Are Messianic Jews Messing with the Message of Salvation?

I love Jewish people and some of my believing friends are of Jewish extraction. How can a righteous person hate the race of people from which the Messiah came? 

And yet, like God, I can't agree with everything that Jewish people say or teach. And this is especially true concerning what some Jews teach about salvation.

We know of course that many Jews have historically rejected the Messiah – Jesus Christ. By the way, "Christ" is not a surname – its a greek word that translates the essentially Hebrew word "Mashiach" – Messiah. And yes, I know that even the word "Jesus" is essentially based on the Greek form of the name of the Lord. And some people just LOVE to argue about names. Its interesting though that the demons don't. You can cast out demons in the name of "Jesus". Never once did a demon tell me that he won't come out because I didn't use the name "Yeshua" (the Hebrew and original form of the name of our Savior).

In any case, it is not only the Jews that reject Jesus that are dangerous. False teachers are dangerous no matter what their ethnic origin is. And not least among these are the so-called Messianic Jews who emphasize the Keeping of Law as a means of salvation.

Those who read this site will surely realize that I do not promote some kind of message telling the unholy and lawless that they have nothing to fear if they "believe in Jesus". In fact, if we truly believe in Jesus, we will flee sin and cling to God. Jesus warned his own disciples about th deadliness of sin and told them that they should fear the Father, who has power to cast body and soul into HELL (see Matthew 10).

However there is an equal and opposite extreme to antinomianism (the teaching that sin won't lead to spiritual death for the believer). This error is legalism. And one of the most potent forms of legalism the devil has out there today is the Jewish form. Among those who call themselves "Messianic Jews" are those who believe that you must "keep the Torah" to be saved. Of course, no one can "keep the Torah" because for a start there is no longer any temple to which to bring your animal sacrifices. So, Torah teachers must pick and choose the commandments they consider essential to salvation. They will teach that you must observe a Saturday Sabbath, or that you must celebrate certain Jewish feasts mentioned in the Bible, or that you should wear certain kinds of clothes, eat certain kinds of foods or light certain kinds of candles. A lot of their teachings appeal to Gentiles who are looking for "something more" in the form of Jewish traditions and ceremonies which carry a certain mystique about them and usually not a few interesting anecdotal stories of interest.

These teachers of the Law are quite at odds with the apostle Paul on what constitutes the essential duties of the Christian believer. For Paul, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision was anything, but "faith working through love". True faith in God has now been detached from Jewish cultural practices and is now wholly centred on the person of the resurrected Son of God – Jesus Christ. And what God wants from us is the fruit of LOVE – which expresses itself mostly in terms of being helpful to others for their temporal and eternal needs.

The Book of Galatians has some very powerful things to say about this whole issue of keeping various parts of the Torah in order to be like "really saved".

Paul, who was himself a very learned Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, and knew the law way better than the Judaizers he had to deal with, wrote this letter to Christians who whose faith had been DESTROYED by people who came in after Paul had left. These people would insinuate that Paul wasn't all that great and the Galatians really needed THEM and what they were teaching in order to be saved.

They were teaching the believers that they needed to observe certain Jewish customs and laws – especially male circumcision as a sign that they were truly the people of God.

Today there are also those who disparage Paul and his teachings. They don't like Paul and they think that he wasn't Jewish enough. The truth is that Paul turned 180 degrees away from all the legalistic Jewish religion when he turned to Christ Jesus. This is why he was so hated by the Jews. Paul never advocated disregarding the moral law of God – in fact he taught that by the Spirit of God we must put to death the deeds of the flesh. The law of love Paul upheld. However, Paul was very clear about the difference between Judaism and being "in Christ". He never tried to make the Gentiles into Jews. He never taught that Jewish believers are first class and Gentile believers are second class. In fact, he taught that the middle wall of division between Jew and Gentile had been abolished in Christ.

Paul made some very startling statements which should serve as a warning to anyone who wants to bring believers under the yoke of the Torah – the Law of Moses. If anyone wants to dismiss Paul as being an authority on matters of faith, they would also have to dismiss the apostle Peter. Because Peter wrote as follows:


"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.  He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction". 2 Peter 3:15,16

Peter is saying that Paul is a "dear brother" writing with wisdom which God gave him. Peter here declares that Paul's writings are Scriptures! So if you want to write off Paul, you will need to write off Peter as well. And then who will you be left with, as an authority on true faith in the Messiah? Probably some fellow who has neither seen the Lord, nor known Him personally – but rather prides himself on his personal research and his Jewish ancestry according to the flesh. Someone who probably resembles a lot the Judaizers who were destroying the faith of the Galatians through their urging them back into a Jewish lawkeeping.


Paul taught the following:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” (Galatians 3:10)

He writes to those who seek to be justified by keeping Jewish laws:

"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

No stronger warning concerning Judaistic teaching could be given than Paul has given here.

In another place Paul says concerning Jesus:

"having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. "

(Colossians 2:14)

These Scriptures make it very clear that all the legal requirements of the Law of Moses are finished for us. They are nailed to the cross. This would include all the ceremonial and civil laws of the Israelites – but not the moral law of God.

Are Jewish Believers a Special Elite Class?

Some Jewish believers in Jesus are really humble, wise and helpful people. Others seem to pride themselves on their Jewishness, as if being somehow children of Abraham according to the flesh makes them just that little bit better than everyone else.

Naturally, the belief that you are better than other races promotes division. On this issue, Paul said:


Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh — who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands — that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He  came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Gentiles and Israelites are one in Christ, when they are truly in Christ. It clearly teaches here that Jesus abolished in his flesh the law of commandments contained in ordinances – all those Jewish customs from the Torah and elsewhere – so as to create one new man from the two. This means that God has created a new spiritual race of people from Jews and non-Jews alike. Those who are in Christ are not separated by requirements to observe certain Jewish ordinances. Once you start trying to re-introduce these things and teach others to do so, you are working against the purpose of God. If you want to observe Jewish customs because you like them, fine. But when you imply that doing this makes you more spiritual, more observant, more pleasing to God, that is when you have begun to be an enemy of the gospel and the purposes of God.

The problem is that once you add all kinds of laws as requirements for salvation, things which God no longer requires, you confuse the issue and people get their eyes OFF Christ and onto certain laws which they must audit themselves against regularly. This is bondage and it is not something the Spirit of God leads people into.

Once a person gets into this condition, they have become estranged from Christ and they are truly into a kind of works-based religion. Such religion cannot save. And so those who promote such religion are doing immense damage. Make sure you are not taken in.

Was Paul Under the Law?

For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

(1 Corinthians 9:19-21)


If you want to win Jews to Christ, you can behave as if you are under the Law of Moses in order to win them over. You can celebrate Feasts and light menorahs all you want. But you should never ACTUALLY be under the law. Paul wasn't. He explicitly says so here. But he made himself fit in with some of their customs at times in order to try to win them. It didn't always work. Paul was actually arrested at the temple in Jerusalem in the very act of trying to fit in with the Jews (see Acts 21).

