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Water Baptism Discussion
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Baptism
To claim that sprinkling, etc is NOT Baptism is totally unBiblical, and undermines the true characteristic - Faith. It is the symbolism and heart attitude that matters, not the procedure.
The dunking hard-liners fail to admit that nowhere in the Bible are clear instructions given about Baptism - except to do it. The denominations that have variations in practise are NOT being unBiblical.
In fact:
1. Baptism was seen by the NT church in much the same way as circumcision was in the OT. Babies were circumcised, and then adults could either choose for themselves or rebel. Therefore, the covenant nature is allowed for in the Bible. Remember, much of the NT was written in the context of New Believers - there is little instruction or wisdom on how to deal with those raised in the knowledge of God. The "adult-only" crowd have no idea how to manage those like me who have always known the Lord. According to them I am not "really" saved.
2. Baptism by immersion is still the preferred practise according to the Anglican prayer book. Sprinkling only happened because with the high child-mortality rates in the Middle ages it was pretty stupid to be dunking babies in mid-winter.
3. Similarly, Baptising babies was seen in a covenantal sense as being necessary as recognising they were part of God's family. Nothing in Scripture contradicts this.
Much of the problem in the Church over this issue arises from people being dogmatic about interpretation - the Book does not say, "When you Baptise, do this...". All of the relevant passages have to be interpreted, and ancient meanings are not always the same as modern, when it comes to translations of words.
The biggest issue here is that it brings division to the body over the performance of a practise. Jesus gave very few specific instructions on HOW to do things. In His healing ministry, he was infinitely creative - he didn't follow methods, but followed the plan of the Father in each circumstance. So we have at least 3 different methods used to heal the blind.
God takes divisiveness VERY seriously. We have to find ways to work together to bring the Kingdom to the Lost, and telling people they're "not really baptised", because it was done when they were babies, undermines faith and brings division to the Body.
It needs to stop. until and unless the Lord has spoken very clearly to you, actual revelation, we need to let this petty fussing die, and get on with the mission. Flavours of Christianity are quite acceptable - we do NOT have to all do the same thing.
PauLD
Re: Baptism
Having been born into a Catholic family, I was baptized as a child.
I left the Catholic Church when I was 22.
I accepted Christ as my personal savior at 24.
Then without any influence from others, at 26 the Holy Spirit lead me to the understanding, I needed to be baptized, I do not now, or did I then, look at the process as becoming (RE - Baptized), because I wasn't reaffirming my belief in Christ, I was acknowledging my new life.
I did not feel as though my baptism when I was a child, was truly a valid baptism, because I didn't even know what was taking place, or why.
Therefore as a sign of my new found faith in Christ, it was the next logical step in the progression of a life as a Christian, I became born again.
I have found since that time, baptism is the opening of the door, to our Life in the Spirit, without baptism and our understanding of it in our lives, we can neither SEE nor ENTER the Kingdom of God, as Jesus explained to Nicodemus.
The Catholic Church teaches nothing about becoming alive to the spirit, or walking in the spirit.
I have attempted to explain, that solely by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, I came to the knowledge of how important baptism is, in the life of the believer. The fact I had been baptized as a child never entered into the equation, I never questioned whether or not I should, whether or not it would be the right thing to do, it became something that the Holy Spirit impressed upon my heart as something I NEEDED to do.
Having never attended a baptism before it seemed perfectly logical that immersion would be the way baptism should be done. I would have felt strange as an adult being sprinkled, while a baby or very young child can be held.
But that is a moot point as we all know, baptism is for the believer, and that would not include a baby, or very young child.
So as I said before, Immersion is the most logical way for baptism to be accomplished, unless there isn't a ready source of water available.
Maybe it would be advisable for the person doing the baptizing, to teach just what the purpose of baptism accomplishes in a believers life, and the reason why immersion is used rather than sprinkling.
We shouldn't just get people saved, then throw them into the nearest lake, or stick their head under a hose.
JIM
"The dunking hard-liners fail
I agree with you that we get into pettiness and make stumbling blocks out of our theologies at times. I would like to challenge or discuss a couple of statements you made, however, in the process of making the main point that I agree with.
"The dunking hard-liners fail to admit that nowhere in the Bible are clear instructions given about Baptism - except to do it."
I do not consider myself to be a dunking hardliner, but when the word "baptizo"itself means, "to make fully wet" and the references to it include going down to a body of water and "coming out" of it, I have to wonder why you are taking a hard stance against people who draw the obvious conclusion from clearly written scripture? This statement seems disingenuous on your part, or your own understanding of scripture is quite limited. Why would you deride a part of the body of Christ in such a way?
"telling people they're "not really baptised", because it was done when they were babies, undermines faith and brings division to the Body."
What "faith" exactly is it undermining? If our faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ, we will do as He commands. "If you love me, keep my commandments." The question is not, "will it upset their faith?" it is "is there faith in the right place to begin with?"
If a person's faith is in the right place, then we being in the right place, will not subvert it. If a person's faith is in a lie, then the lies should be pointed out.
Personally, if someone is adament that their being baptized as an infant has saved them, I would encourage them to recommit themselves to the Lord as an adult and to affirm it is a decision of their heart before the Lord. As a baby, they did not act out the command to be baptized, it was acted out on them. Why not do of one's own free will, what God has asked them to do, once one is old enough to do it for themselves?
I would let God judge their heart, but surely their heart will have something to say about whether they personally wish to 'inconvenience' themselves for just a moment in time by being baptized in the manner of our Lord and Savior. If I don't have time to die to myself in that small way, have I really died to myself in the first place? That is what baptism, spiritually, is all about.
water baptism
Too often we think using much words will convince others. But the truth is the Holy Spirit must do the revealing and convincing. Christians can argue till they're blue in the face about water baptism, but the bottom line is each much be convinced in his own heart/mind. If you feel led to get baptized after you get saved then by all means DO IT! But don't listen to those who try to tell you that baptism is a thing of the past if you sense the Holy Spirit telling you otherwise.
Convinced...?
I thought it was more important to obey the teachings of Jesus!
What did he say?
I thought it was made pretty clear in Matthew 28:18-20
Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.
Peter reafirming in Acts 2:38
Phillip also in Acts 8:12 which led to Peter and John coming down to finish the job in Acts 8:15-17
Phillip also followed the pattern in Acts 8:36-
Peter further in Acts 10 asked the question "what is stopping these people from being baptised?"
Paul in Acts 19:3- shows that all need to be baptised
Romans 6:3 shows that it is the only way to die with Jesus (to sin)
Finally in Galations 3:27 shows that it is only through baptism that we put on Christ.
The final decision is yours: Do I obey the scripture (God's commandments) or not?
In Christ Chris
convinced? water baptism
Chris, It is important to understand Jesus teachings in its proper perspective.
Matthew 28:18-20: The great commission is in effect but, there is no where in the scriptures that they baptized in the formula; in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean it is not true.
There are three baptisms in the Book of Acts related to salvation.
1. The baptism of John
2. The baptism of the Lord Jesus. This is not the same as when they baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus such as Peter in Acts 10:48.
3. The baptism in the Spirit
a). The baptism of John was in Jesus day and under the age of the law and it was done in water
b). The baptism of Jesus was the great commission because it deals with salvation according to the death, burial, and resurrection. This was after his death, burial, resurrection and ascension into heaven. This was and is a spiritual baptism, not physical.
c). The Spirit baptism is when they they spoke in tongues. This is not to be confused with the Spirit in salvation. In salvation, the Spirit is the agent that puts Jesus in the body in the act of Salvation. This is what the one baptism is that Paul talks about. Jesus is the agent that puts the Spirit in the body which was what John said, He (John) baptized with water but, Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost.
