is a new day for you which means 1 x 7 x 7 = 49. The day after tomorrow is when things will start to get interesting for you. A break from this sight is definitely in your best interest. I still will continue to pray that you wake up and repent before it‘s too late.
            To God be the glory forever!
            Corey”

            Hello Corey,
            Well it’s been 3 days since you wrote the above and I have to say THANK YOU! My days have gotten better and better. Things have been running very smoothly for me. It only shows me how weak and powerless all you professed “Prayer warriors” are. You all brag about how great and mighty your deeds are thru Christ and all the amazing stuff you have seen and done but at the end of the day, hot air is still hot air. Maybe it’s true that you sat out to pray and heap cruses on my head for mocking your lifeless corpse godling, the effect of your worthless prayers however have only been to my benefit. You see the Disr have taken your words and turned them to my good. So I am sincere when I say thank you and keep on going. I mean if the best you can do is improve my life thru your actions then please keep at it. The funny thing Corey is that while you have helped me you have hurt the very people you claimed to care about. You spread hate into Timothy’s heart; you changed a reasonable person into a closed minded bigot. It’s what people like you love to do. You are no different than any other monotheistic terrorist. People like you are the reason people kill in the name of Allah or Jesus or Ha shem. The worst part about all of it is that when all the glitz and glamour and your tall tells fade, when the people finally get a real good look at what kind of people your type really are, they tend to be the Catholic priests that like little boys. People like you tend to be the ones that preached so hard against drug use all the while snorting crack in the back room of a whorehouse. You shine all pretty on Sunday morning but come Monday your just trash in a public bathroom trying to get your next fix so you can smile come next church services. Let me tell you, your big claims and “Butt kicking” talk don’t impress me. They make me laugh. You’re a small fish in a vast ocean that you or the others cannot begin to understand. I want you to know something Corey, before it’s too late. Regardless of the small gains Christians have made in third world nations by treachery and trickery, it won’t last. The night approaches for the Church and with it, its death. You see your faith is dying, people such as you are its agonizing screams, its death throes. More and more people see what your faith has to offer and how empty it really is. At least Islam is honest about itself and with itself. The Temples of the Old paths are rising again; Hindu temples exist in AZ and many other states. As the Neo-Pagan movement grows and gains its proper place, the people will come in mass. Church attendances in Europe is very low, except for on stolen holydays like the Winter Solstices, renamed Christmas by lying tongues so long ago. Even in America, one of the most profoundly religious nations on earth, your churches are losing numbers in record making number. Your faith is doomed to failure just like you. If you jump ship now you can still save yourself. However I suspect that you’ll sink like the titanic, hitting rock bottom and have to start again. The evilness of this lie has infected your brain and left you a dullard. Leaving this backward site is a good idea because when I see small minded people like you ruin others who could have found some sort of common ground and peace, it is upsetting. Keep gasping your bible but when you’re brought to your knees along with the likes of a senile Warrior daughter don’t be too surprised, you were warned after all. I should have taken my own advice and left well enough alone but I saw where I had made an error and hoped to extend the preverbal olive branch. That was a mistake on my part. You have to find sane people to make friends and find a middle ground with. You Corey and the minority like you are not sane. Many in the Anglican Church and other moderate Christians are a better place to start an interfaith dialogue with. Your time to sow hate is coming to an end soon, but beware because you’re going to reap the destruction that has grown up around your labor. At least I can go with a clear mind that I tried to fix my own wrongs and find a common ground. It was rejected so now you can have your just reward. I’m out of here.
            Adam

          • warrior daughter says:

            The only reason you are on this site is to spread lies, discord, and to cause people to question Truth….I am not senile even though I told you I was old enough to be your mother but then you might just be older than what I think….Your attacks on people is horredous but we know that the armour of God is more powerful than any of the attacks that you love to use….You are a tool of Satan and you will be discarded by Satan when you are no longer needed….Your gods will turn and attack you and you will wonder why….They have not one ounce of love for you are your well being…Your whole ploy was to have friendship and that friendship would have caused others to be sucked into the darkness from whence you come….It will be you who will be on your knees before the King of Kings and you have to give an account of all the treachery you have endorsed…Remember this, as long as you have breath within, God will eagerly accept you when you repent of your evilness…When the breath is gone from your body it is too late and you will not find Vahalla but only what you have embraced in this lifetime and that is evilness…. I will no longer respond to your baits and others too will recognize the baited hook that is full of rotteness that you are trying to spread here……..

          • Warrior daughter,
            I owe you an apology. I was wrong to resort to name calling. I like everyone else am a flawed human being. I’ll answer the rest of your post later but this is the most important thing that I can say to you! I AM SORRY!

          • horns4plenty says:

            I am still praying for your salvation Adam, and I will continue to pray against the foolishness and lies you have chosen to put your faith and trust, because as long as those voices are still allowed to operate in your life and you choose to listen then you will never truly see the Love that Jesus Christ has for you on the Cross so might be saved. He did not say you will be saved but that you might be saved, and He has directing me everyday how to pray and intercede on your behalf.

            Adam I can not thank you enough for the way you have spoken against me. The more evil you speak against me and my Lord and savior that I serve, the more you are enabling the power of God to operate in my life. I try operate in the spiritual realm everyday that God gives me to breath on this earth. God shows me a little more everyday how to operate in His kingdom and bring His kingdom to this earth. You claim the church and the faith of the church is dying, but I have gotten to witness that it is growing not only in power but faith. I am so thankful and honored that God has allowed me to play a small part in the destruction of the works of the devil.

            One of the hardest things for me to learn when I started down the road of spiritual warfare was to hate the sin but love the sinner. It is a very hard thing for I think most Christians and in Christianity in general. I know for many years as a Christian I hated the sinner, but oh how I loved the sin operating in my life. But when God began to show me that there was a spiritual reason or entity operating in my life that was not only promoting the sin in my life but making me love the sin in my life, and when God also began to reveal to me that the purpose of the powers of darkness in my life was to deceive me so they could take me to hell with them. When I chose to listen to their voices and obey their lies then they became my master and not Jesus and they where accomplishing that task in my life. I was not loving the actual sin in my life such as, outburst of anger, lust, or greed, but in actuality, I was loving the demon behind it. That is how we become slaves to sin and then a evil task master becomes our Lord instead of Jesus. The Lord then began to reveal to me that is how we try and partake of the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. Which made it perfectly clear that this was impossible and James, the half brother of Jesus, in James chapter 3 addressed this issue saying that when from the same mouth comes forth both blessings and curses, this ought not to be, and that the tongue had the power to set our whole body on a course for hell. When I started to see all of this, it reversed my way of thinking where I had been deceived many years even as a professing Christian. This revelation set me free. Jesus then began to change my heart and I then began to develop a love for the sinner like never before. My heart just began to break for the lost and dying and I began to loathe and hate the sin as well as the powers of darkness promoting it. This started a chain reaction in my heart and I then began to develop and a love for Jesus that was as real as the love I was getting for the sinner. I began to meditate more and more on God’s word and God showed me that His law for us where created so we could walk in love towards one another. The more that I knew God’s word, then the more I could fulfill God’s perfect law of love in my life. God began to reveal to me I had lived my entire Christian exactly opposite of how I was suppose to. I knew the bible said we where suppose to love God with all our hearts and thought if I could just figure that part out first it would fix everything else and I would love the my neighbor as myself. I lived my Christian life miserable for almost twenty years because I knew I did not love God with all my heart and I did not think He loved me either because I was ate up with sin, and I knew God hated sin so therefore I thought He hated me.

            When we come to Jesus for the first time and we realize that we are a sinner we are suppose to be a new creation and we are suppose to do away with our old way of life. We are suppose to destroy the works of the devil in our lives but how on earth are we ever going to destroy the works of the devil if we don’t destroy the devil that it I operating in our lives. That does not mean to make a peace treaty with the devil and tell him to go away now and don’t bother me anymore because I am Christian now and I am not suppose to do bad things anymore so go bother somebody else. We will never be able to walk out our salvation in this lifetime and become that pure spotless bride if that is how we try and do it. You have to kill the demon. That is why the Lord says the violent take the kingdom by force. What kingdom was He talking about . He was talking about the kingdom of heaven. Adam when first God showed me this I was so excited I called my earthly father who had been a trail blazer in the deliverance ministry and had been doing it for many years and is respected by many to be a expert in the field of deliverance and people from all over the world have sought my dad out to pray over them over demonic oppression and spiritual bondage. I know my dad to some degree thought I had lost my mind a little bit and definitely thought I was off base a little. I have definitely have become accustomed to people thinking I am a little loose in the head, so I went back to God in prayer and said you would have to confirm this to me out of God’s word so I knew this had come from Him because I was already having a little doubt I was hearing God right here and after talking to my dad I was having a little more doubt and I knew that if in fact I was hearing God here then Satan would stop at nothing to try and steal this word from me just Like every other time God has given me some revelation out of His word. When God to speak to me about killing a demon I was having some thoughts like now that seems a little hard core and nothing I have ever been taught in the church and I definitely do not recall seeing anything like that in the bible. You are going to have to show me that in the Bible and then you are going to have show me how on earth I am ever going to kill a devil because I am only a sinner saved by grace. I know your word says that we will have authority to tread over serpents and scorpions but this is way more radical and over the top and don‘t even remember when Jesus himself when casting out demons said anything about destruction.
            The first place God took me was to Matthew 17:15 and let me set the stage for you. Jesus and His disciples had both been out preaching and teaching the gospel and while some of his disciples had been out ministering and praying for people a man had approached them and had asked them to pray for his son. The disciples had begun to pray for this boy and had tried to cast the demons out of him and nothing had happened. This man instead of giving up and saying there is no hope for my son went to seek out Jesus. It looks like this man had quite a bit of faith operating in him and he was definitely believing in the message of healing and deliverance to some degree because he was certainly not given up. I know many years ago in my if I had been that man after his disciples would have prayed for my son and nothing happened I would have begun to doubt the message of deliverance and healing, or I might have gotten a little angry at God, thinking something like you answered other peoples prayers, but you won‘t answer mine. Am I not good enough for you God? Do you not love me God? So because you are mad at me you are just going to let my son die? But guess what? This man did not do that. Instead of going home and giving up he pressed on trying to seek out this Jesus fellow. So the stage is set starting in verse 15: Lord, have mercy on my son, he is a lunatic. Man I know exactly how this man’s son must have felt because he is very ill; for he often falls in the fire and often into the water. You know that almost sounds like this boy had a demon promoting depression and suicide in him huh? Man oh man, I have been there before! 16: And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not cure him. 17: and Jesus answered and said, Oh unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring Him here to me. 18: And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him at once, and the boy was cured. You know something I am thinking about here is Jesus when it came to deliverance and healing, he was always doing things different. One time He might tell a demon or demons to come out, another time He gave demons permission to go into the swine, which we will cover later in detail just for you Adam, since you are so offended and hurt for the well being of those poor pigs, and have tried to condemn Jesus for animal cruelty. Dude what goes through that little brain of yours. One time He might have just laid hands on someone, another time He gave demons instructions to come out and due know harm, another time He spit in the mud and made mudballs and then put it into someone eyes. Another time He just spit directly into some one’s eyes, probably to mock back at the demons causing the blindness and he was spitting his DNA directly onto this man and the demons.

            I wonder what the DNA of Christ does when it touches a demon directly. I am just thinking out loud here. Could it be that when Christ DNA comes in direct contact with a demon it brings instant death to a demon. At this time I can not deny that or prove that so it is just a hypothesis I might want to put a little research into that later. Or maybe since you pride yourself so much on knowing God’s word so well so you can try to cause doubt or strife among believers and promote your agenda. What goes through your brain on that subject matter so I might see a little of Satan’s tactics on this subject matter on how he might try and deceive us as believers.

            Anyway back to Matthew 17 starting in verse 19: then the disciples came to Jesus privately saying why could we not cast it out? 20: and He said to them, because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, move from here to there, and it shall move; and nothing shall be impossible to you, 21: but this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting. Now my Bible just said nothing shall be impossible to me on the subject of spiritual warfare and deliverance, so if God wants us as believers to destroy the works of the devil operating in our life and therefore destroy the devil in order to make that happen. Jesus has made it perfectly clear right here and confirmed that it would be possible but does not confirm we are to kill the devil here. How? As long as we have the faith as a grain of a mustard seed. Let’s go on Adam.

            Turn to Mark 11:14 and again I will set the stage for Adam. Jesus has become hungry and sees a fig tree in leaf and walks over to it to see if perhaps it had any figs for him to eat. Jesus finds no figs and in verse 14: And He answered and said to it, may no one ever eat fruit from you again and his disciples were listening.

            Now Adam, I know this is going to be a difficult thing for you to try and wrap your hands around so before the noisy traffic in your head starts screaming; Jesus was a tree killer and hated mother nature or whatever else type of garbage you might be hearing in your head. I am going to warn you in advance that Jesus is about to make a point to his disciples and has started a lab class to verify what Jesus taught and is about to use the tree to make a point.

            Skip down to verse 20: and passing by the next morning, they saw a fig tree withered from the roots up. To put that in simple terms that means the tree was dead. 21: And being reminded, Peter said to Him, Rabbi, behold the fig tree which you cursed is withered. 22: and Jesus answered saying to them, Have faith in God. Truly I say to you whoever says to this mountain, Be taken up and cast into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it shall be granted to him. Okay now it is starting to get interesting. Before when Jesus was speaking specifically on deliverance he said you will say to this mountain move and it will move. Here Jesus has just killed a tree and now He tells us if we say to the mountain pick yourself up and be cast into the sea. And He is using the death of the tree as the reason to make this point. So in other words the dead tree and a mountain picking itself up and being cast into the sea are the same thing.

            Now lets look at Revelation 21:8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death. Now God is addressing a lake here that causes death. The second death actually, where before he was talking about a sea that kills mountains. This lake and sea sound pretty much just like each other.

