Welcome,
Atheist says hello - no flaming please
Thu, 03/03/2011 - 08:58
Hello folks.
I am an atheist. I've joined here simply to try to learn a little more about christians, what you think, why you think it and how you think it.
I am not here to flame or abuse you, and I hope you will find the same. I AM here to ask you questions. I think this is the case for many, however my questions are not intended to consolidate or nurture my faith - I have none, my questions will be specific, quizzing specific parts or events of the bible, and what they mean for you.
ipso facto, you are of course, free to ask me any questions you wish too.
Most of all, my questions will probably be focused from a perspective often referred to as a "naturalist" view - i.e. one that attempts to assess the case without invoking a deity. My tools are statistics, logic and reason.. and of course, my own, admittedly very flawed, and very incomplete understanding of the world.
The only favour I would ask is that, as long as you consider my question to be polite, you give my them fair consideration. As an extension, if you do not consider my question to be polite, then it's possible I've inadvertantly said something I didn't mean, or the tone of my text has not been conveyed accurately - so PLEASE TELL ME.
Oh, and a little request - you are free to pray for me if you wish, but I'd rather not hear about it, and indeed, I consider it quite insulting, since it indicates you don't respect my freely-made choices. You might consider them wrong, but that's actually irrelevant. They are mine. I made them, and I used my mind (perhaps given to me by god) to make them.
Sat, 02/25/2012 - 13:54
#2
Together, Becoming Superstars for Christ
I believe in Destiny and its fulfillment. Let GOD use you too, I'm rounding up my album, I need to feature some upcoming American Cristian rappers on some of the powerful track. Kindly link me with some or help me to get them and mail me, realrabbi@gmail.com Thanks.
Sat, 02/25/2012 - 13:54
#3
I believe in Destiny and its
I believe in Destiny and its fulfillment. Let GOD use you too, I'm rounding up my album, I need to feature some upcoming American Cristian rappers on some of the powerful track. Kindly link me with some or help me to get them and mail me, realrabbi@gmail.com Thanks.
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 08:58
#4
Hello.
-
Sat, 01/28/2012 - 09:08
#5
welcome
The post was blank. But hello and welcome!
Sat, 05/14/2011 - 04:25
#6
hello
http://www.rosetta-stone-discount.com
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 06:49
#7
More Thoughts em
Hi em
This has been your position.
"my point here is to learn about you all, (i.e. Christians) and how you understand and regard the natural world."
1) The natural world is the tangible, physical substance, which can be poked, prodded, examined, assessed.
But aren't you in actuality, attempting to qualify through Metaphysics the mechanics of our understanding?
2) If you were going to take a trip to a place you have never been before, your destination being 1,000mi. away, if when you started your journey, your compass was incorrect by 1 degree, after you had traveled your
supposed 1,000mi., wouldn't you still be 1,000mi. away from your hoped for destination?
Once you arrived at what you supposed to be your destination, would you not start to draw false conclusions about the place you had arrived, by assuming you were someplace you actually were not.
All of your conclusions therefore about the place you thought you were, would be false, because you had from the outset used a faulty tool, a tool not correctly calibrated for the use it was intended. This tool therefore gave you an incorrect understanding as to the actual direction you were gong.
3) Simply said, you cannot use the tools of science, used in the natural world, to evaluate the Spiritual Realm.
The tools themselves are limited to time, space, in the evaluation of those things that can be seen.
Then there are the tools of Metaphysical reasoning, deduction, which also do not give positive or true readings within the Spiritual realm, because the Spiritual Realm, is Real, it exists in as best as I can explain a parallel, to the natural realm. The natural realm, cannot go into the Spiritual Realm, but the same does not hold true in relation to the Spiritual Realm.
Someone not acknowledging the Spiritual Realm as valid reality, will never understand the constant influence the Spiritual Realm actually does have on the Physical Realm.
Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Does the complexity found in nature, something as DNA, come totally from evolving, no intelligence to it, just by chance, and environment, and time, aaalllloooot of time?