Phillip would have never baptized the eunuch if the eunuch wouldn't have brought it up. Phillip said it was ok as long as he believed in Jesus Christ as the Son Of God. Before that, Phillip was explaining the scriptures according to Jesus.
Peter in chapter 10 was talking to Cornelius and the gentiles. They had been saved and filled with the Holy Ghost. Verse 43; To him give all the prophets witness that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. This is the great commission. Jesus is the authority that recognizes the Father and the Spirit. This had nothing to do with water baptism. After this the Holy Ghost fell on them. When it came to water baptism Peter asked if it was alright before they were baptized in water.
He wouldn't have asked if it was mandatory.
Paul was doing the purification laws in Acts 21 which dealt with water baptism but, he said the Gentiles were not obligated to do that, Acts 21:25. You have got to understand that the Jew were given the law forever but, the gentiles were never under the law. This is why water baptism has to do with Jewish ritual. That is not a bad thing or a wrong thing of that it violates the covenant or anything. The Jews are to be jews not gentiles, and gentiles are to be gentiles. We are not cultural jews and they are not cultural gentiles.
One has to understand the proper context of the scriptures and set them side by side and reconcile them together in harmony because the bible cannot contradict itself.
I don't discourage people who want to be baptized in water as a sign of good conscience, but, it is not mandatory according to the scripture.
The extremes of the water baptism is that plenty of people get baptized in water and think they are saved and continue to live like the devil.
Another extreme is that some denominations are proud of how many are baptized each year in their church. This is the first thing they say and yet, many live carnal lives and think they are in the club. This is like the Israelites thought process in Ezekiel. They believed that since they were the children of the covenants and they were safe even if they sinned and didn't have to confess their sins. And God said they were wrong.
The final decision is yours: You are to obey the scriptures in its proper perspective and reconcile the scriptures together so they harmonize together.
God Bless! Jerry Kelso
posts
The posts you are replying to are over a year old.
Baptism
I got baptized because that's what Jesus did. Did I have to? Probably not, but I wanted to because to me it was public profession among the believers that I was worshiping with, sort of saying " This is who I am"
water baptism
Chris and anyone else, People misunderstand the time factor of these contexts.
There were different baptisms that dealt with water and otherwise in the old testament according to Jewish rituals in the law. In Jesus days, there were some rituals that were not necessarily in the law that was put on the people by the leaders and then some rituals that were under the law that the leaders did legalistically.
Matthew says that Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. This was the righteousness of the law because he lived under the Mosaic Law. John said, He came to manifest himself to Israel. This was so, when Israel recognized him as the Messiah they would be eligible to go into the Kingdom of Heaven which was to be the millenial reign that the jews were promised to be the Head of all the Nations. Read Isaiah 2:2-4, Zechariah 14, etc. Luke said, he was 30 years of age which, was the Jewish age to go into service for God.
The great commission in Matthew 28:19 is in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is never mentioned in the early church. This doesn't necessarily mean anything. The Holy Spirit is the agent to put Jesus into the body at the moment of salvation and Jesus is the authority that recognizes the Father and the Holy Spirit because, Paul said, there is no other name by which we can be saved. This verse is basically talking about the spiritual baptism.
1. Baptismal Regeneration- If it was a commandment or a prerequisite to salvation then, Paul
would have sinned in the Corinthian Church. Paul said, he only baptized Crispus and Gaius and
the Household of Stephanos and he could'nt remember anyone else he baptized and said Christ
didn't send him to baptize in water but, to preach the gospel.
Also, in Acts 10:48 after Cornelius and the gentiles had been saved and baptized into the Holy Ghost Peter asked if anyone would forbid the gentiles to baptized in water. If it was a commandment or prerequisite to salvation he wouldn't have asked this question. It wasn't until the
jews said it was alright that he commanded them to be baptized in water.
In Acts 21, Paul was accused of not keeping the Mosaic Law. They wanted him to purify with 4 other jews and that he did. In verse 25, Paul reinterated that the Gentiles were not obligated to do this, which was water baptism. Purification laws concerns water baptism. So though I wouldn't discourage any body from water baptism for a good conscience but, one must understand that
every instance of baptism in water is a jewish ritual under the law. There is no account that I
know of that a gentile baptizes other gentiles in water according to the new testament. Peter
spoke to basically Jewish Christians that understood the water baptism typified salvation according to the death, burial, and resurrection which is a spiritual resurrection.
2. One must remember that the new testament church was jewish the first 8-10 years until
Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean. This means that the jews still basically in
proselyting gentiles. Also,it means that the body of Christ of Jews and Gentiles in one body alike
on the same level started at this time and not on the Day of Pentecost.
I believe if you read Paul's epistles to the gentiles, you will find that water baptism wasn't
significantly taught as a doctrine at all. Hebrews 6:1, is talking about old covenant doctrines. If
those Hebrew christians went back into Judaism there was no salvation and they would be lost
forever if they stayed there.
People have to understand that Jesus 1st commission that dealt with the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to the Jews was not a message to the church. Matthew 10:6-7. Jesus had to
fulfill the Mosaic Law, and he lived and taught the law. It wasn't until the Jews rejected him as
a nation that Jesus started telling his disciples about him dying and rising again and that the Holy
Spirit would come when he left and that the gospel was his death, burial, and resurrection. Paul asserts the same truth in 1 Corinthians 15.
The scriptural context and history points to water baptism as basically a Jewish ritual from under the Mosaic Law. The gentiles never had the Mosaic Law but, the Law for the Jews was forever. This doesn't mean the mosaic law wasn't abolished but, that is another subject.
Feel free to water baptize for a good conscience if you'd like and if you mean it but, remember this; for anyone going to seed on this may end up like the Corinthians and become a vice which Paul didn't like at all. As essential to salvation there is no scriptural basis. We are saved by grace through faith according to the revelation and message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ which is his finished work. As far as baptismal regeneration or even as a good concscience is because of the fact that they were baptizing in water such as the account of Philip and the eunuch then, they must recognize it was a Jewish ritual under the Mosaic law.
Even though, Philip baptized the Eunuch, it was the Eunuch who was reading the old testament and Philip said he would baptize him and honor his request but, he first had to believe in Jesus.
I will stop here. This is scriptural context and food for thought. People don't need to be condemned about whether they do this or how they do it. The great commission is basically a spiritual baptism. The water baptism is due to the Jewish ritual of baptism which Paul said we were not obligated to do. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
baptism posts
Im not even sure the users you are replying to get on this site much anymore
water baptism
looking for hope, thanks. Obviously, I didn't see the dates. lol. jerry kelso
baptism posts2
Just didn't want you wondering why you weren't getting a response from the person you were questioning. We all dig up all subjects on here just sometimes the people who made the original post aren't around much if at all.
Public profession?
I'm glad you got baptised, however even a superficial understanding of baptism would never call it a 'public profession' and if you one day you decide to study the scriptures about its importance you will find out that it is essential for all believers to be baptised.
After all how can can you 'die' to sin if you are not 'buried' with Christ and 'raised' to newness of life?
Those who are not baptised are likened to a baby that is born but not washed. Would you be a friend of a person who walks around with afterbirth still hanging off them years after they were born, saying to themselves "I don't think it is important to be washed?"
Shalom,
Chris
water baptism
Chris, 1. You have given no scriptural proof. I gave you the history and context of the scriptures on the subject and have reconciled the scriptures together.
2. The only scripture you alluded to would be Romans 6:4. This is a spiritual baptism and just like physical circumcision doesn't save you spiritually, physical water doesn't grant you spiritual salvation. Dying to sin is found in Romans 6:10 When he died, There is no water in that scripture or an illusion.
