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Sin and Saints
Is sin only something you 'do'? or, is it more?
In writing this, I feel as though I am having to answer to a denominational textbook that I have no intention of reading. I am attending a pentecostal church in which I have good standing and am highly regarded by leadership. However, the Bible is my text of choice. The apostles and prophets who are exalted by God in scripture, are my heroes. Within the pages of scripture alone will we find this topic sufficiently covered.
Basic scriptures on sin, that define it for me are these:
"Sin is the transgression of the law."
What is the law? "Love." Love for God, Love for neighbor - whether friend or foe.
God is Love. He is pure love. This is called holiness.
Sin is ANY deviation of that love, small, or great, in Word, Thought, or Deed.
The word often used for 'sin' in the Bible means, "missing the mark." The 'mark' is 'love'.
Some will quote that we 'cannot sin' as Christians. They take these words from 1 John 3:9. They ignore the context in the surrounding verses and promote a scripturally unbalanced dogma that does not seek to harmonize with the other words of John in this very same epistle.
In 1 John, the apostle was addressing a broader topic than 'can a Christian sin', He was addressing Sin. In 1:8 he says to the Christian church, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." So, I have biblical ground to say 'all Christians sin."
In 3:9, he says, " Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." So, the stage is set for discussion. BOTH these verses are true. The problem is not with John's understanding... the problem is with ours. Our understanding must make allowance for both to be true, if WE are to be true.
To take 1 John 3:9 and say a Christian can never sin, or else they are not a Christian, is to disallow the reality of 1 John 1:8. The apparent contradiction, but the fact there can be none, leaves us with the task of examining the key word in both verses, "sin." Is there a level of sin that ALL Christians are subject to, and a level of sin that goes beyond what a Christian can allow in their lives and still be called a Christian?
I will add to this blog as time allows....
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Sin & Saints
What is never taken into account is, the church which Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles were writing Epistles to, was in a constant state of flux.
These men were dealing with a Christian population, which was all of the same age, there were no Elders, they were like a bunch of school children out on a playground playing tug of war, with everyone pulling in different directions, the Apostles were trying to establish stability in the First Church, which was made up of Greeks, Romans, and Jews, each group brought their own set of beliefs to the mix, causing others to stumble, this was a time of building.
We cannot look at the Church which the Apostles were writing to as stable, settled, established, like the Churches of today which has been built upon, with 2000 years of growth, we have to take into account the dramatic changes these people were having to deal with, they were living in PAGAN societies for the most part, then there were the Judaisers which were trying to destroy the Church by saying Gentiles had to follow the law, become circumcised, then tempted the Jewish Believers to come back under the Law themselves.
Satan was out in full force, doing everything he could do to destroy this New Way, this New Covenant, he could see the hand writing on the wall, his time was now short.
These people were not Grounded, Established, Settled they possessed all of the baggage they had carried all of their lives and it would be awhile before the Church would become what we see today.
An Analogy would be, a new convert, a brand new Christian in the church today, this person will not become Grounded, Established, Settled for awhile in their walk, they will stay a babe for a period of time, fluctuating back and forth until Christ is formed in them, because they possess all of the baggage they have carried all of their lives, and it will take awhile before they become Mature Christians, but once they have become grounded, settled and Christ "IS" formed in them, there would be no occasion of stumbling in him.
Does either of these two verses sound as though Salvation is something that can be walked away from, or that God will not complete in you the work HE has begun?
2Co_7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to (SALVATION NOT TO BE REPENTED OF): but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Php_1:6
(BEING CONFIDENT OF THIS VERY THING), (THAT HE WHICH HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK IN YOU), (WILL PERFORM IT UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST):
Does this sound like a person
Does this sound like a person can assume they are saved because they took the first step?
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."
Make whatever excuses as to the immaturity of the believers of old, we still have that today. As for the comment about elders, Paul writes Timothy how to deal with elders, so we know they are a viable part of the church being written to. The salvation is something that is not for us to repent of... we repent to be partakers of it, but once we have turned toward salvation, we are not to turn away from it again.... God will most assuredly do His part in salvation, we are the ones who can always opt out and forsake the Lord....
Sorry if this sounds a bit short, but htats where this is.
Re: Does this sound
TIM
Sorry for the delay in answering, have been very busy.
Are you saying because of the word "IF" used in these verses that it Alludes to a choice?
There are I am sure, a lot of alike verses you could pull up, all Alluding to Choice, but the thing that would be missing would be the actual teaching on the subject, where it has been clearly laid out, similar to Paul's teaching on "the law"
The following verse, even though the "IF" is used, clearly says there isn't a choice.
Mat_24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
That verse was in direct relation to the ones you posted, because the entire chapter 2 Pet. is about False Teachers.
*************************************************************
In light of ... Heb, 6:4-6 Heb.10:26,27 2 Pet.2:20,21
How are we to understand what Paul was saying here?
In verse 1 of this chapter, Paul says this man has had Sex with his Fathers wife. (doesn't say Mother).
But what we see is, that instead of explaining to the Corinthians, this man has "Willfully Sinned" and therefore lost his Salvation, as you believe he taught in Heb. or the ones you have used in 2 Peter, Paul says the following.