            Now lets look at Mark chapter 1 and Jesus has just come out of the wilderness after he was tested and tempted by the devil for forty days and the first the first synagogue He comes to He goes into and begins to teach. Starting in 23: and just then there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, 24: saying, what do we have to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are the Holy one of God! It is real interesting to me right here there was a real concern here voiced by this demonic spirit that was wondering if Jesus was about to destroy them. Them signifies plural which means more than one, but when the demon says I know who you are that is singular representing one was speaking on behalf of all of them. Perhaps the strong man. I am not going to address the strong man issue here. I am addressing this demon was fearful and new that Jesus had the power to destroy them and was concerned that this might be the day.

            Now lets go to Matthew 8 and look at one of my favorite deliverances, but before we do that what did Jesus say would happen to us if we tried to save our own life? Jesus taught us that if we save our life we will lose it, but if we lose our life for the sake of Christ then we will gain it or live. Now during this deliverance you have some demons that are going to try and save their life and let’s look at what happens, but for laughs and giggles I am going to set the stage for you again. Always when Jesus taught the word He would always hold a lab or have test. Jesus had just preached to the multitudes on the other side. During this time He taught about the parable of the sower and the seed which I know because of Mark 4 and 5 where Mark is telling same story. Jesus said when the word goes out Satan will try and steal the word. After that He gets into a boat with His disciples and proceeds to the other side so now it’s time to test the words He taught and see if the disciples received the word and can pass the test, and while this test is happening Jesus decides to catch up on some sleep and proceeds to fall asleep on the boat. Now a demonic storm rises up and starts to rage against the boat and the disciples are starting to fear for their life here. The devil is coming against them trying to steal the word from them like the parable of the sower and the seed and the disciples are starting to by into what this storm is telling them. This storm is telling them I am going to kill you and there is nothing or your little Jesus can do about it because we have ambushed you while Jesus is asleep. If your Jesus really cared for you He would not have fallen asleep and let you perish. Now look at Matthew 8: 25, and they came to Him, saying save us Lord; we are perishing! 26: and He said why are you timid, you men of little faith? Why are you timid, you men of little faith? Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and it became perfectly calm. 27: And the men marveled, saying, what kind of a man is this, that ven the winds and the sea obey Him? 28 And when He had come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who where demon possessed met Him as they where coming out of the tombs; they where so exceedingly violent that no one could pass by that road. 29: And behold they cried out, saying what do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have you come to torment us before the time?

            I cracks me up right here, that here are a thousand demons and they are a little scared that Jesus is about to start tormenting them. It is one against a thousand and the demons are scared to death and are looking for a escape route. These demons had probably been terrorising people for years on that road and they see this group of men passing by and they jump out to attack these men who are stupid enough to pass to close to them. As they jump out to attack this group of men they instantly recognize Jesus and realize they have just messed up big time. They obviously new that when demons came face to face with Jesus that only bad things could happen, and so they cry out to Jesus have you come to torment us. Now look at verse 30: Now there was at a distance from them a herd of many swine feeding. 31: And the demons began to entreat him, which means beg Him, saying if you are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine. In other words they where scared poop-less that Jesus was about to send them to someplace different. I wonder what place they where so fearful of? Lets look at 8:31 and see this same story told by Luke. 31: they where entreating Him not to command them to depart to the abyss. 32: Now there was a herd of swine feeding their on the side of the mountain; and the demons entreated Him to permit them to enter the swine, and Jesus gave them permission. Now look at that the pigs had to ask Jesus permission before they could even enter the pigs. This again proves that demons can do nothing that Jesus does not first permit them to do including torment or inhabit a person. Now as soon as Jesus gave these demons permission these terrified demons ran for their life. They jumped into these pigs to escape being cast into the abyss and then terrorized these pigs to take off and get as far away from there as fast as possible. Can you imagine the relief these demons started to feel. We just out smarted the Son of God and e have escaped with our lives. Then can you imagine their fear when they realized a little to late they had terrorised these pigs so bad they drove them off the cliff to commit sooie-side. These pigs when they jumped down a steep bank and drowned themselves in the lake. To me this is so comical to me that the demons where trying to save their life and avoid the abyss which just so happens to be another term for the bottomless pit or the lake of fire and guess where the demons ended up? They ended up in the Abyss when the pigs drowned in the lake which is symbolic of the lake of fire.

            You know what else is interesting about this story in Matthew, Mark and Luke. There is no mention of this man requesting of Jesus to have these demons cast out of Him and yet Jesus did it anyway. That was the day Jesus made it perfectly clear to the demons He had come to pick a fight and start a war and set the kingdom of heaven up on earth as it was in heaven. The earth had previously up to this point had been Satan’s playground and he had not been challenged a whole lot after he had managed to put the prophets to death, but now the demons where seeing that Jesus could do pretty much what he wanted concerning them and now He was teaching His disciples the same war tactics. That was the day that changed demons thinking forever. The other demons that where nearby that day and saw this all happen realized then that there was no place they could possibly go on this earth that Jesus could not destroy them if He chose to do so, but then Jesus went to the cross and was killed then went back to heaven and Satan persecuted the disciples with everything he could throw against them and managed to overcome them and kill them. Satan was not scared in the least of religion or religious traditions knowing they where powerless to stop the powers of darkness, and the earth for the passed 2000 years has been turning into the devils playground again. Religious traditions have not taught the warfare that Jesus started that not only could destroy the works of the devil but could destroy the devil doing the works, because that is how you truly destroy His works. Now again we near the second coming of Christ and Jesus has sent the Spirit of Elijah and I believe also Moses back into the earth to raise up true prophets and disciples again. The prophets are going to teach the people of God again how to destroy the powers of darkness. Because Christ has given us authority over unclean spirits we can not only cast out these evil spirits but we can command them to go before the feet of Jesus for judgment. Those demons have to obey the authority we have. Jesus is the one who judges every man and every spirit according to its works. Demons do not have the same judgment timeline that we have. There are many demons that have already been cast into the lake of fire.

            There are for different levels of spirits in Satan’s Kingdom and God has a different techniques we use for us as believers to engage them and utterly destroy them. Everything I am talking about here with You I have witnessed and used in spiritual warfare many times and some techniques I have used hundreds and hundreds of times. I have probably 15 more scriptures that I could take you to showing that disciples and followers of Christ are suppose to destroy the devil therefore destroying completely the works of the devil completely operating in a person’s life. God has taught me how to reach out in warfare if necessary to touch a spirit completely on the other side of the world if I know it is there and operating in a particular person‘s life, and you have been so kind as to tell me about two specifically that are present in your life. I don’t have to know it’s exact location. This is all done through prayer and seeking God as to what His will is in the matter. Here is one thing I know for certain about Jesus desire concerning demons. He is not desiring that one evil spirit should be forgiven and He will not hesitate one little bit when a believer comes to Him in faith requesting for or calling for the complete and utter destruction of a demonic entity. Especially when that believer knows that particular entity is getting in the way of a person’s salvation that believer is praying for.

            So Adam I find it very funny when you want to try and convince me God does not answer prayers or God can not affect your life in any way when I know for a fact you are lying through your teeth. Especially when God has specifically told me what is happening in your life and how it is affecting everyone associated to you; then He is telling me what to pray for next. When you got so over confident and began to expose the entities you where being deceived by it gave me an open door in the spiritual realm of what to pray for and make a stand against. I know as long as you remain stubborn and rebellious and completely defiant to the Lord then nothing you post on this website can be believed as truth. God could allow both of your legs to be removed and you would still claim to be faster than a speeding bullet. You are going to know for a fact the God I serve is the only true God one way or the other, and Jesus is the final judge and He holds the keys now to death, hell, and the grave as well as the keys to the kingdom of heaven and He gives all of us our own free will to chose whether we love our fleshly desires more which only satisfy for a season and leads to eternal torment or whether we love Jesus more which will bring eternal satisfaction and joy unspeakable. Adam the ball is in your court and you have to choose.

            Hey at least now every time you want to make a silly comment it affords me the opportunity to begin to teach everyone who comes to this website a little more about spiritual warfare.

            Corey

          • warrior daughter says:

            The gods have not deemed otherwise as you say in this Latin proverb but it God yes God the Father of all who deems otherwise….These demons have seduced you into thinking they are gods but they know their time is short and they will be cast into the firey lake of fire and they want to take you along but God has deemed otherwise and wants you to repent and become His beloved child…All of your wisdom is earthly wisdom and it will destroy you….

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Adam:
            I have seen you here before, but never commented. but tonight I will.
            I hold no animosity towards you personally, I fully understand that you think you are in control, but your not. You are being deceived into thinking you have it all figured out but again you don’t.
            I don’t want to harp on your beliefs, or for that matter even debate them.
            I feel you should know that I personally, am offended by your presence here.
            You have nothing to add to any conversation that could ever possibly take place on this site, (EXCEPT) the telling of your salvation, your conversion, your coming to the only wise and true God!
            I will close now by saying I wish you no ill will, but what things Cory has said, I agree with, and I agree with
            Him in prayer for you immortal soul.

            1 Corinthians 1:18
            For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

            JIM

          • Well at least you don’t want to murder me and you seem to be honest.
            Adam j.

          • JustAGuy says:
            I don’t come to you with words of death and lifelessness; I don’t come to you and say… “It’s my Gods way or the grave for you.” I come to you with words of friendship and hope; of life, saying that we don’t have to agree on everything to live on earth as adult Human beings that can find a way to make our world better. Tell me, how is that so wrong?

            Adam,

            Can you place the north end of a magnet on the north end of another magnet? Try it over and over with as much force as you like — it will never happen. You have extended the hand of friendship to me, which is nice, but friends we must always be from a distance because the gods you espouse are at war with the God who created them perfect once upon a time before they listened to the father of lies and rebelled. You have spirits indwelling you that dare not allow you to accept Jesus Christ for who He truly is. I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me who warns me of the danger of fellowship with devils, and I must heed that warning. As long as you promote demon gods, you cannot truly be soul friends with Christians. The devil would use that as a lure to get innocent Christians to feel evil for not loving you by befriending you. What fellowship has light with darkness? Can we be partakers of God and partakers of the table of devils? God forbid!

            We are not here on this forum to jump into paganism and be friends who perish together. We are here to help you make the leap from paganism to the truth before it is too late for you that we might live together forever. In doing that, we are being the very best friends to you that you could possibly have! May the Lord, who has brought us all to repentance to the acknowledging of the truth also bring you to repentance likewise. I can love and respect your right to choose your path, which I do. I cannot agree to follow, and I am sure you respect that as well.

            Timothy

          • Timothy,
            Have you ever heard of Twilight (not the movie)? Besides I don’t know about you but I am of the light. The thing is this; we are both humans, not magnets. If you choose to reject the hand of friendship it’s your own doing. Not because you are forced to. I don’t want you to become Pagan, I want to find area’s that we as two people can find common ground on in faith while still agreeing to disagree. I want this in order to help make our world better. If that’s something you don’t want then it’s sad but you’re a free person who can do what they feel is best. I do accept your right to be Christian; I have fought against people who want to make you Muslim. I hope there is room in your heart for peace because I am not out to trick you. I have told you in all honesty and even bluntly so what my beliefs are and why I am here. Do you think I have lied to you? Do you think that I want to convert you? I don’t. I only want to learn to live on the same planet as friends or at least not as enemies. Is that so much to ask? If you speak to me again that would be great, if not well I can’t change that but I hope you will.
            May your days be full of blessings.
            Adam J.

          • JustAGuy says:

            .

          • JustAGuy says:

            Adam,

            GOOD NEWS! Your wish (“I only want to learn to live on the same planet as friends or at least not as enemies.”) is one I seek to help you with. You wouldn’t tolerate me saying bad things about your wife, nor I tolerate you saying bad things about mine, so as a friend would, I ask that you not speak evil of my God again in my Christian forums and I will refrain from speaking evil of your pagan gods on your pagan forums. Agreed?

            Bottom line is, you can learn to act as a friend right now. Friends respect each others choices and wishes and certainly do not speak badly about each other’s spouses, not to mention the God they serve and love. If you choose to accept the most basic rules of friendship, your expressed desire to “learn” and live as friends will come true. It is your decision.

            The reality is that your stated desire is bogus and founded upon a fantasy. If you were to apply the basic tenants of friendship by respecting the ones I love and hold dear, you would find you have nothing to say to me that you really wish to say.

            The fact is that as a Christian, I am not your enemy. I do not seek your harm, nor shall I. God has given you free choice, and I respect that. “It is appointed unto men once to die and after this, the judgment.” If friends don’t let friends drive drunk, neither do they let friends go through life on the wrong road merrily waving when they know their friend is about to drive in the night over a bridge that has washed out.

            May you turn your life around before it meets with the inevitable consequences of your choices. The gods do not love you, they are merely using you for their own selfish desires.

            Sometimes being a friend to someone does not look like being a friend at the time.

            Timothy

            PS – I have amended my earlier post saying I am friends with you because it does not bear witness in my heart. I do not share any soul ties with you Adam. I am acting as a friend to you because your life matters. But in your condition, I cannot be a friend with you, because my life matters.

          • It’s a shame you allowed Corey to spread hate and discord…this is the same sort of “My way or else” that had kept the killing going on in the Middle east. But as I said it was always up to you. Many said that trying to befrined a Christain was pointless, they will only turn bitter and hateful. I guess they were right. Maybe you are right after all. Maybe we can’t be frineds because of your faith. Maybe when the Christain faith dies (as it will in due time) people can live in peace.
            Regardless, I still wish you a long and healthy life.
            Adam.

          • warrior daughter says:

            Quoting Latin does not make it right….This is a Latin proverb and it basically says they condemn what they do not understand……
            It is you who condems what you do not understand….

          • Very Good, you read it right….even if your wrong.

          • Gods sunflower says:

            And my sister that is the truth and nothing but the truth.

            God bless you sister.