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A question on two trees, I know of these trees specifically because when I was a child growing up in Miami Fla. we had two Australian Pines in our front yard, approx. 80 ft. with about 10 Melaleuca trees growing at the end of our street in the yard of someone else. The Melaleuca I never liked, the blooms reminded me of rancid butter, but the bark was cool to peel, seemed like you could bring the tree down just by peeling the bark.
The city had also planted the Pines along numerous canals for erosion control. These trees do not hardly exist in So. Fla. today.
Australian-Pine - - Long-favored for use in erosion control along beaches, this tree is now outlawed in many parts of Florida due to its invasive nature, the trees growth rate is one of the most rapid growers known, as high as 80 feet in a ten year period. It flourishes in the warmest areas in South Florida,
Melaleuca - - Also known as paperbark tree, punk tree, cajeput tree, and white bottlebrush tree, is a subtropical tree in the eucalyptus family, with spongy, white, paper-like bark that can grow to 50 feet in height. Paperbark tree is an aggressive invader that spreads rapidly, converting native plant communities such as sawgrass marshes, wet prairies, and aquatic sloughs into impenetrable paperbark thickets. In a single year, one paperbark tree can produce a dense island hammock nearly 600 feet in diameter. Its greatest threat is to the Florida Everglades ecosystem, which faces extreme and possibly irreversible alteration as a result of intrusion by paperbark tree.
My question is, why are species such as these trees so invasive when brought into areas such as So. Fla. where they are not native?
This type of phenomenon seems to take place time and again, with all types of different species, Trees, Birds, Fish etc.
Why then is it not logical, to believe God created biospheres, complete with everything that was needed to sustain itself.
Instead of having everything grow, breed everywhere.
To me the (diversity) of these drastically differing biospheres, where the things within one, will do differently in another, is Gods way of insuring against the type of thing that happened in Ireland, when man interfered ie. potato famine.
The whole point of my posts, is to bring you to the understanding, that the tools you have used so effectively in the past, in your chosen profession of science, work perfectly well when you apply them to the things they were designed for.
But when you take them out of the, realm of the physical, they are inadequate for the task at hand. I think at times you come very close to the little used tool of plausibility. The others more widely known and used are belief and faith. These last two tools are used in a manner where you have to wait on, (for) the results, that is the nature of how the two work.
Be Blessed
JIM
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 03:22
#10
Re: Thoughts for em
I am posting on this blog just to keep things together, not in rebuttal to any given post of yours, these are just some thoughts, or explanations for your consideration and thought, you want to know how we can come to the conclusions we do, here are some reasons. A glimpse of how we study.
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Hi em
How are you defining Love. where does the definition come from?
We, in studying the Bible, do not use the English standard dictionary, for our definitions of the words which are used in the Bible.
We use most often, the Strongs Concordance, with combined dictionary, this book gives to us the direct translation, of the words that were used in the original texts, as close as can be achieved to the original meaning, when dealing with texts from antiquity. Written in Hebrew, Chaldean, Aramaic, Greek all into English.
Therefore in order to understand love in any given verse, you need to know the context in which the word love is being used. Who is it in relation to, who is speaking it, how does it fit into the context of the entire verse, how does it fit into the context of the entire chapter, how does it fit into the context of the entire book being read, how does it fit into the context of the entire Bibles use of the word love, in relation to every time this word love is used in the Bible.
You see, it isn't as simple minded as you may suppose, it does actually take quite a bit of effort to properly STUDY, (not just read), and thereby comprehend, by the process of comparison with other verses to come to a LOGICAL conclusion as to just what any given verse might be saying. But also in relation to the whole. I use Logical only being in relation to the process used, as would be done with any text you truly wanted to understand. If I wanted to understand, astrophysics for instance, it would take a number of readings of the literature on the subject, and I would also have to get any other books relating to the subject and the terminology being used, in order for me to fully understand even the smallest nuance of information. Otherwise I could come away with the belief that all astrophysicists are just wacko.
Point being I could not just give a cursory reading and come away with any semblance of intelligent understanding.
The Bible, can and has been taken very lightly by some who would say, I have read it, and it's easy to be understood if you can get past all of the contradictions.
