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Will there be a Secret Rapture of the Church
"Then the seventh angel sounded [the trumpet]: And there were loud
voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms
of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
(Revelations 11:15)
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall
all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST
trumpet . For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52).
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead
in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught
up together with them to meet the Lord in the air."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16,17).
"And immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened
... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of
a TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the
four winds, from one end of heaven to another.
(Matthew 24:29-31) (Italics mine).
According to many popular Bible interpreters and end-time prophecy buffs today, including some leading men of God, Jesus could come back at any moment in and secretly whisk true believers away. Those who are not ready will be left to face the rise of the Antichrist and the eventual outpouring of the wrath of God on the earth. According to most of the proponents of this view, those left behind will effectively get a second chance at salvation, because they will realise that all these end-time prophecy teachers were right after all, so now they need to believe in Jesus and get serious with God, even though they also know they are going to lose their heads under the cruel Antichrist regime.
The upshot of all this seems to be, "You should live a holy life now so you don't have to go through the Great Tribulation. But even if you don't, all is not lost, you'll get another chance after the Rapture." BUT, what if judgment comes and there is no second chance? Friends, when people die in their sins and go to hell, there is no second chance. Why should the Second Coming be any different?
One film I viewed a while back had this old gentleman with one of these charts of "God's end time prophetical calendar" after the secret rapture had taken place, who was ticking off the events as the judgments straight out of the book of revelation came down on the earth. Scary stuff.
Multiplied millions of dollars have been spent promoting this view through books, films and tapes. There's good money to be made today as a end-time bible-prophecy buff, if you can give the impression that you really know what you are talking about. But is this view correct? Is it true? Is it Scriptural? And if it is not, could there be harmful consequences for people?
What if you believe with all your heart that God has promised that you yourself will never be hauled up before antichrist authorities, that there will be a secret rapture before the AntiChrist appears? For one thing, you are a candidate for being deceived by the AntiChrist when he does come, and the Scripture indicates he will arise out of the temple of God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) [the church is the temple of God]. How could this spiritual man be the AntiChrist, if God has promised to rapture you first? Millions will either be deceived, or go on to lose their trust in God because of the persecutions they thought God had promised them they would never face. America today is ripe for such deception. If you give the people what they want to hear, it is very good for your offerings.
I am not writing as one who knows it all, but at least I am willing to admit the fact. Someone may be able to overcome all my Scriptural objections and cause me to see the true light. However, the real truth on what is in store in the last of the last days may be a little more uncomfortable than what we have been led to believe by the various pop prophecy books and films. And if that is true, its better to know now, rather than to backslide later.
I don't dispute that some people have been saved and come to Jesus out of a real conviction that these things are going to happen exactly as pop prophecy preachers have been saying. And if the end justifies the means, I guess there is a strong case for keeping silent on the subject. But the end does not justify the means, and error carries within it seeds of destruction which will eventually bear their devastating fruit.
We don't need the doctrine of the Secret Rapture to get Christians or anyone else to repent.. If it is false after all, there are some yet to be revealed major negative consequences that could easily come to pass and hurt the Body of Christ. So I think its worth speaking up, not out of a desire for controversy and endless cavilling with those who already think they know, but so that we as believers in Jesus can truly be ready for some of the tribulation which has been the normal lot of serious Christians for the last 2 millenia.
There Will Be a Rapture of the Saints
The word "rapture" does not occur in the Bible. But the Bible clearly indicates in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back for His church. We who are alive when He comes will be caught up to meet Him. Its says nothing about us going back up to Heaven for a few years after this meeting. It says nothing about a quiet event which will leave the people of the world wondering, "Where did the Christians go?" No, it will be with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and most importantly, with the trumpet of God. And at the sounding of the last trumpet, it will be the end of the game for the antichrist and those who have followed him.
When will the Rapture Take Place?
God has given us enough clues in the Scripture to put to rest the foolish speculations of secret raptures. If only we will read them and take the word as it is written, there is little room for doubt on the subject. The key to it all is the repeated emphasis on angels but especially the TRUMPET of God. If you believe the Scripture is inerrant, and God knows what He is putting in there, you ought to be willing to really consider why this trumpet blast is mentioned in so many portions of the Scripture that have to do with the Second Coming of the Lord.
It won't hurt to repeat the Scripture quotations I included at the beginning of this article.
"Then the seventh angel sounded [the trumpet]: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
(Revelations 11:15)"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST trumpet . For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(1 Corinthians 15:51, 52)."For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16,17)."And immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened ... and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another.
(Matthew 24:29-31) (Italics mine).
These Scriptures, when taken together, make the following clear.
1. The resurrection of the righteous - those who have been effectually restored to God though the work of Jesus on the cross - this resurrection will take place at the sounding of the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52). It should be pretty obvious, but there will be no other prophetic trumpet blasts after the last one. If there were, none of the preceding blasts could be properly called the "last" one.
2. It is not reasonable to suppose that the trumpet blast and resurrection event in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is somehow different to the blast in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. No, there are too many parallels. The Scripture talks about the first resurrection being the resurrection of the righteous. It is the resurrection of those who did not bow to the Antichrist system (no matter what age they lived in). "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." (Revelation 20:5). There is no general resurrection of righteous believers before this one. If there was, they should call it the "second" resurrection or perhaps the third or fourth.
My conclusion is, 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 occur at the same time, the time of the blasting of the last trumpet.
3. But there is a trumpet of God being blasted at the Second Coming of Christ (see Matthew 24:31). This trumpet blast cannot be after the "last trumpet" which we have proven was blown at the "rapture". No, the Second Coming takes place at the time of the Rapture. So there is no "Third Coming". This Coming of the Lord with the trumpet blast and the angels gathering ELECT all takes place "after the [great] tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). The elect were not raptured seven years before the last trumpet blows. No, because the Bible clearly teaches that the first resurrection of the righteous happens at the Second Coming of the Lord.
If anyone can wiggle out of this logic and thorough analysis of the written Word of God, they have yet to confront me with it. Some Bible teachers say, "Don't think like this. People get the wrong doctine when they start to think about that trumpet." But why should we throw out part of the Scriptures to please some popular Bible teacher who is telling the people what they want to hear? So often they are telling something like this: "Come to Jesus and you'll be rich like me. There will be no end-time suffering for those who do what God wants, which is to sow generously to my ministry. No, God wants you to be rolling in cash and if you please God you will never suffer tribulation. I'm going up before any of this trouble comes. Have faith like I do!" Sounds pretty good as long as you don't check it out first.
The fact is that "we must through many tribulations enter the Kingdom of God". (Acts 13:34). "All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12). Yes, if we are faithful to God and persist in prayer we may be spared a lot of the trials we would otherwise have. But anyone who thinks they are going to get through without hardship, without perseverence, patience and endurance is just having themselves on.