          • JustAGuy says:

            Hi Adam, I realize I am writing to a practicing pagan and that your thoughts are from that perspective. I do believe that it is God’s place, not mine, to be affronted by them. You know that too and you believe your gods are greater than mine – so it is not like I am trying to threaten you with that statement. I just want to address a few point you made.

            Our judicial system is only partly based of The Bible, many of our laws and ideas come from classical Pagan laws and ideals. Most of our Governmental infrastructure came from Pagan Rome and Greece.

            You would be correct on that. Our government is indeed a mixture since only God’s Kingdom is purely Christian at its core. It is troubling to me that Masonry is entwined and that involves the worship of devils and the rituals and rites going back to the days of Nimrod and Semiramis (Eastern Stars) who built not only the Tower of Babel, but great cities. I know they teach it refers to Hiram Abiff of Solomon’s times, but the greatness attributed to this Hiram align with the greatness of Nimrod, so I believe Nimrod as the genesis of it.

            I do disagree with your statements on the Occult. The study of Occult knowledge or practices is neither negative nor open people up to any of the things you mentioned. The Gods were not created by your god; rather (from my point of view) The Jewish God is a rebellious child deity that has broken away from the larger family of Gods. This deity took a rabble rousing pack of tribal/ bronze aged humans and fed them a line, which they ate up. From my perspective Christians’ have been taken by the same line, only they are worse off because they worship one of his followers and not even the God its self.

            I have to agree with my statements on the Occult because I have proven them as fact according to the definitions even you gave Warrior Daughter. My wife was extremely ill for over 6 years with a condition. During that time we sought out remedies, many of them alternative ones that we at the time did not know came from eastern religions. During the course of those years we would see that when we applied a method or remedy, we would see improvement. Yet, if one were to graph my wife’s health, it was on an overall downward trajectory. We were thankful that as desperate as things got, “just think how bad it would be if we DIDN’T do these things?”

            One night we read “Blessings or Curse, You can Choose” by Derek Prince http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_7_8?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=blessings+and+curses+by+derek+prince&sprefix=blessing

            We were convicted that the remedies we relied upon that were listed as occultic needed to GO! We were told there was an evil power that comes with occultism. It gives with one hand and takes away even more with the other. In obedience to the God you speak of as evil, we kicked out the gods you speak of as good. The very day the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the risen Son of God, spoke very clearly in my wife’s prayer time, telling her to “Rise and walk.” With those words came the meaning. She obeyed the Lord and was set free of a number of crippling diseases. Now, almost 13 years later, she still relies on zero medical aid for those conditions and is as healthy as if she never were sick.

            We applied the Word of God to purge all evil and false gods from my life, and we saw instant liberty, according to the Word of God, the Bible. Since then we have shared on numerous occasions the need for people to renounce all involvement with false gods and to seek deliverance where needed. In administering deliverance we have had people come to us in torments of emotional distress, fears, etc. and in physical distresses. They renounce occultism in many of the forms that Michael has listed, they surrender those areas to the covering of Jesus Christ, and they too are set free and healed. I witness the cloudiness, or sometimes vacancy, or anguish, or countenance lift and be replaced by a light of joy, and hope and revival of spirit and soul. I watch over the months and see they are either walking in victory in Jesus and these things remain and grow stronger, or they are double minded and the torment remains in part or in whole.

            These are the proofs of my own application of the Bible into practical living. I cannot deny them. Readers can read Our Story at http://www.PerfectingLove.com/ourstory, it will describe it a bit more fully.

            Thank you for allowing me to express these facts candidly, even as I have received yours. I felt I needed to give you the basis for my assertion as you were unable to receive the assertion at face value. On another note, this “rebellious child deity” seems to have extraordinary power over the larger family of Gods, as He historically has systematically defied them AND defeated them in the times and places of His choosing. I think of all the gods of Egypt who could not use advantage of the might and power of the Egyptian Pharoah and all his magicians to hold a captive family captive. This same “rebellious child god” gave dreams to Nebuchadnezzar and dared to tell him how the remainder of empires would unfold, (as though, imagine that, he had the ability to make it unfold until the coming of this rebellious child god in the “Last days” when he would crush the remaining pagan nations underfoot and establish the throne under Jesus Christ forever and ever). It is amazing that this rebellious child god gave a dream of a statue of gold, silver, bronze, iron, and iron and clay – and more amazing that the Babylonian Empire, was succeeded by they Persian empire (silver chest and arms), then the Greek empire (bronze mid-section), then the Roman Empire (two legs of iron – imagine that the Roman Empire split into East and West hundreds of years after the resurrection of the rebellious child god that foretold it). Today we live in the days of the remnants of the Roman Empire. Nations strong and weak, iron and clay, united by treaty occupy the territory of the ancient Roman empire in the name of the European Union.

            These are the kinds of things I personally take as “proofs” that the God I serve is God. And these are the proofs that people like Warrior Daughter also receive as valid. I imagine you have your own ‘proofs’ of your paganism’s authenticity, so I will leave you with those. I cannot imagine anything better than the peace and happiness I already possess, so I choose to serve Jesus Christ.

            Again, thank you for your courteous and thought provoking replies.

            Blessings and Peace,
            Timothy

          • Hello Timothy,
            It’s nice to hear from you again. I am not taking anything you write personally or as a threat. You appear to be a Christian man who loves his faith and is loyal. Loyalty is a good quality in people. I am enjoying our conversation. I think we both know where the other stands but can talk all the same. It’s one of the great things about being an American. Let me start out with saying that I am so happy your wife is well. It’s hard when we as husbands have to watch the love of our lives suffer with an illness. It is a joy to have them healthy and at our side. I am glad your wife is well and at your side. I have not yet read your story in full but I will do that soon. Today my time is kind of short… life marches ever on. I however did read this post and enjoyed doing so. You are a well written person, who even while disagreeing with me shows a spirit of humility and graces. “You shall know them by the fruits of their labor…” is that not how the bible puts it? I may be slightly off but I think close enough so that you know to what I am referring to. At any rate I believe you to be a good human being. I’d like to reply to some of your statements.

            Timothy:
            We were convicted that the remedies we relied upon that were listed as occultic needed to GO! We were told there was an evil power that comes with occultism. It gives with one hand and takes away even more with the other. In obedience to the God you speak of as evil, we kicked out the gods you speak of as good. The very day the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the risen Son of God, spoke very clearly in my wife’s prayer time, telling her to “Rise and walk.” With those words came the meaning. She obeyed the Lord and was set free of a number of crippling diseases. Now, almost 13 years later, she still relies on zero medical aid for those conditions and is as healthy as if she never were sick.

            Adam:
            Many Pagans who were deathly sick as Christians or Jews or Muslims were completely healed after praying to the Gods and Goddesses. It too was as if they’d never been sick. Sometimes this is an act of the deities or the person’s ancestors or personal Disr. When I was about 16 there was a man by the name of “Brother” Stuart that had attended our church for some years. He was a meek and gentle man, a man that labored hard to provide for his family and loved them very much. He paid his tithes and offerings, lived his life according to the bible. Then he got very sick with cancer. A sickness that just months before had killed my own 53 year old Grandfather. He depended on the bible and Jesus, did all that he was supposed to do according. His wife seeing the illness progress faster decided that she could not watch him die so she left him and moved away. He was broken and yet he said (I heard him say it myself) “Not my will but your will be done.” Brother Stuart was sure that Jesus could do no less for him than he had done for Job. Prayers went out; people gave prophecy of his healing. Towards the end of 1996 the so called “Man of god” walked down past the pews and stood before Stuart and said “THUS SAYTH THE LORD, RISE AND WALK FOR THOU ART HEALED” It was all very dramatic. Stuart stood from his wheel chair and walked. He even seemed to get better, his health began to get better and soon it was as if he was healed. Then 2 weeks late he died in his shower, alone. They found him with the water still running. It turns out his supposed health had been the calm before the finial storm of caner that killed him. He was only 40 years old

            Timothy:
            On another note, this “rebellious child deity” seems to have extraordinary power over the larger family of Gods, as He historically has systematically defied them AND defeated them in the times and places of His choosing. I think of all the gods of Egypt who could not use advantage of the might and power of the Egyptian Pharoah and all his magicians to hold a captive family captive. This same “rebellious child god” gave dreams to Nebuchadnezzar and dared to tell him how the remainder of empires would unfold, (as though, imagine that, he had the ability to make it unfold until the coming of this rebellious child god in the “Last days” when he would crush the remaining pagan nations underfoot and establish the throne under Jesus Christ forever and ever). It is amazing that this rebellious child god gave a dream of a statue of gold, silver, bronze, iron, and iron and clay – and more amazing that the Babylonian Empire, was succeeded by they Persian empire (silver chest and arms), then the Greek empire (bronze mid-section), then the Roman Empire (two legs of iron – imagine that the Roman Empire split into East and West hundreds of years after the resurrection of the rebellious child god that foretold it). Today we live in the days of the remnants of the Roman Empire. Nations strong and weak, iron and clay, united by treaty occupy the territory of the ancient Roman empire in the name of the European Union.

            Adam:
            Christianity’s spread had nothing to do with Jesus defeating the Old Gods. It had everything to do with murder, trickery and greed. The Gods gave us all free will and a mind with which to reason. So our ancestors built technological wonders, many of which we would consider “modern”. They fought over land and money and other such things but religious faith was left up to the individual. This freedom of religion by default allowed the early Christians to preach to the slave (The bible dose not condemn slavery at all, in fact in instructs the slave to obey his master.) and the uneducated. It let them use money and food to convert the smallest of the people. Then when the movement had gained a stronger foot hold in the Empire it began to grow bold and seek out other more learned men. This is when men such as Porphyry wrote his work Adversus Christianos. It was so devastating a denouement of the newer faith that later popes had it burned repeatedly because they could not refute it. Now we have only scraps left. Later when the Christians got to the Emperor Constantine (a brutal killer who saw how advantageous it would be to have one faith to support him and his government) they used the force of the sword and the might of the legions; to forcibly convert Pagans to the new faith, convert or die and watch your families suffer before you do. That tended to be a very effective conversion tool. That is how the majority of ancient Paganism was suppressed. By force of arms, money and trickery but it was not a complete success. For the holy days of our Pagan ancestors still thrive, we still bring in trees to our homes on December 25th. We still celebrate May Day and Easter along with so many others. Their meaning have been changed or diluted but the symbols of our ancestral faith still walk with us. Even now the Phoenix raises from the ashes to it glory. Paganism in being reborn and growing fast, some forms of it have lived on from thousands of years ago. Hinduism, Shinto and others are some good examples. I know a man who was living in Sudan and his family was threatened with slaughter by the Muslims of his region if his family did not convert. They killed three of his brothers. His father was already dead. Then comes along the Christians missionaries and tells them that if they convert to Christianity, they will be given money and a way to the United States, if not then they can’t help them. The last reaming son accepts their offer. Why? He says he was afraid to stay. The mother with her own father and grandchildren refuse. The son is baptized and sent to Phoenix, AZ. The mother, Grandfather and grandchildren are left in Sudan. They fled into the forests and trusted in their faith. Reports have come thru that they are alive and well, that they even thrive while many of their converted Muslim and Christian former neighbors rely on hand out to survive the days. Forgive me but these things do not sound like the acts of an “all powerful god.” They are the acts of another sort god. Is this the power of Jesus? You see History clearly shows that before Christianity the world was advancing technologically at a rapid rate. When Christianity took over the world feel in to the dark ages and we languished for ages. Now that Christianity is losing its death grip over the world, we are growing again. We are still off kilter but we are slowly regaining balances. I just don’t see the so called power of Jesus. I see the guile of his past and in some cases present followers.

            Timothy:
            These are the kinds of things I personally take as “proofs” that the God I serve is God. And these are the proofs that people like Warrior Daughter also receive as valid. I imagine you have your own ‘proofs’ of your paganism’s authenticity, so I will leave you with those. I cannot imagine anything better than the peace and happiness I already possess, so I choose to serve Jesus Christ.

            Adams:
            You are right there are many “Proofs” that I take to authenticate both Paleo and Neo-Paganism. I too was Christian for a long time. When I left it I sought out Judaism, went thru the classes, learned Hebrew, and studied with an Orthodox Rabbi, who is still a very good friend of mine. I began to keep Kosher. Judaism was more coherent than my former faith. Just as I came to the end of my studies something changed inside me and I discovered the Gods. I became a Pagan. I have and still am growing but I held on to some “left over’s” from my Christian days. One of which was trying to convert people. I was misguided. I realize now that it’s not my right to convert anyone. I’ll only be guilty of what the Church has been guilty of. I don’t want that. So I no longer seek to “SAVE” Christians. It doesn’t work anyway. If they are going to change it has to happen in the heart and no amount of logical well reasoned arguments I give will do any good. Now I just enjoy the debate and building bonds of civility and maybe along the way friendships. Polytheist and Monotheists can get along without killing each other and should. So Timothy I just want you to know that I am not out to change your mind. I would like to build a bridge between us and all of you, maybe even more importantly a bridge of friendship between me and you. You can have Jesus and I’ll Keep Odin, Thor and the rest. And in the intern we can have fun debating healthily. I am glad that you are happy. I hope you enjoyed your church service today. I should go now, I have run out of time. Best wishes to you and yours,
            Adam J-

          • jesseedavis says:

            I hope you guys don’t mind me saying a couple of things real quick. I’ll try to be quick and to the point.

            Adam, a lot of your views on Christianity is based on the history of “professing” Christians. Using history is not a problem, however the problem is that you see no difference between those who follow Christ and those that profess to be Christians. We are all one in the same and so therefore represent the same faith.