1Co 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
What then should be the Interpretation of this verse?
Did he or did he not lose his Salvation?
JIM
Jim, thank you, as always,
Jim, thank you, as always, for a well considered response!
Regarding Matthew 24:24, it will indeed be possible to deceive some of the very elect, for it is also written to those elect, "be not deceived." Deception is really something we have power over. It takes diligence, (ever notice that word and its application to believers?) to not be deceived. Diligence in the Word enables us to compare the Truth to whatever is being taught that may not match up. Some get lazy and take a "if I am deceived, God can't judge me on that (for presumably my heart is pure in that deception) and so the allow themselves the luxury of a wink and a nod as they veer off the sound path they were on.
Because deception can be prevented, it is in the believer's court to be sure they are not deceived. That being the case, Matt 24:24 is an admonition to the elect to be on guard against that in the last days.
**************************************************************************************************
Of course the man's will was to have sex with his father's wife. Perhaps he thought that "once saved, always saved" for example, and relied on that to justify his actions. The church did not speak up, and so the man felt he was doing ok with his salvation. Whenever we commit an act of sin, we may engage our will to choose it, however, to 'willfully sin' is to intentionally turn away from following God and jump whole heartedly back into the world. That is how I define that term.
Given the verse in 5:5, we see that Paul could see that this man's salvation was at stake. This proves my point conclusively. For Paul saw that unless clear action were taken to reprimand this man, his heart would be hardened in his sin, and the salvation he had would then most certainly be lost. Paul was acknowledging the man had salvation at this stage of the sin, and by turning him over to Satan, the man's choice would be clearly defined for him, allowing him the best chance to toss off the deception and see the error of his way and repent, hence retaining the salvation he had received.
The next epistle shows the man indeed repented, but now the church needed to embrace him again...
2Co 2:6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
2Co 2:7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
2Co 2:8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
2Co 2:9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
More Input on Hebrews 6 and 10
I have done some more research on Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27. Here is what I found.
1) These verses are probably the most volatile passages in the entire Bible. Some believe that those spoken of are non-Christians; others believe they are Christians, possibly weak Christians. Each side is pretty convinced of their stance.
2) The “we” in Hebrews chapter 10 includes the writer of Hebrews also. He is not just talking down to his readers, but he includes himself in this warning. Thus, we have the word “we”.
3) The sin that is mentioned is not about breaking the moral Law, or the Ten Commandments. For example, it’s not about worshipping another God, or committing adultery, or stealing, etc. It is far worse than that. If you keep these verses in their context, it is the sin of apostasy. In the case of the Hebrews, it is leaving the Christian faith and going back to Judaism.
4) I found something else that was an eye-opener. I will let the commentator tell what it is.
“Those addressed were Hebrew Christians, who, discouraged and persecuted, (10:32-39) were tempted to return to Judaism. Before being received again into the synagogue they would be publicly required to make the following statements (10:29): that Jesus was not the Son of God; that His blood was rightly shed as that of a common malefactor; and that His miracles were done by the power of the evil one.”
Referenced from: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/hebrews.htm
Therefore I have to conclude that this sin is strictly the sin of apostasy. I would like to add something else. I’ll start with Hebrews chapter 6. If a person goes down to verse 9, he or she will find these words:
Hebrews 6:9 (NIV)
“Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation.”
Going on to Hebrews chapter 10, a person will find these words in verse 39:
Hebrews 10:39 (NIV)
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe.”
The writer seems to believe better things of his readers. I believe that whoever wrote the Book of Hebrews (that’s up for debate too) wanted to scare the “pants” off of these Christians and well he should. As to how this would affect their salvation that has been debated also. There is no mention of loss of salvation. There is mention of severe punishment, which could possibly mean loss of life. God would administer the punishment. He will do whatever is just. You have to ask yourself this question: Did Jesus die for the sin of apostasy, or not? The only sin not covered by the blood is the sin of unbelief. But, if they are Christians, they have been covered by the blood. So, is the sin of apostasy forgivable or not? It is something to think about. So, it’s best not to be guilty of this sin; then, you don’t have to worry about it.
Now a person can mouth words that he or she doesn’t believe, just to appease the enemy. I don’t see how a Christian, who might defect, would believe what they are saying. But anyway, I’m stopping here.
Hebrews 10:16-27
May I shed a different light on Hebrew 10:16-27? Verse 16-17 of Hebrews chapter 10 talks about the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrews begins to tell what the terms of that covenant are: (1) “I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them’ (vs. 16); (2) “their sins and iniquities I will remember no more” (vs. 17).
The writer proceeds to mention some of the benefits of this New Covenant in verses 18-22: “boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus”; “our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience” and “our bodies washed with pure water”. Sounds like a good deal, doesn’t it?
Verse 23 says. ”Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)”. What is the “profession of our faith”? Our profession is this: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; that he died on the cross for our sins; that he arose to confirm our salvation and He is sitting at the right hand of God making intercession for us. We receive this information by faith. Notice the phrase “without wavering”. Apparently God knows that a saved person may have doubts about the security of his or her salvation at times. However, God would say to us, “Don’t worry. Your salvation is secure with me.” Thus we have the words in parenthesis “he is faithful that promised”.