Paul said he was under the Law of Christ. This means that Paul followed the teachings of Jesus. Some people have the idea that not being under the law means being free to sin as much as they please (hopefully not too much). Paul is talking about the ordinances of the Law of Moses. He is not talking about being immoral or dishonest. If you REALLY follow the Holy Spirit, He will NEVER lead you to be sexually immoral or dishonest. The Holy Spirit will always lead you deeper into the Holy presence of God, where sin cannot stand.

Being Under the Law of Moses means being Under the Curse

Galatians 3:10 says: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”"

We need to rely on the righteousness of Christ which is given as a gift to those with faith. We are cursed if we are trusting our Lawkeeping efforts. To remain in Christ, He ought to be the centre of our affections and we ought to seek to please Him in all ways – but to look to a set of rules in a self-imposed effort to please God is not the way to be a real Christian.

Once you set yourself to achieve righteousness through lawkeeping, you will fail, and you will be UNDER A CURSE. Things will go bad for you, and you will not be accepted by God at the end, unless you repent and put your trust in Christ for righteousness.










What do YOU think?


About Michael Fackerell

The Christian faith is about Jesus. He came to save the lost. About Jesus Christ, Bible teaching, Testimonies, Salvation, Prayer, Faith, Networking.


  1. The Army of I AM says:

    Please let me know

    • Timothy Luke says:

      A person is free to edit their own texts. As a courtesy, please note at the end of the amended note that it has been edited by you and the date you edited it – this way it avoids confusion when someone comes back to it later and it seems altered. Also, there is no need to say what the edits were, per se.

  2. Captainmathew says:

    Yes, very true what Joseph (Hollyroller_11) narrated which is to come true as prophesied by Prophet Zechariah (in Chapter 12, Vs 10 & 11).

  3. shalom aleichem says:

    I am filled with great sadness to read this post. I do not know who are the Messianic Jews you have met, but in the Messianic Jewish community I have grown up in, it is very different than what you have described. We are a community of both Jew and Gentile Messianics. We have accepted Y-shua, J-sus, as our personal Savior. No one is forced or told that they can only have salvation by keeping kosher, going to service on Saturdays, lighting candles, practicing the Biblical festivals, ect. If someone who claims to be Messianic is telling you that you must do these things to be saved and they are saying that they are “better” or “higher in class”, I would agree in that they are not being lead by the Holy Spirit. We serve a humble G-d whose love is equally distributed to all people and His salvation is for all.

    Unfortunately, I soon will be going to a meeting and I cannot write as much as I would like to, but there are some things that I want to share in summary.
    Paul was in fact a Messianic Jew. He was a Jew who loved Y-shua and he did not hide that. And he was not saying that the Law was to disappear. In fact, Paul spoke very boldly of how it is very much part of a Believer’s life.
    “..Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.” Romans 3:30-31
    Y-shua Himself is the Living Torah. Would He abolish Himself? Would He command something and then not let it be fulfilled? Y-shua Himself is the fulfillment of the Torah. By living our lives to follow
    Y-shua we are living Torah. We are under His authority.
    I remember when I ran into an old teacher of mine from a Christian highschool I had attended. He saw me wearing a Star of David necklace and he said, “You went to a Chirstian school, but you wear a Star of David. How odd.” His statement could not have been any further from the truth. This teacher claimed to be a Christian, but he had no concept of the fact that the G-d he served is a Jewish
    M-ssiah. Our L-rd and Savior did not say we had to become Jews to be saved, but He did ask us to be like Him and He is, with not doubt, our Jewish M-ssiah.

    The Biblical feasts are often called “Jewish Festivals”, but they are for all people to celebrate as they are the shadow of what is to come.
    What kind of bride is our L-rd returning for? A pagan one? Or one that resembles Him? Isn’t the bride the reflection of her groom?
    You do not have to be Jewish to be saved. And what does “to be saved” mean? Eternal life starts now, in how we live our lives for the Kingdom of G-d. Follow Y-shua, the Living Torah, and He will lead you on His path of Eternal Life.

    • Timothy Luke says:

      Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts on this topic.  Personally, I have kept many of the 'Jewish' aspects of holy days and meats, etc.  I think there is great value in observing them… for frankly, they came from the heart of God as revealed to Moses.  The pagan days of Christianity have not.

      However, even in the Jewish traditions, I suspect there is much paganism from their sojourn in Babylonian captivity, when the have there symbols that are not written in the Bible.  My 2 cents… FOR FREE! 

    • Holyroller_11 says:

      Well truthfully Jesus was before Abraham,so really doesn’t matter as long as we know Jesus is Lord to all who serve and trust him,As far a meat and such,It’s not what goes in the belly that matters,but what comes out of the mouth and heart.God bless us everyone

    • Shalom, This is a very interesting paradox of sorts.
      The Jews were given the law forever and culturally they are jews. The gentiles were never under the law at all. The Jews proselyted the gentiles in the old testament until Peter got the vision of the clean and unclean. The new covenant was prophesied to the Jew and of course the gentiles are grafted in. Abraham was before the Jewish nation and he was a gentile and in the Davidic line there are gentiles. These truths agree with Paul that in the church today there are no jews or gentiles in the body because we are on the same level as a part of the family of God.
      The abolishment of the Mosaic Law has and is a rift between the Jew and Gentile believers. It happened in the early church and is happening now. So the question is how does one reconcile the scriptures about abolishment of the law when the Jews culturally was built all around the law and they have it forever.
      Being that there is a slight difference that a jewish man and a jewish woman keeps the law; because of being a different gender and what it encompasses; could there not be a difference for the jew and gentile where the law can still be lived by the jew though, it has been abolished?
      I will stop here for now and await for an answer. This is an important matter that needs to be reconciled to bring unity to the body of Christ for there are plenty of Jews trying to make gentile converts and vice versa and make out like it is scriptural to do this when it isn’t. God bless and shalom! Jerry Kelso

      • Holyroller_11 says:

        Until the Jew.accepts Jesus as Lord,and Son of God,there will always be dividion, Only when they accept antichrist and the new temple built,and antichrist reveals himself in the temple,will the Jew know,what crimes they have done to the Son of God,the Jews which have already been converted already know grace

        • Holyroller_11 says:

          today Israel has big problems,as the arabs continue to unit and move toward taking 1st Jerusalem,then Israel,to drive them into the sea, meaning the antichrist and his treaty is very near, much destruction coming their way ,so pray for them,they need help. a temple is on its way fast,but only the beginning of sorrows