There are major persecutions being planned for those who are active in evangelism. Always have been somewhere in the world. Believers are being martyred for their faith by the hundreds on a daily basis. The true rapture doctrine assures us that Jesus is coming again for us, and whether we live or die, we will have eternity to enjoy with Him forever. Those who die in Christ will not miss out on the main event. We can be comforted with these words.
The false secret rapture doctrine could sound like an exhortation to godliness, but really, it is a false teaching which carries the potential for doing a lot of damage in the dangerous tmes ahead.
There is something a lot worse than facing the wrath of the Antichrist. And that is, facing the wrath of Almighty God. The worst men can do is nothing compared to the horrors of hell. The majority of people who go to hell will be really surprised they ended up there. They thought they had plenty of time to party on, and spit in the face of Almighty God and His laws, putting shame on the name of Jesus. Perhaps some of them thought they would wait and see until after the rapture. No friends, God is not mocked. All of us, if we are truly wise, will keep plenty of oil in our lamps and seek to shine for Jesus now, whether the world likes it or not.
Michael Fackerell
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Comments
Secret Rapture - - - NAAAA
Why is it , when all of the charts, are laid out, there is never a mention of this PROPHESY of Moses ever taking place?
Deu 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Paul then reiterates this same Prophesy to the Romans. In doing so he expounds upon it for the benefit of the Gentile Believers.
Rom 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:11,12
11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12) Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:25,26
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, (UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN).
26) (AND SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED): as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The question I have then is.
1) If all of Israel is supposed to be provoked to jealousy by us "The Church" and the fullness of the Gentiles coincides with this event occurring, doesn't that kind of blow a hole in any Pre, Mid, Post Tribulation theory's anyone can come up with?
Eph 1:10
That in (THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES) he might (GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE "ALL" THINGS IN CHRIST), both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
2) If we are now in the Dispensation of Grace, when does the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times, begin?
When Paul says gather together in one "ALL" things in Christ, how could anyone be left after the Rapture.
Except those poor souls which have decided to attacking Israel in the Battle of Armageddon.
Just curious
JIM
Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib
Hi, I'm trying to figure out which position is best supported by scripture. Your article is well written and backed with references to scripture. But I wonder if I could get your thoughts on two articles from a different website that supports the Pre-Trib position which seems to also be backed by scripture.
http://rapturewatch.cephasministry.com/324%20To%20Escape%20all%20these%20Things%20-Part%201.html
and
http://rapturewatch.cephasministry.com/325%20The%20Last%20Trump%20-%20Part%20II.html
To summarise, the first article quotes Luke 21:35-36
"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
So Christians are to pray that we can escape the tribulation?
The second article is saying that the trumpet mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 is not the same as the last trumpet in Revelation. That author supports this by quoting Isaiah 27:13 and Zechariah 9:14 where other trumpets are blown seemingly after the Revelation trumpets.
Another argument I've heard elsewhere that supports pre-trib is that while the world is being ripped apart in Revelation, there is no mention of the Church during this. The reason (so the argument goes) is that the Church is not around during the tribulation.
I'd value your opinion on these things as I continue to research about the end times.
Quote from Michael "the
Quote from Michael
"the foolish speculations of secret raptures"
Just because someone believe in the secret rapture doesn't make him or her foolish, nor does it makes his or her honest biblical analysis a mere "speculation"
I think we should give Christians with a different position than us a fair hearing before hurling accusations and ridicule upon them. It's more Christian that way.
and quote
" But why should we throw out part of the Scriptures to please some popular Bible teacher who is telling the people what they want to hear? So often they are telling something like this: "Come to Jesus and you'll be rich like me. There will be no end-time suffering for those who do what God wants, which is to sow generously to my ministry. No, God wants you to be rolling in cash and if you please God you will never suffer tribulation. I'm going up before any of this trouble comes. Have faith like I do!" Sounds pretty good as long as you don't check it out first."
More accusations in the last quote, is there something wrong for being a popular Bible teacher? Just because you disagree with someone, that makes that person gullible and intellectually dishonest as to believing what he or she wants to hear?
Can you give me names of any TV evangelists who ever says so plainly that if you give them cash you will be prosperous and please God? I don't think even false prophets would be so foolish as to say that so plainly on TV.
I agree with jesseedavis and dougw that both pre-trib and post-trib have some worthy arguments to consider.
After many years of reflection, I think I was able to eliminate the chaff from the wheat and find out what God has really said in the scripture about the "secret Rapture". See http://bible-verses-insights.com/2010/01/what-is-the-rapture/
I think the reasons why there are so many disinformation about the Rapture are because of: pride, jealousy, denominational-ism, heroism, man-pleasing, and self-protect-ism.
Satan would be able to use people who had these struggles, or demons, to promote his own propaganda and disinformation about the Rapture. His interest is of course getting more people into hell.
because you say don;t make it so
anyone can mix up scriptures and change the truth,its been going on for years,people try to drag down any good news from the bible and make a case out of it,well that can be done both ways,as far as a secret rapture,it is no secret,2nd what profit could anyone make 1 way or the other, dependant apon who is even alive at that time is the only mystery. gloom and doom is not Christ,he came to so that we can have life more abundantly,here and after, It easy to put foot in mouth,but taking it out hurts worst. God is able to keep his sheep. If the church goes through tribulation,it will be either killed for its testimony or take the mark. there will be no saints coming with him.42 months after the treaty,with antichrist,everyone must take a mark or die,the first 3.5 years or 42 months,there is no mention of a church of any kind,only a false prophet.and a world religion. seems odd that God would leave the church out of his book here,being he has started rev, with the word church 14 times in the first 6 chapters. what happened to it? How can I or anyone else make money with this ,nay, This is like saying the antichrist will come in wearing a big sign saying its me I'm the antichrist. as a thief in the night Christ will get his bride, when armageddon comes,he will be expected.no thief comes when he is expected. When Christ places his foot on the mount of olives,an earthquake will happen,by the way there is a fault in the earth under the mount., the mountain will split and the line will go right through the eastern gate of the city,through the same entrance,he went through 2000 years ago. now if he covers this in his book,why would after rev chapters 6,no mention of the bride of Christ,the church,the saints,the gentile converts,nothing!! yet the jew sacrifices are told to start,a treaty is signed,a temple is built,the outer court of it is given to the arabs to tread for 42 months,yet no church,strange.did God forget about the church?did antichrist kill them all? common sense is a gift, if any man ask wisdom,God will give it. the only way a treaty will be,if there is no divdion of religions to oppose it.the restrainer of antichrist and his take over is the church.now if someone will pay me for this,I will send them a stamped envelop. ha ha by the way I have seen it twice in my life,2 visions, God reveals his will to his own. how many chances will God give ,7 times 70,not willing that any should perish
Hey is not calling anyone
Hey is not calling anyone foolish...let’s try not to be so quick to be offended. We need to get something straight. God is not the author of confusion. We (man) are wrong and the Word is right. Scripture justifies scripture, not Mans opinion justifies God's Word. It's absolutely wrong for people to add their opinion and use that as an excuse to teach! Did not Paul tell us by the Holy Spirit, Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness(James 3:1). For this very reason we ought not to teach, unless God has called us to teach and we know and it’s confirmed. If not many will deceive many why? Because a lot of Christians don’t study the bible (which is weird).And again not weird, because the enemy is working so hard to keep us away from the things of God (Ephesians 6:12) I don’t agree with any man .I agree with the Word of God if the word says rapture before the last trump some will be caught in the air who are worthy, then and only then will there be an escape route to escape. The WORD strictly says Pray that you be counted worthy to escape this tribulation. Are you praying?