Verses 24 and 25 talk about how Christians should encourage and support one another in as they endeavor to live for Christ each day.
There is a difference of opinion concerning verse 18 and verses 26-27. I would like to share my thoughts on these two verses. Here is verse 18:
“Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
What does the word “these” refer to? One must go back to the previous verse, verse 17. You’ll find that the writer is referring to “their sins and iniquities.” “Remission” means that these sins and iniquities have been forgiven. What does it mean that “there is no more offering for sin”? It means there is no further need of a sacrifice, since Jesus was the ultimate and final sacrifice
Here is verse 26 and 27:
“For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”
Here in these two verses, the writer is presenting the only other option or alternative outside of Jesus and the Grace He offers. The “we” in this verse is referring to people who have gained a “knowledge of the truth”, but they ignore it and keep on sinning. What is “the knowledge of the truth”? It is the Gospel. If a person rejects the sacrifice that Jesus made for his or her sins, then, that person is out of luck. God is not going to offer them anything else. All they have to look forward to is “judgment and fiery indignation.” Their sin in this case is unbelief. They go on living in unbelief.
Since the word “willful” is used to describe the word “sin” in verse 26, it shows the severity of this sin. It is almost as if this person disdains the Gospel. Verse 29 bears this out. It speaks of putting “underfoot the Son of God”; counting “the blood of the covenant…as an unholy thing”; and doing “despite unto the Spirit of grace.” No true born again Christian would be guilty of such a thing. This has to be a lost person. Verse 39 verifies the fact that the “we” in verse 26 is not referring to the Christian. It says, ”But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”
I would like to share my
I would like to share my perspective on what these verses allude to:
I would say that the wavering is in our commitment to God. Jesus said he was as a rich man going to a far country and leaving his house in possession of His servants. He warned them to be about their daily business and keep up that which was entrusted to them. If they thought he were not to return, they would take leave of their responsibilities. We do not waver in our obedience the to LORD who called us. "Why call you me Lord, Lord, and DO not the things that I say?"
This is not just about 'believing we are saved," it is about believing our Savior is coming back and we are to have the task accomplished at His return. We must not waver in that commitment.... That is my understanding of this verse. Not all will agree, but let's play nice!
Re: Your Perspective
TIM
When Jesus spoke this parable you are referring to, who was He speaking to - - about?
What was the subject, and context of this parable?
"Jesus said he was as a rich man going to a far country and leaving his house in possession of His servants.
He warned them to be about their daily business and keep up that which was entrusted to them."
Having made statements and only referring to scripture without giving the actual verses, I dont know which Parable you are speaking of, because it sounds as though you have managed to mix two Parables together making one.
JIM
Perhaps I have, let me
Perhaps I have, let me check!....
You are right, I have mixed parables... like carrots and peas!
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Luk 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
Luk 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
This is the crux of what I was saying, though I may have blended specifics from other parables! Thanks for keeping me straight Jim!
Re: Hebrews
Hi Sunrise
Glad to see you back, you add a lot to the discussion
Hebrews 6:4-6 goes in to more detail on who the "WE" are in Hebrews 10:26,27. Heb.10 is a reiteration of Heb. 6
When you say
"The “we” in this verse is referring to people who have gained a “knowledge of the truth”, but they ignore it and keep on sinning. What is “the knowledge of the truth”? It is the Gospel. If a person rejects the sacrifice that Jesus made for his or her sins, then, that person is out of luck. God is not going to offer them anything else.
All they have to look forward to is “judgment and fiery indignation.” Their sin in this case is unbelief. They go on living in unbelief."
The "we" are clearly saved.
Look at these verses, side by side
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
JIM
To Lookingforacity About Hebrews
I have done some research after writing my comments. Just wanted everyone to know that I did not get my ideas from Scott Grant. This information is found under the topic of Judgment for abandoning faith (10:26-31).
Comments are by Scott Grant
"What, then, can be said about someone who "sins willfully"? It can be said that this person wants no part of Christ, that he has utterly rejected the salvation that God has offered after being fully exposed to that offer. In being exposed to the offer, this person received the knowledge of the truth and was "sanctified" by the blood of Christ. This is not a person who ever believed the gospel; this is someone [who] got a good look at it and then rejected it. Although the writer used the word "sanctify" in describing a believer (10:10, 14), the broad meaning of the word is to be set apart for something. The blood of Christ set apart this person for exposure to the gospel, for apart from the blood of Christ, there is no gospel. The word is used by Paul to describe an unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by his or her believing partner (1 Corinthians 7:14). Paul clearly doesn't mean "saved" here, because he says in verse 16, "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?" He means that an unbelieving spouse is exposed to the gospel and its benefits through the believing spouse. The writer of Hebrews, just as he did in Chapter 6:4-8, is describing someone who has seen the benefits of the gospel and then rejected it. This person has chosen to be God's adversary. This person, therefore, will experience God's judgment, which will involve "severer punishment" than the punishment of death called for in the Law of Moses."
Referenced from: http://www.pbc.org/system/message_files/10517/heb17.html
The closest example that I can think of that would fit the kind of person mentioned in Hebrews 10:26-27 is Judas Iscariot.