        • Holy Roller, It is true that Israel as a nation will not come back to God until, they have been through Jacob’s trouble; Daniel 12:1 and it is true that there is a remnant of grace today of Jewish believers; Romans 11:5.
          There has been a rift between Jewish thought and Gentile thought about the abolishment of the Mosaic Law. I think it has been over thought and muddied up by semantics when it can be brought in better by the proper hermeneutics and context and history of the scriptures.
          The Gentile believers say the Mosaic Law was abolished to which the new testament actually uses the term.
          The Jewish believers get offended and say this is not true because Romans 3 says we establish the law.
          Can both be write? Yes and no, but, only in understanding the correct terms and meanings of those terms.
          1. The jews have the law forever and the feast were forever. Read the Torah, ie. Exodus 12:14. Exodus 19:5-6. Feast forever is a plain statement for a perpetual commandment. Israel being a kingdom nation over the earth has to be understood from the overall perspective of the scriptures which, is an eternal covenant but, is conditioned by obedience.
          You can’t separate the law and the jew culturally.
          2. The Mosaic Law was also temporary. This has to mean in its form according to the Mosaic Ethic. Hebrews 8:6-13.
          Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 both state that the ordinances were abolished and nailed to the cross and taken out of the way. Hebrews 9:19 says; the meats and drinks, diver washings (baptisms) and carnal ordinances (priestly works and divine service etc.) were imposed on them till the reformation, which was the cross; not his earthly ministry.
          Timothy said the law is for the disobedient who need to be restrained. 1Timothy 1:9.
          Some believe the moral laws were not done away with. The truth is that Moral laws are in each age. But, since the mechanics of the covenants may change the proper way to say it is that the moral law according to the Mosaic Ethic was done away with.
          Under the Mosaic Law the jews were under a blessing and cursing system with
          specific commandments and judgements. We are not under this system and the curse
          of the law is gone. This does not mean that you cannot incur judgement etc. it is in a
          different way. Ie; If you committed adultery under the Mosaic law you were stoned.
          Obviously, this is not a standard practice today, even under our civil law. You might
          get stoned by certain individuals in other ways but, if they did stone you literally, they
          would get in trouble according to our civil laws.
          3. The whole law in these respects were abolished according to the Mosaic Ethic. Jews tend to believe that it was the self righteous works only because of the Pharisees behavior in Jesus day. Matthew 23, Jesus called them hypocrites. Some
          things they taught were right even though they included some of their own rules which,
          is know as the commandments of men, Matthew 15:9. But, in Matthew 6 they were
          giving alms which was according to the law but, they did it just as a show in front of
          men which, was a wrong motive. Self righteous works were sin of which Christ came to die for but, not as much a mechanic of the covenant that needed to be changed to have a more direct way of access to God.
          With every new way that God dealt with man we attained more knowledge called gradual revelation. This is why the covenant are different in many ways. Ie; Cain killed Abel but, there was no specific written law for murder. It didn’t mean murder wasn’t wrong and that people wouldn’t be gunning for him but, there was no specific punishment such as the Mosaic Law which you would have been stoned for. The New Covenant was built on better promises and gives us greater access to God. It doesn’t mean that we are necessarily super christians without possibility of committing sin.
          Romans 7 says the Law was Holy and Good. It was God’s best he gave to Israel. But, it was filled with some weaknesses that we are supposed to learn from 1st Corinthians 10; and because of types and shadows and the reality hadn’t come yet, which was, Jesus Christ. And even when Jesus came they were under the Old Covenant but, they rejected him and the apostles didn’t get a clearer picture of Christ fulfilling the law and bringing in the New Covenant and the abolishment of the law until after Christ Died. This is why he had to expound the Law of Moses and the Psalms concerning him. Luke 24:44
          So the Mosaic Law was Holy and Good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made the Jews live unto the frailty of man. Romans 7. This law of sin and death was done away with by the Law of the Spirit. Romans 8. This is another reason that the law was abolished, It doesn’t mean it wasn’t good or useful etc. It does mean that the commandment could give no power to the jew to attain to the commandment in itself. And because they didn’t have the Holy Spirit abiding in them constantly without measure they tended to live more in their own strength than God’s strength. This is evident in their history of captivities and even now the veil that is over their eyes in the reading of the old testament. 2 Corinthians 3:14.
          The Messianic Jews are under the New Covenant just as Gentile believers are for we are one body which, is the body of Christ and he has broken down the middle wall of partition so we are on the same level coming to Christ and this is why there is no Jew or Gentile in the body even though, the body is made up of Jew and Gentile people. Ephesians 2:14-16.
          Conclusion, is that the jewish believer have the law in their hearts and minds according to the reality of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ; and so do we as gentile believers.
          The feasts are forever and the gentile believers can participate if they like in these feasts.
          The jews can still do bar mitzphahs and other things that are cultural. The gentile believers can be gentiles in their way of life.
          One thing that both parties have to careful of is the old way of thinking according to the old way of life that can make it harder to serve God and not live as free unto God as we could. The new covenant is built on better promises and gives us greater access to God because the mechanics of the covenant have changed. There was no power in a carnal commandment especially of the ordinances. After all, there is no temple and no way to even do sacrifices for the jews. Messianic Jews know the ultimate sacrifice and so do gentile believers. And there is power in the endless life, the risen Lord. Hebrews 7. Praise God for that.
          So Jews have the Law forever in their hearts and culturally and they do not do things to attain unto salvation. Jesus is the only way and his shed blood.
          The gentiles never had the law so culturally we don’t have to live like they do.
          But, technically we establish the law because it is written in our hearts. Romans 3:31
          Just as there was grace in the age of law, there is law in the age of grace called love of a risen Lord. John 3:16. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Timothy Luke says:

            When I consider the history of Israel and Judah, and how large the nation of Israel was compared to the nation of Judah in the Old Testament.  When one considers the end time prophesies of the sons of Jacob in Gensis 49, and that each tribe would be existing in the end times. When we believe that God did not contradict Himself in this, we will believe the sons of Jacob are included in the end-time family of nations we now observe.

            Here is the blessing upon Joseph in Genesis 49:22-26

            "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:  The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:  But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)  Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:  The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

            America and Britain have been targets of national envy, and have come through WWI and WWII victoriously – with some miraculous intervention at Midway and Dunkirk and other battlefields.


            A further description of these two tribes is in the previous chapter of Genesis 48:17-20 and Jacob lays his hands on the two boys….


            "And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

            And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.  And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

            There was prophesied to be a great nation from Manaseh, and a company of nations thru Ephraim. The British people are a company with the British commonwealth nations of Canada and Australia, and New Zealand being of the same geneological heritage. Having had dominion in South Africa and India and a number of other colonies of lesser size in the past century.  America , I believe, became that great nation, so prophesied.

            In this understanding, one also finds reason for the steadfast support by these two peoples for the land of Israel, which are the Jews, stemming from Judah predominantly, with Levi still attached as in days of old.

            So, when it comes to the fulfilment of the "time of Jacob's Trouble" we see it precedes the establishing of the Kingdom of God on earth.

            Jer 30:7-9  "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

            My understanding on that is that the demise of America, Britain, the nation of Israeland the nations of the other tribes of Israel today, which may include the nations of northwest Europe, occurs, then the coming of the Lord is imminent.

            Just sharing that, because historically and prophetically, it seems quite plausible and it makes sense out of what we see today. Plus, why would not the greatest nations on earth be mentioned in endtime prophesy?