The Bible is the most complex peace of literature ever written. There are people that have devoted their entire lives to the study of this book, looking for a contradiction, looking for anything that does not back up other verses saying the same things. They haven't found any, and neither will you, or I.
Be Blessed
JIM
Thu, 03/10/2011 - 05:12
#11
Remember jim - you too, are an atheist.
Hi jim, thanks for your even reply - it is VERY much appreciated (I've just commented on a blog where a great deal of what I said was mis-quoted or inappropriately cited.. sigh, such as it is..)
Okay, so you suggest that you obtain your definition of love from the bible? Fair enough - to be honest, I'm not sure how I define it - I didn't use a dictionary! (or the HHGTTG! 
I have no doubt at all that "reading" and "understanding" the bible are two different things - I'll go further and contend that "understanding" and "thinking about" the bible are also different things - my understanding is that the bible is not a
I might elaborate on this point too:
"If I wanted to understand, astrophysics for instance, it would take a number of readings of the literature on the subject"
...
"Otherwise I could come away with the belief that all astrophysicists are just wacko"
I doubt you would really - when discussing science, scientists are slaves to a very strict and very unyielding mistress - logic. With the same information at your disposal, you MUST come to the very same conclusions as scientists do - logic is not subjective. You might think someone is whacko when they have not explained or justified their assumptions adequately. Without training in the matter at hand, you could not arrive at the conclusion they are "wrong" or even whacko - you are PREVENTED from having that conclusion, it is inaccessible to you.
I will agree that I do not have sufficient education of the bible to be able to conclude, from the bible, that God does not exist. IPSO FACTO, I do not have enough to conclude that he DOES exist. I maintain that he MIGHT - that is all. I also maintain that Zeus MIGHT, and so on. Which brings me to a question for you - since you are demonstrably well-familiar with the bible, and therefore it seems sensible that you can argue it's validity. You also (correctly) suggest that I am not familiar with the bible, and that I cannot therefore reject god (I dont.. actually, but anyhow..) - how might this argument operate in the context of, for example, the Muslim religion? Are you familiar enough with the Quran to be able to categorically state that allah does not exist? perhaps.. but what about the vast number of other religions that you reject, perhaps more vehemently than I?
Perhaps we are barking up the wrong tree anyhow- we are NOT talking about logic in the case of religion or the bible. Logic has nothing to do with either of them.
Your final point agrees with this - even a lifetime of devotion may not lead to validation of the text. This is actually the crux of the problem (it's difficult not to inappropriately pun...), so I'll spell it out explicitly.
1. religion is not logical.
2. logic is the tool that has led to the rapid intellectual, medical and philosophical development of humanity.
3. to dispense with logic is to dispense with these developments.
So jim, this is why I refuse to reject logic. This is why I adhere to it so closely. This is why I suggest it be considered in as many cases as possible - particularly those that involve other humans.
Finally, I want to draw your attention to a point - remember jim, that YOU TOO are an atheist - for all gods but one - so when you present these points to me, you must also apply them to yourself in the context of all other religions that you have rejected
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 12:42
#12
Em
I strongly encourage you to watch a video called everything is spiritual.. It is based alot on scientific FACTS and I think you would find it very interesting..
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 02:43
#13
Atheist - Hello!!!
It seems you have some good discussions going - I would be happy to give the intellectual and evidence based reasons I first took serious notice of "Christianity" but what I really wanted to say is that I applaud your mature and respectful (and quite intelligent) approach to discussing sensitive topics that often cause tempers to flare. I respect that very much and thank you for it! Good luck with your ventures here and I truly hope you feel welcome here!
Neil
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 08:32
#15
Testimony is up
Hello again my atheist friend! I had in fact read your testimonial and found it to be refreshingly honest. I respect your views and decisions with no exception.
I just wrote and posted mine, I am using my blackberry to get internet and by extension, this site - so it took a bit longer than I had hoped to type everything that I wanted to say. Hopefully I did not ramble, I tend to when not following a tight script 
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 03:21
#16
Hi Neil - would be good to hear from you
Please do share here the reasons you came to faith in Christ. You never know who it is going to help!