A List of Biblical Commentaries on Hebrews: http://preceptaustin.org/hebrews_1026-27.htm
.Re: Question of Hebrews
.Sunrise
Scott Grant makes a statement that
Someone who "sins willfully"
"In being exposed to the offer, this person received the knowledge of the truth and was "sanctified" by the blood of Christ.
This is not a person who ever believed the gospel; this is someone [who] got a good look at it and then rejected it."
Scott has said, a person who becomes Sanctified by The Blood of Christ, does not necessarily have to believe the Gospel.
That is a lie of Satan, right out of the pit of Hell.
Anyone who has been Sanctified by the blood of Jesus, becomes Holy set apart unto God.
Sanctify, Sanctified
G37
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.
Scott says
"The word is used by Paul to describe an unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" by his or her believing partner (1 Corinthians 7:14). Paul clearly doesn't mean "saved" here, because he says in verse 16, "For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?"
Looking at 1 Cor. we see.
1Co 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is (SANCTIFIED BY THE WIFE), and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
The Sanctification spoken of here is not by the Blood of Jesus.
(THE UNBELIEVING SPOUSE IS SANCTIFIED BY THE BELIEVING SPOUSE), for the express purpose of having Holy Children.
The sanctification being spoken of, which is derived from the union with a spouse, is not retained if the unbelieving spouse leaves the union.
This type of sanctification cannot be compared as being the same, as the Sanctification by the Blood of Jesus.
Scott goes on to say.
"The writer of Hebrews, just as he did in Chapter 6:4-8, is describing someone who has seen the benefits of the gospel and then rejected it."
These are the words of Paul.
Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Paul is clearly NOT speaking of someone, who has only seen, or received the cursory Sanctification of a believing spouse, for the purpose of having Holy children.
1) A person who has been enlightened, has come to the KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.
2) A person who has tasted of the heavenly gift, has received the gift of the GRACE OF GOD.
3) A person who has been a partaker of the Holy Ghost, has received the EARNEST OF HIS INHERITANCE.
4) A person who has tasted the word of God, has been PARTAKER OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF CHRIST.
5) A person who has tasted of the powers of the world to come, has THE POWER OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD WORKING IN THEIR LIFE.
The person just described by Paul in Heb, 6, is obviously SAVED.
And as it says "IF" " If they shall fall away"
The question then is "HOW BIG of a fall does God actually allow"?
Sounds more like Scott is trying to make scripture fit into his Theology
JIM
For lookingforacity
There is much controversy over those passages in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10. I think the key to the verses in Hebrews 6 begins with the phrase in verse 4: "For it is impossible".
What is your take on Hebrews 6:6?
Wishful thinking
This doesn't really make sense, its a classic example of twisting the Scripture to fit into a pre-determined doctrinal straitjacket. Its amazing how theologians can take the clear words of Scripture and then make them somehow effectively say the opposite of what anyone who simply read them would understand.
The writer of Hebrews is addressing people who had converted to Christ. He says if "we wilfully sin", not "if your unsaved spouse who you presented the gospel to quite clearly but never knew the Lord - sins". If someone gives up the faith and turns back to Judaism or whatever lifestyle and culture they embraced before they KNEW the Lord, if they don't repent, they will surely PERISH and no sacrifice for sins remains for them.
Twist the Scriptures at your peril.
For Michael
Thank you, Michael.
Comments on 1 John 3:9
First of all, the Holy Spirit is not going give people contradictive interpretations of the same Scripture. That would be confusing. God is not the author of confusion. That said, I would like to comment on 1 John 3:9, which states, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
“Whosoever” could be anybody. But, when you add the phrase “is born of God”, you know immediately that it is speaking of a born again believer. The next phrase says, “doth not commit sin.” Did John make a mistake here? No. He meant exactly what he said. Just to make sure that no one misunderstands him, he repeats the same idea in the last part of the verse when he says: “he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” It’s like John flips the sentence around, but it comes out the same.
John even tells us another reason why “he cannot sin”, when he says, “for his seed remaineth in him.” That “seed” is Jesus. He gives us God’s divine nature. Jesus is who God sees when he looks at us. Jesus, our substitute, never broke any of the 613 laws. Jesus is the fulfilled law inside of us. We have met every requirement of the law through Jesus. Not only that, any sins a believer commits has been paid for by His blood on the cross. God’s sense of justice has been satisfied through Jesus. Everything a believer inherits from God comes through Jesus.
As far as the word “sin” goes, John made it perfectly clear what he meant by sin in 1 John 3:4. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: FOR SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW.” The NIV calls it “lawlessness”, which means to break the law. What law? It is the Law given to Moses. A believer is not under the jurisdiction of that Law. The believer is under the Grace given by God. Some would say that sin means missing the mark. OK. What mark? It’s talking about God’s standard, which is the Law given to Moses. So, it all boils down to “transgressing the law”.
Look at the difference between 1 John 3:4 and 1 John 3:9. I will be using the first part of each verse.
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law…” 1 John 3:4a
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…” 1 John 3:9a
The “whosoever” in 1 John 3:4 refers to the person who has not yet come to Christ. Anyone who is without Christ is lost. When a lost person commits sin, he or she “transgresses the law”. That is because that person is under the Law given to Moses and is not covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.