3. I know this is touchy for jews just like the abolishment of the law because they have the law forever. These scriptures can be reconciled according to the scriptures in their proper context and dispensations and covenants. I am not demeaning water baptism for jews or even Gentiles who want to baptize in water, but, by and large, according to the scriptural context and history is not a commandment. Spiritual baptism is a different thing because Jesus is the only name by which one can be saved.
4. As far as your illustration; I'm sorry, but, it doesn't hold water except, in your own context, not the bible.. Salvation is spiritual not physical.
I have to go but, this is bible not a personal context or what has been taught by tradition. You can believe whatever and that is your prerogative.
The best thing to do is to answer to the scriptures and their context that I gave. God bless! Jerry Kelso
Re: Public Profession
Hi Redbuck
You say
"After all how can can you 'die' to sin if you are not 'buried' with Christ and 'raised' to newness of life?"
Therefore if we do 'die' to sin through baptism, and thereby gain newness of life, does this then also mean we will still sin?
This afterbirth you speak of, what would it actually be, if it wasn't washed away through baptism?
Be Blessed
JIM
Correct!
Sorry Jim,
But I directing that comment at those who don't believe one must be baptised.
Should I be baptised again?
Hi,I always loved God, but did not always obey. In early 2009 I began a 21 day fast. I wanted to grow closer to God and seek Him above anything else. I was baptized in water in one month later. I made a decision to come to Christ and be obedient to God's ways. Then, shortly after I backslid and regretted my sin. I comfessed this sin, repented and ask God for forgiveness. It seemed like as soon as I made the decision to come to Chist, temptation began. I felt attacked! Then I commited the same sin once more. I felt so horrible and made a decision that I would never repeat that again. I once again confessed and asked God to please forgive me, but this time I asked for protection against temptation. And I have not repeated since. I try each day to fully commit to God. I am just wondering if should be baptized again. Are there certain things that should cause someone to choose to be baptized again?
Re: Water Baptism , should I be baptised again?
I get the feeling that the Pentecostals and the Evangelicals have the
same attitude and approach to Water Baptism ,
as the Jews had to Circumcision.
The Pentecostals and the Evangelicals cry ," Water Baptism
and no less !!!" as did the Jews , "Circumcision and no less"
Shouldn't Baptism be of the heart and not of the body ?
(To wash clean the heart , .......and not the physical body)
Gimme your thoughts , Saints.
I think it is time a modern day Paul came along and sorted out the
issue once and for all.
Cheers
Vikki
My thoughts
I think that we believers spend tooo much time on the differences that we have and not enough time focusing on the really important things like the times that we are living in. Do you realize that at just any moment Jesus could return for the Church? Imagine how silly we will look if we are found arguing over differences in interpretation of doctrine. The most important thing is the Salvation of souls and the renewal of sinful hearts that don't know the grace that was provided on the Cross. Vikki is right when she says the "washing of the heart" it's the heart of humanity that has to first be cleansed. I don't discourage baptism, but I don't think it's a requirement for entering the Kingdom. Example " the thief'
RE: My thoughts
onecross
You say
"I don't discourage baptism, but"
"I don't think it's a requirement for entering the Kingdom."
"Example the thief'"
The following is what Jesus does think "IS" a requirement, for both Seeing, and Entering His Kingdom.
Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Next
Using your logic, when you use the THIEF for your example, as to why someone does not have to be baptized as a requirement, in order to enter the Kingdom of God.
Notice in this following passage from Luke.
Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
This thief, even though he did say, "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." he no where confessed, or asked for forgiveness of his sins.
So as I said before, using your logic.
Do you also believe, someone does not have to ask for forgiveness as a requirement to gain salvation?
The thief, was nothing more than the exception to the rule, and not "the rule" for setting doctrine.
Can we not understand, that this being a unique circumstance, and involving Jesus Himself, that it was an out of the ordinary event which took place? So Jesus, being God, took it upon Himself to extend to this thief, an extraordinary blessing.
Reply
I was making reference to Baptism not salvation. I DO believe that we need to ask forgiveness for sin the point I was trying to make was simply that the act of baptism itself won't block you from entering into His presence.
Water Baptism
I'm not sure where the denominational aspect came into this, but I am seeking biblical answers to the question that I posted because I do not know. When I went through this, I was newly converted and now at this point committed to Christ. The question of re-baptism is on my mind and I am posting to gain understanding.
re-baptism
Dear Nata,
I would first ask you to think about the first time that you were Baptized. Were you then truly saved? Did you fully know the presence of Jesus in your life? Baptism is an outward expression of an inward change of Heart. It (immersion baptism) signifies the death and burial of the "old you" and resurrection of the New You. The salvation experience is a personal one, I would advise you that it's ok to be re-baptized if you indeed feel led to do so. If you weren't truly converted when you were first baptized, if you didn't really understand what you were doing, then would n''t you want to do it again now that you know the truth? I went for years thinking that I was a Christian before the Holy Spirit convicted me of my lost condition. I had no reservations about being re-baptized because I finally knew in my heart the security of being saved and born again. So there I was 6 years ago getting baptized all over again, not because I thought I need to for salvation but because I wanted to because I then truly understood what I was doing and why.
Nata- what are you waiting for?
Blessings Nata-
You write that you were baptized when you were "newly converted", yet now you are committed"
I would like to share on this point first. Substitute "journey" for "saved" or "converted". Initially, you heard, you were excited and you took a trip to the "dock" to see the boat. Indeed you believed in the boat (as did many standing on the dock!). Yet you had yet to step on the boat. For whatever a person might believe "saved" or "converted" to be carries with it a deep commitment.
At the point that we step into the boat, surely this is when we begin to exercise our faith in Christ as Savior- as Peter did when with his companions they drew up their boat and followed Jesus (Lk 5_11).
Now, in contrast to your "first hearing and attending", you know in your heart you are committed to the Lord. Praise the Lord, for now, you are experiencing what Scripture calls faith- for a first working of faith is "assurance of your Savior" and a compelling to unite with Him.
Yet true faith is twofold matter- a spiritual assurance (which should be a spiritual leopard in your heart) mingled with a conviction to engage and join with Christ.
When James talks about Faith with or without works (James 2), he is not only referring to our works of love towards others but pointing out that the true spiritual substance we refer to as faith is never placid, never at rest but rather always motivating us to experience Christ more deeply (yes and this often by sacrifice to and for the brothers and sisters).
Wy are you asking about baptism? Because the Holy Spirit is convicting you! Very exciting stuff.
Many believe that baptism is a ritual which we do out of obedience. This is not Christ's witness to me for In Christ we experience spiritual realities, not types or symbols. Now, everything we engage in that is motivated by Faith carries with it a spiritual reality and this no less so, than water baptism.
Originally you went through an empty ceremony , now with your faith flaring, you are under conviction to experience a deeper experience with Christ even his death and Crucifixion. if we die with Christ we have a part in His Cross or what proceeds from the Cross.
Is it the water that does this? I think not- is it our faith? Faith in what? Faith requires a vehicle through which it is expressed, James is saying, you cannot love in abstract! You must allow your faith to be hitched to a vehicle of love- even putting food on that hungry brother's table. In the matter of dying with Christ, we need a vehicle through which to express this spiritual imperative burning within i.e. to die with Christ. And Christ has appointed Water Baptism to this end.
It is our faith in Christ (which now for you is warming up) that motivates us towards baptism! Baptism is a release and moves us to realize what Christ offers!