Secret rapture
I contend that there are such things as "foolish speculations about the secret rapture". But that is not the same thing as saying that believing in the secret rapture makes one foolish.
In earlier years I have heard so much talk about this or that world event indicating that the rapture could happen in the year 19xx, and things like this. This is an example of what I refer to as "foolish speculations about the secret rapture". They are foolish not only because they are proven wrong again and again, but also, because a lot of effort seems to have gone into the creation of these theories. This effort would have been better spent on teaching something SOLID, preaching Christ, or any number of things really. All it does it weaken Christians as they conclude that it is hardly worth the effort to do anything here on earth that requires even a medium term view.
That leads to mediocrity and lots of time wasting.
I take note that you have not attempted to refute my position based on the Bible, you have merely taken issue with the tone of my expression.
"More accusations in the last quote, is there something wrong for being a popular Bible teacher? Just because you disagree with someone, that makes that person gullible and intellectually dishonest as to believing what he or she wants to hear?
Can you give me names of any TV evangelists who ever says so plainly that if you give them cash you will be prosperous and please God? I don't think even false prophets would be so foolish as to say that so plainly on TV. "
The fact is that many "popular Bible teachers" disagree over major issues, and minor ones too. Being popular carries with it no guarantee of being truthful. And so I am saying we should not be afraid to disagree with people just because they are popular.
And no, disagreeing with me does not make a person gullible or intellectually dishonest. Did I say or suggest that it did?
As for false preachers and teachers on TV, they have a little more polish than to say that giving them money will make you rich, but they say it indirectly, they want to tie the idea of "having faith" to the idea of "planting money in their ministry". Since it is faith that pleases God, the gullible, who hang on the words of such preachers, will think they are pleasing God when they give to such "fleece the flock" ministries.
Fair. I do disagree with your
Fair.
I do disagree with your position about Rapture, and I put a link there to my post on Rapture.
My original concerns to your post on the Rapture was that you sounded bitter. I was concerned that you may took on a wrong theology position about the Rapture because of bitterness, not fair interpretation of the scripture.
That's why I have taken issue with the tone of your expression.
peace. I am ok with you again now.
secret rapture
Hi, I agree there is no secret rapture, I used to believe in it, as when I was saved I came to the Lord without any prior knowledge of Him or the scriptures, as I was not raised up with any knowledge of the Lord or religions of any kind for the matter, which is a good thing. Anyway I believe I was saved in the last days where Jesus warned there would be many decptions lying signs and wonders, Paul warned day and night of the wolves that he knew would come into Gods flock and deceive many, satan can appear as an angel of ligth, so can his servants. We are also warned that the day of the Lord would not come, until there was first a falling away, and the Son of Perdition was revealed. The Lord said when He came the first time, that they would not accept Him, when He came in His Fathers name, but He warned that one would come in his own name, and they would accept him, which is the antichrist. With the antichrist, his coming is marked by lying signs and wonders that could deceive the very elect if that was possible. People forget that there are many men preaching in churches that are wolves in sheep clothing, and satan, has hidden the warnings of the Lord Jesus Christ, behind the cleverly invented slogan of God is doing a new thing. We are encouraged in Gods word not to believe every spirit but to test them, and this goes with scriptures too, as satan is very clever at twisting scriptures out of context, so each time I have been deceived the Lord, has taken me back to the only book that exposes each lie and that is His word, and all through His word He tells us that the last days would be marked with many being deceived by false prophets, teachers, lying signs and wonders, and He added that those whome do not love the truth will believe the lies. The false doctrines are not neutral, behind them are demons, and we are accountable not to believe every christian, for many wear labels also, we are called to search the scriptures for ouseleves, to be certain. Plus, also, when I hear christians saying oh but this person seems sincere, and we have one Spirit, etc... that is true, but, a wolf and false prophet can appear sincere, what counts is what Gods word says on any matter, and with the comforter the Holy Spirit He will lead those who test the spirits and doctrines to Gods word and reveal the truth to them. The great falling away is here now, as people everywhere are going to teachers to have their itching ears tickled with false doctrines just as the Lord warned. I have come to the conclusion it is very serious to be certain, not to put our trust in men. Plus, Jesus warns us again, and again, to watch, that he uses the description of coming as a theif to the world, not to His children, He warns us to watch, to endure to be obedient until His coming, and the those that are alive at His coming do not precede those that have died, plus, He says, He comes with His angels, to gather His elect from the four corners of the earth and heavens, we are with Him in the air, as the angels said, to the Lords diciples, when the Lord rose up into the air, why do you look up, this same Jesus that you saw, going up into the clouds will return in like manner, and He said also, He comes twice not three times, He came the first time to bear sin, the second time, to bring salvation to those whom are waiting for Him. He is also bringing a crown to those whom have loved His appearing. It is great to see christians whom have not been deceived by the lie of the secret rapture, that still go to Gods word, as their final authority. God bless
secret rapture
There is no secret,its written in the bible. just as much as everything else, as far as preachers being for money or not,isn;t everyone, but David had better sense not to pick on saul.because he was once God;s annoited, many preachers were called of God, their to answer to him not us. No matter who you are,lay not your hand to God's preachers,no good comes from it,but a stumbling block to babes in Christ. the rapture is pretrib,and because of it many will find God during the 7 year trib they missed, God is a God of 2nd chances. the rapture is for the church,the second coming is for the leftovers and the Jew.
secret rapture?
Holyroller_11: I personally agree with the pre-trib view scripturally. It is not a subject that necessarily will send us to hell. The biggest point that is considered divisive is that we are either high and mighty to go through such tribulation or escapism mentality.
The truth is that today we go through tribulation and some put their lives on the line for Christ as we should be willing to do as Paul did everyday and rejoice for the hope of a physical resurrection. That is why he said I die daily. We are also to occupy until he comes whether it is a pre-mid-post rapture.