            A bigger problem than this is that those that do follow Christ have to live with the reputation that these people create. Adam, if I was professed to be a pagan, and made it known that I was pagan, yet all the while did whatever I wanted such as raping women, selling drugs for money, killing people that got in the way, or whatever I did for whatever reason, then would I be a very good representation of pagans and their beliefs? No, however people in general will not care enough to separate the two. This Adam is what you are showing in your posts. You are showing that someone who professes Christ yet goes around killing and raping and stealing and raging war and whatever else, and someone who actually follows Jesus are essentially the same thing. So now after all this time we who follow Christ have to live with the reputation that the Catholic church as well as others have created before us. This is what evstevemd meant when he said, “[The] Bible is to be a measure of What Christianity is.”

            I don’t mean to draw away from your discussion, but I have a question for you. What do you believe goes on after a person dies? It sounds like you believe in at least eternity and heaven, but I’m not sure.

          • MR./MRS jesseedavis,
            I can’t speak for Timothy but I don’t mind at all. I want to interact with Christians. I’m assuming you are one. Even if you’re not, trust me I am okay with it…LOL! Sorry just a little humor. Your right, I have been guilty of lumping the majority of modern Christendom with its forbearers and that is not fair of me to do. To be honest I know of perfectly great and loving Christians. I sometimes forget that the Christians that stop me in the middle of a book store to ask me why I eat babies and worship Satan are not representative of the whole group. You (i.e. All other Christians) should not be made to pay for the “sins” of their ancestral church. I realize that the Christianity is an ever evolving entity that has changed much over the two thousand years of its life and is still changing. I do often turn to history because a good indicator of future behavior is what a person or organization has done in the past. I do sometime come off as overly harsh and for that I do apologize to anyone I have offended. Our Nation is a strange mixture of Judeo-Christian and Pagan ideas and values. However it has been the Christian part of that mix that has been dominant for a long time. That has often left people of other Religious persuasions open to verbal and even physical attack. Pagans have been accused of eating babies, I know I have been and I was a SSGT in the United States Air Force until May of this year. I love children and would never harm them, I have spent my time protecting them and every American life. I am not a bad person, I do not dance naked in the night, stealing bodies from graves or Catholic wafers to perform black-mass. The very idea is repugnant. Yet I have been accused of such things by people who don’t know me that ware a cross around their neck and bibles in their cars and hands. It has left a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to meeting many of your faith group. Still I think we have to co-exist until either Jesus comes for you all or until you all see the light…(see I can give both points of view)…but no matter what we have to live on the same planet so I’d like to do it in peace.
            What do I believe about life after death? I’ll try to make it simple so that I don’t bore you to tears. If you want more in-depth detail I can do that in another post. The short and sweet of it is this: When we die, I believe that the human soul goes’s to what the Pagans of old called the summer lands or by your terms “heaven” to live in perfect peace with our dead Ancestors. If a person who had failed to lean life’s lessons died they would have to reincarnate to give it another shot. I also believe that some very good souls come back of their own free will, to help better humanity. I think that there will be very good Christians who wake up after death and be very surprised to find that they are living in a Pagan heaven. The fact that they were Christian, Jewish or Muslim will not matter if they were truly pure souls who worked to help others and to make the world a better place. Dose this answer your question? I hope so. Just because I am Pagan and you are not does not mean any of us have to be enemies. If you have other questions I am always happy to answer. I can only tell you how I see the world and not answer for anyone else but me. I just wanted to make sure you understand that because not all Pagans agree on all things.
            Many blessings to you,
            Adam J.

          • jesseedavis says:

            Thanks for your reply, Adam! I do have another question for you, is the pagan heaven pure and without any corruption? I mean, is it full of people that cannot make mistakes or do harm? Or does it consist of good people that mess up occasionally? The reason I ask is because the problem of evil has to be dealt with completely or else it is a repeat of what we already have: people that, despite the every effort to do otherwise, do harmful acts and cause harm for others even to the point of death. I guess what I am trying to get to is what about a Savior, or someone or something that gets rid of all evil so that heaven is not just a repeat of events?

            To the best of my knowledge the only “religion” that deals with this issue is Christianity. All other religions give a partial solution, but doesn’t get rid of it or else denies it even exists in one way or another.

          • You’re most welcome; the answer to your question is yes. It is pure and perfect, without flaw. There is no evil. The way that some Pagans would explain evil is this: Just as darkness is the result of no light, so evil is the result of human beings who choose not to do the right things. Evil is a choice, not a mandate. Human beings who have free will kill each other or do other monstrous things because we want to not because we have to. Adolf Hitler was angry for many reasons, his father beat him, his mother died, and an art school rejected his works. He had no job or money; he therefore found a scapegoat in the Jewish people. A minority group that different from Catholic Germany. They were the “Christ killers” there for they were blood libel. In Hitler’s mind all these excuses made it okay for him to commit mass murder. The thing is that he didn’t have to kill them, he wanted to. He made a choice to be evil, he wasn’t born that way. I hope this answers your question; anyone can be good or evil. The trick is to control our own actions and not use the actions of others as a crux or excuses to do evil. This is Easy to say and hard to do for most humans on the planet.
            I hope you had a good day and a great night.
            Adam J.

          • jesseedavis says:

            I just want to try to point something out. I hope you can be honest with yourself and catch this. How old were you when you told your first lie? Or when you first stole anything, even the smallest of things? Or when you first caused some sort of harm to someone by word or action?

            If you’re honest it would’ve been way back in your childhood, some of it being before or right when you even learned to talk. Now, here’s the hard one, who taught you to do those things? Did someone show you how to do them and trained you to do it right or did you just do them?

            Adam, there has never ever been a good person, not even you. One single time that you lie to someone else or steal something from them you committed an evil act, period. The problem is not that you do them, but rather that you do them automatically. It is “built-in” so to speak. Even if you can control every word, and action that you have ever done or will do, then you make a wrong decision based on something someone taught you, and guess what, you still did wrong. If you disagree with this than you fool yourself, because you would have to know every in and out of every word and action.

            The point of all this is that you can not make it to a place that is perfect, pure and without flaw without being stripped of every tendency to do them and even deeper than this, you have to have some sort of cover or payment for everything you have done. God is perfect which means He is perfectly just and lets no evil go unpunished. If this is not true of your “gods”, than that already means they are false and nothing more needs to be said. If your gods are perfectly just, than you must also agree that you are evil and that there is a punishment of evil, meaning a hell or something like it.

            So your argument that if you make all the right choices and do “good” deeds then you go to “heaven” is illogical and dangerous, because this also means you are presenting a god, or in your case gods, that are centered around you, which means they are not real, end of story. I also want to get something out here and now. You have stated that if you are wrong and we’re right than you will stand before God and say, “AT LEAST I LIVED FREE!” I don’t mean to burst this “feel good” bubble of yours, but right after you say that, if you even get the chance, you’ll be in eternal torment, separated from God with no second chance. If you’re right, than we get another chance. Based on this alone, it makes no sense to continue on in your charade when you can be truly free for eternity. Think on this and be honest to yourself, because it may be that last chance you have to do so. By the way, you are truly not in control here, so stop playing god and be real.

          • JustAGuy says:

            I do not have time to go through all the points you made, but this one jumps out at me and so I would like to address it.

            ADAM: “Christianity’s spread had nothing to do with Jesus defeating the Old Gods. It had everything to do with murder, trickery and greed. The Gods gave us all free will and a mind with which to reason.”

            TIMOTHY: What I was referring to is that God sent plagues in the form of a number of the gods of Egypt, upon the Egyptians and destroyed them. (Exodus 4-12) Those gods are as old as they get. I was referring to the fact that Elijah as one man, countered 400 prophets of Baal and when God answered by fire following an 18 second prayer, after these 450 deluded ones danced and shouted and cut themselves a whole day –

            1 Kings 18:19-40 Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel’s table. So Ahab sent unto all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel.

            And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

            Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
            And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

            And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under. And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

            And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

            And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded. And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

            And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name: And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

            And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood. And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time. And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

            And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word. Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

            Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

            Adam, these people were caught in the valley of decision. They, like you, believed the Baal’s had the ultimate power. They were proven wrong.

            When I say He defeated the gods, I am referring to the fact that Pharaoh himself received a dream and all his magicians could not interpret it. A prisoners named Joseph interpreted the dream and lead the pagan nation through a famine brought about by the One you would call inferior to the very gods He disdained. Now how does an inferior rebel god stand up against the whole family of gods, from whom you say he rebelled, and bring the whole family to nothing? This is not trickery. It is called Mastery. Our God is the master, and the ‘family of gods’ are the imposters and not god. What family that numbers in the thousands, cannot contain one single mere rogue member? Your paradigm is faulty Adam, and only one of ours can be true.

            History and the rise and fall of great nations, which come and go according to the preordained Word of God, clearly display that the “family of gods” has no power over their Creator, Jesus Christ, who spoke all things into existence visible and invisible:

            Colossians 1:12-21 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

            And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

            The earliest historical accounts show the spread of Christianity was due to the persecution, torture, and death of those who simply said, “Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again the third day. Jesus Christ is Lord of my life.” I see the murdering to be done by religious opponents and by pagan Romans in the first century.

            Today you can look up http://www.freegao.com and read about one man’s torture and possible brutal murder, by a communist government. Adolf Hitler was known to practice the occult. Today the Muslim window is a place of extreme peril for Christians to simply have Bible Studies or praise God. Muslims will kidnap a girl and force her to marry in their faith. Christians do not force, they simply preach the Word, offer salvation and invite others to know the love of Christ and Father God. They are killed and imprisoned for simply inviting, not because they coerce believers into believing. This is well documented by organizations such as Voice of the Martyrs, who serve the persecuted church.

            The testimony of Richard Wurmbrand, its founder, is that while he was in Romanian prison for saying God is greater than the state and communism is not of God. While in prison he writes of pastors giving sermons, being hauled out of the cell, being kicked and beaten for hours, being thrown back in the cell, dusting themselves off and resuming the message with, “now where was I?”

            He recounts that at times a torturer who had beaten the prisoners, would come under the suspicion of the government and be tossed into a cell with the very prisoners they beat. He bears eye witness to Christians who jumped on top of such a man being kicked and beaten in return, to shield the abuser from abuse.

            http://www.persecution.com will take you into a world of reality where the underground Christian church flourishes inspite of the numerous arrests and beatings and killings that take place. If you really seek truth on it, you can rejoice that the Christian church is alive and well in the most hostile of environments as the persecuted, and not the persecutor.

            If we are to build a bridge, then we have to have a level of mutuality upon which to converse. A relationship is a bridge we build upon. The materials we build that bridge upon must consist of trust. You or I wouldn’t drive a truck over a swinging bridge. There are areas of sound agreement that we must come to for the trust to be founded. I do not trust your foundation and you do not trust mine. It is not possible for me to trust your logic and your message of paganism when it asserts Christianity is evil and my God is evil.

            However, if a friendship is to be forged we can talk about what your hobbies are and move it to another location. So, do you like fishing?

            May you come to know the love and peace and blessing of God I have received,

            Timothy

          • I have to say I did not realize you were using the bible’s descriptions of prophets and other Biblical stories as your debating point. I thought you were using historical accounts. Since the bible is only partly a reliable in its history, I cannot debate the religious myths of the Bible. So my premise is not so much faulty as there was a misunderstanding in what I thought you were saying. Your right, neither one of us agrees on the faith of the other. I see your God Jesus as having been nothing more than a Human Rabbi who died for political rebellion against Rome. The God of the Jews in my mind is really a separate being. I believe that the Jewish God “Ha Shem” is allowed to be as he is because the larger families of Gods are teaching him a lesson. Sometimes family can be over indulgent of its members. Ultimately however it is the human being that are responsible for their actions on earth. Even with our disagreement on Faith I think that we can build a bridge on our shared ideals. Some of these ideals are Honorable behavior towards others, the value of another human life, truthfulness in our dealings with others, kindness to the stranger. These things that Paganism and Monotheism share in common can be a starting point. Don’t you agree? Do Christian Monotheists suffer at the hands of other Monotheists? Yes, sadly they do. Humanity does not have to act in the way it does, Muslims and Christians and Jews need not kill each other. But when you view the world in terms of I AM RIGHT ergo he is wrong, it’s no wonder people get so angry when they are rejected or their ideals are rejected. Pagans and Christians need not be at war because ultimately if your right and I’m wrong then I will stand on my feet before your God and say, “AT LEAST I LIVED FREE!” If I am right and you are wrong than you’ll have to repeat the lesson you failed to learn. By the way I’ve not been fishing in years. My Grandfather used to take me with him often. I do a lot of reading and I rather like researching my family history as well as history in general. How about you?
            Go in the peace of the Gods,
            Adam

      • JustAGuy says:

        Adam, much of what gets attributed to God as being evil refuses to take into account that He alone holds eternity in His hands. This life is temporal and He is the Creator, even of Lucifer and all pagan entities that have chosen to rebel against Him and seek the adoration due to Him alone. I serve a God who says Sodom will be resurrected and will be held in higher esteem in the day of judgment than some cities that are religiously zealous but do not have the heart of the God they claim to serve. In this God agrees with you!

        We cannot judge God and not take into our feeble reckonings the fact that He has not concluded the work He has begun. I read the rants of many God haters and it is like saying to a baker, I hate your bread, it is all gooey. Let the Maker finish His creation, and then call Him into judgment on it.

        Blessings and Peace,
        Timothy

  22. evstevemd says:

    I have not been in Nigeria, neither I can say I know T.B well. I also don’t defend Him. But I asked one dear Brother who is Nigerian friend about T.B Joshua and Why is so attacked. Let me quote what he answered me
    “May Be those who are attacking him are jelous of him. But T.B is Man of God who preaches simplicity of Jesus. I know T.B and I have been there, he is really man of God. I just don’t understand those people”

    Ev. Steve Apologia md
    ____________________________

    Jesus is Love
    Jesus is God
    By his stripes we were healed

  23. i was raised a roman catholic who is slowly converting to paganism…perhaps wicca, if you will but not necessarily a “witch” who casts spells.

    how can i be sure that my “gods” are not deceiving me?

    easy. the god and goddess, as well as the others are together, one entity. perhaps i am wrong in this.

    and if, by chance, when i die i am faced with the Christian God who looks back on my life with me, asks me of my religious choice and what caused it, what do i expect? if God is merciful and understanding, he will understand that it wasn’t to worship demons and satan.

    i could also just be an ignorant 19 year old.