Naaman (2Kings 5) carried various burdens and with these spiritual challenges, of these presumptuousness was his stumbling stone, not a deficiency of faith. If he had bathed in his rivers of his own choice would he have been healed and why not? The river Jordon was offered to him.
It is possible that in a moment of great enthusiasm he might have declared to Gehazi Elisha's servant "Your God is the Greatest , faith in Him alone is sufficient, I decline the river." I assure you, that such a faith, though monumental in its "hope" would fail, quickly confirmed by a mirror!
Nata, I say to you as Ananias said to Paul, "Why are you waiting?" (Acts 22: 16). If you are under conviction- do it and be blessed.
with you- Peer.
Re: water baptizing
Water baptism does not save a person....It is to outward show of the inward cleansing and that you have had a change in your life..
The born again experience is what saves a person...
These are the 3 basic steps for a Christian
1)...Be born-again
2)..Be water baptized
3)..Take communion whenever it is offered
You have confessed your backslide/sin and this is what is important....
I know of instances where people were re-baptized since they were babies or small children the first time and did not recognize sin....
I do know of a instance of a elderly lady who was re-baptized because the first time she was a born again young women but several years later she backslide for many years...When she came back to Christ she asked to be re-baptized and I could see why this was a need in her life...
Acts 8 - it really is water
Act 8:36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Act 8:37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Act 8:38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
The Scripture makes it plain enough that the baptism that the Early apostolic Christians practiced involved WATER. "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
Therefore Anne's whole thesis that would make it all about "spiritual water" has no foundation in the practice of the first Christians of the Bible.
Reply to michael
Ac 8. Why did you skip Ac 8:1-25? Were the Samaritans considered to be Jews? No, they were not, Jn 4:4-26. They were treated as non-Jews. As i stated before, the believing Jews had a problem with non-Jews at first and this is the first example we are given of the Gospel being taught to a number of non-Jews. Philip apparently physically baptized them. Were they saved? Absolutely not. Peter and John had to come since the Samaritans had not yet received the one and only saving Holy Spirit baptism. What did Peter and John do? Are Peter and John still around to do the same for everyone else? The Samaritans were not saved until God baptized them with His Holy Spirit baptism. Simon Magus is a perfect example, he was not saved even though he received that baptism from Philip. Neither is anyone saved today until God baptizes us, Jesus Christ the Son of God Himself, as John the Baptist clearly said He will do and must do, Mt 3; Mk 1; Lk 3; Jn 1. What is it about John's teaching that you do not understand?
Then Philip was sent to the eunuch, Ac 8:26-40. Who told him where to go, specifically? Who told him what to do, specifically? Was Philip told to physically baptize anyone? Whose idea was it? Where had the euuch just come from? Did he know about John's baptism? If he didn't know about Jesus Christ at all, then he most certainly did not know about John's baptism. And Philip did not begin with John's baptism either, they were discussing Isa 53. So, what baptism did the eunich ask to have? The one described in Scriptures such as Mt 23? Absolutely. Was he a non-Jew? Yes, he was. Then what happened when they were in the physical water? Philip vanished into thin air!!!! Tell me, michael, are the physical baptisms you had and have seen anything like this one where the baptizer just vanishes into thin air?! Why don't you give me some examples where this has happened again? I would really like to know about them. And, then what? Did the eunuch look for Philip? What did he do? And, read Isa 53-56 and see what God has to say about such eunuchs. Was that eunuch really a "dry tree"?! Your carnal baptism has left you with a carnal mind that can never please God, Ro 8:5-9; 1Co 2.
Read the first couple of verses of Isa 56 as well. I have told you people about this Righteousness from God. Have you kept all of my previous posts available or have you eliminated them because you cannot answer my simple questions? Are you able to answer those four most simple basic Gospel Truth questions i sent?
And, where did Philip end up? Isn't this where God sent Peter to declare the Gospel to Cornelius? I have already explained all of these Scriptures in my previous posts. Why don't you hear? Read Jn 8:47. All true Christians receive our Words and Wisdom from the real Lord Jesus Christ who is our Teacher, Lk 21:15; Jn 6:45; Jn 15:1-17. At our real baptism from God, we receive Wisdom from God along with Righteousness, Holiness and Redemption from God, 1Co 1. No Wisdom from God also means no Redemption from God. So, have you tested yourself as we were all commanded to do?
Do those who believe like you Anne have wisdom from God?
I quote your own words: "No Wisdom from God also means no Redemption from God. So, have you tested yourself as we were all commanded to do?"
The Bible says in Proverbs 11:30 "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who wins souls is wise."
Have all the people who YOU consider to be born again had the wisdom to WIN SOULS for the last 2000 years? Its been pretty pathetic if so. Honestly, how many people believe like you do? Very little record of it over the centuries, I'd have to say. And those who do believe like you have not had the backing of the Spirit of God to propagate their belief because the Spirit of God does not anoint the kind of foolishness you are propagating.
I am not saying that we judge the truth of a movement by the number of adherents, but one thing it does say in the Book of Revelation:
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Any movement which is exclusive to the point of denying that such a great multitude of people from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues will be saved by God IS THEREFORE FALSE.
Don't hide behind the idea that few will be saved. You have to deal with this Scripture in the presence of the One who inspired it.
Please wake up.
Baptism in Water must be Living Water from the Lord Jesus Christ
Multitudes, who call themselves Christians, have never obeyed the real Lord Jesus Christ's command in Mt 6:33a and, therefore, multitudes of so-called Christians have never gone through the narrow Gate to travel on the narrow Road to eternal Life in God's Glory. Multitudes of so-called Christians think they worship the real Lord Jesus Christ but they will hear Him say, to their horror, that He never knew them, Mt 7:21-23. The heretics and anti-Christs will most certainly hear these Words from the real Lord Jesus Christ. Who are the heretics and anti-Christs? The following reveals who they are.
Augustin exposed heretics and anti-Christs circa 400 AD, especially in his writings against the Donatists. Ask me for the undeniable proof. He described how the heretic anti-Christ Donatists had "effaced" Christ's baptism, as they are still doing today, although they are no longer called "Donatists". What does "effaced" mean? "Destroyed", "done away with" and "wiped out"! Today, heretics and anti-Christs continue to destroy Jesus Christ's spiritual New Covenant baptism, 1Jn 1-5; 2Jn! Like the symbolic "man of sin" in 2Th 2, a description of all anti-Christs, the vast majority of so-called church leaders and teachers claim they must determine and confirm a newcomer's entry into God's spiritual Kingdom through their physical water baptisms and related rituals, Lk 16:15-17; 2Co 11:1-15; etc. They are all liars and deceivers who are denying that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Head of His spiritual Church, 1Co 12-15; 2Co 2:14-7:1; Gal 3:25-4:31;1Ti 4; Tus 1-3; 2Pe 1-3; Jde; etc! Jesus Christ has always been in full control of His one and only Holy Spirit baptism, not man, Mt 3; Mt 28:18-20; Mk 16:15-20; Lk 24:44-49; Jn 3-4:26; Jn 7:37-39; Jn 12-17; Jn 20; Ac 1:1-8; Ac 2:47b; Ac 10-11:18; 1Co 12:12-13; Eph 4:4-7; etc. True Christians participate in God's Holy Spirit baptism by receiving and sharing His spiritual "Living Water" but the rest is up to God, not man, Jn 7:37-39; Ac 11:1-18; Ro 5:1-5; 1Co 6:9-11; Eph 5; Jas 1:16-22; 1Pe 1-3; etc! Living Water, also called the "Water of Life" from the Son of God, is one of the three that testify, Heb 8-10; 1Jn 5; Rev 21:6; Rev 22:1,17. Augustin, as all other true Christians will also confess, was spiritually baptized with God's "Power from on High", given by Jesus Christ Himself, Lk 24:49; 1Co 1-3; 1Co 8:5-6; 2Co 12:9-10! But heretics and anti-Christs believe in and practice physical baptisms, given by the hands of men, Gal 1-3:24; Col 1-3; etc. Therefore, the false Christians, who give and receive physical baptisms, remain self-condemned under the Law of Sin and Death as heretics and anti-Christs, Ro 1-8; 2Ti 3-4! What Augustin revealed about heretics and anti-Christs confirmed the following; it was written almost a year before the Lord led me to what Augustin wrote.