Michael gave Revelation 11:15. This is the 7th trump and last of the tribulation. This is why they believe that it is the same as 1 Corinthians 15:52. However, this cannot be true because of the previous verse, verse 51; Behold I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, The Kingdom of Heaven which is the millennial kingdom reign which Christ talks about in Revelation 11:15 was never a mystery. The rapture was of the church was a mystery just as much as the church of the jew and gentile in one body alike was a mystery to the jews. This is why Peter was shocked with the vision of the clean and unclean. The 7 trumpets in Revelation are understood in the light of the Revelation 6:16-17.
Concerning the 1st and 2nd comings, it so named for the jews rejected Christ at the 1st coming when Christ was to set up the kingdom and did not. The rejection can be seen in Matthew 23:37-39. Acts 1:6-7, has the disciples asking Jesus about restoring the kingdom and he said it wasn't for them to know, only the father knew. Obviously, the kingdom wasn't restored because Israel was destroyed in A.D. 70 and didn't even become a nation again until 1948. Even now they are blinded to God as a nation; 2 Corinthians 3:15. This will not happen until the time of the gentiles has come in; Romans 11:25. The second Coming is so named because it will be the Second time Christ comes back to establish the nation of Israel. The 1st coming he was the suffering Messiah Isaiah 53. The second time he will be the conquering Messiah; Jude 1:14; Revelation 19:11-15.
The 1st and 2nd resurrections are so named because the 1st has to do with believers and the 2nd has to do with unbelievers.
In Revelation, the 2 witnesses will be raptured from the dead to heaven. The 144,000 are raptured to heaven alive. Revelation 11:7-12; Revelation 14:1-5.
Those who go through the beast kingdom and are killed are in heaven in Revelation 15. These are jewish and gentile believers for they sing the song of Moses and the lamb.
In Revelation 20:4 shows the believers who were the blessed dead Revelation 14:13; on thrones and judging. There is no mention of living believers being raptured. And in verse 5 it says; But the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were finished. The point is that it is a continuation of the dead. This definitely implies that there are no living believers raptured at this time.
I'll stop here, but, I think any one with a logical mind could see that this is not a ridiculous point of view and not worthy of divisiveness of hell and brimstone.
God is the God of 2nd chances but, it will not be as easy as one might think which, is another discussion. The 2nd coming will be a wonderful thing for the Lord himself will rule and reign personally with the saints of the earthly call and the heavenly call. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
Jerry
I agree,regardless,as long as we make it, but the word church is written 14 times in rev 1--6,after this, the words lamb and temple are mentioned though all the 7 years,also church is not in the old testiment,why ,because it concerns Jews ,and what is not raptured, also why have a trib at all,except a 2nd chance after the world realizes the church was right all along, we the saved now,are having our tribulation now,and to keep us from another 1,we will be ith Christ,while he tries the rest to give a chance to the jew and whosoever will. the return of Christ is refering to him being on earth,and on the mount of olives,the rapture is in the air,instead of sending his angels to get us,he comes in person,the word church is the key,jews don't use church,therfore when it is said,points to believers of Christ,today and back to the deciples,which will meet the Lord in the air also,plus the 24 elders,in heaven at rev,4;1 also a trumpet,and at that last toot of the horn,we will be gone,so why people call it secret is beyond me,I know about it,and others,it is no secret, If you can be raised from the dead,eat fish and fly away in front of 500 people,then he can come and get me whenever he chooses.
Mystery revealed
Holyroller_11: 1 Corinthians 15:51; Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.
v 52; In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
The resurrection was an old testament doctrine. (John 11:24). However, this resurrection is a mystery.
The kingdom was not a mystery for even in Jesus day He said; Repent for the kingdom is at hand.
The resurrection in Jesus day and in Revelation are the same and were not a mystery.
It's interesting to note that John 11:23-24 was talking about Lazarus who had died. John 5:28-29; talks about those in the grave rising up; the good to the resurrection of life and the evil to the resurrection of damnation. This scripture talks about the resurrection of the dead. There is no mention of those who are alive and remain being caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye in these passages. In Revelation 20:4-5 speaks of the resurrection of the dead, not the living, because you have those who had been martyred by the Antichrist and the dead unbelievers who had 1000 years to wait until their resurrection. All these scriptures are in harmony. They also harmonize with scriptures such as Daniel 12:2; which, talks about those who were asleep in the dust of the earth; where some will awake to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Even Hebrews 6:1-2; which most people think are new testament doctrines only, misunderstood that they are really old testament doctrines in the context and it talks about the resurrection of the dead in verse 2.
So, the rapture of those alive and those dead being in the same resurrection as in 1 Thessalonians 4:16_17 was a mystery and has been revealed by Paul. So, today it is no secret.
Just, a side note; though, church is not exactly mentioned in the old testament, Acts 7:38, Stephen actually calls the old testament House of Jacob from Exodus, he calls the church in the wilderness. Mysteries revealed: the church in the wilderness and the rapture. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
rapture
Best thing I can say is be prepared. Because He is coming back and sooner than later! Praise God!
rapture ready
Today would be a good day for me,I have no plans that can't wait,even so come quickly ,Lord Jesus.amen
secret rapture re
This keeps popping up,so I will ask this, when Christ returns to set his feet on the mount of Olives, with 10000s of his SAINTS,where did they come from? and why would the dead in Christ meet the Lord in the air,when all was needed is to meet at the foot of mt. Olive. HOW PLAIN IS IT,that the church of today and of the past since the upper room, will be CAUGHT UP in the AIR,to MEET the LORD,and to forever be with him.
Rupture
Take your blood pressure meds... there... you ready to hear from me? :)
How do you expect the church to meet Christ at Mount of Olives if they do not first meet him in the air? Will they be dragged across land and sea? The dead in Christ are dead and buried. They will arise out of their graves and in the air is as good a place as any... unless God needs to render a defense from our sophisticated theologies :)
I believe there is no rapture. just resurrection, in scripture. The first resurrection which is to happen at the return of Christ is for the righteous saints then and now. We meet him in the air and let him establish our habitation in Jerusalem as he destroys the armies of Armageddon. How long do we think it will take to dissolve people? They will die on their feet, and then the work begins of cleaning up and establishing the Kingdom of God on earth.
After the thousand years there will be the second resurrection when all will be resurrected to judgment, some to everlasting life, and some to eternal judgment, and the Lake of Fire will be fired up.
There, are we all okay now???