Sun, 03/06/2011 - 22:28
#17
Hello em
A pastor once said "What if God didn't give us a water tight argument but he gave us a water tight person in Jesus Christ, against who in the end there can be no argument." If you just read about the life of Jesus in the gospels his life is almost inexplicable unless he is who he says he is.
Sun, 03/06/2011 - 06:30
#19
Dear Athiest
Feel free to do what you like out in PUBLIC.
Yep go out there and just let your self go.
Please don't hold back and be as outrageous as you like.
Then come back and ask me your questions.
Thanks
Sun, 03/06/2011 - 06:07
#21
Re: em in answer to your questions
Hi em
Is it ethical for a parent to
1) impose upon their child their beliefs, values, morals?
2) stop a young child from playing with rat poison?
3) search their child's room for illegal drugs?
4) discipline their child for inappropriate behavior?
5) delegate authority to another over their child?
Is it ethical for a Gov. to
1) impose laws upon their people?
2) restrict their freedom of choice, such as signs saying - stop, wrong way, yield, one way?
God created Adam equal to Himself, in His own image, but He also added a flesh and blood component which had the same attributes as He had, Adam would live forever unchanging, (never grow old) in perfect harmony with his surroundings. As we ourselves are attempting to do today.
God did not restrict Adam in any way, being made in Gods' image, he had a free will do what ever he chose.
God gave Adam absolute dominion over all of His creation, meaning Adam would determine the future course of the world, and how it would function.
But going back before the Earth was created, God had created the heavens, populated with Angels to do His bidding, some rebelled against His Rule, Authority, God did not destroy them He just cast them out of His presence, so from that point on in the heavens there existed two diametrically opposed positions known as Good, and Evil.
God Created the Heavens, and the Earth placing Adam in the middle of His paradise, possessing all of the attributes as Himself, as I said before. Gods' created being would have the same free will He possessed, making him equal with God.
The whole point of God creating man was to have fellowship with him. He created a perfectly balance, and harmoniously functioning echo system for him to live in.
But because of the rebellion that had precipitated the creation of the Earth, God out of His love for His creation, told Adam, there was a tree in the garden, that had a fruit which possessed the knowledge of Good, and Evil. (the knowledge of right, and wrong)
God not placing restrictions Adam, warned him by saying to Adam, don't eat that fruit, it will kill you.
God created Adam, did he have the ethical right to warn him of the danger contained within the fruit?
Adam had a free will, he chose not to believe God. Thereby bringing upon himself and every following generation of humans, the curse that God had warned Adam of.
Adam did not only die a physical death, he died a spiritual one as well. We are the product of that decision made by Adam, we have become 100% human, (flesh) we live our lives doing all manner of wrong (evil) because we as flesh do not possess to ability as Adam had before the fall to resist. That is the essence of what free will is. The ability to chose. It also holds us responsible for our actions.
There comes a time in our lives, when God in His infinite Mercy, gives to us a revelation of Himself, we have the choice to accept Him for who He actually is, Creator of the Heavens, and the Earth, and all the is within them. The choice we have is to acknowledge there is someone greater than ourselves, someone who is actuality The Supreme Being.
God in His infinite Mercy, reaches down to us, offering to place us back into fellowship (communion) with Himself, offering His reconciliation to us, everything we lost through Adams' fall, or rejecting it knowing that the end of our self controlled life is ultimate destruction.
Gods' revealing Himself to us is only dependent on one thing, "US". I know you have heard this before but let me explain anyway, you might actually learn something.
We are the ones that determine when God will reveal Himself to us. God in His infinite wisdom judges our hearts, and the intent of our hearts, knowing the exact moment in time when we have the ability and the desire to make an intelligent decision, because your decision will be binding for all eternity. He wants you to come back into His loving arms, but it will be your free will decision. Therefore it isn't by our intellect that we can say, OK I am ready now for you to show me your real. There comes a time in everyone's life, when we out of our hearts desire, really want to know the answer to the question, is God real. This is a time that we ourselves aren't truly aware of happening. Otherwise it would be us controlling the events, and the whole point of the exercise, is to get you to understand that you have no control over anything. That's nothing more than our self pride.