REV 13: THE MARK OF THE BEAST – 666! HAVE YOU ALLOWED YOURSELF TO BE DECEIVED?
Do you know that almost every adult, who calls himself or herself a Christian, already has the Rev 13 “mark of the Beast”? Ask God for Wisdom to understand. Then share the following with as many people as possible:
The mark of the Beast, the lie of 2Th 2 and physical water baptisms, performed after Ac 11, are all the same evil. Impossible? No! Six times, we read that John baptized with physical water but Jesus Christ must baptize us with His Holy Spirit, Mt 3; Mk 1; Lk 3; Jn 1; Ac 1; Ac 11. Jesus Christ's saving baptism is the one and only spiritual baptism of God’s New Covenant according to Scriptures such as Mt 20; Mt 28; Mk 10; Mk 16; Lk 11-12; Lk 24; Jn 1-7; Ro 1-8; 1Co 6:9-20; 1Co 12:12-13; Gal 3; Eph 4:4-7; Eph 5:25-32; Col 1-2; Jas 1:16-18; 1Pe 1-3; etc. After John the Baptist went to prison, Jesus Christ began His earthly Ministry. During the time of His earthly Ministry, His apostles did not baptize anyone in or with physical water. Don't stumble on Jn 3:22-4:3, John the Baptist wasn't in prison yet and the Apostle John's Gospel is not in chronological order. So, if the apostles did not perform any physical water baptisms during Jesus Christ's entire earthly Ministry, what makes anyone think that Mt 28; Mk 16; Ac 1-7; Ac 9; Ac 12-28; etc. are about physical water? They aren't! They are about “Living Water”, “the Water of Life”, that we must also spiritually drink! Read Jn 7:37-39; Rev 21-22. Did the apostles have a temporary problem accepting non-Jews without first putting them through some of the Jewish rituals? Yes, they did in Ac 8; Ac 10 but what did Peter learn in Ac 10-11? Peter learned that he had opposed God! Non-Jews will be included in God's Plan of Salvation in the very same Way as the believing Jews – through sincere repentance and faith that lead to obedience, Mt 3-7; Mk 1:14-15; Jn 8-21; Ac 11; Ac 15; Ro 1-16; Gal 1-6; etc. Until we receive God’s saving New Covenant baptism from the Lord Jesus Christ through God’s Word, we have no Grace as God defines it and no salvation. Multitudes may think they have God's Grace but they do not, exactly as it has been prophesied to happen in these Last Days. This is the reason for all of the confusion among denominations, sects and cults. They have all invented their own false gospels instead of believing and obeying what Jesus Christ taught and told them to do, especially first of all in Mt 6:33a. What is it, exactly, that we must find first? Did you begin where Jesus Christ told us to begin?
Read Jn 1-7; Heb 1-13; 1Pe 1-5; Rev 1-22. Pay careful attention to the descriptions of the saved 144,000 in Rev 14:1-5 and the Voices of Rev 1; Rev 14. What must be “written” in our “foreheads”? God's Name, also called: “The Word of God!” "Living Water" is a description of God's Word in Spirit and in Truth. God's Word must be written in our minds and on our hearts as God's “Water of Life” that we must also spiritually drink!
Who had physical rituals for washing their “hands” instead of ceasing to do evil? The Jews of 2000 years ago, especially the unbelieving Jews, who symbolized all of the false Christians to come, Mt 15; Mk 7. How are these Jews described in Rev 2? As “a synagogue of Satan”, the same “Beast” of Rev 13, who persecuted the early true Christians. Who is the second “synagogue of Satan” in Rev 3? False Christians, who have followed in the footsteps of the first Beast, exactly as prophesied in many OT and NT Scriptures. They also wash the outside with physical water but leave the inside full of greed, wickedness and dead men’s bones, Mt 23; Lk 11-12. The second synagogue of Satan also persecuted true Christians, especially the true Christians of 350 years ago, the ones perfectly prophesied as the Philadelphia church in Rev 3. These true Christians founded Philadelphia, USA, after proving all of the carnal churches and all of their related carnal institutions are false!
What "sea" did the Beast come out of? The symbolic “Red Sea” where the symbolic wicked got wet and drowned, Ex 12-15. What is it that true Christians cannot "buy" or "sell"? God's Gospel Truth since God's Gospel Truth cannot be bought or sold with money, Isa 55; Mk 11; Rev 21-22. False Christians try to buy and sell but all they have to offer is lies from Satan, 2Co 11:1-15; 2Pe 1-3! Where was “666” revealed? In Isa 66:6 of the Old Covenant but primarily in Jn 6:66 of the New. Like the disciples of Jn 6, who rejected Jesus Christ and His Word, false Christians have refused to accept the fact that God is Spirit and He must be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth. God's Light and Living Bread are spiritual, His Living Water is spiritual and the Holy Blood of Jesus Christ, when it is symbolized by the Wine, is spiritual, Jn 1-7. What was symbolized in Jn 2:1-11?
God's New Covenant is spiritual; it is impossible to belong to the Law of Sin and Death and be saved. We must leave the Old Covenant and belong to the Law of the Spirit of Life, Ro 1-8. How do we go from the Law of Sin and Death to belong to the Law of the Spirit of Life? The correct answer is simple and short; it will take a couple of sentences or a small paragraph to explain. Only true Christians will know the correct simple short answer because we have experienced it. False Christians, who belong to the synagogue of Satan, do not know the correct simple short answer, 1Co 1-3. Do you know? Do your "teachers" know? If not, then you have a most serious problem that you must not ignore! Start over. Begin with Mt 6:33a. Contact me anytime regarding God's exact original Gospel Truth. Freely have true Christians received and freely we will give!
In the service of the Righteous One from God the Father,
anne robare
RE: must be living water
ANNE
I am having a hard time with understanding your posts.
When I read what you say, it is like reading a string of sound bites, or bullet points.
If you have something to teach, then teach it!
But take it slowly, teaching one point at a time. I am sure you have a lot to say on the subject, it seems as though you have done considerable study, but you are all over the place with your teaching
Example, did you know that "ONE" Eskimo could eat an entire Whale by himself? It's true, but you have to understand it would take him his entire life to do it.
That is the problem with your posts, we can't eat the whole thing in one sitting.
How Long has it taken You to gather all of this information? You can't expect us to digest it as you speak it.
Just step back, slow down, take a deep breath, then understand, we have time for whatever you have to say, to be said. If what you have is that important, then the Lord will tarry, in order that none should parish.