Timothy 2
the meeting at the mount of olives, the saints were in heaven with Jesus for 7 years,and are coming in the clouds with him at this time,no dragging,who are we talking about here,God is well able to handle this, but it seems if draging was the issue,the dead in Christ that rise first,why go up,and as you say drag them down the same day,to the mount.if you put it your way,seems more DRAGING your way than mine. also you say it is a disappointment to be raptured,rather than be forced to tribulation twice, son,your working too hard. relax. I think we are making progress to agree on the last 1000 years,but I have hopes for you yet,I 'll teach you somthing 1 day.ha ha,but if you want to go through the trib,I'm sure its possible. maybe he should drag all the saints up from the grave and make all of them this past 2000 years go though the 7 year trib,just to make sure they suffered enough,what do you think? this is what you say,
To go back to your
To go back to your question:
why would the dead in Christ meet the Lord in the air,when all was needed is to meet at the foot of mt. Olive.
dragging simply has to do with the absurdity of your question. It appears you are saying that meeting at the foot of the Mount of Olives does away with the resurrection of the dead to meet him in the air on his return to the Mount of Olives. I am simply saying what scripture says... the Lord will return. He will descend upon the Mount of Olives. The dead in Christ will rise first and we which remain shall meet him in the air.
The problem is people say he is going back to heaven at this time of meeting, when there is no verse in the Bible that says "Jesus is going back to heaven" at this time. These things are fit into a theory of rapture and then they are used to 'prove' that theory.
Are we having fun yet? The point is, regardless of how this plays out and proves me right and you wrong, or vice-versa, we love and exhort each other, for He is coming again! Let us be found doing our Father's business that He might in that day say, "well done good and faithful servant."
Timothy
This will not set me off,regardless ,pre,mid,or post,but what you are saying makes no sense,we don't have to be hung on a cross to prove we are christians or not, now if you think you need that,have at it, but as I have said,the CHURCH is in its tribulation now,the whole point of tribulation is primary for Israel. Chirist first started with the first born(Israel) then left ,and turned to the gentile,1967 began the CLOSING of the gentile age,or the church age, antichrist will set up his kingdom in Jerusalem,the jews are looking for their JESUS to come in power,thats why they rejected Jesus,because he came in as a baby,not the king of kings to restore Israel as the great nation of the world. I go even further the gentile nations are not the main target for salvation any more,the jew is.tribulation was not the purpose for the church at all,because the gentiles accepted Christ and spead his word all over the world,but God would not turn his back on Israel forever,as I said the word church is missing after chapter 6,because it left in chapter 4. Antichrist is turned loose on Israel.it really is plain and simple. but I am not surprised to be oppisite from you,I am getting used to that,but the good thing here is,this will not cause a change in our direction,no matter when it is,as long as we make it, I will say this,if the watch man knew when the thief was coming he would catch him, If I was a knowledgable sinner,I would know when Antichrist appeared and the sacrifices started,then within 7 years Christ would return,so I could live like the devil until then,and get saved at the last year,but then I would almost know the day, but the church will be at the marrage supper while Israel is being redeamed by their trbulation .who are the 144000? ,jew who are they preaching 2 ? the jew ., think, and see what happens.God bless . almost forgot,the pentecostal holiness church says and always has said pre trib ,for 300 years,
LOL, "I am getting used to
LOL, "I am getting used to being opposite you." Me too, brother!
Re: Prophesy concerning Israel
Hi Joseph
I asked a question the other day and nobody has even mentioned it since, so I will repost it here if you don't mind.
My original post is Secret Rapture, NAAAA if you want to read it all.
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Why is it , when all of the charts, are laid out, there is never a mention of this PROPHESY of Moses ever taking place?
Deu 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
Paul then reiterates this same Prophesy to the Romans. In doing so he expounds upon it for the benefit of the Gentile Believers.
Rom 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
This is a Prophesy concerning the redemption of Israel as a Nation, it says they "WILL" be provoked to jealousy by a foolish nation, "US"
How can they come to Christ during the Tribulation?
If we are not here, how then can this Prophesy ever be fulfilled?
The question is how does this prophesy fit in to all of the Pre, Mid, Post calculations?
JIM
Jim and Tim
moses,didn't mention seals either,yet there in Rev, I also asked,why is church meantioned 14 times,1---6,and suddenly all writing is in a jewish tone,and the word church is not in old test,or until rev 19,why because the trib,is going on and the church is not there,you ask how will israel know without the church,they have bible,the Lord will open their eyes,with the antichrist,just like hitler shown them the way home in 48. also the church has done its job,to prepare the world,as much as it can,and to spread the word,to every nation,the gentile day is over,at the begining of trib,and even now you see the signs of a great falling away of true christian faith,for many their chance did pass,and the signs and wonders are much more scare than in times before 67,and praying through is almost a lost knowledge ,since 67,false bibles,religion,increased greatly along with knowledge,which is not always a good thing.knowledge and faith don't always agree.
The Jews believe they are the
The Jews believe they are the chosen ones and hence the only ones to know God. Zechariah mentions "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."
The Jews cannot be provoked to jealousy until they make the connection that we gentile believers are indeed in relationship with Jesus Christ.
The day of the Lord's return to rule, He will destroy those who surround Jerusalem to destroy it. The saints coming with Him. The Jews will see him and see the nail scarred hands. They will of course recognize Him as their Messiah, given He is coming to save them as a nation and coming in the manner they expected 2,000 years ago. When they see him, they will see the scars of crucifixion, and they will be convicted of the fact that the Christians were right all along and had the special relationship with him, that they had assumed they had all along. This will move them to jealousy, even as a girlfriend who may come to a picnic and see her boyfriend holding another girl's hand... except with Jesus, the fullness of the bride is found in Jew and Gentile together, not one or the other.
Sorry, I did not see your post earlier.
secret rapture
Holyroller_11: Post tribbers like Catholics who are of the preterists persuasion believe that the Church has to go through the tribulation to be refined and because they believe in replacement theology because their hermeneutics of the tribulation propels them to believe i the historical fulfillment in A.D. 70. This is impossible because the KoH which is the millennial kingdom reign when the kingdoms of the world become Christ (Revelation 11:15; 19:11-15) This did not happen in A.D. 70. as we can still see. They have to spiritualize scripture or give half truths to prove their point. Also, they have to build up straw men and places historically that they cannot collaborate anything with. They do the same thing with Apostolic succession.
There are others who believe in Post Trib rapture in belief of purification for the church. The true church is never divided or trodden down for the head is Jesus Christ.
We are being purified by the washing of the water of the word. The apostle Paul expresses this is Ephesians 5:26-27. This is in the church age and it was talking about men loving their wives and Christ loving the churches. People who believe this doctrine are more works orientated thinking.
It is the jews that have this mindset in the tribulation because they will be backslidden and will be trying to find God through the written law and will eventually find God and he will forgive them and write his law on their hearts and they won't have to taught anymore. Hebrews 8:1-13.
In Revelation 11:18; we will be in Heaven being judged for our works. This is 3 years before the battle of Armageddon when Christ will come back with the saints. God bless!. Jerry Kelso
Nice theories. I have a very
Nice theories. I have a very hard time believing in a rapture to escape tribulation when tens of thousands of Christians are in concentration camps in North Korea alone and men are beaten and killed each week, while governments protect the murderers and arrest the victims. Tell these suffering saints who endure rape, torture, brainwashing, etc, that there is not going to be a tribulation.