The “whosoever” in 1 John 3:9 is the saved person, who has been “born of God”. The saved person doesn’t transgress the Law and therefore commits no sin. How is that possible? It is possible because that person is not under the Law but under Grace and that person is covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. The blood shows that a price has been paid for those sins. The blood cancels all sin.
Can a Christian sin? Yes and No. It’s like a paradox. Herein is the paradox. If a Christian happens to sin that sin is not imputed to them. It’s like he or she never sinned. Jesus who is our advocate defends the believer’s position. (1 John 2:1) It’s like God saw all of our sins before any were ever committed and he put all those sins on Jesus at the cross where He paid for them with His holy, precious blood. This should give all Christians a deep appreciate for what Jesus has done. By the way, a person is not a Christian unless they have come by way of the blood of Jesus Christ.
I will close with this thought which has just come to me. If the Law is outside of a person, that person is under the curse of the Law. Therefore, that person is under condemnation. However, if the Law is inside of a person that person has been redeemed from the curse of the Law. Redemption is permanent, because sin cannot be charged to the redeemed person anymore. Remember that John wrote the whole book of 1 John. Whatever other verses he wrote in 1 John does not negate the verse I have been discussing.
sin and sinless living
Partly agree,a saint can sin,and it must be accounted for,however we must fix it or lose our salvation.sin is an act of transgression of God's commandments, the blood of Jesus washes our sin nature away,and replaces it with the nature of Jesus,but only upon the second blessing.,now we get to a discussion,can a saint lose their salvation and also the Spirit of God dwelling inside,I say yes,your turn
TB Joshua
Ok guys. Got one for you all that just blew my mind. And it kinda of goes with the discussion on here. Im not real familiar with with TB Joshua, but I was on U-Tube and was listening to LB Hicks, then I searched other holiness messages after that and came across this service where TB Joshua is casting out a demon in a woman in the process the demon through the woman is speaking in tongues?. I never knew a demon could do that? Any thoughts?
"though I speak with tongues
"though I speak with tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, it profits me nothing...." Never said the angels were or were not holy ones... They have their own language, logical ain't it!
Tim
if someone spoke to me in german it would be an unknown tongue to me,but it wouldnot have to be of God.he could be cussing me out for all I know. we keep this up,someone may get the idea we agree on something,boy what will the neighbors think, ha ha just kidding bro,
joshua
tongues,are not new,but speaking in tongues as the SPIRIT GIVES utterence is a thing altogether different, I saw the clip also,now does it line up with bible ,NO,1st I would not want children or unsaved people around a casting out of a demon,the thing may enter someone unsealed, 2nd,look at the violence,not Christlike, its a show.
joshua 2
I wondered about that, especially when the person started acting like a dog sort of
joshua 3
don;t you think it strange,no fear from anyone,if a real devil is in this,fear would be everywhere,would you want your children trying to play with devils? in the old days,elders would ask anyone not sealed to leave the room,
good point
That's a very valid ooint
count on this
anything the Holy Ghost is in,1st will always glorify Jesus,2nd all things will be done in decentcy and in order, anything out of order in not of God! also he sent his deciples in pairs,for a witness in such matters,and a very good idea today,for many reasons.
tongues
I was taught devils couldn't speak in tongues because it was our heavenly prayer language. Guess I need to relearn that
To Holyroller_11
IMPUTE
Psalm 32:1-2 [King David speaking]
A Psalm of David, Maschil
Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered. Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD IMPUTETH NOT INIQUITY, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile.
Romans 4:5-8 [Paul speaking]
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God IMPUTETH righteousness without works, Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not IMPUTE sin.
I’m sure you familiar with these passages, but I want to concentrate on the word impute. Impute means to “credit to”. So, if you take Psalm 32:2 and you insert the definition of impute into it, it would read like this:
Blessed [is] the man unto whom the LORD [does not credit] iniquity, and in whose spirit [there is] no guile.
That word guile means no trickery, or deceit. The thoughts that David had are a reality today. When the Lord saves a person, that person is no longer credited with sin. Jesus has taken care of that.
AN ILLUSTRATION
I used this illustration with my Sunday school class one time. I took a piece of chalk. I said, “This is your sins.”
I took a red plastic cup and put it over the chalk. I said, “This is the blood of Jesus.”
I said, “Now look at it and tell me what you see.” They all said they just saw the cup, which stood for the blood of Jesus.
I said, “That’s what God sees, when He looks at you, if you are saved. He doesn’t see your sins, but He sees the blood.”
This reminds me of the Israelites, the night they got ready to leave Egypt. They had to put the blood of a spotless lamb on their door post, so that the death angel would pass over their house. Later when the death angel saw the blood, the angel would pass over that house. Had the blood not been applied, the death angel would have gone in and killed all in that household. Every person who has not had the blood applied is under the wrath of God. So, I’m saying, a person remains saved, because of the blood.
This thought just came to me which I will share with you also. After the Israelites left Egypt, the blood on their doorposts would have still been there as a testimony to the Egyptians of God’s Grace towards His people.