There is so much more, but if you don't get this, you won't get anything anyone says. Everything else that can be discussed is semantics, moot as you say, and circular thinking, it isn't about logic, it's about FAITH, and until you personally walk through that door into eternal life in Jesus Christ, you will never understand what we have been attempting to get you to understand. Just Know that we do not hate you, you are a fellow human being, we are all given the same choice to make, we do not think we are better than you, all we are capable of doing for you is plant some seeds into your thinking, hopefully some day they will grow to where you will have a desire to really know the truth, then you will be ready to hear directly from your Father, God. But until that happens, be aware of your surroundings, be aware that God is in fact speaking to you every day of your life, something as simple as when you drive your car God is speaking to you very quietly, stop your going the wrong way, yield your life to me, and I will show you the one way, until you do come to the knowledge of the truth.
Be Blessed
JIM
Mon, 03/07/2011 - 05:43
#23
Re: The answer
Hi em
I cannot count the times you have used the terms circular thinking, (reasoning), or illogical.
We have seen you use this same mode of thought that you disdain so much, all of your arguments go back to the same point.
You ask a question about a country, or countries that are essentially closed to outside western religious influence, the people living within these countries are all followers of the religion of the state. The two are synonymous, the laws then imposed upon it's people, can be either civil or religious laws, they (the state) do not make any kind of distinction between the two. in those countries where the wearing of the hajib is law, a person such as an (ayatollah - or - imam) have the voice in what the Gov. puts out as law, if not them specifically, then some other religious leader.
It is a similar system as that of the old USSR. there were officials of the Gov. but there were also officials of the Party, the Party had the Veto Power that the Gov. did not have, so things were done according to the Parties wishes not the Govts.
The point is, these are closed societies, as long as the people live within these societies, they are bound by the rules regulations laws of the Gov, that is also their religious leader.
When they leave the confines of the country, they are only bound by their own free will (conscience) such as the Muslims in France, those women have the right to not wear it if they do not want to. But strangely enough it seems they do want to wear it. But the Christian churches have no such law, therefore I cannot give an opinion upon religious matters I have no understanding as to why "THEY" do require the wearing of the hajib.
If a woman going to any of these countries not being a Muslim, has to wear one, that is their law, and it is in most cases I imagine State Gov. law.
***************************************
When you say
"The fundamental differences between parents and God is, of course, that God is God. Not a parent."
It is at this point you are fundamentally wrong, I am sure you will differ, but that is irrelevant.
God is a parent.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
CREATE: to cause to come into being; make or produce; to cause to happen; bring about; arrange, as by intention or design: to create
We as human beings procreate.
PROCREATE: To produce or create; originate. to bring into being.
God created the angels
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the (SONS OF GOD) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
God is the Father of all Christians
Gal 4:6
And because (YE ARE SONS), God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying,(ABBA, FATHER).
I already know to you, this is illogical thinking on our part, right? not valid scientific proof.
I keep saying it's not about logic, it's about FAITH.
Here you managed to contradict your own philosophy, you believe in the theory of evolution and then say.
"God is omnipresent, he is omnipotent, and he is certainly omni-literate"
How can you believe He is all of these things, if you also believe, He isn't what, and who He says He is, and then still be an atheist?
End "O" game, the fat lady has sung, check and mate, I will turn out the lights when I leave.
Be Blessed
JIM
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 03:11
#25
Re: No flaming
Hi em
Not wanting to insult you, I will offer some scripture for you to contemplate.
Joh 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Pro 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Pro 15:14
The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness.
If you only come away three things. 1Co 2:14 - - Pro 15:14 - - Joh 3:16
You have voiced, "our beliefs are but foolishness to you", this is because you my friend are nothing more than a mere natural man, you can have no understanding of Spiritual matters, and never will as long as you continue in the direction you are now going.
Out of your own mouth, you have declared you have no understanding in your heart, therefore being devoid of understanding you can not really be seeking knowledge either.