Just saying it like I see it. I do not have confidence in the premises or the foundations of rapture theology as the Bible is clearly understood to say otherwise and current conditions belie escape for a select few.
Shalom, Lets all be about our Father's business and in the end, we will find ourselves on the right side of the ledger and will all be in agreement as we see prophecy fulfilled.... Prophecy is often spoken to be understood in hindsight, not foresight, so let us not quibble about these things. Thanks, Tim
Timmothy 3
boy you have been busy, are you trying to say these that suffer now,need to suffer again,people die every day in the Lord,their life was full of tribulation,not everyone is nailed to the cross,they suffer sickness,loss of family,hardness from people,all kinds of pain.and live and die fighting the devils of this world who are trying to steal their salvation,and their loved ones salvation,this is tribulation also. do they not suffer enough to suit you that they should also suffer again,if thats the case,then the dead should still be resurected in the beginning of the trib,and run them though it also,make them hurt some more.truly this doesn't make sense to you.people suffer in Christ and not in Christ,but because of their suffering,doesn't make them christians or non christians,ony the blood sacrifice of Christ does that, who would be disapointed if they didnot go though tribulation,or who would be less of a christian if he was "KEPT FROM THE HOUR OF TRIBULATION" the whole reason for being caught up is for the christian, according to you,why would the dead be raised to be at the mount of olives at all,Christ has enough help in heaven already to defeat the armies of this world,and set up his kingdom.what would be the point at all.you can''t find in the 7 years of trib,any reference at all of an army of born again saints ,or the word church at all,expain that, in plain language wher is the true church in rev 6-----19,
theory?
Timothy Luke, I don't really understand your line of reasoning. Those in concentration camps and saints who endured atrocities has been happening in each age and is now happening. They are already in tribulation. There have been many people who have lived their lives and not suffered tribulation like many others. Paul said that he gladly suffered to be a witness for his flock and was glad that they didn't necessarily go through what he did. God had a specific reason for him going through his trials. Read 2 Corinthians 11 and 12. This doesn't mean that some didn't suffer in some way. There didn't seem to be an excruciating amount of persecution in the early church across the board anymore than some in this age. I realize there is another side of the coin with history. The point is each age was required, whether in the age of conscience or the written law to be obedient. Under the written law of Moses if they obeyed they were blessed to the fullest extent and would not be persecuted. There were times they were obedient and blessed and did not see persecution. So the argument is a mute point.
Paul said, I die daily because he could be killed at any time by the judaizers for the cause of Christ. We are to be willing to die for God in this same age and be willing to stand up for God and our hope of heaven.
Is it unfair of God relating to man for giving him gradual revelation and thus them before us not enjoying the full benefits of the age of grace. That doesn't make us any better than them, but, it doesn't make them any less either for God gave his best at that time. The old covenant was glorious but, now the new covenant is much more glorious and is built on better promises.
We are to occupy until he comes and not have an escape mentality at all. So these are not any reasons that the church has to go through the great tribulation.
Ephesians 1:4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and withou blame before him in love
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will .
Ephesians 5:25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it.
Ephesians 5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
Ephesians 5:27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
The jews are the ones that have to be purified by tribulation for they are backslidden and have to go through the fire Zechariah 13:8-9.
I completely understand your reasoning and I understand that many people have this escapism mentality. But, the true reason they have that is not because this doctrine is wrong or dangerous. It is because they don't understand about putting their life on the line for the cause of Christ and are ignorant of occupying until he comes.
At the same time, there is nothing wrong with desiring or believing that we may or will miss it.
Though I believe and have shown here that it will be pre trib my mindset of living with God doesn't change if it turns out to be post trib.
Paul said, we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices and this is more reason to know the word, be ready at all times to fight the good fight of faith.
Revelation talks about the first class of people who are killed are those souls under the altar. They are ready for God to avenge them and they are told to wait until their brethren are killed till all be fulfilled. Those last will be the ones who have not taken the mark of the beast or the number of his name, etc. The first company is killed and doesn't have to go through the mark of the beast fiasco. The second company goes through the worst part and is called the blessed dead in Revelation 14 and is in heaven in Revelation 15. These are jews and gentiles for they sing the song of Moses and the Lamb. This is right before the 7 vials which is set aside for those who took the mark. In Revelation 20 there is only the resurrection of the dead which is an old testament doctrine Hebrews 6:2. There is nothing said about those who are alive and remain being caught up. Those who remain in the battle of Armageddon will be a part of the earthly people in the kingdom, such as the jewish remnant from the wilderness and those who will be scattered and survive. The 144,000 are raptured in the middle of the tribulation as the manchild. The 2 witnesses will be caught up together by themselves not with living people.
Now this is Bible, and not a theory. You are welcomed to present your scriptural view if you'd like.
We do agree to be about our Father's business, but, many things of this nature boil down to proper hermeneutics. We have to pinpoint how motives come into play through doctrines. Sometimes we use to much generalization and our opinions and assumptions we place as motives in doctrine to prove a position wrong, especially if people seem to dictate that thought. Now I am saying this as a norm for many but, surely not stereo typing every individual christian or trying to say they have a bad motive cause they said it.
The bottom line is that many times the correct understanding of scripture and motive will dispel the divisiveness of many of our doctrinal beliefs.
Prophecy in general is nothing to quibble about, but, at the same time, how a person believes prophecy can and most of the time determines what kind of doctrine they believe. We are to exhort, expound, reason, etc.etc. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
I appreciate the beliefs you
I appreciate the beliefs you have. I will comment to the point of "there is nothing wrong with believing that we may or will miss it." To believe one will miss it would bring a profound sense of disappointment if these things are indeed not so. This sense of disappointment will come at a most inconvenient time of the severe testing of one's faith and could undermine them in their ability to hold fast the faith once delivered.
And yes, while we have liberty to discuss such things, we also know that there comes a point when we are entertaining 'questions gendering strife" and are to cease. Of course, I guess there was no strife until I registered an opposing opinion. :) (not saying you are in strife - just messing around!)
Beliefs
Timothy Luke; You are missing the point and only giving your reasoning. Whether you believe in pre, mid, or post we have to give our scriptures and weigh them out against each other.
Personally, I have no strife in contending for the faith.
I never said there was anything wrong with believing if you may or will miss it in your context. Sorry, for the wrong choice of words. As a plain statement it is wrong. In the context it is right because there is nothing wrong with believing in the pre-trib rapture. The whole position of pre-rapture is there is reason to be on watch and not miss it There is nothing wrong with believing with Pre-rapture for people need tp accept Christ now, for now is the day of salvation and God's spirit will not strive with man always. There needs to be no wasting time in accepting him and living for him.
Sorry, for the wrong choice of words when I meant something else. The bottom line is that if you hold to the mid or post I don't think it is necessarily going to send you to hell and it is more divisive in the manner and motive it is taught in.