I have a suggestion for a starting point,
"THE PURPOSE OF BAPTISM IN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER"
Then we will have an understanding as to the direction you are going. For without a compass we will all get lost. And some could end up falling into a ditch:>)
Be Blessed
JIM
Reply to JIM
Who taught you, Jim? Are you familiar with Jer 17:5-13? This curse remains as we can read in Gal 3. Is what Paul wrote in Gal 1-3 also applicable to all physical water baptisms? Absolutely! Read Col 1-2. There, Paul was describing a spiritual circumcision that all true Christians will have and he also mentioned a baptism in Col 1-2. Was this baptism physical or spiritual? Paul always taught a spiritual baptism from God! So, therefore, all of the warnings in Gal 1-3 also apply to all physical water baptisms. And, the saving spiritual circumcision and the saving spiritual baptism are the very same Gospel Truth, just different descriptions of the very same Gospel Truth
Now, back to the curse of Jer 17 and Gal 3. Is this the same curse mentioned in Rev 22? Yes, it is. Are all physical water baptism lovers also denying the Fountain of Living Water of Jer 17 as the unbelieving Jews have always done? Yes, they are. Read Rev 21-22 about the "Water of Life". Read Isa 55; Jer 2:11-13; Jn 3:1-21; Jn 4:4-26; Jn 7:37-39; Eph 5; 1Jn 5 about this Living Water that is the same as the Water of Life. We must be baptized into and with THE NAME and there are three that testify THE NAME: Living Water from the Son of God, the Holy Blood and the Holy Spirit of Charitos, Heb 10; 1Jn 5. God's one and only saving baptism begins with Living Water from God, the Son of God. This is what Mt 28:18-20 is really about, not physical water. Mt 28:18-20 and Jn 7:37-39 describe the very same Gospel Truth.
Now you should be sufficiently scared to death but that is good because the fear of God remains the beginning of Wisdom and Understanding from God, Pr 1-9; Php 2. Trash the false gospels and start over as babies on milk! We must be taught by God and The Revelation is a perfect example for this need. How many different interpretations of The Revelation are there?! If anyone tries to figure out the Scriptures through human power, he or she will never fully understand them but there will be no excuses. Also, read Lk 10:21-22 because it still applies today although few believe it.
Teach it, you say? I have told everyone here how to be saved but i will say it again: Seek first God's Kingdom and God's Righteousness, the Righteousness from God revealed in the Gospel that we must have Faith in, Mt 6:33a; Ro 1:16-25. Repent of all false gospels and all other sins, believe what you find along with the rest of the Gospel and become a bondservant of God's Righteousness through His Power and for His Glory. That, Jim, is how we must be saved and that, Jim, cannot be said by anyone but a true Christian.
The purpose of baptism? Salvation! The saved have Wisdom from God, Righteousness from God, Holiness from God and Redemption from God that are also called the saving "Mind of Christ", 1Co 1-2. If you do not have Wisdom from God, then you have no Redemption either. This is why everyone must test themselves as God has commanded us to do.
How can i make God's Gospel Truth about baptisms more simple? One baptism means one baptism, not one for real and another for show. One baptism by one Lord through one Faith! Not some human's definition of Faith but God's definition. Is that simple?
Who baptized you? The Holy One of God as we read in 1Jn 2 or some mere human? A mere human? Well, then you were lied to and deceived, so trash what you were told by them and start over as a baby on milk. Go back to the paragraph just above this one and there you will see how we must begin to be saved. However, if you continue to cling to a false gospel, you will never learn the saving Gospel.
Anne...
Listen, there are many points that I agree with you on. I won't go nearly as extreme on these points as you have, but nonetheless I do agree with you. Let me ask you just one thing. Where is your compassion for those you believe to be lost and unsaved?
Here is a study for you, look up everywhere that Jesus did something or said something, look up all the verses on compassion, look up the fruit of the Spirit. All this alone will show you something you have missed dearly.
I am begging you to the point of tears, repent from this, for you may not be given the chance tomorrow.
Dear sister I am sorry to
Dear sister
I am sorry to read your post as you are most evidently thoroghly deceived and have fallen into the age old trap of getting 'special revelation'. Such beliefs are based upon a self righteous sense of spiritual superiority. I urge you to humble yourself and repent sis. Praying for you now :-)
Re: Dear Sister
Dave, I agree with your assessment and your attitude. Thanks for the prayers for Anne. May God's peace keep you and yours today!
Baptism reply to Dave Crisp
Dave,
True Christians are all taught by God and we can do nothing against the Truth, 2Co 13. No lie comes from the Truth, 1Jn 2. We have the Anointing from the Holy One and HIs Anointing teaches us, 1Jn 2. Who taught you? The real Lord Jesus Christ said we will all be taught by God, Jn 6:45. Who taught you? All true Christians will boast in the Lord who gives us Wisdom, Righteousness, Holiness and Redemption, 1Co 1. This is how true Christians will have "the Mind of Christ", 1Co 2. Who taught you?
The real Lord Jesus Christ said His sheep hear His Voice, Jn 10. The real Lord Jesus Christ said all who belong to the Truth will hear His Voice, Jn 18. What is His Voice like? Rev 1:15b: "and His Voice as the Voice of many Waters!" What kind of Water is this? Living Water, Jn 4:4-26; Jn 7:37-39; etc! The Water of Life, Isa 55; Rev 21-22! Wonder why the Water of Life is mentioned right at the end of The Revelation; it is there for a most critical reason!
What does Satan spew out? A river! What kind of river does he spew out in Rev 12? Physical water! Wonder why the world's physical waters are all going to be turned into blood, Rev 16. Wonder why everyone with the mark is going to get sores as Righteous Job had but, sad to say, they won't be like Job before or after. Wonder why the sun is going to scorch people with great heat. They did not want anything to do with the Sun of Righteousness, Mal 4! Wonder why people are going to suffer in the darkness. They refused to love God's Light and loved spiritual darkness instead, Jn 1; Jn 3:1-21. What about those frogs in Rev 16? Don't frogs start out as tadpoles in the physical water? And, about those massive hailstones. What are they made up of? Physical water! People refused to believe in God's Living Water and so they are going to be pounded with massive frozen physical water. And yet, like you, they will refuse to repent and believe what God wants us to believe and so they will end up in the Lake of Fire. The beast and the false prophet will all go there even before the 1000 years. I have told you what they are, who they symbolize.
When do you want to find out that i am telling the Truth? Now, in time to really be saved, or too late? Remember, the real Lord Jesus Christ is going to tell a whole lot of people that He never knew them before they are tossed where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, Isa 66; Mt 7-8; Mt 13; Mt 22; Mt 24-25; Lk 13. Those people thought they were saved but they are not saved. They never received "the Mind of Christ" through His one and only Holy Spirit baptism, 1Co 2. How sad but what we need to do to be saved is in everyone's face in plain sight. Start over as a baby on milk. Seek first God's Kingdom and God's Righteousness, the Righteousness from God that is revealed in the Gospel for us to have Faith in, Mt 6:33a; Ro 1:16-25; etc. Repent and believe what you find along with the rest of the Gospel, Mk 1:14-15. Become a bondservant of God's Righteousness through His Power and for His Glory, Ro 1-8. In these last three sentences, i have told you how to really be saved! Quit fighting against your salvation.
And, after i learned what i did, the Lord also gave me many confirmations in the Scriptures and in other true Christian writings, especially in the writings of the early true Christians from c100-400AD as well as the writings of the true Christian Quakers of 350 years ago. We all agree on the Gospel Truth as all true Christians of all time will agree because we all have the very same Teacher!
questions about water baptism
currently the new church that my fren is attending asking him to have water baptism(in the form of full immerse).But the problem he has gone thru water baptism in form of water sprinkle in old church.So is it biblical to ask my fren to be baptize again?According to them,full immerse is the perfect model, and he shud follow the way Jesus did in olden days.
Re: Water Baptism
Hi Amy,
It is neither biblical, nor unbiblical to ask that question. Many times a baptism symbolizes a re-dedication of one's life to Christ. In my life there are times when I receive revelation of God that makes me 'come undone' in my spirit. I see that although I have walked as best I knew how, now I see a whole new dimension to my walk and I have been baptised to symbolize my commitment to walk in that way.