    • It is a known fact that Pagans do not believe in God, Goddess, or any other holy form of power. We also don’t give a name to evil, because that gives it power. Instead of Gods or Goddesses, we believe in the Spirit and the Soul in every NATURAL being around us. The Pentagram, or 5-pointed star in a circle, does not represent evil or Satanic worship in any way. It represents the 5 basic elements of life: Earth, Water, Wind, Fire, and Spirit, being enclosed as one, yet seperate in life (the circle), showing eternal balance and spirit in Nature. But good for you, moving on to being a Wicca! I started about 4 years ago, and I’m about to get a family traditional Pentagram Ring that represents that you are able to broadcast yourself as a Witch (yes that is one way to name the practicers of this religion) or a Wiccan. My mom has one, and I will get one from Dan’s Jewelers, but I digress. Even though, Sweet!

    • Megan You can go to the “WITCHES VOICE” and learn much. You choice to be Christian or Pagan or even Atheist should come from a deep and meaningful search. Not from skimming some blogs or other people’s ideas. They have their places but a truly wise person searches and searches and never stops searching because there is always something new to learn. I wish you much luck on your journey and may wisdom abide with you. By the way, I’m nearly 30 now and find that we all have ignorant days, don’t sale yourself short by demining you!
      Bright blessings,
      Adam

  24. ronald enowarong says:

    hello,
    my name is ronald all along from Cameroon please i am begging you people over there my suffering is too much i love playing football but all i lack is just a helping hands please i am begging in gods name

  25. eyesabove says:

    It is really hard to speak to people over the net with no knowledge of them or who they truly are. It is hard to know what to say that is consistent with your beliefs and yet does not hurt another person. I am proud to be a Christian and I believe with all my heart but at the same time I do not wish to offend others and degrade them. I do however realize that that is sometimes inevitable. Just realize that what I say I do not say with judgement or condemnation. I say these with the hope that GOD speaks to each of you personally and in different and powerful ways. I pray that He makes himself known to us all.

    If you study religions it is absolutely true that you will find numerous similarities in all of them. I myself have taken several classes about various religions and since then continued my knowledge on them. I am a youth pastor at my church so you can be sure that I must stay up to date and very thorough on my knowledge of things I speak of. I can not profess to have a deeply spirtual practicing knowledge of other religions. But I do try to find the most accurate and thorough information through research and observation.

     

    Here is what I have found: (Again try not to be too offended)

    I have been on websites and read other materials where people are unrestained and unconcerned in their bashing of my Father and my beliefs and who I am. And I will not lie it both infuriates me and deeply grieves me. But I try and with His help succeed at fighing off both. I am not going to bash anyones religion today hopefuuly. I do not hate differences nor can I say that I am a perfect person without my own flaws. But I can promise you this everyone can not be right! Most religions whether admittingly or not in key aspects  blatently contradict each other. So if one says yes and one says no….They can’t both be right. I know that it is very tempting to believe that all is okay as long as….I don’t cross this line. That simply can not be true for every belief systems and their very diferent lines. All religions have lines. Every single one. Every person has lines!

     

    Sorry for rambling, back to my original point:

    Every relgion(some more than others) have similar points. I do not pretent to know exactly the source and time of the changes and yes confusion but there are definitely points at which some stories and hand-me-down beliefs have been misconstrued. I know that it seems to some awefully presumtious of me to assume that my religion is the one without confusion and that I am right. That is not what I am saying. My religion has it’s own very serious warring denominations and very confused and selfish people as well. And I am not standing (well sitting and typing) here today saying that I am 100% right all the time because that would be a lie.But I also can not pretend that I do not believe what I believe and that is it for me.  It is who I am and it is my life. I HAVE seen it and I HAVE experienced it and I HAVE my proof and I KNOW and I just BELIEVE.

    Seperate and very different religions have similar stories about birds and names and even certain morals. It is odd how people who kill and hate each other agree on certain things(whether they admit it or not). I find it not so strange at all actually. I find that it actually fits pretty well with daily life and the bible. GOD created Adam and Eve so it was the first religion by my belief (and yes I base my conclusions off of it). So some things just got passed along wrong. Kinda like the kids game of Telephone. Some was probably on accident and some on purpose. satan aka “the devil”(which actually means contrary- that’s a surprise right) has I am sure constructed this plan to confuse, desensitize, and just screw up GOD’s people and His truth. That’s kinda his whole plan. And whether you call it free will or self worship or peace or hapiness, It exists and is obvious.

    I challenge you to actually do some research on many religions and see if you don’t find very similar stories and names and other things that surprise you. But I also challenge you to think about this question….Does that mean that they are all or some or two right? Or does it mean that One is true and the others are just variations? And I do not say this to mock you or call you stupid. I say this in hopes that you will truly take a step back and see things. I mean really see things. I have evaluated my faith and have been confirmed and proved in my life by GOD over and over again.

     

    Also I admit that there are obviously other “gods”. I prefer not to call them that because I have and know only one GOD but the bible says “have no other gods before me”. It does not say there are no other gods. It does however say that these “gods” are not GOD nor do they have HIS power nor are they TRUE gods. They are tricks and deceit and lies to confuse and seperate us from each other and GOD. A God is whatever you worship and set in your heart as the most important thing/s.

     

    GOD is everything. He created everything. He knows everything. And He will judge all of our hearts one day. And He does offer salvation to ALL who seek. If we knock the door will be opened and if we wait He will not leave us there alone.

     

    I hope that GOD was able to speak through me in this some way and that He speaks to someone. GOD is, and was, and is forever! To HIM be the Glory forever!

     

     

     

     

    • I really appreciate your reply. GOD created the world and in His ten commandments to man, it is written. WORSHIP NO OTHER GOD but only me meaning that anything else I repeat that anything else that man places his trust belief and investment in terms of dependency with all heart without acknowledging GOD is another god. GOD made it clear that man as to worship only only HIM.
      Sincerely, if GOD open the minds and understanding of today’s world so the truth which i HIS word can be comprehended.

  26. warrior daughter says:

    Baal worship is still practiced maybe not in such extreme as the ancients but Baal is still around…Some of his fruits are homosexuality, poronography, abortion, drugs, child porn, child slavery, mutilation, cutting, lust ect..Baal is in all the ancient religions but he is known by another name suited to that religion… Baal is also the one who wants to possess and is on a constant agenda going after the next generation…

    • Are you saying that Baal is the devil or is he something else? My older brother said that Baal and the Satan are the same our Bible study.
      Rus.

      • warrior daughter says:

        I am saying that Baal and the devil are not one and the same…Baal is a false god/demon and is subject to Satan…Any false gods are in Satan’s kingdom and are under Satan’s leadership…May 1st was a holiday and is still celebrated throughout the world and it honors Baal and thus honors Satan…Cick onto the recent posts “The Beltain Celebration” …..This is an enlightening blog…..

        Blessings…………

        • Thank you for clearing up what you were saying. I was not 100% sure. There are a lot of people my age that are in churces around my area that are starting to doubt what the Bible teaches. Its hard to be asked so many hard questions and not really understand the Bible all that well myself. I have to fight a lot of doubt too because these pagans at school are smart and have a lot of answer to defend thier faith with. Lots of it sounds good or even right but my brother keeps telling me that they are not and so I keep trying to gorw in Jesus.
          Rus

          • Dear Rus,
            In Irish mythology, the beginning of the summer season for the Tuatha Dé Danann and the Milesians started at Bealtaine. Great bonfires would mark a time of purification and transition, heralding in the season in the hope of a good harvest later in the year, and were accompanied with ritual acts to protect the people from any harm by Otherworldly spirits, such as the Aos Sí. Like the festival of Samhain, opposite Beltane on October 31 Beltane was also a time when the Otherworld was seen as particularly close at hand. Early Gaelic sources from around the 10th century state that the druids of the community would create a need-fire on top of a hill on this day and drive the village’s cattle through the fires to purify them and bring luck (Eadar dà theine Bhealltainn in Scottish Gaelic, ‘Between two fires of Beltane’). This term is also found in Irish and is used as a turn of phrase to describe a situation which is difficult to escape from. In Scotland, boughs of juniper were sometimes thrown on the fires to add an additional element of purification and blessing to the smoke. People would also pass between the two fires to purify themselves. This was echoed throughout history after Christianization, with lay people instead of Druid priests creating the need-fire. The festival persisted widely up until the 1950s, and in some places the celebration of Beltane continues today. Beltane as described in this article is a specifically Gaelic holiday. Other Celtic cultures, such as the Welsh, Bretons, and Cornish, do not celebrate Beltane, per se. However, they celebrated or celebrate festivals similar to it at the same time of year. In Wales, the day is known as Calan Mai, and the Gaulish name for the day is Belotenia

        • בעל(BAAL) is a god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, and the lord of Heaven. Since only priests were allowed to utter his divine name Hadad, Ba‛al was used commonly. Nevertheless, few if any Biblical uses of “Ba‛al” refer to Hadad, the lord over the assembly of gods on the holy mount of Heaven, but rather refer to any number of local spirit-deities worshipped as cult images, each called ba‛al and regarded by the writers of the Hebrew Bible in that context as a false god. Baal is sometimes seen as a demon in Christianity. This is a potential source of confusion. Until archaeological digs at Ras Shamra and Ebla uncovered texts explaining the Syrian pantheon, the demon Ba‘al Zebûb was frequently confused with various Semitic spirits and deities entitled Baal, where as in some Christian writings, it might refer to a high-ranking devil or to Satan himself. In the ancient world of the Persian Empire, as monotheistic strains of thought were gaining steam, from the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean Sea, worship of deities represented by idols was being rejected in favor of the cult of Yahweh. In the Levant the idols were called “ba’als”, each of which represented a local spirit-deity or “demon”. Worship of all such spirits was rejected as immoral, and many were in fact considered malevolent and dangerous. Early demonologists, unaware of Hadad or that “Ba’al” in the Bible referred to any number of local spirits, came to regard the term as referring to but one personage. Baal (usually spelt “Bael” in this context; there is a possibility that the two figures are not connected) was ranked as the first and principal king in Hell, ruling over the East. According to some authors Baal is a duke, with 66 legions of demons under his command. During the English Puritan period, Baal was either compared to Satan or considered his main lieutenant. According to Francis Barrett, he has the power to make those who invoke him invisible. While the Semitic high god Ba’al Hadad was depicted as a human, a ram, or a bull, the demon Bael was in grimoire tradition said to appear in the forms of a man, cat, toad, or combinations of them.

    • moonwolf23 says:

      Baal is a Caananite deity, he wasn’t worshipped in homosexuality or pornography or abortion or etc. I believe he was a thunder god and worshipped to have the rain come.

      http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.htm

      The Jews won in the ancient war with Caanan no need to continue to lie about what the old Deities did or didn’t do.

  27. What is that stuff The poster Adam left at the end of his last post?

    • warrior daughter says:

      I instantly recognized the writing as Latin since my mother was a Latin teacher….I tried to translate it but came up with a warning on my computer that I was in jeopardy of a virus…I think he is telling us to listen to what he has to say since he is a wise and sane man and the master at the helm and that we are being deceived for he is the teacher of wisdom and to taste of what he says and there was something about a puzzle …Again I will state that his doctrine is nothing new but the doctrine of demons and anyone pursuing this doctrine are the ones who are being deceived….I may be totally off on the translation but I know there are people who can easily translate what was said…

  28. Hi my name is Luca,
    I have been reading the posts between the different people here and Adam. He seems like he really believes what he is saying. I was raised in a church and am not sure where I am going but some of what Adam say’s and some of what you all say are kind of the same. I mean what makes Jesus so different from the Gods that Adam worships? Is there? I am going to look for the books he talked about. I also heard there was like a hundred books that were originally in the bible that got taken out. Is that true? If it is, then can someone tell me why? Part of me wonders if Jesus is the way or is it Paganism. I don’t want to fight, I just want some answers.
    Thanks,
    Luca.

  29. Hello michael,
    How have you been? I hope well. How is your wife? Again I hope she is doing much much better.
    It’s been a while and I was thinking about you and this site and just wanted to see how things were.You can guess how surprised I was to see the amount of discussion you and I generated. I have to say it’s a good thing, healthy debate, even when disagreeing is always good. Now I know you are very Christian and that you are even a sincere one. That is something which I respect. I as many other Pagans do will find your article errant and offensive, however the truth is that this IS A CHRISTAIN WEBSITE and thus WE (Pagans) ought not to be surprised by your views or even condemn you for them. Your faith is your faith and we will not be able to assist you. I would like it if you were nicer to Pagans but then I suppose you are as nice to us as you can be and more so than many other Christians have been. If you do not mind, I would like to come back and join the group…not as a regular commenter but just as a stop in once in a while and see how you are. I’ve not finished reading everything on the page yet…haven’t had the time but I look forward to doing so. For now I send you good thoughts and a blessing.
    Adam.

    • michael says:

      Yes, thanks for asking. My wife is doing well these days.

      You are right about this being a Christian website. The other thing to consider is that I have a lot of roles to fulfil – as a father, a pastor, a real estate agent, and so on – and so I don’t always get the time to really research into a lot of important areas. I have to “choose my battles” so to speak. So I can’t always go into depth on any conversation, due to the time it can take to do the proper research. I’m more interested in PRACTICING Christianity than defending it, and this means that I have plenty of challenges all the time.

      I’m sure you understand that. In any case, please understand that I don’t wish on you or anyone else HARM. I actually have a deep passion for the eternal and even temporal well-being of people. That is why, given my convictions, I invest time and money into evangelism. I don’t make the rules in this Universe, God does. As I understand it, our God wants all people to come to Him and receive His love, but sadly, most will not. He doesn’t take pleasure in the death of any sinner.