Baptism was used as a vice in the Corinthian church, just as in the days of Noah had eating and drinking, etc. Nothing wrong with that until you take it to the extreme. So whereas, in the mere positions of the rapture is not necessarily wrong or not necessarily divisive, but, most of the time it is made divisive. If one can prove by scripture then it is divisive within the belief itself then that is a different story.
Christians need to properly discuss the word instead of thinking everybody that has a different position is automatically an evil person.
We need to be held accountable to the word when contending the faith. At the same time we don't need to further strife, but, we do need to reason and exhort each other in the faith and the word. Once again I am sorry I made the statement that was not clear in the context of what I was saying. It was an oversight and if I would have meant it as a plain statement in its meaning standing alone it definitely would have contradicted my whole belief and context of what I was saying.
Any opposing opinion should be welcomed as long as it is sound by scripture and that human reasoning is in harmony with the scripture. Most doctrines are right in their own context and line of thinking. This is why proper hermeneutics is important. God Bless! Jerry Kelso
secret rapture
hi Michael, i find this divide in christians about the rapture confusing because i taught as christians with the HOLY SPIRIT guiding us, we are supposed to be one mind and one body in the LORD JESUS CHRIST. i have heard pastors preaching and they seem, from what i can tell to be speaking sincerly from their hearts, preaching about a pre-trib rapture, and i find it hard to believe they are deluded. why is it looked upon as a secret rapture, if there is pre-trib rapture and people start vanishing all over the world, how does one think that will be a secret rapture? also 1.thessalonians 4:16 for the LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel and with trumpet of GOD. and the dead in CHRIST will rise first.
it says the LORD will descend from heaven, but it doesn't say HE will descend from heaven to the earth, does that make it a second coming?
1.thessalonians 5:9 for GOD did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our LORD JESUS CHRIST, does this piece of scripture not make a point for pre-trib rapture?
i myself am unsure of when the rapture will take place, i hear great cases for both ,pre-trib/post-trib.
also is there not a difference between tribulations and the great tribulation?
Re; secret rapture
I also have some of the same questions. Just about the only reason I have to disbelieve in pre-trib rapture is the fact that mainstream theology and Christianity accepts it. That scares me, because I have already found most of mainstream to be unBiblical one way or another. Most Christians just can't tie Scripture together too well and thus get weird conclusions, its weird. However, I do agree, both sides have GREAT arguments for each. Even mid-trib does, though that I know from what I have read in the Bible to be false.
Therefore, this is what I hold to: The rapture will come, not all will die, but all will be changed, and it will all be within a twinkling of an eye. It will happen and this is our hope and our comfort. Regardless of pre/mid/post-trib rapture, we will all face persecution. Jesus promised us this, and like every other promise, I hold Him to it and look forward to it. As for exactly when it will happen, I do not care, just like I do not care when Jesus will come back, just as long as He does. Please don't take this last statement wrong, I do desire His return and it is a constant hope, but I won't spend my time wondering if it will be in the next week or not. I don't care, I'm going to do what I am told until it does whether I must die first or not.
Bear this in mind, JESUS IS ALIVE AND OUR LIFE IS IN AND THROUGH HIM. This fact will never change or pass away. Let us honor and glorify Him by having a living faith and a living life and a living relationship with Him in and out of His Word and always move from faith to faith and glory to glory. In this, we honor Him and Him alone.
Re: secret rapture
You just stated that both sides have great arguments on their sides. That's apodictic, in my way of thinking. And I would add that NOT ONLY do they both have great arguments to support their position, but they can both quote scriptures to support their position till the proverbial cows come home!
Now of this I am clear: the Bible does not lie, and it does not contradict itself. At times when we think it may be contradicting itself, the glitch is in our flawed, fallible, infinite, human understanding, and not in the Word itself. "Let God be true and everyman a liar."
Agreed?
Amen.
Now if the Bible does not contradict itself, but men hold contradicting views on certain subjects, the thing I need to ask is this. Did God stutter? Did he mumble as a man would?
Nay, but every story in the Bible that I have read which reveals God's unchanging character indicates that when He speaks he does NOT mince words!! His word is clear and very explicit when ever He speaks. Sometimes it rolls as THUNDER!!! As we read the stories of God at work in the lives of men, and we see the ways and methods with which he deals with man, or has dealt with him throughout the ages, (The old testament is splendid for this!) we see that God was never one to play games! When He spoke that a certain thing would come to pass, brother you had better duck, because it's a' comin'! You can bank on it!
So back to the rapture. Did God mince words on this subject? No, seriously! Back up and think about it! That would be out of character for Him! I think from HIS point of view, as He looks down on the earth, He would say to us "I gave the truth on this subject very explicitly in my Word!!" "Why are you confused? I am not the author of confusion!"
So then the million dollar question: If God does not mince words, if He is clear and explicit in his word, NEVER EQUIVOCATING, then why oh WHY my brothers and sisters is there so much division and conflict of views among the body of Christ??????
Both sides swear to have the ultimate, apodictic truth, but logic dictates that two conflicting views can not be right!
In short, no matter how vehement the arguments, now matter how passionately we espouse them, somebody's got to be right, and someone's got to be wrong!
Flip a coin, anyone?
The quintessence of the matter is this: Why is there so much conflict and misunderstanding on that which God has spoken with crystal clarity? (as He always does.)
My main concern is how horrible this looks to those in the world who may be on the brink of coming to the Lord and repenting and being born again, but they may be looking in on this CIRCUS and thinking "I don't want anything to do with that! These people are nuts!!"
What else WOULD they think if they observe that we as Christians can't even reach any concord on our basic tenets of our faith?
If you ask me, it's a sad and pitiful state of affairs. Simply deplorable.
But I like your distilled obversations/ conclusions, Jesse! That is an excellent synthesis! Best I've heard, so far!
You've at least found the basic elements that we can indeed all agree on.
Re re: secret rapture
Yes, I know. It is very sad that we all disagree on virtually everything and can't walk together because of it. Virtually everywhere from murder, homosexuality, and things like polygamy to gifts of the Spirit, praying without ceasing, giving thanks for everything and even whether Jesus was ____, you fill in the blank, all are somehow up for debate within the Body of Christ. It is ridiculous! I am positive that God looks down at this and weeps harder than He has ever done. No two of us can walk together in agreement, and if so then not for long. It is horrible! This great falling away is hard to look at. I feel many times that I really don't want anything to do with any of the churches today. What is really scary is that every one of us are either so confident or so stubborn that we are determined to hold to our doctrine to the grave, even if it means being wrong and missing out on everything.
The biggest thing that sorrows me, as you said, is that the world denies the existence of Christ and of a god period just by looking at the Church. Jesus prayed saying, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." (my emphasis) The same has become true of the opposite. If Jesus does not come back soon I'm afraid He may not have too many sticking with Him except for a handful on top of those that have already endured to the end. At least, that is, not in America.