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I am going to tell you,but many may not believe, 1st there will be 4 major kingdoms,which are now in developement, China(east),Russia and allies(north) Egypt,and the brotherhood,allies (south) and USA,and E.U including Rome, is (west),and the most powerful(west) now with common sense and scripture,this is whats going on NOW. Israel only trust USA,no other country could or would assure divide Jerusalem,for peace,and Israel accept, 2nd and in the agreement will soon be including ,the rebuilding of the third temple,can be up in 3 months, (antichrist will control USA and Europe,and I BELIEVE DOES NOW,to a point, antichrist will be the protecter of Israel for a season,or pretend ,to get the tready. now look at this,this is deep, now the Jews want that temple bad enough to sacrifice half of Jerusalem to get it, then no one ,not even antichrist can make an offering,(unless he has a trace of levi bloodline) 3rd there are leaders in power Now,that possibly could be traced to the bloodline of Moses or Arron or his children. that have the power to offer a sacrifice and a tready ,now call me crazy

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            America and Britain are not Israelites,If you check out the 3 sons and follow them through time you will see,they are not seeds of Joseph, but America is a new nation compared to middle East,but the awsome power (nukes and such)can;t be over looked,someone will control it,plus the armies of Russia,china and persia will be held back for 3.5 years of trib, it will take muscle to do that,who holds them back now?

          • Timothy Luke says:

            How far back in time do you wish to follow them? How far back have you personally followed them?

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            Few years ago I made charts,from Adam til joseph and 2 sons,actually I can tell you the year of the flood.and the 3 sons of noa,I wanted to know where all 3 went and what people became of them. just as some of the kinship of Moses,thats why I say,antichrist has a touch of dna of moses or arron. he will need that for the temple sacrifice,and some went to rome,there are somethings I will not discuss in public,but I have many years of study,my own not anyone elses.

          • Timothy Luke says:

            Joe, in your research, where do you see this company of nations, and the great nation? Or do believe this promise for the last days is not going to be fulfilled, or was forfeited by Israel?

            Gen 49:1  And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

            PS – I am not in a position to argue this out in detail, just seeking your position on it.

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            when the Israelites were pulled into their own land and made 1 nation in 1948,then later captured Jerusalem in 1967,regained the promised land which God gave in the time of Moses.Jews would have stayed in Germany where they were properous,then came Hitler,fulfilling prophesy,bringing them back from the 4 corners of the world, I wish USA was not connected in antichrist,but it is,and soon ,very soon,it will be seen more clear. we and EU are the revised roman impire, (the wideworld church of God,)started by armstrong is a cult,but they claim the older son of Joseph are part of british people but he is wrong,be careful of Armstrong,I had run in with that group years ago to the point I sent them letters,proveing them wrong,and they refuse to discuss or change their doctrine,

          • Holyroller 11, Barack Obama said he was going to do what Bush and Carter couldn’t do with their peace initiatives. This could only mean putting the last cog in the wheel which, almost seems to not only put the USA in the role of the prophetic peace treaty, but, also seems to point to Obama as potentially being the AntiChrist. I am not saying he is, but, one could draw conclusions from the fact that Kissinger said he was the one to lead us into the New World Order. Also, the issue of where he was really born even, though Daniel seems to allude to the fact of him being Syrian, born which is a possibility. Also, with the fact of his socialistic tendencies and the ridiculous things he has done since he has been President according to his actions.
            Soros is definitely a player of some kind, Kerry, the Clintons, Both Bushes, and many more are players in this idea of a New World Order, especially, President Carter who is a member of the Humanist Agenda which follows the Humanist Manifesto. After all, who wants wars and poverty, etc. when it still leads to Eliteism and socialism and is absent of freedom under God and free enterprise. God bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Holy Roller, Not that it makes or break anything, but, the Antichrist being a jew doesn’t necessarily hold true. It all depends on how he goes about with the temple sacrifice.
            Antioch Epiphanes was not jewish and he still desolated the temple and the bible calls it the Abomination of Desolation as in Daniel. Matthew 24. It takes 42 months to build the temple itself. If this is true and it is built in the first half of the tribulation then there won’t be many sacrificing in the temple before AntiChrist desolates it.
            He desolates it in the middle of the tribulation either way.
            At this time he is trying to gain all of Jerusalem but, cannot gain but part of it.
            Also he has trouble from the tiding of the East and the North. The East is the orient countries like China, etc. The North are like Russia, etc.
            Antichrist will have enough control of Russia and Turkey (one of these will be the King of the North from the book of Daniel); and he will start his descent south and overcome Egypt (King of the South) Libya, etc. and swoop over to Jerusalem at the end of the tribulation.
            The tidings of the East will not want to be a part of the Antichrist kingdom until, towards the end when the unclean spirits will convince them to join the AntiChrist, Revelation 16. They will eventually connect at the Battle of Armageddon where Christ will smite all of them with the brightness of his coming.
            The British-Israelism was popularized by Herbert Armstrong and even though its changed slightly today they, still believe it.
            It is true that the nation of Israel was scattered into the nations but, Ezekiel 37 deals with the dry bones and the regathering which, in much part has begun to some extent.
            British-Israelism deals with the 10 tribes being lost. This is not completely true even though, it’s easy to assume. But, in the tribulation Elijah is said by many Jews that as one of the 2 witnesses, his job to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers includes helping them to know what tribe they belong to.
            And this is why the two stick theory would be wrong when it tries to include the church going through the tribulation.
            America will play a part in the new world order. Henry Kissinger said, Barack Obama was the one to lead the United States into the NWO. In the Bush administration they were already talking about the whole western americas being united as one conglomerate.
            Could Obama be the Antichrist? He could be but, that is another story. The fact is, he is leading us to it and that is from the powers to be, known as the bilder bergers, and many of those in the council of foreign relation, and the trilateral commission.
            This year is a pivotal year so, have faith and trust in
            God, don’t be afraid, but, be on your toes and keep your eyes on the goal. Christ is coming back soon! Amen! and Amen! My spiritual dna is throught the adoption of Jesus our Captain of our salvation! God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            Jerry,true it is possible,but Jews have longed for the temple for 2000 years,they will be extremely careful,they are even dnaing the red hepher cow.and being most if not all of the temple parts including the robes and stones are already done just waiting assembly,I was told 3 months would erect enough of the temple to start the sacrifices,plus it can be built beside the dome,recent measurements say the dome is in the outer court,which in rev says will be trodden down by the gentiles 42 months,plus as far as conversation,kenya is near areas where Moses people have been,I leave it there , I would like to add,according to Daniel,antichrist will not follow the ways of his fathers,indicating a Jewish background or bloodline,also 1 of the generals of Alexander,likely through old Roman Empire,again,pointing to the Moses and family bloodline,if you trace the family tree. but regardless,as long as we watch til he comes,I plan on a big dinner party in heaven while everything on earth is coming unglued.see you there.