  30. The problem is that wars of great magnitude have been fought between those of opposing faiths. You cannot honestly ignore the fact that the Christians of ancient times, even the Jews believed deeply enough in their religion to die for it, to resist the leadership of nations, and whether by active or passive resistance live what they believed in. I was saddened because despite the fact our country was founded upon Judea o-Christian foundations- our nation is spirally into what may be its last days of power and a great nation.

    From a Christian viewpoint, we have failed to stick with our original beliefs and principles and as Paul wrote to the churches of Asia we have allowed all manner of that which we once as a faith would have not allowed to exist- to emerge, flower, and is now bringing our countries to its knees.

    All of this ‘freedom’ is not without a price. As Christians we are not free to live life however we choose and there can never be any true peace between what is good and what is evil.

    The essence of evil is selfishness, groups of people just socializing, and using ‘caring about the earth’ as a way to form a social group which is destroying the very basis of the family, or deeply moral foundations, and our country.

    Know this. There can only be one God. We have weathered people worshiping stone and trees and sacrificing children to ancient gods for tens of thousands of years. It has gotten so the “new religions” aren’t even religions.

    A man died 2,000 years ago to save us. And a God gave his son to bring us eternal life. There is no argument. It happened. No one can make anyone believe in God. No one can make you know that miracles exist and that in truth we are so close to the End of Days and the plague is less than 2 months off which may kill millions and make many nations fall.

    They stoned the prophets. And it is so deceiving to cloak the elements of Pagan worship that has destroyed nation after nation in history. To watch as people become asexual, families fall apart as mothers become fathers, and as prophesied there is a loss of natural affection and compassion.

    Do what thou wilt is not the whole of any law. It is the words of a cocaine frenzied lunatic finding followers by writing book after book of almost insane gibberish.

    How many pagans would give their life to save the world? Not the trees and bushes, the people?

    As God has said, because you were neither cold nor warm I will spew you out my mouth. You will live to see your nation collapse and truly disease will be rampant, violence, and the world as you know it will end.

    There was a reason for the angels who came to Sodom and Gomorrah- and there was a reason they could not find a dozen righteous people in the city.

    I love all people. Yet I think they are led astray by wanting to be loved and being part of a group and there are only two commandments. Love God with all your heart and soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

    The freedom has resulted in a permissive and immoral society which is destroying itself. True Christians are few. None wants to stand and be counted for their faith. We need not kill- but we must recognize that which is not of God. God did not intend for you to worship his creation, he intended for you to worship him. To dedicate lives to helping others who are suffering.

    There is no communion with light and darkness. I have lost my son to the Pagans. I ask my Christian brothers and sisters to pray that somehow that god will send legions of angels and helpers to save that one pure light of innocence.

    Know this. Either there is or their is not a God such as christians belief in. If there is- you will see the day of Wrath and Maranatha-

    This is no game. There are immortal souls to be won or lost. Many will be called to give their lives for their faith. Few will do so.

    It is not cute, or crafty or purest and go back to nature. We have forgotten the God who made us. He is no whispy make your own thing- he is a living person- almighty-all powerful- and the creator of all that is.

    This is the essence of Christianity. Jesus were he here in body would go not only into the gatherings of the Pagans but into the corrupted body of Christ and he would weep.

    Know this by what is to come- there is only one God- as Pharoah was forced to acknowledge- and no man or woman can serve two masters.

    I will not worship stones and trees. They are are only his refleciton. I will worship and praise and reverence the Father.. the one true living God.

    Maranatha

  31. I have a question.
    I have red many parts of the bible in the web,and many articles about it.Most of them are discussing topics about God’s wrath and how satanic our world nowdays is.I’ve heard about children sacrifices,and about God’s plan for the future.And my question is this:
    Why does our world have to be a part of a plan or a prophecy?How many innocent people and children are going to be sacrificed until the satanic works will end?How many people have to be sacrificed because of the Satan’s revolution against God?And why doesnt God destroy Satan now since he can?What is he waiting for?Why does our lives,our people,our happiness,our world and everything that surrounds us have to be a part of a plan?Why does God have to save his people in a specific date and year,and not now?And most importantly,why does God have to punish those who dont believe in him,since he knows that his children have been decieved by Satan himself?No offence intended,i too believe in Jesus,but there are things in the bible that i just dont understand.Why doesnt God try to save his children,faithful or not,now?Why do people have to be Satan’s victims until God’s arrival and Apocalypse?How many people will have to suffer till the day that God choses to fight against Satan?I’d love to have an answer by someone who understands the bible more than me!

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Mellow,

      I appreciate your questions. The important thing to know in the answer to these are that God is eternal. Can we fathom how long that is? The answer to God's goodness is found in the fact of His eternity. This earth is not the real life, it is the precurser, or trying ground for eternal life. It is only in this context, that we can begin to see a good and loving reason for the suffering of mankind.

      I hear the sincerity and searching in your questions. They are good questions. The key to faith is knowing there are good answers, even when we do not see them. Let me share some of what we do see, however, that can alay your fears and compassionate concerns.

      Our world doesn't "have to be" part of a plan, or purpose. It is simply that were there no plan, this world would not exist, because it did not bring itself into existance. The universe and all the angelic realms were created by Jesus Christ, as an expression of the will of God the Father. Consider this from Colossians 1:

      "We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit." (Congratulations, you have just survived perhaps the world's longest sentence!) inhale…

      "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

      "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

      Now, seeing that all things are made by him, is it not logical that he had a reason? What are "reasons" on God's part as Creator, become our "purpose" in lfe as his creation. The good news is, that God's purposes are loving and kind and eternal… its just that we are in the turbulent formative part of that eternal creation that is temporal, as mankind is having to choose whether or not they will be a part of it, the eternal plan.

      When it comes to suffering. Jesus suffered the shame and crucifixion of the cross for the joy set before him. Hebrews 12:2.

      If you look up the word "joy" you will find in the new testament that Christians have joy in the midst of suffering. God has made a way for all who are suffering to have joy, even in the worst of this tempestous temporal existance. Even the martyrs of yesterday and today (it didn't stop in Rome) find great joy as they pass from this life to the next at the hands of murderers.

      Is it fun? No. Is it easy? No. Is it worth the reward? YES, YES, YES!!

      Can you or I do this in our own strength? No. We ALL need Christ, sister.  When He is alive in us, we can partake of His sufferings and even in the midst of them, find great joy and peace that pass our understanding.

      Would you, Mellow, prefer to go through life with fear, but no troubles? Or, would you rather go through life with troubles and no fear? Jesus offers us the latter, and he replaces that fear with great joy – even in the midst of suffering. If you receive Him today, that peace can become yours, and the understanding of all you are seeking will come as well. For it is written: "a good understanding have all they that keep His commandments." Doing precedes understanding. We can only put so much into words, but there is so much more that goes beyond words!

      I hope I haven't given you too much!! But… you have shared a lot of thoughts that have taken you a lot of time to ponder, so I trust we are ok!

      Peace to you in the journey. He wants to cleanse you and establish you.

      Tim

       

       

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Short answer, to make up for the long one I just gave you…
      If God wrapped up this dog and pony show because of the level of sin, He would have had to do that a long time ago. YOU would not be here to ask the question. He loves YOU, and has ordained that YOU, and others like you, be born. Without that, He would not have you for eternity. There are others we must patiently endure for as well. You are worth it! They are worth it!
      Does this help?

      • Timothy Luke says:

        Dear Sister,

        You ask about why suffering? I know what you are talking about…

        "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
        And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

        "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

        "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

        Love, Paul,

        Romans 8:16-25
         

      • Yes your comment answered a lot,thank you :)

    • Holyroller_11 says:

      all children will go to heaven with God,so he’s got that covered,as for test would you trust me with a 1000000 bucks of yours,without testing me first,God will not let you in his kingdom without testing u first, also God asked for honor,we as people want the same,but what does God get,everything but,why do we blame him for stupid things we do at our own hand,and curse him to his face for giving us a choice.sounds a little one sided don’t you think

      • I do not blame God for my mistakes.I know that when someone chooses to sin,its his own and only responsibility.I know that i have been sinful as much as everyone and i do know that God wants to test our faith.I just wonder about the whole world-plan-prophecy.I just wish that all these things about satanic rituals,children sacrifices and many more,were not true.I just wish that things werent like that.And as i’ve red in the bible,Satan-devil or whatever else you call him,has his ways on decieving people and doing all the things that God wouldnt like seeing.

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          now you make sense,maybe there is hope here yet,I agree the world has gone nuts,and soon things will be made right,the world gets meaner everyday,and God didn’t plan this,but in order to allow man to live free,he was given a choice, even then he is cursed,what should he do, so he gave us his own Son,to make an escape,many accept,many refuse,some say he is a fable,but no matter,judgement day comes for us all,I sense you are pondering all this,or you wouldn’t be here,surly to didn’t come here to cause confusion,you can today be brand new,old things past away,all things new,you choose,good luck and God show you the way

    • Holyroller_11 says:

      the bible is alive,it tells the past and it tells the future,it tells us how to live in peace,and joy,satan cannot make you sin,you choose,you have enough sinse not to jump in a fire,though satan would have you to do it ,yet when you do wrong of your own choosing,then get into trouble,you blame God,why,he told you not to ,yet its his fault,the bible is instruction manual on how to stay safe,why not read it,and follow directions

    • He wants all to come to know him, he my dear mellow is waiting for blinders to be removed from peoples eyes and for the fullness of iniquity. You dear mellow live in a fallen world where justice is not truely served. Where people who are innocent can be sentanced to death and be executed where people do terrible things and think that they are doing good. Where wars & killing lead to more wars & more killing. This Jesus that you speak of is not the Jesus of the bible. You have made up who you want God tO be. Jesus is a merciful GoD, But my dear he is a JUST God as well. We all have learned of his ways by nature. If you read your bible. He taught that the world was round & that the polar areas had snow, this is not one Book. It is a series of Books written by men yes. But these men were inspired by God’s Holy Spirit. In the Old testament there is foreshadowing of what would come & jesus is concealed but in the new testament he is revealed. Men who had never been in places like the north pole spoke of it. Do you ever wonder why this planet was placed in just the right place. It orbits just right. A few degrees off And we would freeze & another few degrees we would burn up. By these thing god has born wittness of himself. His miracles have been witnessed his wonders are terrifying. So everyone has seen him in many areas. How can anyone be innocent? Jesus is waiting for as many people to come to him before the time comes also there has to be a fullness of iniquity before the end comes. I probably won’t change what you think or believe. But this jesus you profess is not the jesus of the Bible he is someone you want him to be. So you can do no wrong in this guy so you think you aren’t sinning. I hate to tell you this. But you are and you are opening your children or your future children as well as your family and yourself up to dangerous forces. If you look on this site you will find many who have testified of thinking they were just having fun or just curious or just wanted to learn something new & they needed help from people of God and from jesus. You see the Jesus I know, took my sins & not just mine but Everyones sins. And all he asks is for us to accept what he did and ask him to come into our hearts & let him live with us. Well dear, considering the fact that he is a gentleman, he will not force anyone to ask him, but. You better realize this. When he Does come again, He will respect your choice of not asking him into your heart & letting him live in you. And believe me asking you to do that isn’t much considdeering the fact that he died in your place and my place & the whole worldS place. For all sin is worthy of death and he took my place. So you are really hurting him when you make up your own Jesus, And you are No Christian if you don’t Follow his teachings. I will pray for you Mellow. Love, Annette

  32. moonwolf23 says:

    Hi.

    Interesting opinion piece.

    Ok lets start with how do you know that your Gods are not deceiving you. The same way that you know that Jehova isn’t a false God. Faith. There is no way to tell other then that. For many Pagans we get to know our Gods on a personal level and gut check. For the more factually inclined they look to archaeological sources, but it really boils down to Faith.

    No, Pagans do not believe that nature is divine, nor can I think you can say the same of Wiccans either. To many Nature is Sacred. Some worship nature, but that is some Pagans.

    After the publishing of triumph of the moon and Witches Druids and King Arthur, slowly but surely some Pagans are starting to get over the whole Christians killed millions of Witches during the burning times. sigh. Honestly, another Pagan actually pointed out the context of that time. When you have family and friends passing away to some unnamed malady and you don’t understand bacteria(the way most of us do thanks to pasteur and public education) it’s easy to get scared and start pointing fingers. I can’t judge those people from my hindsight is 20/20 view of the world. Frankly it’s a bit stupid. Though I do not understand your bitterness at Catholics in this piece. Catholicism and the Eastern Orthodox Church are the oldest form of Christianity (alive today to the best of my knowledge)

    Many Pagans are pretty knowledgeable about Jesus and the early church. Many of them have had very very bad encounters with many churches and pastors. It takes time to get over.

    Anyway interesting opinion piece though I think it could use some editing and clarifying.

  33. Winter88 says:

    First I just want to start by saying,I only signed up for this site to post on this topic. I was in bed last night and ran pass this through my cell phone,and it made me very sad! From what I have read here,I see closed minded people not will to understand another person. From many years christians and christianity itself has had its way of forcing their beliefs on others,whether through murder and prosecution or simply exiling and treating those with different beliefs cruelly. It is very sad to think that someone who would see deity in their eyes,as compassionate and all loving…could be call wrong by people who see deity as a cruel man,who makes rules that he cannnot follow! Why would a loving “father” throw his children he loves into horrible pits of hell,and allow creatures HE created to destroy them? This is life not a test! This is another frightening tale that christanity uses to demand the all must follow their ways! As christians,I suggest before ritaculing others for their beliefs,that you research the background on your own!