By the way, please refer to this post...
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/baptist-pastor-tased-and-beaten-by-police-in-arizona-amerika-12-stitches-in-the-head#comment-4466
If we believe in pre-trib, because we want out before the tribulation then we are wrong, whether the Bible supports pre-trib or not.
I agree, pre-trib is a deception
I have written about this myself on my blog. I believe that pre-trib is a deception of satan. I go into a few details of why it is IMPOSSIBLE on my blog.
I read where another lady said that if you read your bible as much as you should, you cannot be deceived into believing in a SECRET rapture. There is nothing secret about it in scriptures. Yashua EXPLICITLY spoke against it, and so did Paul the apostle.
Glad to see that a *few* are fighting for truth.
Hello Michael, I have
Hello Michael, I have questions on what is and when(timing) of Marriage supper of lamb. I know we learn from one another through the bible.Hope you CF people will contribute to this
God bless you
Ev. Steve
Jesus is Love
Jesus is God
By his stripes we were healed
Rapture + Secret Rapture
Why do we spend so much time studying,questioning such things?!
We should be in a place with God, and our walk with him that "WE" wont be left behind.
We should be able to decern the seasons, as Jesus said.
I have been saved since 1968, and have heard everyone from Henery Kissenger, to Pope John Paul as being the Anti Christ. I was taught way back then , that we (the generation of that time, were to be the generation to see the return of Christ). Now the Generation of this time are supposed to be the generation that will witness his return. The point being , That no one knows the time of his return, and wont until he does return, SOOOO BE READY!
All of this Theology came about because of the teaching on the establishing of Israel as a Nation in 1948. Where has this teaching come from? Who was the author of it? How much of what YOU personally believe, has its roots in the Theology of the Fig Tree? If you take 1948 out of the equation how much of what you beleive will still stand?
I believe that the whole teaching of the Fig Tree, and 1948 are both false teachings.
(Right out of the PIT)
Rapture theology and Zionism.
There are many links between what we are taught by many pastors within the evangelical movement and the political goals of zionism.
As stated in Michaels article, there potentially lethal implications for those who are misled into believing this unsafe doctrine.
I asked my pastor about end time events many years ago and his reply to me was "Dont worry about it, just concentrate on following Jesus".
I believe that this is a wise comment.
No-one knows when the "Day of the Lord" will be but we should always be ready with our lamps filled with oil.
God bless,
Pete
The Indentity of He Who Now Letteth/That Wicked
In a pre-tribulation model, "...he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way...", is usually identified to be the Church, or the Holy Spirit's influence through the Church. But who is he, and what does it mean that he shall be "taken out of the way" - in a post-tribulation model?
And where it says, "...then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming," does this imply that "that Wicked" is an individual who shall still be alive physically at the time of Christ's coming? If so, that would seem to preclude any first-century identity for "that Wicked" (such as Nero).
How to Test Whether Your Doctrine is Gospel or an 'Americanism'
I often say that one way in which we can test our doctrine - to know whether it is true Gospel, or an Americanism - is to put it through the "persecuted Church test". That is, to ask ourselves, "What would believers in a persecuted country think of this doctrine?"
For example: prosperity. Any statement about prosperity, probably isn't the Gospel - unless it can apply equally to both a tortured, imprisoned Pastor on death-row in China, and to one of your fellow-televangelists in the United States. Or at least, such a statement may need some qualification (especially if it's being broadcast around the world to audiences who are facing varying degrees of persecution).
And vice versa. Perhaps Pastors in the persecuted house-church movement in China could similarly guard against any extremes in their thinking, through testing how any of their statements might apply in a more peaceful, prosperous environment.
The Church can thrive during persecution and prosperity alike. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me". Extremes in doctrine can sometimes occur in persecuted countries, but unfortunately, we in developed countries are not immune from the opposite extreme, the tendency to dilute the Gospel's message.
It was good to read a post that brought Gospel doctrine and values into focus again.
Secret rapture?
You are one of the few that have hit the nail on the head! People need to stop fearing "the left behind" syndrome. For those that would disagree, there can only be ONE last trump. Many try to say there is a Levitical trump, and endeavor to make the Bible fit their traditional dispensational beliefs, but they are not scriptural. The introduction of this heresy was through the Scofield Bible in footnotes. Some of his staff resigned rather than go along with Scofields desires. In visiting countries outside North America, many do not have this belief. Something else that goes along with that last trump is the ending of time. This should be considered to establish further estachological views in regards to other things also introduced during the reformation by renagade Jusuits. I don't wish to be secific here, as it is another subject that I will comment on in the appropriate area.
Good elucidation Michael! I
Good elucidation Michael! I will check the scriptures to determine TRUE timing. Your explanations are biblical based and that is good because whatever Scripture says is true.
Michael sounds to me an Apostle!
Anyway I'm believing nothing on timing of rapture so as to examine these two concepts independently
God bless you!
Jesus is Love
Jesus is God
By his stripes we were healed
Secret Rapture?
Michael,
You and I are pretty much on the same page as to the rapture of the Church. As a new believer, some 34 years ago, I was taught that the dispensational veiw was what the Bible taught. When I did my own study on it and really looked at what the Bible said, rather than what Hal Lindsey said, I could not find any passage that remotely taught a secret rapture before the great tribulation. I have asked many people over the years to show me just one passage that taught this, no one has yet. I have been told, many times, that they just believe it because they hope that is what will happen. I don't want to write war and peace, but I find it sad that many hang on to this view when it is clearly not scriptural.
in His love,
Darryl
Yes but
I agree that there will not be a "secret rapture", but I have to disagree about the trumpets. Paul was writting twenty to fourty years prior to John's vision in Revalations. To equate the two trumpets as the same seems a bit of a stretch. Check out my blog entry "The Timing of the Rapture" for more on my take.
will there be a secret rapture of the church
hi , Michael , thank you for this article , which is truly based on the Word of God . many of our brothers and sisters are in for a rude awakening if they live to see the antichrist rule . the fact that many are willing to believe that somehow they will escape through "righteous living" tells us that something is rotten in today's "churchianity" . first of all , truly righteous people , who know who enabled them to gain this righteousness , consider themselves honored by suffering for Christ's sake .
this attitude clearly indicates , on the other hand , how selfish most us have become : the Lord Jesus Himself said that the greatest commandment was to love our God with all our might and heart ; but i am afraid many are "lovers of themselves" instead , taking all steps they deem necessary to avoid suffering and pain and still manage to get the supreme "candy" : go to heaven and have fun , flying around with the angels! let us remember the words of the Lord Himself :"in this world , you will have tribulation , but take heart , for I have overcome the world " . this is what the Lord expects of us , to stand on His Word and to rely on His strength to have His commandments come to life in our daily lives , no matter what situation we may find ourselves in .