Other verses using a form of the word impute: Romans 4:11, 22-24; 5:13; James 2:23
sunrise
before I decide to comment further, I need to know,do you think after a sinner recieves forgiveness,if he turns away and lives as he pleases,he is still saved,yes or no. do you think the blood of Jesus washes all sin away from that point on regardless of how we live? yes or no
To Holy_roller from Sunrise
I believe once a person is GENUINELY saved, that person is always saved. Why? It is because God is faithful to His promises. The believer may not always be faithful, but God is always faithful to the believer.
GOD’S FAITHFULNESS
1 Thessalonians 3:3
But the Lord is faithful, who shall STABLISH you, and keep [you] from evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved BLAMELESS unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].
1 Corinthians 1:9
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] BLAMELESS in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Weren’t we sinners, before we got saved? Yet Christ offered us the gift of salvation while we were in that condition. Would He not be just as forgiving if the saved person sinned? Why would He treat the sinner better than the saint?
HOW GOD TREATS THE SINNER
Romans 5:8-10
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
It’s best not to judge another person’s salvation by what you see. Sometimes we don’t know what’s happening in a person’s life to make them act that way. Also, I believe what the Scriptures say, that all our sins are forgiven. I believe that a believer can get away from the Lord for a season, but if that person is truly saved, that person will come back. You’ve heard church folks say that God can take the bad and turn it into something good. Well, there has to be some “bad” first in order for this statement to be true.
HOW GOD TREATS THE ELECT
Romans 8:33-34
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[“Us” means you and I. Why the intercession? Why is it needed? Why does Jesus have to make intercession for us?]
Call of a diciple - to bear much fruit !!
John 15 :5 -"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."
John 15:16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other."
We are not to judge other person's salvation, for we believe that as long as we have life on this earth, we have Hope in Jesus.
This is true. We are called
This is true. We are called to make our own calling and election sure. In speaking to THE DISCIPLES, Jesus said to "abide in me, and I in you, so shall you bear much fruit." Abiding is a decision we make every moment of our lives. If we do not bear fruit, Jesus tells us the Father will cut us off and gather us to be burned. We are appointed to bear fruit, but should we just coast and slack off, we are not going to be fruitful... Just like any job, being employed is one thing, remaining employed is another - and our diligence is required in salvation as well as employment, for we are this day to be about our Father's business.
2Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" As Michael mentioned, if we were to say this to anybody else in any other context it would clearly tell us there is no eternal security and once saved is not assurance of always saved.
sunrise
I think you see good in people,and thats a good thing,I wish I could agree,once saved always saved,but I can;t, Solomon was gifted by God and God was in his heart for many years,but in his later days,turned and worshiped other gods,and no record of him ever turning back. to be as close as he was,yet turned, tells me it can happen to anyone. God will not allow sin in his kingdom,just as his word is true if everyone is a lier.God is able of these rocks to raise up children of Abraham,if we turn,he still will be worshipped,even if the rocks have to cry out,
Holy_roller concerning Solomon
Solomon didn't have the Grace that we are offered today. He had to abide by the laws, decrees and statutes that God required. If he sinned, he had to bring an animal sacrifice for that sin just like everybody else in Israel.
To Sunrise:Re Solomon
As you say "If he sinned, he had to bring an animal sacrifice for that sin just like everybody else in Israel."
So do you think just by bringing animal sacrifice, God forgave their sin s ?
This is what God has said regarding sacrifices:
Isa 1:11 -"The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats."
verse 13: "Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me."
God is same.He wanted a heart of repentance even from the Israelites.
concerning solomon re
This is true,but never the less,the only difference is animal sacrifice is temperary,but still covered sin,solomon turned on God,and was lost,so salvation can be lost .Jesus was the perfect sacrifice,that was so valuable,he only had to die once,but we as the Jews,still have to keep seeking God and living according to God's law,to be saved,Solomon still could have been saved,had he repented,just as we now,but if we or he refuse,then you loose your salvation.then,now,and forever the chosen of God in the old testiment did have the Spirit of God upon them,they just needed the curse of death through adam removed, not so many things changed as one things. man was bound from entering heaven until Jesus.but a holy life was required then and now,this was not changed. look at the before and after Christ.line up the law of God and add the law of Christ,not remove the law because of Christ.
To Holy_roller , a Question from Sunrise
This was in your paragraph titled: concerning solomon re: "..."but we as the Jews,still have to keep seeking God and living according to God's law,to be saved..."
May I ask you a personal question? Are you a Jew? I was just wondering. I love the Jewish people. In fact, I support a couple of charities that help Jews. One of them is The Fellowhip of Christians and Jews and the other is The Jerusalem Prayer Team. Both are very good organizations and very responsible. If you do not mind answering, I would like to know.
sunrise
no I am not a jew,my comment was to say we as well as the jew,but my typing skills are in terrible shape, sorry I also on occasion,skip a word,by accident,my brain run faster than my fingers on these keys,I type in granny gear!
Holy_roller
I'm not that great of a typist either. Thank God for DELETE and BACKSPACE.