    For starters,I once read a part int he bible where god killed a man for pulling out to come when having sex with a woman..god “Struck him down!” Also,this biblical god has killed many,and much for absurd reasons. A parent,true and loving does not condemn his children…now,deity can be seen in many forms,for example,I call the most high deity,a Goddess,she does not harm her children which come from her…she does not hold us in a pit and allow us to be tortured because of mistakes we made in a lifetime,instead we pass through many life times,we learn more and we actually become wise and grow up! Yes,times are changing,some people are not learning as others are! But the TRUE test,is learning to hold sacred in what you believe in,and to love others no matter how different they are! To say such a things as you are going to hell because blah blah blah,is to fall into another form a mistreating a person. Why can you not say,”This is my belief,and you are my friend,I love you????”

    I once had a friend who was Satanic,she was MY VERY BEST FRIEND when I was fourteen,she never pressed her religion on me,and I never pressed mine on her! But we were perfect friends,this did not taint me in any way. Why cant people not see that this is the way to grow,not running around telling others what they should do.

    Something else I would like to put some light on,is alot of what you have stated about Pagans here is false,so if you would like to learn more,I think you should study up more. Before you speak out about something,you should know about it. Example,I have read articules saying that Pagans harm animals and sacrific them,and all there awful things,but did you read your own christian bible? Did you not read where god told them to sacrific…I want to say it was a goat,he was telling them what to do with its blood and such! The way i read it…this was a RITUAL,and I have never..ever ever ever..seen anything like this in Pagan texts or tradition,but it is in YOUR own bible. If you do not understand you own book,maybe you should get the version that is more up to date,where god gave Noah the measurements to build the arch!

    The bible does not seem to pinpoint on people as a whole,it pinpoints on people of a certain area,child of Abraham and so forth!..sorry to skip,let me go back to this ritual I read in the bible…it was god told them to kill the god and smear its blood upon a alter,he told them to make robes and what color to make these robes,from the order it came in the book,it seemed like the first church like place god had ever told make to construct. This is awful,I want nothing to do with killing animals and smearing their blood on an alter.
    (If you do not believe me about this,research it for yourself)

    There are many things in the bible that was ok in the beginning in gods eyes,sleeping with servants to have children? He even protected on other these mothers,but then in the later half be makes a huge list of rule right and wrong,this is MAN who has written this book remember that when you speak about it! Men who by all means need control over the people,no womans hand was in the bible,she did not write! Could god have been as sexist as those men at that time?

    There are so many christians who say: we do not question god: for this list of reasons…but you are from god right? Even in the bible he portrayed feelings of jealousy,temper.rage…sadness…because we come from supreme deity,we have emotions as well. So why would it be said that we cannot feel them? It i a sin to hate? I can hate all I please,but it is up to ME to learn what will come of it! Where it will get me,and to look within my heart and learn there are other ways. Not the threat that I will be punished or harmed for not learning fast enough!

    Another thing I think s quite funny,is that christians dont even worship in the fashion it began in,they have made up a new way(if you dont believe this,go read your own bible) in your bible worship to god was done differently,why change it? Because it is so similar to islamic fashion? Another religion you dont agree with? Sitting in church and studying a book written by mean,who teaches you to try and be like god,why can a person not be the best of themselve since we are all so different? Why does that mean living JUST like you? What you do in church is a ritual,that you have changed over time because…for what reason you no longer do things the way the bible spoke of in the beginning? It seems very much this book portrays god in a ruthless manner,creating evil and them forcing you(a weak human) in between to choose in ONE lifetime.????

    Another thing I wanted to state is that,you said something about Pagans trying to excape the world ending? NO! Nothing truly ends,even science will state that. The soul is eternal,and as I said before…a true loving god does not cause harm to what they love! The Goddess does not,and if energies,such as damage to the world,or anything outside of this,causes damage to the earth,it will evolve and grow just as anything else. Just as the soul itself.

    So I am going to close with this,do some more research on your OWN religion first,before you proceed to another. I ma not trying to force my beliefs on anyone,or say another is right or wrong,I would like to pinpoint that many people I have met who are christians,do not know the history or the come about of their own religion,or even read the bible enough to understand what kind of deity they worship. Reading the scriptures of things god supposedly said is not enough research…you must look at everything he has done in these books. A father does condemn his children,NOT EVER,he loves them not matter what and RAISES them!

    • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

      I am a Roman Catholic, and if you read my profile you will see that a “pagan friend” steered me back to the right path. I have friends that are pagan, because we do share a lot in common. Our similarities go back to the beginning of time. Sacrificing evolved from paganism, in Jeremiah Gods states, (and I am paraphrasing) that when he brought the children out of Egypt, he told them nothing of sacrifice. Jews picked it up by the pagan culture surrounding them. I could go on further with the Old Testemant and some pagan beliefs incorporated into Judaism, but let’s go onto the “New”. Christmas, Easter, , Valentine’s Day, our names for the days of the week,and some of the months all stem from paganism, as well as the wedding vows we say in our churches. We all have more in common than most are willing to admit. I am a “Christian” but have a love for people of all beliefs.

      • Yes, Christmas, Easter and more have pagan elements mixed into our popular celebrations of these events. God never commanded we celebrate these things anyway – but people do, and to the extent paganism is kept out, well and good.

        As for the idea of sacrifices being borrowed from paganism – from the time of Cain and Abel there have been religious sacrifices – some of which please the Creator and some which don't.

        Its good to love people of all beliefs but its not good to love the religious practices which lead men away from the God of truth.

        • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

          Hello my brother in Christ,
          I do no think they ate meat during the time of Cain and Abel. In Genesis 9:3-5, it states that they were not to eat flesh with the life in it. (Revised Holy Scriptures, In accordance with the JewishTradition.)
          Why would they sacrifice what they were not going to eat?
          Sincerely, Zoey

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Zoey

            The following verses say, Abel sacrificed sheep unto God, we know this, because it also says he offered the fat as well, you can’t offer the fat, without a sacrifice taking place, also the understanding, if Abel was a keeper of sheep, those sheep were being kept for the eating.
            So yes it could be understood, Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel ate meat, sheep in particular.

            Gen 4:2-4
            2) And she again bare his brother Abel. And (ABEL WAS A KEEPER OF SHEEP), but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
            3) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
            4) And (ABEL), he (ALSO BROUGHT OF THE FIRSTLINGS OF HIS FLOCK) (AND THE FAT THEREOF). And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

            In relation to your reference to Gen, (9:3-5).
            This was being spoken to Noah and his sons after the flood, but God did not make any kind of stipulations to Adam before the flood.

            Gen 9:1
            And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

            Be Blessed
            JIM

          • Zoey Wooten-Bowman says:

            I will admit the parts about sacrificing are very confusing to me. I do know I read in Jerimiah 7: 21 that God said he spoke nothing about sacrificing when he brought them out of Egypt, and in lots of places, he said he did not desire it. Also I was told at the synagogue, that it was a practice that Jews picked up from the pagan culture around them. sincerely, Zoey

  34. moonwolf23 says:

    I also wanted to touch on the point that you said that your God has been around since forever and our Gods haven’t.

    If you take a look at William Devers writings I’d say maybe not. Your faith evolved from Judaism which very well may have had a separation from another faith in the middle east(Abraham being the original patriarch and all that) You could try pointing out that the creation of the earth is “proof”, but I’ll point out that most religions have a creation story that their choice of God created the earth.

  35. There are so many things wrong with the passage that I want to shoot myself for reading. I want you to read all of this before you go to the next, because this is important to religion, not just the two in question. First of all, Wicca and Witchcraft are one and the same. Two, we do not believe in ANY god, but in the fact that there is spirit and soul in everything that is around us. Three, “A deity that can be destroyed is not worth worshipping”? BULL!!! The very fact that it is fragile and destroyable shows that not only is spirit fragile, but so is life. Four,I want you to tell me with all the science in your body. Were we created, or did we evolve? I thought so. Evolution exists!!! Five, “Creator vs. Created” has nothing to do with our religion! There is no “Creator” in question, only spirit in what has EVOLVED! Six, we do not “cast curses” which will be sent back by your interpretation known as “God”. We only mix ingredients and do so at certain times to heal, not to harm. Seven, you got the fact right that we do not worship or believe in the devil, for giving evil a name is giving it power, and powerful evil is never wanted. You gave evil a name, so you gave evil power. Eight, have you ever even seen any of the “abundant evidence” you mentioned? No, the 10 Commandments do not count, as they could have just as easily been faked. Nine, “the wrath to come” in question is death, as you experience in time, too. Ten, have you ever read the Pagan sacred book, talked to a Pagan about their religion, or ever even seen a Pagan interact with Nature? Exactly. Eleven, you can’t just point a finger in our faces and say that “spirits told us that Jesus never existed” because of two reasons. 1- We do not commune with spirits of any kind. 2- Over 96% of us believe in the existence of Jesus, for there is biological proof of his existence, only not of your “God”. Twelve, a special request for all of you that say that Pagans are Satanic, evil, or devil worshipping with our pentacle, F**K YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • JustAGuy says:

      Such a sweet and loving response from a harmless little worshipper. Your final words reveal the lack of love or tolerance in your heart that you boast of having.

      You don’t name evil because you know it gives it power? That is interesting. If it is not there, it is not there. The power is in the darkness. Evil exists and it is aggressive. Evil hates the light, because the light exposes the evil, which can then be defeated through the power of the One True God, who created the one who became the father of all evil.

      There are many brands of paganism with many beliefs attached.

    • warrior daughter says:

      Fact Jesus loves you and gave His life for you.

      Fact There is no second or third or fourth round to life ..You have just one life and it is very precious to God…

      Fact Jesus is able to forgive each and every sin but you must come to Him

      Fact Your language shows much anger and your anger comes from hurts that have been inflicted on you and you choose to keep these hurts….

      Fact Nothing is too hard for God to do and He is willing and able to accept you no matter what you have said or done…

      Fact There is only one True God all the other gods are determined to destroy your soul…

      Fact Stop being so stubborn and admit that you have a emptiness in you that you have tried to fill but nothing you have sought has helped…

      • Warrior daughter,
        Everything that you claim is a “FACT” is merely your opinions. It’s your belief based off of a faith that neither you nor anyone else can truly prove. A fact is something along the lines of: “If I jump up in the air gravity will pull me back to earth.” Don’t believe me? Try it. Can you prove your “Facts” the same way? I can show you that gravity is a real “FACT because it can be demonstrated again and again anywhere on earth with the same results. Your facts can’t be. If they could be everyone would truly be Christian. Just something to think about.
        Blessing,
        Adam j.

        • JustAGuy says:
          fact
            /fækt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fakt] Show IPA
          –noun
          1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
          2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
          3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.

          Just so we get our facts straight ;-)

          The Lord has proven Himself time and again to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear it. Only the last “fact” given by Warrior Daughter was not a fact.

          Love,
          Timothy

    • Give evil a name?? Honey he allready had a name looooooooong before you and I were born.

    • michael says:

      I wrote this piece a long time after reading materials written by professed followers of Wicca and by followers of the Witchcraft religion. To you, the two may be one and the same, but who made YOU an authority on the subject? Honestly, think about it. There are OTHERS who wish to use words in DIFFERENT ways to you. They may be “HIGHLY OFFENDED” at your statements also, so perhaps you should retract them :-). Satanists, for example, practice witchcraft, as do many other religionists of various shapes and sizes, but not all who practice witchcraft are satanists. And some like to call Witchcraft “their religion”. Understand you do not, and cannot know everything about the way others wish to name their religions and practices. If you behave as if you do, then it is YOU who are ignorant.

      I think that your particular version of paganism was made up quite recently, because all the Wiccans I spoke to believe very much in “the goddess” and somewhat in “the god”. I can’t possibly address all the possible belief systems in paganism with one article, because there are so many variations. You can’t claim to represent paganism as a whole, but only what your particular beliefs are within your particular pagan system.

      Why are you worried about me commenting on the foolishness of worshipping gods that are fragile and can be destroyed, since you say you do not believe in ANY of them?

      As far as evolution is concerned, to me it is pure wishful thinking. I have a science degree from a reputable Australian university, and my father was an associate professor in Applied Mathematics at Sydney University. He is an expert in astronomy, cosmology and has read a lot of biochemistry as well. We both reject evolution, as do many well read scientists. Not all bow down to the politically correct doctrines of Darwinism. You should read the other side if you care to know. The doctrine of Evolution is not science per se, in my view it is merely the outgrowth of a Philosophy. There is a clutching at straws going on by materialist philosophers and a lot of “just so” declarations made by people who cannot prove their interpretations of the data. Mutations occur, but as Sir Fred Hoyle showed in his paper “The Mathematics of Evolution”, its virtually impossible for them to produce any kind of significant change that macro-evolution requires.

      If you want to know about the abundant evidence for Jesus Christ, you’ll have to take the time to read and view relevant videos. Have a read of the testimonies on this site and other site, look up Christian miracles on youtube, interact with more people, and you’ll find out. Read Christian books discussing the resurrection of Christ, or even what is on this site on that subject.

      I think giving evil a name is very useful. Leaving it un-named means that you can’t talk about it. If you can’t talk about it as evil, you can’t stop it. That is why even secular governments have LAW books. If they didn’t, how could you ever convict anyone of a crime. Please, start thinking. Don’t just believe everything you have been fed.

      I imagine there are countless books written by Pagans. I don’t have the time to read them. Its like this: if I read the book you recommend, some other pagan would tell me that it was wrong in so many places anyway. So whats the use?

      Just because you SAY you do not commune with spirits of any kind does not mean that you don’t. It is the “spirits” that impart the thoughts that you might think come from “the Universe” or something like that. Its just that YOU don’t see them for what they are. Other pagans, like one I talked with a week ago on the street, do believe in spirits, but don’t think they are evil.

      Finally there is no need to be gross or insulting or use foul language to abuse those you are angry at. When you behave like that, you don’t inspire much confidence. Its hard to avoid the conclusion that you are an emotionally immature person with a lot of bitterness and unresolved anger inside.