So what we have found, is that you neither have Understanding or Knowledge, and without these two components you also will never possess any Wisdom.
But all is not lost, if you are truly here to learn, then start the journey of a seeker. Eyes wide open, heart full of doubt, ask the questions you personally need answers to, the answers you have never gotten answered.
Last but not least is this last tidbit of information for you.
Joh 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Rom 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
In Gods' timing He will call you, when He does give you the Revelation of Jesus as your savior, don't reject it.
All of us on this forum, will be praying for Gods' mercy to be extended to you. Without you knowing of it.
This Revelation from God will come unto you soon
JIM
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 06:48
#27
Re: valid verses
Hi em
You have managed to attack my motive, and thereby my character, you have assumed what I wrote was directed at you personally. What you have done my friend, is by definition ad hominem. If I had any intention on insulting you, I most assuredly would have used the verses you answered with. My intent was pure, I had no other motive than showing you what the bible has to say for the person in your position. If you would look back at my post, you will find I did not in any way attack, demean you.
That is chapter one of our correspondence, now that you understand I am not attacking you, lets start again, you have come here wanting answers, were here to answer them. So ask before things get so out of hand with MISUNDERSTANDING that you never get any answers at all.
You have just as many preconceived ideas about us and our motives, as we have about you and yours.
So lets cut the crap and get down to some serious dialog.
I have a question for you to start with.
1) Why does the ocean not overflow it's bounds.
Be Blessed
JIM
Sat, 03/05/2011 - 04:18
#29
Re: hmmm
Hi em
I am truly sorry, I thought I had put forward a totally logical question for you.
I am sure that just about anyone on this forum would be able to answer such a simple question.
Here again is my question for you as first posed.
1) Why does the ocean not overflow it's bounds.
It is understood that the bounds of the ocean are the Coastlines of the would. The ocean stays within these bounds, flowing back and forth in rhythm and time with the tides, (circadian rhythm) never overflowing the earth, except upon special occasions ie, (Hurricanes) as you would surely agree being an astrophysicist, always returning to it's place behind the boundaries of the Coastlines. Why is this, what is the logic that says this happens, has Physics explained this phenomenon?
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Secondly
In order for you to be able to understand what I am talking about, you personally must be born again, you need to comprehend the fact, that whoever is born naturally in the flesh is flesh, and likewise whoever is born spiritually by the Spirit of God is spirit. You my friend, are still in the flesh, so don't let what I have just said confuse you, because unless you are born again, you will never see, or enter into the things that we have.
Ok lets try it this way, when the wind blows, you can hear the sound of it but you cannot tell where it came from, or where it has gone. This then is what everyone which has been born of the Spirit of God is like.
Remember, you are the one that wanted to know these things, so don't be thinking this is impossible. Maybe now you can see our difficulty, you have all kinds of doctorates, degrees, and fellowships, but even with all of that, you do not know these simplest of things. I am trying to tell you, we the people of this forum are speaking the truth about the things we know, and we have testified about the things we have seen, but you still will not believe what we have witnessed to you about.
If you are incapable of understanding the simplest things of nature by your logic, how then do think you will ever come to the knowledge of the truth that we possess, without your first coming to this same belief, (Faith) that we have in Christ?
I have already told you, at this point in your life, with all of your degrees, they do not qualify you to speak on spiritual matters, you do not possess the three qualities necessary. Knowledge, Understanding, Wisdom.
Because, the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. That's my prayer for you.555
Be Blessed
JIM
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 04:42
#31
I find the references you
I find the references you cite as flawed, mostly because they strike me as hypocritical - In particular, god "so loves the world" - that he previously drowned it?
Would you shoot a horse, or a dog, if it were injured with no hope of recovery, nor meaningful life? That would be the loving thing to do. It seems hypocritical to me that one who would accept the behavior of putting an animal out of its misery as being an act of love, would not allow for God to do likewise and with a motive of love.
Ironically, you are stating that is strikes you as hypocritical (and hence elevating yourself above the masses of hypocrites) only to betray yourself as being hypocritical about hypocrites... presuming you would admit there is a time to put an animal out of its misery.