Its ok Joe! I walk in Granny
Its ok Joe! I walk in Granny Gear! I am Greatful that you do have fingers to talk with and The same to the rest on this site! I Do not have the elloquence of speach that you all speak in on this site. I Am just a simple woman, Yet I learn much from all on here. Some I feel are over thinking simple issues, but I could be wrong. Yet the Amount of thought you all put into what you state is very inspiring! Sometimes with people like me, the simpler the better! All I know is that My heart is set on Jesus and I will dwell in his house forever. Also, I did have a bit of a Question about the first Church, I was always taught that Many of them were hunted and martyred. The had much to Learn, yet They seemed to me to be very strong believers. Yes some were immature & some fell back but many were willing to Die that deny their faith. I was wondering where you are getting the info on them? Because Paul often Chastized, yet he Also edified them. Just like to learn More. Love in CHrist Jesus, And thank you all for your disscussions, your Sis, Annette
Sis
I also like things in plain words,the bible says lest we come as a little child,we in no ways enter in. I don;t know in great detail of the first church,except the bible outline,but I sure would have loved to been in those early revivals,
Re: Concerning Solomon
Joseph
Are you aware in the Old Testament, the words (Forgiveness - - Sin) never appear in the same verse, and that the words (Salvation - - Sin) only appear together 1 time.
1Sa 19:5
For he did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great (SALVATION) for all Israel: thou sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou (SIN) against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?
1) The word Forgiveness, only appears 1 time in the Old Testament, in Psalms.
2) But the word Salvation appears 119 times, and never in relation to Sin, of an individual.
3) Sin on the other hand crops up a whopping 336 times, but never in relation to Forgiveness or Salvation.
We can deduce from this absence of connection, the Jews did not know of, nor did they understand the concept of (Salvation from and Forgiveness of Sin), in relation to their Immortal soul, as we do through Jesus.
The Jews went to the Bosom of Abraham, or Hell when they died, but it was not the same place we are headed, who have gained Salvation through Jesus Christ, for the Forgiveness of sins.
We therefore cannot look at any of the Patriarchs, as having attained Salvation as we know it to be.
Heb_11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
We cannot look at those of the Old Testament, like Solomon for example as loosing his Salvation, then drawing the conclusion that if Solomon lost his then we can too, it wasn't the same, Solomon was under a legalistic Covenant, a system of keeping the Law.
Rom_3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal_2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have
believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Heb_7:19
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Eph_2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph_2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
JIM
Jim
your right to the fact under the law no flesh could be saved,but waiting for the promise in paradise ,the rightous waited ,but the wicked in hell,are still there waiting for the great white throne judgement.so if Solomon didn't repent ,he is still in hell. agreed,so salvation was still lost,or the chance of redemption from Christ was still lost.
answer this
Im going to squeeze in here and ask something. What did Jesus mean when He said many are called, but few are chosen?
answer
everyone is offered chances to be saved,the calling at one time or another will reach everyone, many will recieve,but will allow the cares of this life to pull them away. few will accept with hunger and gladness ,but will not let anything keep them from God. so because of their faithfulness they are chosen vessels and made children of the most High.
someone is going to say that
someone is going to say that you are preaching works, but that person is not going to be me!
Good evening Tim
I don;t doupt that,although works without faith is dead,faith without works is dead,unless you confess Christ and die 10 minutes later,works is a part of staying in good standing with our Lord.
Re: Solomon & Salvation
Joseph
What you say is true up to a point, the wicked are in hell still, no chance for forgiveness, the wicked are in hell, waiting for the great white throne judgement,
Heb_9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
But when we come to Solomon, we can only assume what his end was.
What we do know, is that there was judgement made by God for the sin he committed.
1Ki 11:11,12
11) Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.
12) Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.
As far as Solomon being in Hell, there a question which arises.
God pronounced a judgement for the sin of Solomon, does this mean Solomon would still go to Hell for that sin, if the penalty had already been decreed for it?
In studying this event I came to something very interesting.
David had Uriah killed, so he could have his wife Bathsheba, God pronounce judgement upon David for the sin of murder, David did say he had sinned against the lord, but it does not give an account of his repentance. David therefore besought God for the child, with fasting for 7 days, but the child died anyway.
This was the judgement of God for the sin of murder which David had committed, it should not be forgotten however, there was more to this judgement of God upon David for the murder of Uriah, there would also be a curse, God said "Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house" meaning Solomon himself was under the curse which God made in judgement against the house of David.
Dont forget, Solomon was the second child of David and Bathsheba, Solomon would never have been born, if David his Father had not murdered Uriah to have his wife.
Now concerning Solomon's sin, yes he did disobey God when he married strange wives, but wasn't he predisposed to sin because of the Curse on the House of David?
And when Solomon sinned, his son Rehoboam would pay the price, he would lose the Kingdom
And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess, not being of the blood line of Abraham.
The strangest thing of all is that, when we follow the blood line of the House of David, we come to the end with John the Baptist, and Jesus, both of them in the flesh, were under the same curse pronounced over David, "Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house"
These were the things I found when studying about Solomons supposed loss of Salvation.
To say it very simply, Salvation as the forgiveness of sin, was not offered to those of the old Testament.
Forgiveness of sin was given by sacrifice, but Salvation was not given at the same time.