      • I agree with Michael 100% here! I hate when that happens…LOL!
        Look there are as many variations on Paganism as there are on Christianity. Paganism has no “POPE” or even a “BIBLE” to claim it’s this way or else! It’s one of the very beautiful things about Paganism. Not one of us (Pagans) can claim anything for anyone else, it just won’t fly. Michael is also right when he admonishes you for your vagueness. It proves nothing and it helps nothing. STOP DOING IT PLEASE! You give not only yourself a bad name but the rest of us as well. It’s not fair. We Pagans do not WANT or NEED persons who resort to foul speech as a spokesperson or even a member of any of our groups. Michael and all other Christians here, please forgive this person. Most Pagans are not like that. I won’t touch on evolution right now, not enough time so I’ll save that for another time. I know that Paganism and Christianity are going to have to Co-exist there for it would do all of us good to get along even if we disagree. When I was last here things were a bit heated and so I wanted to end it on a positive note or as much as a positive note as I could leave with. I hope that Michael understood that. I think we can all get along civilly.
        Many blessings,
        Adam

    • Bellis- thank you for clarifying your passionately held beliefs.

      Days of darkness come to all of us, when what we hold to passionately are shaken. When that day comes for you then read Psalm 23. Jesus is the Shepherd spoken of in this Psalm.

      Right now you might see Jesus as irritating but later when that time of darkness comes remember, Jesus died for all, you too. On that day don’t hesitate to approach Jesus for He is compassionate and mighty to save.

      Until then- Go well!

      Peer.

    • moonwolf23 says:

      Bellis you are very incorrect.

      I’ve been Wiccan, am now a witch and have been an outercourt in training to be Gardnerian.

      Firstly why would you disrepect others of another faith, it does not lend credence to your beliefs or make Pagans to be positively viewed. I’d suggest you read Triumph of the moon by Ronald Hutton.

      Now all Wiccans may be witches but not all witches are Wiccan so therefore, now Wicca and Witchcraft are not one and the same. I suggest you read livejournal’s non fluffy pagans. Or read Non wiccan witch on lj before painting Wicca and Witchcraft as one and the same.

      Thirdly just because you believe one thing does not give you the right to Pagan Bible beat a Christian over the head with your beliefs. You have an OPINION not a fact that what you believe is true.

  36. Us Pagans that read this should be HIGHLY offended from the lack of knowledge, and public exploit of false myths. I am highly offended, and request that you remove it from the website.

    • michael says:

      Remove your own beliefs from your website if you have one and tell your friends to do the same, if you think that people should delete their own pages because someone else finds them “highly offensive”.

      Get off your high horse.

  37. Christians and Wiccans/Pagans, Lend me your ear ( Or eyes since you cant really hear me over the internet =D) Does it really matter what we believe in? Should we really discriminate due to those we worship? In BOTH beliefs of Christians and wiccans/pagans, state that we are all brothers and sisters in an odd way. (Obviously not physically because that would be something akward to Know about your lover). Anyway, it shouldn’t matter what we believe in, as long as we have something to have faith IN.
    For example, atheists believe in science. Christians belive in god and christ. muslims believe in allah, and wiccans/Pagans believe in one, or multiple god/goddess. I’m sensing a connection here, the act of belief. Those who believe in Jahova, are no different from those who believe in the goddess or Zeus. Why? Because we both believe that they exist. I feel that in our ever changing world, we have been sadly thrown into confusion, and distrust. The only thing we can trust, or be sure about. is our religions. If we lose this, What will we have then? This question I cannot answer, can you?
    To conclude my statement. I will not tell all of you my religion. because to me, it doesn’t matter. to me, all that matters is we’re all humans. And since we aren’t dimwitted beasts. Humans should get along.

    • lookinforacity says:

      Stacy

      you say:
      “I will not tell all of you my religion.”

      At this point Stacy I think I should tell you, that the best way to keep your secret, would be by PROOF READING your posts.

      then you say:
      “Those who believe in Jahova, are no different from those who believe in the goddess or Zeus. Why?” “(((Because “WE” both believe that they exist.)))”

      Busted you little wicken/pagen you. Matt.12:34 Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
      Remember GOD LOVES YOU anyway! :>)

      JIM

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Hi Stacy,

      We all have a need to believe in someone higher than ourselves. Why? Because we were created by someone greater than ourselves. The Bible tells us that someone has “set eternity in their hearts.” Whoever created us has placed an innate desire to seek Him.

      Now, if the God of the Bible is our Creator, and its account is clear that all the other gods are not able to save, should he have a right to be upset at our stubborn refusal to accept Him for who He is? It is also natural that the counterfeit gods should proclaim a message of “it doesn’t matter, we are all equal spirits,” since they being nothing in comparison to God, have no loss of reputation, only the gaining of stature.

      “The act of belief” as you succinctly call it, is a proof of One who desires us to believe. There is only one Creator, in three persons. “And God said, ‘let US make man in OUR image.” One God, with a plurality only found in the Godhead of the Bible. “the ‘act of belief’” is the spiritual homing signal God has placed in our hearts. Only as we read the Bible and pray to the God of the Bible, does our heart find significance.

      The fact you are able to espouse any number of beliefs as equal, demonstrates you have not come upon the true God. Having been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, I have had my sins washed away. Do you know how wonderful it feels to have the burden of all past sin washed away… not stuffed or redefined or papered over with a shallow belief system of my own choosing?

      I cannot answer those questions for you. But I am sharing my own experience, not to mention the supernatural healing in my home. You can read Our Story and read about what the Lord Jesus Christ did for us… even how he audilbly spoke to my wife on two occasions a year apart … first at the beginning and lastly at the end of her being healed of the incurable that our involvement in eastern religious practice had made much worse.

      Stacy, I love your heart. I know you are trying to make sense out of the spirit world and not be judgmental. Some Christians have an edge about their ‘need to defend’ Jesus. He has not called us to defend Him. “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants, fight.”

      I pray you would be able to receive these words with the gentleness with which they are written. You have been hurt and wounded enough in this life, I am sure. Jesus came and heals the broken hearted. I pray you may find the peace your heart is longing for in Him.

      Sincerely,
      Tim

  38. Who conducted the Witch Hunt and the Salem Witch Trials (both real events in history) and helped, if not started the persecution of many innocents? Oh, yes. It was the Christians. Now let me ask YOU something. What have the Paganists ever done to the Christian religion, physically, or mentally?

    • JustAGuy says:

      Mentally you just defiled me with your last post that told me to do some ungodly thing to myself! That is abusive language by all recognized standards. You have condemned your own arguments. Paganism is not innocent, nor is witchcraft. You take actions of hundreds of years ago by a few and make ALL who call on the name of Christ responsible? I don’t think so.

      Get to know Jesus Christ. He is coming and you want to be on the right side when He gets here. He has the right to demand obedience because He is God and He created all things. You are worshipping the created and not the Creator. Surrender your pride, and let Him show you what true love is all about.

    • jesseedavis says:

      Firstly, Michael if there is any thing that is true in your original article, please for this person’s sake and others of the sort, give resources. If they must be condemned, then it must not be by our opinions, but by the testimony of the Lord.

      Bellis, if you would, give us the information about this so that we may condemn it properly. :)

      As for all of witchcraft, Wicca, paganism, the Lord God says to you this:

      10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
      11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
      12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
      - Deuteronomy 19:10-12

      19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
      20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
      21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
      - Galatians 5:19-21

      But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
      - Revelation 21:8

      Thus far, all that you do, regardless of what, is condemned and earns you this second death.

      The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
      - Mark 1:15

      Repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
      - Acts 26:20

      38Repent, and be baptized…in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
      39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
      - Acts 2:38-39

      Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
      - John 3:3

      Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
      - John 3:5

      Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.
      - Acts 16:31

      If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
      - Matthew 16:24

      Bellis, repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ whom you bear witness of yourself, saying, “2- Over 96% of us believe in the existence of Jesus, for there is biological proof of his existence, only not of your “God”.” Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him.

      The evidence of God is in all of creation, it is in even you. If you need evidence of the existence of God then you will find it only when you seek it. For it is written, “Search and you shall find.”

      I trust my God that He shall work in you to draw you to Himself by His love and grace as He reproves you of the fullness of your sin. Take these words I have given to you to heart.

      • PassingBy says:

        That’s what your religiojn is only good for. To condemn on something you people can not find proof. The bible isn’t proof. It’s written by man.

        In defense of Pagans, it’s the oldest religion. Their holidays was stolen by the christians. Jesus and Mary story.. same as Isis and Horus.
        Easter (Christian) Ostara (Pagan)
        Christmas (Christian) Yule (Pagan)

        I’m a full blown athiest. I prefer to see some validating proof. So far, if I was to pick a religion, it would be Pagans. Why? They don’t condemn anyone. They are peaceful people. You don’t see them condemning anyone. Blowing up federal buildings, flying planes to towers, killing people and then passing the bible to the survivors. Yeah, I know what goes on over seas.
        Christianity and Islamic are the most hateful and most dispicable religion in the whole world. They destroy, condemn, fight, force, and so on.
        My money is on the Pagans.

        But until then, religion is man made. Pure and simple.

        • You say that your celebrations have been stolen from the christians.I will tell you something i’ve recently learnt.MANY emperors,roman catholics and pops as well as many other powerful people of the world,have been PRETENDING to be Christians over the history for their own profits and reasons (long story).The people who decided that Christians should celebrate Christmas,Easter,Halloween and those who decided that we should pray on several saints and pay extra homage to Mary,were clearly not christians.They were people who still believed in paganism,but decided to decieve and change some facts of the holy christian books such as the bible,in order to make the christians fall into their own beliefs.Search for example about the great emperor Constantine.He has a lot hidden under his sleeve,and he had a very good reason to decide to be ‘friendly’ to the Christians of his era.So to answer your question the TRUE Christianity did not take any of your celebrations.If it was up to us,believe we would never even mention those celebrations in our faith.Those who pretend to be christians though and know very well the events in the ‘backround’,are like you.Pagans (no offence).And yes religion is man made.But the instict to believe in the one and true God,and the instict of love towards Jesus,is also true and pure.And religion is mostly what is currently going on this world.Organised religions,neopaganism,churches who take advantage of people’s faith,and the list goes on.True Christians have nothing to do with decieving organised religions. :)

        • warrior daughter says:

          So why did you stop in if you were just passing by? So you say you are an atheist { from a Greek word that means without god} but an atheist belives in no god but you would be a pagan if you would choose …Can’t be a pagan if you are a atheist…Many atheists will say “I don’t believe in God & besides that I hate Him!”…You have a lot of hatred in you & that hatred will manifest itself in all areas of your life {relationships, health, addictions, self hatred, etc}…

          May you come to relization that God loves you & you cannot stop Him from loving you…

        • lookinforacity says:

          Hi PassingBy

          I can fully understand why you would be down on religion, because of your Catholic background. But that’s not a valid reason for casting all Religion in the same light is it?
          Owing to the fact you are just a novice at this Atheist thing, here you are today, full of anger and hate.
          Are these thoughts, beliefs you have your own, I think not, who has tutored you, who is advising you on your reading material, because we have heard it all before, it all sounds so very familiar.
          You need to step back from this new found belief in non-belief ie, (religion), and see, there isn’t any future in it.
          We can make allowances for your being a new born Atheist, a babe in non-belief so to speak.
          But in order for you to get the truth about the subject you want to sound knowledgeable of, I would first recommend your taking the time to read the Bible, before your attempting to criticize it, and it’s beliefs. Otherwise it just sounds like a tear on the Catholic Religion, and the things you were taught by them.
          You can’t really make any valid points against anything Christian, when you do not know the subject, can you? So make it simple on yourself, only read the New Testament. While reading the New Testament, do an outline for all of your arguments, then you will have a tenable starting point.
          Hope this helps you on your journey.

          May God open your heart to the truth
          JIM

        • Perhaps someone needs to be corrected. When Christ said that “Unless one is born again, he will not see the kingdom of GOD”, he meant that you were to confess, believe and live in your confession that you have partaken a new life. Confession is not a mere thing that someone thinks that you just utter and you receive salvation. What Jesus needs is true confession from the inner walls of the heart and mind .
          Now comprehend me right here, being born again is not religion. Paul stated it clearly that it is faith that makes a man right with GOD. Man is the one who formed religion for his own motives. Why do I say this? In every society, you will never miss finding a chaotic and troublesome person. Like wise some individuals have wanted to mislead others because they feel life is at the brim of destruction so they form what will mislead others.
          Wen someone says that I am born again, it means he/she has died and risen again with Christ and now Christ lives in Him. That is what it means. Many have been made to think that Christianity is all about religion. True Christianity is not religion. In fact all those who participate in Religious wars are only claimers of the truth but they are far behind the truth and so you do not have to come to a genera conclusion. Remember satan is not a kid that he will just look on as the children of GOD advance. In Job 1 he was asked that where are you from. Surprisingly he said that “I am from roaming through the earth and going to and fro in it”What does this imply, as he roams, he makes the minds of some people confused hence he plants in them thoughts of confusion ad that is how we have ended up getting such people i the church. The LORD tells us to love one another so that is why we stay around them in order for us to influence them to goodness and life in JESUS CHRIST.
          So to conclude it is confused people who have made Christianity to look as though it is religion. And for you. GOD dearly loves you. He says that turn from atheism and come to righteousness as you confess your sins.

      • moonwolf23 says:

        Jesse, there is no more evidence of YOUR God then there is of mine. Try proving Jehova exists to a militant atheist some time and you’ll see how flimsy the “evidence” of faith exists.

        If your going to quote Deuteronomy you may want to be aware that Jesus basically made it null and void. Otherwise you’d be required to wear only one type of cloth as mixing cloth was a grave sin and a whole other mess of ultra orthodox Jewish stuff that unless your a Jew you have no context on how imp it is.

    • moonwolf23 says:

      Bellis, you may want to refresh your memory about Nero and what he did to the early Christians, or what many of the Roman Emperors thought of the early Christians.

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