Which brings up another dimension. Man, without God, is simply an animal, so why would one think this fictitious "God" should show him a greater response than to put him out of His misery?
Question: I get amused by some atheists who are mad at God, and in their anger and stubbornly refuse to admit he exists out of spite. If there truly IS NO GOD, what is the genesis of anger toward His Person?
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 05:14
#33
Thanks for the invite.
God
Thanks for the invite.
God has eternity at his disposal.... he has the power of resurrection at his disposal. He has the power of restoration and forgiveness at his disposal. As horrific as one may make the 5-10 minute drowning scenario, let me say I kill chickens for the freezer. God placed (in my conviction) chickens on earth for food, and hence for slaughter. They go into a sedate mode where they appear asleep, before you put the blade to the throat even. Scripture is silent on the degree of suffering at the time of drowning. Because it is silent on this, I have just as much legitimacy in saying that a God who would put a violent world out of its misery, would also anesthetize them, or call a stupor over them to minimize the 'final" suffering.
You say there are two possibilities, but I submit the above as a third possibility. You would tend to impute the barbarian motives, for what reason? Why assume it went that way and then be mad about it going that way?
Often we say God is supernatural and big enough to do it the way we think it should have been done, yet we elevate the purity and sanity of our motives above God and impute inferior motives and methods to him. Are Gods means and motives inferior, or is it simply our interpretation of them that diminishes something greater than our comprehension?
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 00:31
#35
Whats your view on Dembski, Ross, Behe et al.
These guys are theists with PhDs in Science. Have you read any of their work?
By the way, what are your academic qualifications?
Thu, 03/03/2011 - 20:49
#37
Hello
My name is Tim and I have a deliverance minestry and I am an author.You should feel welcomed at this web sight because it is one of the best sightsI have ever been to.Its great that you are willing to reach out and get answersthats cool.When I was a psychic making allot of money I to wanted to know the truth.So I got savedand nowI help people understand curses,psychic, and satanic powers.Well I hope you stay around because thisis agreat web sight Tim
Thu, 03/03/2011 - 15:49
#38
Heya anonymous-em Just
Heya anonymous-em
Just wanted to post this vid from youtube you might find interesting and/or convincing for the proof of God from a scientific, 'naturalist' point of view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5lY0TcdAw&feature=related
Thu, 03/03/2011 - 14:23
#40
Amen
Thank you Timothy Luke.
I think you did the right thing by praying 4 him.
Everthing happens for a reason & it may be that the Holy Spirit is umptioning him to seek for answers.Heavenly Father I pray that you will Bless our atheist friend & direct him according to your will.
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 04:57
#42
I think there is a
I think there is a self-evident difference between "forcing" and nudging. God may prompt us, which is to say we may simply have a thought to do something. Having that thought, we still have our choice as to agree or disagree, to act, or not act upon it. In this, our free will is engaged to determine whether we give place to the promting, or not.
You elevated her intent from a prompting to outright coercion, and then blamed her for coercion. That is not intellectually sound.
I am glad to see you are a studied person.
Without God, what is your take on origins?
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 04:57
#43
I think there is a
I think there is a self-evident difference between "forcing" and nudging. God may prompt us, which is to say we may simply have a thought to do something. Having that thought, we still have our choice as to agree or disagree, to act, or not act upon it. In this, our free will is engaged to determine whether we give place to the promting, or not.
You elevated her intent from a prompting to outright coercion, and then blamed her for coercion. That is not intellectually sound.
I am glad to see you are a studied person.
Without God, what is your take on origins?
Fri, 03/04/2011 - 13:11
#46
Even in the courts we are not
Even in the courts we are not legally permitted to "lead the witness", so why do we excuse it when god does it?
Tim
PS - I made one BIG link, because I haven't noticed that you took the time to look into where I am coming from in my love for God.
Thu, 03/03/2011 - 11:45
#49
Hi em!
Welcome to Christian-faith!