Salvation did not come by the Law.
It has been mentioned by Childofjesus, hope you two don't mind my combining my answers.
"In Gal 3:6
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
"Abraham was considered righteous by 'Believing' and not by 'Law'."
While this is true, righteousness was reckoned to Abraham, he did not at the same time attain Salvation.
It is also true, this Righteousness was reckoned "by his believing, not the Law", he believing was not in Jesus Christ as his Savior, but in the promise God had made that he would have a son, this believing of God also did not gain Abraham Salvation for forgiveness of sin.
It should be noted, Noah was also deemed to be a Righteous man, this was before the Flood, and way before the Law, but this again did not gain for Noah, Salvation.
There is a big difference between being a Righteous person, and having Salvation.
A person who has attained Salvation is Righteous.
Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom_3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
2Co_5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
It is not by what we have done, but by what Jesus has done, it is a gift of God, this gift of Gods Grace was not available to anyone before Jesus' Sacrifice for sin.
Eph 2:8,9
8.) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
JIM
To Jim
First all let me say that I love to learn from Bible and i'm learning & sharing a lot on this site.
I agree & believe that salvation through Jesus Christ is a free & precious gift to us.
In OT, God loved men & women who believed in Him.I see a very close relationship between God & these people.No where i find that God boasted about their 'good works'.
Also i would like to share in reply to
1) "David did say he had sinned against the lord, but it does not give an account of his repentance."
Psalm 51 tells that David repented for this specific sin.
2) "Dont forget, Solomon was the second child of David and Bathsheba, Solomon would never have been born, if David his Father had not murdered Uriah to have his wife."
This is not right. If God had planned the birth of Solomon, He would have taken Uriah's life and David would have ended marrying a widow of Uriah.
Jim
I understand you say righteousness and salvation is not the same in the old testiment, yet Solomon could have repented,there is no record,but only the righteous of old,would have been given the chance to accept the blood of Jesus,after his death,plus solomon and others knew the time would come when their righteousness would be joined with the salvation of Jesus,so I still say Solomon knew God in his heart and turned to worship other gods,which is the greatest sin,if sin could be measured,so regardless of law or grace,man must attempt to walk right in the sight of God to be able to finish his race to obtain the prize of everlasting life with Christ,do we agree,then man can loose his salvation? also first God's law was written in the heart of Solomon,and the promise of God to send the perfect sacrifes was known,Solomon knew ,yet he turned, If he did not repent before he died, I'm sorry for him.
Re: Righteousness & Salvation
Joseph
1) "yet Solomon could have repented, there is no record"
Therefore we cannot judge the condition of his heart when he finally died, therefore we cannot use him or any other person in the Old Testament, as an example of someone who walked away from Salvation. If you want to make that case, it will take people from the New Testament, that will make it for you, Salvation was not available to them.
They were under the Covenant of the Law, we are under Grace.
2) "plus Solomon and others knew the time would come when their righteousness would be joined with the salvation of Jesus,"
They might have known or understood the Messiah would ultimately come, but how would they know that their Righteousness would be joined with the Salvation of Jesus, if they didn't even have the concept of Salvation as we do, their Righteousness was wrapped up in the Law and the keeping of it, where then is this information recorded.
3) "so regardless of law or grace, man must attempt to walk right in the sight of God to be able to finish his race to obtain the prize of everlasting life with Christ,"
We must do a whole lot more than "attempt to walk right", according to what you have said "WE" must achieve this prize, because the Sacrifice of Jesus wasn't good enough.
In other words, "we have to do it, because God through Jesus couldn't".
4) "also first God's law was written in the heart of Solomon"
Where is it written, "the law was written in the heart of Solomon"?
These are the places in the Bible that statement is made, and it is Prophesy about the Nation of Israel, at the time of the end, Solomon is not mentioned.
Jer. 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the (HOUSE OF ISRAEL); After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and (WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS); and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the (HOUSE OF ISRAEL); after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my (LAWS INTO THEIR MIND), and (WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS): and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb. 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will (PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS WILL I WRITE THEM);
5) "the promise of God to send the perfect sacrifice was known, Solomon knew, yet he turned"
OK, Even IF Solomon did know "God would send the perfect sacrifice",
He did not know how it would affect him personally, Prophesy is a Mystery, no one knows it until it happens, and then they understand.
Example
There are constant discussions on the End Time Prophesy's, but there isn't one person, in the last 2000 years, who knows when, or in what order, or how it will affect anyone alive at the actual time of the end.
Therefore Solomon was not privy to the understanding of the Mystery.
6) "only the righteous of old, would have been given the chance to accept the blood of Jesus, after his death"
On this point I fully agree with you. Here is the scripture to back up my belief.
Jesus was crucified, placed in the tomb, but contrary to the belief that Jesus went a preached in Hell for the three days,those people had already been judged, that is why they were in Hell, Jesus would not go there and offer them a second chance.
I believe he went to the place called the Bosom of Abraham, where there were those like Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Joshua, David, (Solomon?) they were all looking for the Messiah, but did not know what it would mean to them personally. So when Jesus Arose on Resurrection Sunday, they came out with him.
Mat. 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat. 27:52,53
52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
JIM