          • Holyroller, Brother, I definitely don’t disagree with you about the possibility of him being of jewish descent. I was just saying that he didn’t have to be of jewish descent to desolate the temple if the setting was like Antioch Epiphanes.
            It is true that the scripture in Daniel seems to allude to him being a jew. After all Hitler was a jew and he killed the jew for various reasons.
            The Antichrist does allow the sacrifices because he has a 7 year peace treaty that he breaks in the middle of those 7 years. I don’t believe it says he initiates it himself as a high priest. There is no real proof that he will have to be a jew to desolate the temple, even though it could be a possibility. One thing the scriptures does seem to allude to and is problematic is that he will be of Jewish descent. If one understands the secret societies and understand there are jews in this category such as Henry Kissinger, who said Barack Obama was the one to lead us into the new world order you can see how easy it is for the AntiChrist to be a Jew. After all the AntiChrist has to pull together the religious factions in that day that will be in opposition to each other.
            As you say we will be in Heaven and will enjoy the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Praise the Lord! God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            don””t forget George Soros,a jew who sold out the Jews and took their money,when they ran from hitler,also is pushing 1 world gov also I expect the antichrist himself will offer the sacrifice for 2 reasons,1st to show the world he is all power to do what no one else has done, 2nd the hateful and proudness of satan will want to show off to God

          • George Soros is a very evil and if I am not mistaken he is a part of the bilderbergers. The great confrontation between God and Satan has been going on since his revolt before this world was created. Thank God he is in control!. Amen and Amen!!!!! God bless Jerry Kelso

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I will say this (for thought only) soros could easily fit into false prophet status,the forerunner to set the stage for antichrist, just for conversation, like John the baptist,,people like soros,will use money and power to usher in the antichrist,but I have to say it is a pleasure to find 1 as you that have simular views,

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            Ok kinda off the beaten path. But I always thought the church would be raptured out before the tribulation. Now. Im kind of leaning toward 3-1/2 years into the tribulation? And once the rapture takes place. Will those who are left behind get another chance?

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            thats the whole point of 7 year tribulation,a second chance for Jews and anyone else,but the price is very high,the rapture begins at rev 4 verse 1.

          • lookingforhope2011, I believe the Bible teaches pre-trib. Holyroller is right about the 7 year tribulation which is the Daniel’s 70th week to purge the Jewish nation for they were promised to be the head of the nations in Isaiah 2:2-4. Luke 6:38 with Zechariah 14. Men shall give to Israel’s bosom when they are obedient to God in their covenant. Also, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 shows the rapture as meeting Christ in the air. Revelation 19:11-15 shows that Christ is coming in war attire with his saints from Heaven the planet. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 shows no indication of being ready to war at the battle of Armageddon.
            Most people who believe in mid trib use 2 Thessalonians 2. It was not Paul who wrote them the letter that the Day of the Lord was at hand because,2 things had to happen first. The falling away and the antichrist sitting in the temple. God bless! Jerry Kelso

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            That’s some pretty heavy stuff and much food for thought. With all the money troubles in europe right now, what do you think is on the horizon?

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            big changes in money and values of money,watch and see markets keep dropping ,and EU and pope calling for 1 world currency all this money problems are man made for a reason,not accident,when you distroy a country and then pay to rebuild it plus borrow it from another country for both the destruction and rebuilding, only to do what our enemies wanted to do but couldn’t,what do you call it.everyone going nuts over gold,but in rev.they throw it in the streets because of no value.people will kill you today for 10 dollars. money in your bank its not safe,fdic went broke few months back.expect runs on banks,weaking them more,hidden charges are everywhere. a farmer can’t hardly even sell eggs without gov permission or inspection.our homes came be pulled up on the net,no privcy, even the words I write now are monitered. the system must go through crash mode to be able to change it suddenly.its happening right under our nose,and as a lobster gets used to the changing water temp,we are also,and being cooked ,next thing happens we are well done. you don’t change systems that work,so you have to break it first I CAN ALMOST SMELL THE COOKING IN HEAVEN FOR THE MARRAGE SUPPER NOW. can’t hardly wait

          • lookingforhope: At first they said the Euro was going to replace our dollar. Now they are saying it is about 6 times worse than our dollar.
            Either Obama and the powers to be have to break the bank or let it break on their own. It’s pretty much up to what they decide is the best time. It won’t necessarily be as cut and dry like that. They have been conditioning us to different things like euthanasia, abortion, homesexuality, lesbianism population control in search for a perfect race even with cloning.
            I know that sounds like mumbo jumbo conspiracy theory but, it is true. Government creates problems that only they can fix. Look at Waco, and other national situations like wall street protest, etc and subconsciencely it dums us down and we get conditioned to martial law. It is a very subtle thing the way Satan works through the world system.
            Some may think I’m crazy but, they thought I was crazy when I said some republicans were’nt anymore our friend than some liberal democrats. This was in reference to Bush Sr.’s speech of a thousand points of lights that stated the term the New World Order. Now everybody is talking about the New World Order and you see some of the craziness that has been going on, on both sides of the parties. It doesn’t mean there are not good republicans and democrats or that some of them have never got the stupids before. But, it more prevalent and outlandish than ever before.
            This year is a pivotal year and will really begin the process of going toward iniating the New World Order if not in fact, it replacing our current government. It is a possiblility. I say this because our economy is already bankrupt and the plug could be pulled. If it does it may manifest itself in a subtle manner. This does not mean christians cannot pray and make a difference. The New World Order will happen but, will it be on our watch. It is up to us.
            Christians are to be faithful as we are required to do in all things in view of what is fixing to happen on this earth and the Lord coming back. I believe scriptures teach a pre-trib rapture, and I believe we should be expectant for Christ to rapture us out of this mess. At the same time, we still have to occupy til he comes and not have a mere escapism mentality just to avoid tribulation.
            We are going to have understand the scriptures more than ever so we are not ignorant of Satan’s devices and be in tact with a real relationship with the Lord to be of full effect for God for it is the anointing that breaks the yoke not, our personality of the power of persuasion that reaches people. Plus the fact in the tribulation it says that times will be so tough that even the elect run the risk of being deceived if Christ doesn’t come back.
            As far as money and etc. our lives have to live and may more in the future because of circumstances live more in
            God’s economy of faith and dependency on him. The question is if our economy was to bust are we going to be a third world economy or what kind of government will we have or go to? If that happens in what way will we buy groceries, work, schooling. What I am trying to say is if we lose our democracy and go to a form of socialism what will we do. It will affect every part of our lives in every way. And trust me it will be a different type of socialism than in countries like Sweden and Norway and other places that tend to do descent. There are pros and cons to every system, even capitalism. But, the point is about losing the important freedoms that made us a great nation, especially individual freedom with God and country, free enterprise and Godly principles, etc.
            In conclusion, the most harmful group of people is not the muslims even though they are a menace and many others, which I won’t take the time to mention, but, it the Humanist Agenda.
            People like President Carter and others are a part of this group. They seem harmless because, after all who wants wars, pestilences, poverty, etc. This is the other side of the coin to the New World Order. These people are being used as instruments to bring this to fruition without realizing. Well, some realize and others don’t but, the truth is that there will never be world peace until the King of peace comes to rule and reign, Even so come Lord Jesus! Look up for your redemption draweth nigh and all costs occupy til Jesus comes and like Keith Green said and lived; No Compromise!
            So get ready for some possibility of changes this year and look to God’s economy which will instill faith and commitment in a greater way more than ever. Lay aside the sin that so easily beset us if you have any. Make full proof of your ministry in whatever form of ministry that you have! God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Jerry + Joseph

            Do you think it is wise on the part of Christians, to invest in a system that has proven over and over, no matter who is in office, or what party rules, that it is totally corrupt, from top to bottom?
            A system that started with Christian principals, now has effectively taken the voice of the Christian out of the arena.
            A system where the moral principals have gone by the wayside, Homosexuals in the Supreme Court, Abortion, Greed.
            You have called it correctly “THE NEW WORLD ORDER” that means we are not a part of this system, we have no voice in it, and that is the way God wants it.
            We are “His” people, the sheep of “His” pasture. We place so much faith in the fact He will answer our prayers, but we still end up going to the voting booth.
            How about voting this year, by NOT voting for anyone running for positions in this New World Order, that, would be casting your vote for Gods order, and Authority.
            God is going to place who He wants in the positions anyway, what makes us think we are doing it.