You are welcome here. It is hard to (being completely frank here) think of dialoging with you, since it is so easy for a conversation to degenerate into flame throwing. I like the tone of your blog and the circumspection with which it is written. You appear to be quite aware that we all can have unintended tones attributed to what we say, and have them not be there in our hearts. This gives us a measure of grace to converse and allow for the other to explain themselves, or apologize, if they indeed have overstepped.
I would like to bring this perspective to the table. Jesus said, (please consider him at least historically relevant -- you do believe that a man named Jesus walked the earth and that his words are accurately recorded, though in saying this, a person can question everything to avoid believing anything -- I took my wife to Long Horn Steakhouse for our anniversary, but if you pressed me to prove it, without a signed receipt, and even that could be said to be a forgery, I still cannot make you believe I went) ....
Jesus said, "according to your faith, be it unto you." I believed Him to be God and I entreated Him and the Father, as God, and they did the medically impossible, and they audibly spoke to my wife in the process... the beginning and the end of it ... and not before nor since. (hmmm, I cannot prove that to a second party. I cannot prove it was not a psychologically induced anomaly, anymore than I can prove to you I bought a lunch at Taco Bell yesterday... yet, I affirm the validity of what I am saying to be accurate)
I believed for years in God, without receiving healing when I prayed to Him. YET, when I saw the reasons I did not receive healing, and confessed where I was not following the path outlined in the Bible. When we chose to line up with scripture in our hearts and in our conduct, the Lord spoke, and immediately made open the prison doors of my wife's illness and we came out -- when medically speaking, there was no way to come out.
You may read Our Story and let me know if it means anything to you.... for surely, it means everything to me... and I am sure you can understand and respect that.
Please, allow me to pray for you, since my God tells me "no man can come to me, except the Father in Heaven draws him," and "no man can know the things of God, except the spirit of God" shows him.
You have come, asking to discuss spiritual things to learn of them. I assume you are sincere in that quest. To achieve your goal, you may need to allow one like myself to use my faith to not only explain my faith, but to entreat God to open your eyes further than what they can see in the natural. Please do not be offended in this. You are asking for a spiritual conversation, on spiritual issues, though asking it to be done in a purely natural way. Can you see the tight rope we are on? :-) So, I shall pray openly, against your wish, so that in the end, you will know what my heart before God is concerning you.
"Father, thank you for em. He has a good mind, perhaps even a good heart that is simply not good enough... for no man is adequate on his own... this is why you sent a savior, 'that whosoever believes on Him should not perish." You tell us, 'all have sinned.' You tell us, 'the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.' Father, I pray for this intelligent, considerate fellow human being. I petition you to give him eyes to see and ears to hear the mysteries of absolute truth and the reality of our need for a saviour, and for Jesus Christ specifically. He needs a saviour as much as I do. I thank you so very much for accepting this ordinary nobody I call me, and I pray you would extend your grace and faith to em to see beyond his peepers and into eternity. In Jesus' name I pray. And help him see I am not demeaning him by asking these things of you, any more than he would be demeaning me by insinuating that by my petitioning you I am appealing to an inferior mythological power that is beneath his dignity. amen."
We encourage you to visit our new Christian discussion forum, as not every page can be commented on. So please, share your wisdom, share your testimonies, share your understanding. You can register for the forum and general comments to the pages on this drupal site here.
Em, at what point in time did you become an atheist? I hope you don't mind me asking.
The Bible says "Draw nigh to God and he will draw nigh to you." That is the first statement in the Book of James chapter 4 verse 8. By coming to this sight and wanting to learn about Christianity, you are drawing nigh to God. So, what does that mean for you? He is going to start drawing nigh to you. You will find your answers, if you will just keep searching with an open mind.
Our Bible teaches us that the things which are seen are temporary, but the things that are not seen are eternal. Referenced from 2 Corinthians 4:18, which says: "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal." That's from the King James Version of the Bible. Since God cannot be seen that means He is eternal. You have a soul and spirit which cannot be seen, so they are eternal. Your body which can be seen is subject to sickness and death. It is temporary. I'm going to stop here, because I don't want to throw too much at you at one time. I'll let you chew on that for a while.