If the church makes it a legalistic issue, that would be unwise, or perhaps inappropriate. But in all things, we have to bear with one another. It may be that your friend should humble himself and be baptized with immersion (which is what baptism means - it comes from the word 'baptizo' which means to submerge) Romans 6 shows clearly that baptism is a type of burial. Sprinkling does not convey that message as meaningfully.
I see fellowship here as being an important factor. These may be great Christians with a conviction on this that it would be wise to honor. If they are merely controlling types, seek another fellowship. Overall, I believe they are in their biblical rights to request he be baptized, but not to demand it as a basis of fellowship.
I hope this is helpful!
To Timothy Luke
In Lk 16, the real Lord Jesus Christ had this to say about those who justify themselves before men: And He said unto them, "Ye are they that justify yourselves in the sight of men but God knoweth your hearts. For that which is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God!" An abomination! And, what human can know the hearts of men? True Christians receive our anointing from the Holy One of God, 1Jn 2. Are these human baptizers the Holy One of God? Read Jn 6:44. The Father must draw us, we cannot just make up our mind to be saved. Read Jn 15:1-17. Did the apostles choose to follow the Lord Jesus Christ? Didn't He first call them and then they followed Him? Are you people better than the apostles?! Many are called but few are chosen, Mt 22! We are called when God calls and He, not some mere human, must choose those who repent and believe what He wants us to believe, Mk 1:14-15.
In Ac 10-11, Peter realized that he had started to oppose God. Why didn't he mention the physical water baptism of Ac 10 when he was describing what had happened in great detail in Ac 11? What did he say instead? What did he remember that we can also read in Ac 1? And, what had he heard in the vision? DO NOT CALL COMMON OR UNCLEAN WHAT GOD HAS MADE CLEAN! Then they all realized that non-Jews begin to be saved exactly as repentant and believing Jews: THROUGH REPENTANCE AND FAITH. Faith in what? In the Righteousness that is revealed in the Gospel, Mt 6:33a; Ro 1:16-25; etc. Read Ac 15 for more on the same subject and wonder why no physical water baptisms are mentioned there at all. Also, see my comments above.
Anne, I must say....
Anne, I must say that I concur with David Crisp's observation and concern for you. You blast away at water baptism, though it is clearly taught in scripture. You use places where it is not taught, to say that it ought not be taught. However, if it ought not be taught, then why did Jesus and his disciples not only teach it, but practice it?
Yes, the Father must draw us to the Lord, but after being drawn, there is a place for water baptism, else why would Peter teach baptism when asked, "what must we do to be saved?"
You are not displaying the fruits of the spirit my sister. You have a head knowledge, but your heart is far from 'love as God defines love.'..
Your demeaner and tone are those of a "knowing one" who berates those who differ in understanding, without cause. You quote Augustine as though he were infallible and his opinions divine. He was a mere mortal and his words are NOT canonized as scripture for good reason. Please do not exalt yourself or imagine you know the "Real" Jesus and the rest of us do not. I am not seeing the fruits of God's Spirit in your posts thus far and unless the tone changes, I shall refrain from approving further posts in the moderation queue.
Reply to Timothy Luke
The real Lord Jesus Christ said He sends His true followers as His Father sent Him, Jn 20. Where do we read that the Father sent His Son to physically baptize anyone? Why don't you answer my questions?
You know, Timothy Luke, people like you are constantly trying to prove what i am saying is wrong when you cannot and at the same time you always ignore my simple questions. A true Christian, taught by God, cannot be proven wrong about God's Gospel Truth, Lk 21:15. The more you try, the more you will never understand crucial Scriptures but you will not be excused.
And, why don't you show me where the word "water" is in Mt 28? How about Mk 16? How about Ac 2? I'd really like to know! Just because we see the word "baptism" does not mean we automatically attach the word "water". John the Baptist baptized with physical water but the real Lord Jesus Christ does not. His one and only saving baptism is the baptism of God's Holy Spirit, the Anointing from the Holy One of God, Mt 3; Mk 1; Lk 3; Jn 1; Ac 1-2; Ac 10-11, 1Jn 2; etc.
During the real Lord Jesus Christ's earthly Ministry, there were no physical water baptisms by the apostles, none, zero. Do not stumble on Jn 3:22-4:3. Jesus Christ did not begin His earthly Ministry until John the Baptist went to prison, Mt 4; Mk 1:14-15, and John the Baptist was not in prison in Jn 3:22-4:3. So, tell me about one single physical water baptism by the apostles during the real Lord's entire earthly Ministry. And, if you read my other posts as you should, you will see Ac 8; Ac 10-11 have been explained regarding the non-Jews. If you cannot find one example of a physical water baptism by the apostles during Jesus Christ entire earthly Ministry, and i know you cannot find a single one, then you ought to trash the false gospel and start over as a baby on milk.
Seek first God's Kingdom and God's Righteousness, the Righteousness from God revealed in the Gospel that we must have Faith in, Mt 6:33a; Ro 1:16-25. Repent of all false gospels and all other sins, believe what you find along with the rest of the Gospel and become a bondservant of God's Righteousness through His Power and for His Glory. This is how we must be saved and this cannot be said by anyone but a true Christian. You also need to read Lk 10:16.
And, as you are ignorant of God's definition of Faith, so are you ignorant of God's definition of Love and the Fruits of the Spirit. You have none of them. I am not puffed up at all as you have tried to prove with Scripture that you don't even understand. I give all of the credit to the real Lord Jesus Christ who has taught me. Who taught you?! When have you ever declared that the real Lord Jesus Christ has taught you everything you need to know to be saved? Never because you are not saved! Do you see that Scripture you quoted? True Christians rejoice in the Truth! You have not rejoiced at all but you have done the exact opposite. I have declared that the real Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord as the chapter just previous to 1Co 13 describes. You physical water baptizers have denied that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Head of His one spiritual Body. You have all allowed heretics and anti-Christs to claim they can determine or confirm someone's entry into God's New Covenant or God's Kingdom, which are the same Gospel Truth, when only the real Lord Jesus Christ has been given all Authority, not any mere human!
And, what do you know about Augustin? All true Christians receive our Wisdom and Words from the same Source, the real Lord Jesus Christ, Lk 10:16; Lk 21:15; Jn 15:1-17; Php 2; etc. You are ignorant of this critical fact because you have no idea of what it means to have God's one and only saving Holy Spirit baptism that gives all true Christians "the Mind of Christ", 1Co 1-2! And, to keep this brief, Augustin revealed what 666 was c400AD as Jn 6:66, 1100 years before the verses were numbered! He could only know this if God had revealed it to him and God did along with other critical Last Days knowledge. And, this fact was a confirmation of what God gave me long before i read what Augustin wrote about Jn 6:66! No one but God taught Augustin as He will teach all true Christians and confirm what we learn. Don't forget, what you say against true Christians, you also say against our Lord and Master, Lk 10:16! We do not exalt ourselves but the real Jesus Christ as Lord but you false Christians have done the exact opposite.
You shall refrain?! What did Gamaliel say in Ac 5? When you fight against God's true servants, you fight against God! You have lies and deceit on your site, lies and deceit that only come from Satan, Jn 8! Now, you have a true Christian telling you how to be saved, exposing your lies and deceit for what they are: lies and deceit. If you make a stand against God's exact original Gospel Truth, you will most surely make it much worse for yourself in the Lake of Fire. That is your choice to make.