            Dan 4:25
            That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, (TILL THOU KNOW THAT THE MOST HIGH RULETH IN THE KINGDOM OF MEN, AND GIVETH IT TO WHOMSOEVER HE WILL)

            Our position is not to put people in rule over us, but rather to pray for those that are in rule over us.

            Be Blessed

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I have no problem with that,changing the system now is lake emptying the sound with a 5 gallon bucket. be blessed,

          • lookingforhope2011 says:

            I guess no matter how it happens its been happening for awhile and little by little we become like the lobster in water Joe talked about. So keeping our eyes on Jerusalem and the temple preparations will let us know even further how close the end is. I wonder what Jesus is cooking us for supper 🙂

          • Jim, This is the system we have right now and the point to do everything is about being faithful to God and doing what is right and do our part to change things through spiritual warfare.
            The New World Order will happen eventually, and everything is pretty much in place in the form of the shadow government.
            God does put people into power and he had part in the kingdoms that oppressed Israel throughout their history. However, there are times that God holds off on judgement through intercession and other times not.
            Abraham sought God on behalf of Sodom and Gomorrah but, they didn’t meet the requirements
            God told Abraham which, was, if there were even 10 people faithful but, there wasn’t. In this respect, God doesn’t want to go through this process because of his love for his creation.
            On the other hand, God despises sins and hates the sinner in the context of the sinner that doesn’t want to serve him and is opposing his plan to make all things perfect and holy. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.
            There are good republicans and good democrats, though it is hard to tell. The ones that are hard to tell are the ones who get through which, are usually the GOP’s of each side.
            If one understands presidental executive orders that Clinton, Bush, and Obama’s have made it would be enough to make you cynical. This doesn’t mean we don’t do anything. This type of mindset to the extreme is not what God wants.
            This extreme is seen in the pre-trib rapture. I believe the Bible teaches this position, but, the extreme of people believe this has lead some into apathy and mere status quo and coasting through their salvation. This runs the risk of christians not living their purpose and destiny for Christ to the fullest extent. It is true that we are to be submitted to Christ, but, sometimes we are caught off guard because we are ignorant of Satan’s devices.
            Let me say this as food for thought.
            I had a friend who was dying from leukemia and right before he died I was very conflicted about praying and believing for him to be healed. This was because many others were saying he is gone and their was no reason to pray. He has to have a miracle from God. This brings up 2 things which is, God’s sovereignty vs. having faith.
            If God tells you to let the situation go, then let it go. Concerning those who believe in God’s sovereignty usually never has faith in God because God is going to do what he wants to do. The other side says if something bad happens to you then, you didn’t have enough faith. These are possibilities but, the scripture says without faith it is impossible to please God. I learned from that experience that God just tells us to be faithful to him whether the answer manifest itself in your time. Abraham never saw the fruition of God’s promise but, he was still faithful and believed in the promise.
            Jesus said, Bless those who have not seen and yet, believe.
            The point is that unless God says, Thus saith the Lord and quit praying, it in not wrong to be faithful. Occupy until he comes. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            USA used to be a christian nation,but many have been changing this,the reason America was so great,was because it helped Israel,but now we are giving millions of dollars to palistinians,even though they are not even a nation,and they want to take over Israel,our gov. is pressuring Israel to divide Jerusalem,a dangerous thing,and USA is having all kinds of trouble because of it. Our new heathcare plan will lead to the mark,also prices are going up and up and up. Britian and allies are no match for China and Russia,unless the might of USA combined.this is no secret, let me add,the antichrist is not going to have a sign around his neck saying ANTICHRIST. the words revealed in the Bible,doesn’t say exactly how that comes about.

          • I wouldn’t disagree with you about America being in history prophetically and the time of Jacob’s trouble is in the 2nd half of the tribulation before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
            The whole thing about Manasseh and Ephraim is that many use this passage to prove the church goes through the tribulation. It is called the two stick theory. Ezekial 37 talks about the dry bones and the two sticks being joined together. This is part of some jewish philosophy as well, as British-Israelism. But, it was Judah and Israel that are backslidden and have to come back to God. Jesus said, the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. He said, Israel was to be the salt of the earth and if the salt has lost its savor it is no good but, to be trodden down. Israel was trodden down and even though they became a nation in 1948, the veil is still over their nation’s eyes. The covenant is with the whole nation. The demise of America will become a part of the new world order. Yes, even now, more than ever, Christ coming is imminent.
            What people have to realize is that Jesus teachings of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God were to the Jews only and not to the church today. It was a message to a nation who was under a blessing and cursing system and who were backslidden specifically, under the Mosaic Law. One must have to understand this first, to understand Israel’s earthy calling concerning the millenial reign. This does not mean the church will have no rule in that kingdom for we will and that is why we are being trained now. God Bless us in fulfilling our calling our purpose and destiny in him. Jerry Kelso

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Jerry

            From your statement, where did He say ISRAEL was to be salt?
            I do see where you could get that understanding, but could you please expound on this belief for me, so I can fully understand just what it is you are saying.

            2) “He said, Israel was to be the salt of the earth and if the salt has lost its savor it is no good but, to be trodden down.”

            These are the only three places, Jesus mentioned salt.

            Mat 5:12,13
            12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
            13) Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

            Mar 9:49,50
            49) For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
            50) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

            Luk 14:33-35
            33) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
            34) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
            35) It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

            Be Blessed

          • Matthew 5:13. Israel has always been trodden under men.
            There is one true church which is always united and then there is the professing church.
            The gates of hell shall never prevail against the church. This was quoted by Jesus about the true church, not the professing church.
            God Bless Jerry Kelso

          • Jim, Let me say one more thing about the context of salt.
            The context of the gospels is direct to the jewish nation and not the church. Many people try to stick the church in this context because
            they believe Jesus taught the new covenant like we have today and
            this is not true. It doesn’t mean that some of the passages they use
            such as Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in 3 days and eat of
            my flesh and drink of my blood and because he was to bring the new
            covenant about, but, these were prophetic. Context has to be
            understood to understand the right literal meaning. Simple hermeneutics which, starts with the historical context, and how God dealt with man and why and understanding the gradual revelation of the redemptive plan of God. And sometimes revelation wasn’t understood automatically, sometimes it took a while. The disciples of Jesus were perfect examples because, Jesus had to expound one last time what was said about him fulfilling the law and the prophets and he said the Holy Spirit would bring to their remembrance as well which on somethings was after Jesus ascended and later.
            Anyway, I hope this helps. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

            Israel as a physical and spiritual nation has been trodden down under men throughout their history by: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome. They will be under persecution once again in the tribulation by the Revised Roman Empire and the Great Whore, the religious system as well as the Antichrist kingdom. Read Daniel 2:32-45; 7:4-27; 8:3-25; Revelation 17 and 18.
            The church is not a physical nation as such as Israel with one geographic land and was never promised to be the head of the nations of the physical earthly kingdom, Israel was and this is what the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God was all about in the gospels.
            The church is the body of Christ with jew and gentile both on the same level with respect to salvation and gender. But, in the fact we are all one there is no jew or gentile in the body of Christ. The church is spiritual salt to the earth. It is not trodden under the feet of men for the gates of hell shall never prevail against it and the true church is always united for Christ is the head and cannot be divided, Praise The Lord!. Those who are in churches who are mere professors are a different story.
            When people understand the gospels in the proper dispensation, proper covenant and the proper time factor according to the proper hermeneutics everything will fall into place and we will begin to say the same thing as Paul said to do in the Corinthian church so we won’t be divided.