"The real Lord Jesus Christ
"The real Lord Jesus Christ said He sends His true followers as His Father sent Him, Jn 20. Where do we read that the Father sent His Son to physically baptize anyone? Why don't you answer my questions?"
Anne, look at my posts to you. Why have you not answered MY questions? Are you above me? If you will be greater than I, be my servant. I have asked you questions and you have not answered. When I am barraged by questions it often strikes me as rhetoric and I do not always answer. If you will have me answer your questions. Post one question at a time and then be sure to answer my questions. ( I will not run a whole string of them at once, deal?)
If we slow the dialog down, we may be able to get somewhere.
Answer: We do read that Jesus sent his followers to baptize.... We read that clearly. So, according to the framework you have outlined, If Jesus sent his followers to baptize, the Father must have sent Jesus to baptize (OH, so that's why Jesus' disciples baptized more than John's!)
Question. Is your premise for your logic faulty, or your conclusion, or both?
Thanks be to God
Dear Michael and All,
Wanted to share with you the joy of obeying the word of God. I was saved on April 2001 and after 8 years today i have taken water baptism. Its a joyful thing when we humbly submit ourselves to obey our Lord Jesus Christ and follow him.
1 Peter 3:21 says "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
Regards, Eugene Michael
Baptism into and with the Name, not physical water
Eugene,
1Pe 3 is not about physical water at all. Peter was using the example of the Great Flood to symbolize the one and only Holy Spirit baptism from the real Lord Jesus Christ. Who stayed physically dry and were saved from the Great Flood? Who got physically wet and died? How many were saved? The real Lord Jesus Christ said it would be like this in the Last Days, like the days of Noah and only a few are going to be saved in the very Last Days, Lk 17. Why? The so-called churches are either all Laodiceans now or worse. Will the Lord Jesus Christ find Faith on the earth, as God defines Faith, when He visibly returns, Lk 18? Why do you think people are going to mourn and wail, Rev 1?! Read all of 1Pe 1-3. How can physical water give us a clear conscience before God?!
And, in 1Pe 1, Peter told us all how we must be born again, exactly the very same Message of being born again as the real Lord Jesus Christ taught Nicodemus in Jn 3:1-21. What is that "Water" in Jn 3:1-21? It just happens to be the very same Water of Jn 4:4-26! Nicodemus did not know about Living Water and neither do the unbelieving Jews to this very day along with all who have followed in their footsteps, Mt 23. What do we read about Nicolaitans in Rev 2-3? Now you should know who they are and why the real Son of God hates what they do and teach!
The true saving Baptism given by the real Lord Jesus Christ has nothing to do with physical water but everything to do with Living Water, the Water of Life, Jn 3:1-21; Jn 4:4-26; Jn 7:37-39; Rev 21-22; etc. When God's Gospel is changed into a gospel that is no gospel, what will happen to those who teach it? Read Gal 1. What will happen to those who follow it? Read Mt 15:13-14; Gal 3. Also, read my other posts.
True Baptism and Water Baptism
There has been so much confusion on the subject of water baptism. On the one side you have people like Anne Robare who deny the relevance of water baptism and would pronounce that those who teach it are headed for the Lake of Fire. On the other hand you have oneness pentecostals, and people like "stevehenry" who would believe that you can't be saved without being water baptized according to the correct formula. There are a lot of people who seem to believe that Christianity is all about getting the doctrine of baptisms "right". We want to get them right, but Christianity is about renouncing yourself and receiving the Lord Jesus Christ to live in and through you. The thing that will disqualify you in God's eyes is the absence of faith or the absence of love, and these things are well-defined in the Scriptures. They are simple and practical. Going around teaching a rarely received doctrine about water baptism is NOT what the Bible was written for.
You see, the "true baptism into Christ" is not water baptism. However, water baptism is a commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:19,20), and it is a symbol of death, burial and resurrection with Christ. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan by John. This was the first example and model of Christian water baptism. It was done because "thus it is fitting to fitting to fulfil all righteousness". But if we teach this today, there will be those who will be ready to utterly condemn us.
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
Mat 3:16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
As I mentioned elsewhere, Philip the evangelist preached Jesus and this prompted the Ethiopian to say, "Here is WATER. What prevents me from being baptized?" To say then that water has nothing whatsoever to do with baptism can only be done by a person whose mind is controlled at least in part by a religious demon masquerading as the Holy Spirit. We see this sort of thing again and again on all kinds of issues. It is as if the plain meaning of words can no longer be trusted.
Anne, I am going to limit your access to this forum shortly, so choose your words carefully if you wish to reply. It must be a sad feeling to really believe that only you and a few thousand others could be real true Christians over the last 2000 years - or maybe it fills you with an enormous sense of your own importance. I cannot say, but just because YOU think what you have to say is so vital and helpful does not mean that I do or that God does, and so it won't be much trouble at all for me to shut you down on this forum as I would do to anyone else who I feel might unsettle the faith of God's little lambs.
Thanks Michael
Thanks for looking out for the sheep. It is amazing that we can have a discussion on a topic. I believe the sense of arrogance was obvious to all. I shall not post further comments on this topic from Anne. Yes, the fact Jesus was baptized in water and proclaimed it fitting for Himself should at least get one to thinking that perhaps doing so should not consign a soul to hell.
In following after rabbit trails, I have not had a chance to state the obvious.The Lord IS looking at the heart. It is what must be cleansed for salvation. This is what Christian-Faith.com is all about. We work through the day-to-day areas of sin and unrighteousness and proclaim the solution to sin that is found in the Bible. We lead people to repentance that they may bear the peaceable fruit of righteousness and find rest for their souls.
The interpretation of one baptism must include the Lord's words that there is the baptism of fire, baptism of water, and baptism of the spirit. Ephesians 4 is speaking to the unity of the spirit, and so is referencing the unity of the baptism of the spirit into one body, etc.
"Judge not, that you be not judged, for with what measure you mete, so shall it be meted out to you." are words that apply to people like me and Anne alike. Let us judge righteous judgment, not self-righteous judgment. I notice the same tendency in people on high horses. They cannot answer the questions of others, as they ride by shouting questions to them. This IS a discussion board and so if we will be teachers, we must answer the questions of those we would presume to teach.
I just wanted to let everyone
I just wanted to let everyone know that I got baptized this morning after sharing my testimony to the church! Amazing experience and everyone came up afterward to give me a hug. :)
Awesome Sara! Consider
Awesome Sara! Consider yourself cyber-hugged here too!
That's great!
Congratulations on taking this important step, Sara!
Thank you Timothy and
Thank you Timothy and Michael! I appreciate it!
walk in christ jesus
greetings in jesus name;colossians 2:6-13.as ye have therefore received christ jesus the lord,so walk ye in him.who are we to walk in,christ jesus the lord.rotted and built up in him,and stablished in the faith,as ye have been taught,abounding therein with thanksgiving.rotted and built up in who,christ jesus the lord.beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,after the tradition of men,after the rudiments of the world, and not after christ.not after who,christ jesus the lord.for in him dwelleth all the fullness of the godhead body.the fullness of the godhead dwells in who,christ jesus the lord.and ye are complete in him,which is the head of all principality and power.we are complete in who,christ jesus the lord.in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of christ.we are circumcized without hands,in who christ jesus the lord.buried with him in baptism,wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of god,who hath raised him from the dead.we are buried with who in baptism,christ jesus the lord.and you,deing dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,hath he quickened together with him,having forgiven you all trespasses;who forgave us all our treepasses.christ jesus the lord.colossians2:10 and have put on the new man,which is renewed in knowledge after the image that created him. christ is all,and in all. are you the christ jesus the lord,i am.thank-you jesus.