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Jerry

            What you have said, is a direct contradiction of what Jesus actually did say.
            Jesus always explained His Parables to the disciples, He never explained them to the people (Nation).
            The Disciples were the ones which formed nucleolus of the future Church (Body of Christ).

            “What people have to realize is that Jesus teachings of the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God were to the Jews only and not to the church today.”

            Mat 13:10,11
            10) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
            11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

            This is why Jesus spoke in Parables.
            Mat 13:34,35
            34) All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
            35) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

            The Jewish Nation had already been judged by God, they would not receive the Kingdom for which they were waiting, it was taken from them and given to the Gentile.
            They will come to Christ as a Nation, only when the Body of Christ is something to be jealous of, but until they do the veil will remain on their eyes, to them the kingdom is not given, until they acknowledge Him as Messiah.
            Eph 4:13
            Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
            Zec 12:10
            And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

            Be Blessed

          • Jim, There is no contradiction but, I believe you are misunderstanding what I am saying.
            1. The whole Bible is for us in the correct manner or proper perspective.
            2. Jesus teachings were under the age of law and was a message for a backslidden nation. This is why he said; Repent for the KoH is at hand. This was a direct message to the jews under the age of the law. Ethical teaching of the sermon on the mount are alright but, if they are taught doctrinally they run the risk of putting people under the spirit of the law.
            There is nothing wrong with being pure in heart and meek etc. But, Jesus said Blessed are those that mourn for they shall be comforted. Mourn means to repent. Israel needed repentance, they were supposed to be meek to inherit the KoH on earth, they were to be pure in heart, etc. If they did these things and were a light to the world and salt of the earth they would be blessed. If they didn’t they would be cursed and trodden down. And you see how in A. D. 70 they were desolated and scattered and without a nation until 1948. And even now, as a nation they are still blinded with the veil over their eyes.
            Yes, it was given to the disciples as far as the mysteries of the KoH. However, the disciples didn’t know how to completely digest all that information. Jesus was pretty plain about the tares and wheats at the end of the world and the sower of the seed. Many of the parables deal with Israel’s rejection. Even the prodigal son is seen by many as Israel’s rejection and reconciliation.
            They did not understand the big picture all at once. Jesus death, burial, and resurrection was still prophetic in its fullest sense in his day. The jew was not saved or in right standing with God in the same exact way that we are today because of gradual revelation. They were saved in the same sense by grace through faith and believing.
            People have to understand the distinctions of the KoH and the KoG according to the Jewish context of the age of law and the millenial kingdom they were promised and still will have at the 2nd coming. It doesn’t mean the church of today will have no part in it, but, it was God’s covenant promise to the jews to be the head of the nation. Read Isaiah 2:2-4, Isaiah 9:6-7.
            People misunderstand Jesus teachings to Israel under law under the 1st Commission. It is true that Jesus did prepare his disciples when more direct things about after he was gone such as matters with the Holy Spirit, when the nation had rejected him. This is why Luke said, he had to expound all that he said according to the law that he was to fulfill.
            Paul never talks to the church as being at the head of the nations in the millenial kingdom. However, Peter, and some of the other disciples before Jesus ascension said, Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel. This was before his ascension, the Day of Pentecost and the vision of the clean and unclean which marked the official time of the body of Christ with Jew and Gentile alike. This proves that the KoH Message and the KoG Message in the Gospels is talking specifically to Israel and was meant for Israel because it was promised by God to their nation and not the Church. And just because they were of the future church, it has no bearing on the church of today of being a direct message and promise to them. They are two different things.
            One must understand the historical and covenant and dispensational aspects before they can say for sure what it means to a later covenant and dispensational people.
            I understand many people believe the KoH and the KoG are interchangeable and can be applied to the church but, it is not quite as clear cut as they think. If you’d like we can have a discussion on that and that would be fine.
            So, in conclusion, there is no contradiction and there is no bearing just because, the jews were the ones that started the Jewish church for the most part on the Day of Pentecost which was under the New Covenant. I believe we have to understand that sometimes people are given information and it takes a while for them to sift through and get the big picture. For example, many people believe Jesus taught the death, burial, and resurrection as a way to salvation as we understand it, but he didn’t. We say they were looking to the cross and we are looking back to the cross. The truth is, that even the disciples did not understand the cross and resurrection until after the fact. Peter said in Matthew that he wasn’t going to let anyone kill his lord and Jesus said, Get behind me Satan, you don’t savor the things of God. He was talking to Satan who was using Peter who was ignorant (lack of Knowledge) about the plan of God to Redeem man. This was after the jewish nation rejected Jesus and just a few days or so before he went to the cross.
            Last, in Matthew 10:6, Jesus said, Go to the lost sheep of Israel only saying, Repent, for the KoH is at hand. It wasn’t merely because they happened to be first with the gospel and then the church was going to follow. The church was never promised to be head of the nations of the millenial kingdom. So this message is not for us directly. Paul said, we were translated in the kingdom of his dear son which is the death, burial, and resurrection, not the earthly kingdom. We will be heavenly people, universal rulers as well as earthly rulers, The earthly rule will be in a different capacity than that of the nation of Israel. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Jerry

            The Elect spoken of in the New Testament, who are they?

            First Jesus speaking about the Elect, then Paul.

            Mat 24:22
            And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

            Rom 11:5
            Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

            Rom 11:7
            What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

            Be Blessed

          • Jim, There are elect angels, elect men, elect nation, elect remnant, and elect in the body of Christ in the new testament.
            1. Specifically, in Matthew 24:22 these elect are basicallytalking about the jews in the days of the abomination of desolation as said by Daniel. This is the time of the middle half of the tribulation known as time of Jacob’s trouble found in Daniel 12:1 and even in Jeremiah. One has to remember this is a time of purging the jewish nation and two thirds will be cut off and one third will come through the fire. Read the end of the 13th chapter of Zechariah.
            2. Romans 11:5 is interesting because Paul was talking about the present being elect which would include today as well because we are still living in the dispensation of grace.
            God has always had a remnant so Israel would continue to exist; ie Isaiah 1:9. If God didn’t have a remnant Israel would have been like Sodom and Gomorrah and we know what happened to them.
            3. Romans 11:7 is giving the difference between Israel as a nation and individuals within the nation who are elect. In the tribulation there will be a remnant preserved in the wilderness for the last 3 and one half years of the tribulation. Revelation 12:1-14. Vs. 15-18 the dragon goes after the remnant of her seed who run and are scattered and will still be alive at the end of the tribulation.
            I’m sorry it takes me a little bit to get back with you but, right now I have to go to starbucks for free wifi and I live out in the country. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • lookinforacity says:

            Hi Jerry

            Don’t worry about any lag in time for your answers, I fully know how it can be at times, “I got the tee shirt”

            I am assuming from your answers, you believe the Elect, to be Jews only, but in your answer.

            You say:
            1. Specifically, in Matthew 24:22 the elect, are basically the Jews in the days of the abomination of desolation.

            So what your saying is, none of the Jews which got saved in the 1st Century Church, would fall into the category of “The Elect”?

            2. Romans 11:5 Paul was talking about the present being elect which would include today as well because we are still living in the dispensation of grace.

            When you say Paul was speaking of the present, ie, (The Jews of the 1st Century Church) and would include the Jews up to today, because of the Dispensation of Grace.
            Doesn’t that then contradict your first statement, because of your belief, the abomination of desolation is a future event in history? “the elect, are basically the Jews in the days of the abomination of desolation.”

            3. Romans 11:7 is giving the difference between Israel as a nation and individuals within the nation who are elect.

            Again, Paul is speaking in the present, about the Elect believers of the first Century Church.
            If what Paul is saying is true, and we have to assume it is, and the elect, are basically the Jews in the days of the abomination of desolation.
            What then is the logical answer to the question, Has the Abomination of Desolation already happened?

            Rom 11:5
            Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
            Rom 11:7
            What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

            In light of your answers, Jesus says:

            Mat 24:14
            And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in (ALL THE WORLD) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

            Then Paul says:

            Rom 10:18
            But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into (ALL THE EARTH), and their words unto (THE ENDS OF THE WORLD).

            1Co 10:11
            Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for (OUR ADMONITION), upon whom (THE ENDS OF THE WORLD) are come.

            1) How would you define (WORLD), as it is used by both Jesus and Paul?
            2) Where were they speaking of geographically?

            Land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: – earth, world.

            When in Rom 11:7 it says.
            What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

            1) What was Israel seeking for which it did not obtain, that the Election did?
            2) Why, and When, was Israel blinded?

            Be Blessed

          • Jim. Elect is used throughout the Bible for all saints and even angels.
            In the context of Matthew 24:22 is prophetic of the abomination of desolation similar to the one that happened in Daniel’s time when Antioch Epiphanes desolated the jewish temple. Jesus had already told the desolation of Israel in verse 2. Verse 22 is talking about the end of the world.
            Matthew was written in the days after Christ, but, not all of it was fulfilled in Jesus day or the early church
            days and today. Christ is talking about the desolation
            of the tribulation which deals with the KoH and not
            the desolation of Israel in A.D. 70. The Catholics
            believe this but, they are wrong for the KoH reign did
            not happen then and is not now. They say the
            Davidic reign has already been inaugurated which is
            not true. They spiritualize the scripture and miss the
            real picture. This also works in their favor for their
            form of replacement theology.

            So there were elect people in the 1st century but, not in this specific context about the end times of the abomination of desolation that deals with the jews. This also does not mean that there will not be gentile elect in the last days for in Revelation 15 they sing the songs of the lamb. This implies gentile believer for the others sing the song of Moses.
            Romans 11:5. Paul understands the his lost brethren and the KoH that was promised to the jewish nation of which he was a part. He also quit preaching to the jews as a whole at the end of the book of Acts because of their stubborness to believe and started preaching to the gentiles. This is why Paul is speaking this way in Romans. This was written in Paul’s day but, the end of the age goes through the church age and the tribulation till the time of the fulness of the gentiles which is at the end of the tribulation when Christ comes back at the battle of Armageddon and takes control of the kingdoms of this world.
            Roman 10:18 has nothing to do with the future
            tribulation. There have been other times that the
            world has been mentioned in scripture. These
            passages are used as a synedoche which means a
            part of the whole. It is like saying the whole world everything you heard yesterday when your world
            might have have been your neighborhood or town,
            etc. and not the whole world in reality. The then known world in Paul’s day was basically the Roman Empire. The fullness of the Gentiles deals with the whole earth literally and because the world system will be together in the forefront. This deals with the New World Order that is waiting in the wings today and will soon come to view and will eventually be headed by the AntiChrist.
            2 Corinthians 3 talks about the nation of Israel being blinded by the reading of the old testament and because they not stand to see the abolishment of the law. The whole nation has to be in obedience with Christ before they can rule and reign with him. The bulk of the nation in Paul’s days did not do this and that is why they were destroyed in A. D. 70. The KoH reign has never been established and will not until Christ comes back again. When Jesus was asked the question by the disciples in Acts 1:6-7; Jesus told them the restoration of the kingdom was not known by anyone but the Father and they were not to be concerned with it at that particular time.
            Israel was blinded when they rejected Jesus message of the KoH and the KoG. Matthew 23:37-39.
            The age of Grace started officially at Calvary which was the time of the reformation. Hebrews 9:10.
            Grace of the death, burial and resurrection which is the only gospel Paul said; (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), was given to jews in the early church but, the nation as a whole will not receive salvation until the end of the tribulation. Hebrews 8:1-13. This is what many Jews and Catholics misunderstand. Christ 1st coming was as the suffering Messiah; Isaiah 53. The 2nd Coming will be as the Conquering King of King and Lord of Lords Revelation 19. This did not happen at 70 A.D.
            So their is no contradiction when one understands the big picture according to the proper context and time factors. God Bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            The law for the Jew and the Gentile is written in the hearts of the forgiven,the law was not complete,so a better way was made by Christ,no more Jew or Gentile on children of God, READ HEBREWS. Jesus said its not what goes into the belly that defiles,its what comes out of the heart,and out of the heart the mouth speaks.

          • HolyRoller,
            That is why Hebrews was written; so the Jews would understand the difference between the old and new covenants and specifically why the old covenant was not complete.
            The rift and misunderstanding between jewish and gentile believers are due to their living as a jew; rituals etc.. Salvation was never through the keeping of the law and that is a known fact on both sides. The whole law being abolished vs. just the self righteous works abolished only is the argument.
            Many of the whole law being abolished assume it means that the law cannot be lived at all in any way. That is why the Jews get offended. Gentile believers need to understand that though the law was totally abolished according to the Mosaic Ethic the Jews can still live the law under the New Covenant and still be Jews and not be doing anything wrong before God.
            The jewish believers need to understand that there is no more proselyting gentiles into Judaism.
            These are extremes in both communities not committed by every single jew or gentile believers, because some understand the difference.
            Paul said the church has no jews or gentiles in the body because, we are on the same level to come to Christ; even though the body consists of Jew and Gentile people.
            I am glad we agree because there is one true body of Christ that is united in perfect harmony.
            God bless! Jerry Kelso

          • Holyroller_11 says:

            I’m glad we agree also,it is very easy to find a confrontation these days,thanks

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